1984 200S Ignition Issues, No Spark

[Scotty76]

Ok, here we go. 84 200S, Absolutely no spark. I think the guy before me gave up.
Engine case to frame, grounded.
Coil and spark plug wire has continuity and proper ohms, newer. I cut new ends just to be sure it was perfect.
All the engine grounds were cut and re-attached to bolt holding coil.
Added new ignition stator, cdi box looks newer, coil newer, new plug, new cdi pulse unit....
Rebuilt pull starter so that is perfect.
Ground to coil is good.
Have good ohms from black/red out of stator, 245 ohms I believe.

Voltage is my issue.


Can someone please give me a fast list of things to go over? Excited to here this thing go!

Thanks!!
https://www.instagram.com/p/B2FBuG8FT16/

[Gabriel]

Have you pulled the pulse rotor cover, cleaned the contact surfaces and set the gap? If the previous owner put the rotor in 180 degrees out......... It's also good time to check the advance springs too. If they're weak or broke, get new ones.

[ps2fixer]

Are you 100% sure it's no spark as in you physically put the spark plug against the head and had no spark at all, or are you basing no spark on the that you're not getting a fire, huge difference there. Assuming no spark, you have a lot of variables that could be a factor that was blindly changed/modified.

Do you have the OEM CDI box? It should have CF433 marked on it, if the marking is different check the link below what the CDI is from. If there's no markings, it's likely aftermarket/generic and you might want to get an OEM/known good unit to test with. If you have friends with 84-85 era machines I can look up the pin out to see if they interchange (just for the spark test, the timing map is different per model)

http://atvmanual.com/honda/honda-cdi-identification


Let's go over things a little, unplug the CDI connector and test the Green wire to Black wire, if you have connection, your kill switch is bad, switched to off, or the wiring hooked up wrong

Following the power/signal sources, you can test these at the CDI connector to be sure the wiring is good between the component and the CDI.

Check exciter coil ohms (you could test voltage but you need a peak voltage tester). Black -> Green = 150-400ohms
check pickup coil/pulse generator. blue/yellow -> green = 20-30 ohms
check ignition coil primary coil. black/yellow -> green = 0.16-4 ohms (reading a tiny bit higher at the CDI connector is fine since it's extra wire length not accounted for in the spec). Also if you have a cheap meter, it might not be able to get accurate readings at such a low ohms, pretty simple test is to touch the two test probes together, you should see 0.0 ohms or very close. The cheap meters I've tested read 4-30+ ohms before cleaning up the tips/contacts.
check ignition coil secondary coil (at the coil for this one). coil ground/green wire to spark plug boot. Should read somewhere around 8-10k ohms (10,000 ohms) with the spark plug cap on the wire, or around 3-5k ohms with it off.

If all tests good and if you did the tests at the CDI connector, the critical wiring is good enough to get in spec readings, then I'd be putting the blame on one or more of the parts added into the mix or the pulse generator gap.

Anyway, there's not a whole lot that goes on in these machines. You can completely ignore the lighting system as it has no effect on the ignition system. Here's a wire diagram for a reference too.

Good luck with the troubleshooting, lot of new/replace parts so hopefully it's something easy to spot.



If you do in fact have spark but the engine doesn't pop/fire, then it's more related to timing, carb/fuel/air, or like a physical issue like valves or worn rings (low compression).

Hopefully this gets you steered in the right direction to figuring out the problem.

[350for350]

Are you sure that the CDI box is good? I've bought cheap ones and they were no good from the time that I hooked them up. Another thing about checking spark is that sometimes it can look like there's no spark in the sunlight while there is spark and you just can't see it. My 85 250ES pulled that one on me. I was about to completely give up on it until I happened to check the spark in a shadow. I could see a faint spark. I put it back together and it runs fine.

[Snazzy93]

+1 on the cdi box. A few years ago I chased a no spark issue on a 200x for about a week every day after work. The first thing I replaced was the cdi box with a cheap aftermarket one. Finally I got one from a buddy off a 185, and it fired first kick. I'll never buy anything but oem cdi parts again.

If everything mentioned above tests ok, make sure there's continuity through the plug wire. I've also seen them go bad. That's a rare one, but it happens, and I'm guilty myself of not thinking about it.

