350x Issues (Saga III)

[ps2fixer]

Nice, I have an oscilloscope now and such and understand electronics a bit more than back then, but I don't think I said anything completely wrong there lol. Defo interesting comparing OEM parts that are known good working vs alternative parts even if it's OEM from a different model.

[patriot1]

Switch and connections-no cdi connected.




Stator and flywheel don't match-please confirm?



Does my shifting mechanism look correct?



shout out to the "yellow side"

CDI's and brackets ordered.

[patriot1]

Mistake!

Stator and flywheel do match according to PS2's pictures!

[ps2fixer]

Ah yea, stator and flywheel looks to be matching. Had it backwards at first, that's what I get for going off memory lol.

Also, big wtf on the 3 pin connector in your 2nd pic, it's showing green (ground) is connecting to the power wire, one of the harnesses has the wrong wire color (hopefully) or actually made incorrectly. Those wires should be matching colors on both sides! I pulled up pics of the main harnesses I used to reproduce and it looks like the main harness connector/pinout is correct, so going to call the handle bar controls probably Chinese aftermarket crap (they are terrible about making things good, been through China parts for 9 or so years some of the worst stuff I've ever messed with). I'd take it apart and check what kind of switches are in it, the kill switch on the ones I've seen before are a typical slide switch, no grease, weather proofing, etc. I'd expect it to not last long if that's the design, used OEM won't look as nice but function for longer in most cases. Once in a while I get into modifying OEM parts for out of production parts, they aren't cheap but it's the real deal Honda parts. Not trying to shill my products though lol, my main market is demo derby cars now, but the derby season is pretty slow now so probably going to make some atv related parts through the winter.

Shifter looks typical to me, you can dry shift the engine, but you'll have to rotate the crank some to get it to go through all the gears (it's designed to shift while running, but can be done by hand).

[patriot1]

Thanks for the eagle eye and insight. I have the OEM. switch (I think)

How in the LLLLLL did it ever run at all with the ground connected. to the power?

Hopefully the cheap Chinese CDI's will work well enough to get spark and at least start the engine-we'll soon see.

[ps2fixer]

Well the lighting coil and the exciter coil are two different power sources, the exciter coil's only job is to power the CDI. I hope it's just the colors were mixed up, on the handle bar controls, but that gives you a solid indication of the quality, they can't even get the colors in the right order lol.

I think the Chinese CDI's were really hit and miss, CDI's aren't really a one fits all type of thing, they are balanced between the exciter coil's output capacity and also matched to the ignition coil's design, it's still a very analog system from back then unlike car coils were basically they all function exactly the same. On top of that, the actual output has different ignition timing based on the engine design, pulse generator location, how many times it's triggered per engine fire (crank based it fires 2x as often vs a cam based trigger which throws off the rpm/spark advancement curve if it's not a matching design). Of course that kind of info isn't published for basically any CDI which is why it's such a guess and chekc type of thing and factory specs.

A little more technical on how the CDI's work, the advancement system is a pretty simple concept, you can't predict the future, so the pulse generator is clocked at the max advancement location, say for easy figuring 20 degrees BTDC. If the CDI wants to have an idle rpm of 10 degrees advancement (pretty typical number from memory), it takes the signal from 20 deg + the rpm and delays that signal until it would be 10 deg then fire the coil. The wider the range of the ignition timing, the more fancy the CDI is. The cheapest of the cheap has zero advancement, so those would make the engine run at 20 degrees at idle and floored which is a common design for the Chinese CDI's and some early Honda's used that design with a physical advancement mechanism like on an ATC200ES which uses springs and weights, similar to a points distributor for a car.

[BOB MARLIN]

Just to clarify my statement on the fly wheels for future reference for anyone. If you have ever had to deal with the Goki starter kits you will discover that the 86 fly wheel is closer to the centerline of the engine than the 85. The starter gear for the Goki will either bind or miss the ring gear because of it if you have the wrong Goki kit. If the taper on the cranks are the same, than the taper on the fly wheel is in a different location . The stator has to match the fly wheal you are using. The 86 fly wheel will fit over an 85 stator but have a weak spark because there is too much of a gap. The 85 will not fit over an 86 stator. I believe you can swap fly wheel / stator combo between the two years, but they have to be a matched combo.