[Scotty76]

Have you pulled the pulse rotor cover, cleaned the contact surfaces and set the gap? If the previous owner put the rotor in 180 degrees out......... It's also good time to check the advance springs too. If they're weak or broke, get new ones.

I unscrewed the old sensor (ring with black box and wires) and installed the new.
I didn't see anything that looked like it was adjustable.
I did notice I could grab the rotor and it slide back and forth a bit.

[Scotty76]

Appreciate the help on this!
The CDI box, coil, plug wire , pulse sensor all aftermarket replacements.

A bad CDI box might explain why everything falls apart there. I thought the pin connector was bad, but the box is more likely.
I purchased a used but original unit on on EBay this morning.
Tested kill switch, it works.
Exciter coil (I replaced) 250 ohms.
I will pause here and report back once I have made my way through the balance.
Thanks for the info.

[Snazzy93]

The rotor will have a little play counter clockwise. It should feel spring loaded. That's for the timing advance. The cdi system on these trikes works almost identical to older dristubited ignition systems on vehicles. (Chevys HEI if you're familiar.)

Simply put, the stator creates a charge that is stored in the cdi box. The pulse generator (the thing that acts like a distributor almost, located on the cylinder head,) is basically a timing device. It tells the cdi box when to release it's stored charge to the coil, the coil does it's thing, and sends the charge to the plug, and boom. Internal combustion.

The adjustment in the pulse generator comes from the outer ring. There are 2 screws that hold it in place. It should move to the left and right about a quarter turn.

To set this, make sure the engine is at TDC, the little black box, and the rotor both have lines on them. Line the lines up with eachother, tighten the outer rings down, and you should be good to go. I've never had to adjust timing on any stock honda I've ever worked on.

[blownbayou]

I chased the hell out of my voltage issue.... It was the CDI

[Scotty76]

Ok, update.
I pulled out my test-light this time to mix things up vs. the meter.
Checked the Black/Red - from magneto, lights up very bright.
Tested it again at the socket on the female connector, full light (to make sure the connector pin was connected, long shot).
Plugged connector into new/used cdi module.
Tested the yellow/black immediately after so I know I still had ground and NO LIGHT.
THEN!!! I re-read ps2fixer's post. Printed it out, started at the top. "Let's go over things a little, unplug the CDI connector and test the Green wire to Black wire, if you have connection, your kill switch is bad, switched to off, or the wiring hooked up wrong".

Well, the SOB before me wired the switch backwards. Open circuit when in RUN!!! The meter was singing and I am like, that aint cool!
Placed in Off, through the plug into the socket and BINGO, glorious spark!!

Tried to start it but I broke the gas-line in my zeal. Will hit the store tonight and get this thing rolling in the AM.

Thanks to all, hopefully, this post saves somebody some aggravation!!

[ironchop]

Glad to hear you got it sorted out

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[ps2fixer]

Is the kill switch some rigged up thing, or a Honda OEM looking part? Newer quad kill switches are shorted in run (the CDI power runs through the switch), the old machines short out for off which effectively shorts the power supply to ground.

It could be possible the CDI is from a newer machine, maybe like an XL200 or something. I didn't look up a wire diagram, but most newer machines like 1990+ require the kill switch to work backwards.

Does your handle bar switches look like the link below? That's the switches I mod, but they all look really similar for the newer ones.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/202645543294

Here's a link to a stock unit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/323920699690

[Scotty76]

Ok, I celebrated too soon. Changed nothing last night, this afternoon put a new full line in and tried to start, NO SPARK!
The kill switch is stock. I get a circuit from the black wire when the switch is to OFF, breaks the circuit when switched to RUN, at the black wire on the CDI Connector. The switch will not swing left, it only goes center and right, must be old.

CDI is marked CF433.