[ps2fixer]

Just to clarify my statement on the fly wheels for future reference for anyone. If you have ever had to deal with the Goki starter kits you will discover that the 86 fly wheel is closer to the centerline of the engine than the 85. The starter gear for the Goki will either bind or miss the ring gear because of it if you have the wrong Goki kit. If the taper on the cranks are the same, than the taper on the fly wheel is in a different location . The stator has to match the fly wheal you are using. The 86 fly wheel will fit over an 85 stator but have a weak spark because there is too much of a gap. The 85 will not fit over an 86 stator. I believe you can swap fly wheel / stator combo between the two years, but they have to be a matched combo.

That is correct, the actual flywheel is a different offset which changes the ending location of the ring gear for the goki kits. The actual stator diameter is also slightly different so needs to pair with the correct flywheel, but of my understanding the outside measurement is the same for the flywheel (same ring gear for both). The side cover is where they make up the difference for the goki kits. I started a Goki group on Facebook and worked with some people there to work those details out. So on the Goki side, a person would need the matching goki side cover, flywheel, and stator, but as a set, they can be swapped to the opposite style as well.

Looks like facebook changed the url for the image, so I guess I'll download it and reupload here so it stops disappearing. The image is actually from a post in the Goki group. Looking down the starter hole, you can see the offset change, the one that looks "normal" is an 85, the orig design, and the 86 is the modified mold design so you see more machine work in that area.

[patriot1]

Small update:

Replaced China switch with OEM.

Confirmed stator and flywheel go together

Installed the missing TWO motor mounts-so engine should be grounded to the frame.

Got the Chinese CDIs in the mail this evening, plugged one in and checked for spark-We have spark.

I will see if it runs without crashing the CDI tomorrow (hopefully)

I still need to address the copper washer situation.

[ATC King]

Replaced China switch with OEM.

For future reference, the cheap switches aren't necessarily bad they just may not have the wires correctly placed in the connector. It's easy to release them and reinstall in the correct place. It may take a little work to find out exactly which wire is which though, even if they're the same as OE colors it doesn't mean the color is correct for the function.

I don't ever install an aftermarket switch without first testing it, which takes less time than repairing wiring that gets burned. That means even if it came with a diagram, I verify it.

The functional gripe I have with aftermarket/Chinese switches is they're typically not as durable as OEM and the switch detent is often vague/weak, which makes them difficult to use while wearing gloves, and in rough conditions the switches may move on their own.

[ps2fixer]

To add to that, their wire quality is horrible, generally really thick insulation so it looks like ok wire, but very little copper, Very bad for lighting circuits if you're pushing higher draw bulbs for example for machines with a battery.

They tend to use quite low quality switches, contacts are typically steel with a thin coating of brass. They very rarely are greased or lubricated in any way and that's also a corrosion preventer. I've only been in 1000's of Chinese switches (ignition switches and the handle bar controls, kill switches, tethers, etc). I used to modify them to remove as much "China" out of them as possible, helps a bit but for the time and effort, better off just modifying an OEM switch, at that point it's only weakness is the skill of the person that modifies the wiring/connectors to make it match the machine. I'd take old OEM used switches over new Chinese (not modified) any day even if they are ugly, they tend to be pretty easy to fix up as long as the housing or switches aren't busted. Some of the internal parts interchange with the new ones, but they did change the design slightly for some things, I know some people are all about 100% perfect OEM matching, so was looking into how hard it would be to "rebuild" old switches with good housings but bad switches/wiring. Best I found is basically combine 2 or so into one if that's the end goal. Most people seem to not care too much though, they just want functional switches.

[patriot1]

Thanks guys, I hopefully have a good OEM switch on it now.

So, I tried to start it today-I was excited-I thought I had it figured out...

I had spark, I added fuel-nothing, not even a pop. I sprayed ether and changed plugs-absolutely nothing.

Then I read and researched and found out that a 400ex CDI only works with an 86 flywheel and stator and I have 85s....

Like James Evans said, "DAMN DAMN DAMN!!!"

I could order Mikes or Ricks or even try one of the good ones on a running bike but Im afraid. that I might ruin it too, so back to eBay for now.

Stay tuned-I'll be back

[patriot1]

Curiosity got the cat and I gambled...

I ordered a CDI from Rick's-Mike's was out of stock. It should be here in a. week.

I took a known good CDI off a running bike and plugged it in.

Pulled the choke up

First kick...BANG!! Started and ran like David Muir at a Trump rally!!

Let it run awhile and killed it with the switch-started it right back up.

Repeated this about 5 times

Hopefully, that problem is fixed.

Thanks for the help guys

Now on to the rest of the bike.

[350for350]

Boy I know that you must have about been at your wit's end trying to figure this one out.

[patriot1]

I learned a lot 350-for sure