Here are my OHM readings....

xxxxxxxx

Check exciter coil ohms (you could test voltage but you need a peak voltage tester). Black -> Green = 150-400ohms 262 OHMS
check pickup coil/pulse generator. blue/yellow -> green = 20-30 ohms 35.5 OHMS
check ignition coil primary coil. black/yellow -> green = 0.16-4 ohms 10 OHMS (reading a tiny bit higher at the CDI connector is fine since it's extra wire length not accounted for in the spec). Also if you have a cheap meter, it might not be able to get accurate readings at such a low ohms, pretty simple test is to touch the two test probes together, you should see 0.0 ohms or very close. The cheap meters I've tested read 4-30+ ohms 3 OHMS before cleaning up the tips/contacts.
check ignition coil secondary coil (at the coil for this one). coil ground/green wire to spark plug boot. Should read somewhere around 8-10k ohms (10,000 ohms) with the spark plug cap on the wire, or around 3-5k ohms with it off. 7.59K OHMS with Cap On

What say you Sir? Thinking that switch is shot, how do we take out of the equation for testing purposes? Also need a way to shut it off too!!
PS I would buy your switch if in-stock, let me know, glad to give you the business!

[ironchop]

Ok, I celebrated too soon. Changed nothing last night, this afternoon put a new full line in and tried to start, NO SPARK!
The kill switch is stock. I get a circuit from the black wire when the switch is to OFF, breaks the circuit when switched to RUN, at the black wire on the CDI Connector. The switch will not swing left, it only goes center and right, must be old.

CDI is marked CF433.

Here are my OHM readings....

xxxxxxxx

Check exciter coil ohms (you could test voltage but you need a peak voltage tester). Black -> Green = 150-400ohms 262 OHMS
check pickup coil/pulse generator. blue/yellow -> green = 20-30 ohms 35.5 OHMS
check ignition coil primary coil. black/yellow -> green = 0.16-4 ohms 10 OHMS (reading a tiny bit higher at the CDI connector is fine since it's extra wire length not accounted for in the spec). Also if you have a cheap meter, it might not be able to get accurate readings at such a low ohms, pretty simple test is to touch the two test probes together, you should see 0.0 ohms or very close. The cheap meters I've tested read 4-30+ ohms 3 OHMS before cleaning up the tips/contacts.
check ignition coil secondary coil (at the coil for this one). coil ground/green wire to spark plug boot. Should read somewhere around 8-10k ohms (10,000 ohms) with the spark plug cap on the wire, or around 3-5k ohms with it off. 7.59K OHMS with Cap On

What say you Sir? Thinking that switch is shot, how do we take out of the equation for testing purposes? Also need a way to shut it off too!!
PS I would buy your switch if in-stock, let me know, glad to give you the business!

The switch merely shorts out the black power supply wire to the green common ground wire in the harness so I'm pretty sure, you can just unhook the switch from the harness and you should still get spark.

When you need to shut it off without a kill switch and you don't feel like getting bitten trying to unhook the plug wire, I just pull the choke up and stall the motor that way

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[ps2fixer]

What do you mean a circuit? Like your meter is in beep mode and it beeps? If so that's normal, off = shorted between green and black/white, you want those wires NOT shorted together for run.

I have the source switches on hand, just behind on things and having kept up on stock. I'll be sure the next one I make is that model though (currently make 6 versions).

Ohm readings seem pretty normal, couple high ones, but I'm guessing it's a cheap meter, like one of those $5 special ebay meters from China. You can't fix them being inaccurate, but I've sanded mine down with 400grit paper for the two contacts per probe and readings became much more stable and I could get accurate low readings subtracting the probe to probe ohm test value from the test. In your case that would be 3 ohms from 10 for the ignition coil, but 7 is still higher than expected, same with the pickup coil, 32.5 and it should be upto 30. Guessing it's probably 5-10 ohms too high on those readings, not common for two parts to fail at once, and the readings are so close to spec I doubt they are bad, atleast with out heat playing a factor.

Anyway, you had spark at one point, worst case you could disconnect the handle bar controls to remove the kill switch from the circuit, no connection is normal for run. Sadly not really a great way to kill the engine like this though. If it fires up, could always just hook up the handle bar controls again (black & green wires). Unless you have a poor connection somewhere, or a connector isn't pushed together all the way, I suspect it might be related to the kill switch.

Also what kind of condition is your harness in? The rubber insulators should be pretty soft yet, none of the female terminals exposed to short out, and the wiring shouldn't be stiff/rock hard or have cracks/bare wire. Not really trying to market my products or anything, but if you need a harness I can add you to the request list, I'm behind on them though .

It's best to change 1 variable at a time so we don't get compounded issues. Like get your current setup to spark again, and mess around with a couple connectors and retest, or fiddle with the kill switch etc and see what the common factor is when it gains/looses spark.