1986 200X Running Rich - Added Link to Pictures

[FourtyCaliber]

Hey all. Newbie here. What a great site. I stumbled across it while Googling for 200X carburetor problems. Anyway, a Hi to everyone here.

I've got a clean, all stock 1986 Honda 200X. I bought it about 7 years ago and only rode it for a couple years. It always ran, but not right. It's been sitting for the past 5 years up until now. Now I'm working on it. When I parked it, the one thing I did do is completely fill the gas tank all the way up as far as I could. There is absolutely zero rust in the tank.

So, I just took the tank off and drained it. I cleaned it out with freash gas. I removed and cleaned the strainer and the petcock screen. It has good gas flow. I ripped the carb apart and soaked for a day. Ran wires through all the ports. Soaked the jets. They're all clean, side ports and bore. The slow jet was plugged up, but got it cleaned real good. Waiting on a new air filter right now. The old one disintegrated. I also changed the tranny oil. And I set the valves and then the decompress cable. All that is good to go. That carb is so clean I would fill it with ice cream and then eat it. Actually, I'd fill a lot of things with ice cream and eat it but that's a different story.

Anyway, it's running rich. At first I thought it was just at low speed, but I did 3 plug chops with brand new NGK DR8ES-L plugs, and they all come out sooty the entire length of the core nose. I raised the clip on the needle to the top slot and still the same. It was on the 3rd slot (factory). And this is with no real air filter. I did put the air filter metal "cage" back on to restrict it a little. Checked cylinder compression and its about 170 psi on my guage.

The jets in the carb are the stock #35 for the low speed and #112 for the main. I replaced the mixture screw o-ring with new (flattened) and replaced the micro washer that was missing.

To me, it runs better than OK from mid range to high. But putting around with minimal throttle in 1st gear and it's sort of "doggy". Now the plug tells another story all together for all the ranges.

This trike will continue to run even if I completely screw in the mixture screw. If I screw it out too much it runs like crap. A half a turn out is about MAX or it starts running like crap.

That's whats bothering the heck out of me. It seems like it needs more air but when I try to give it more air by opening up the mixture screw, it runs like crap. The spark seems ok to me, but I admit I'm not as good with the electrical as with the mechanics.

Does anyone have any ideas? Should I go down on the jets? If so, how much? I'm at about sea level, too.

Thanks for any help and its very appreciated.

[Dirtcrasher]

Hey bud, welcome aboard!!

I must say it's nice and REFRESHING to read a new members post that seems to have done his/her homework

It's stock, so why rich?? If you said lean, I'd have some ideas. Hmmm...... It's not electrical, I don't believe anyhow. But, could an insufficient spark cause the fuel to not burn 100% and leave unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber??

Sounds like it's not getting enough air. No mice homes in the air box?? (New filter coming you said...)

If you remove the air box lid, is there any affect, it should lean it out but again stock shouldn't require it. No exhaust change right? No chance that silencer is plugged up with carbon? the stock ones have a plate you can remove to clean....

Stock is stock and stock jets are just fine without mods.

The airscrew definitely ought to change the idle and throttle response. Is the installed order screw, spring, washer, o-ring??

If the airscrew does nothing, the tip could be corroded or flat, o-ring shot or the pilot isn't spotless.

I know you said spotless like ice cream off Carmen Electras' goodies but did you UNSCREW and REMOVE every jet and clean it? (I'm just double checking!!) The pilot has numerous holes on it's sides that only get cleaned right if you remove it completely and look at it thru light. Soaking carbs really has no benefit unless every jet is removed and even the "needle jet holder"

Sounds like you did clean it correctly though...... Is this one of the carbs with the rubber plug on top and the slow jet on the side? Is that plug there?

Keep posting, and lets seem some PICS beyatch!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT - ANY chance the jets were compromised? IE drilled out?? Honestly, You seem to have done ALL the right things and I didn't pay enough attention to the details of your post when I first replied. Does the topend sound good? no ticks? I wonder if the cam is worn excessively? I'm kinda stumped here........

[Erics350x]

^^ Like DC said, its nice to see a newbie post a fair amount of info from prior research.

I'd start by removing the pilot jet again and cleaning or replacing it. I'd also replace the spark plug and gap it to stock specs. Set the mixture screw and slide needle clip to stock specs.

[FourtyCaliber]

Hey DC and Eric. Thanks for the replies and the welcome. I have tried to do my homework. I know a fair amount about bikes, but all of the SPECIFICS I have learned from THIS site. I must have read 500 posts on carbs and jetting and adjustments in the last few days before I even registered. I figured that any problems I am having must have already been covered a time or two and instead of asking the same old things again, I should just read through the posts first and see if there's an answer already there.

To answer some of DC's questions:

"Sounds like it's not getting enough air. No mice homes in the air box?? (New filter coming you said...)"

The air box was thoroughly washed with engine degreaser and soap and water after that when I took it out. It's clean. Filter on the way. Had to order it. Right now, running without the filter and no airbox lid.

"If you remove the air box lid, is there any affect, it should lean it out but again stock shouldn't require it. No exhaust change right? No chance that silencer is plugged up with carbon? the stock ones have a plate you can remove to clean...."

It's still running rich even without the air filter or the lid in place. Stock motor. Stock exhaust. Stock jetting (#35 & #112). I'm going to have to check the silencer out and get back to you on that one. Thanks for the tip about the plate for cleaning access.

"The airscrew definitely ought to change the idle and throttle response. Is the installed order screw, spring, washer, o-ring??"

I would think so, too. It does to an extent. The order is right: screw, spring, washer, and o-ring. The o-ring is NEW and so is the washer (it didn't have a washer in it when I ripped it apart). What's really boggling my mind is that the spark plugs show running rich at all speeds (indicating it needs more air), but screwing out the air screw makes it run crappier. That screw seems to want to be set at about a half turn from the fully closed position. I don't get it.

"I know you said spotless like ice cream off Carmen Electras' goodies but did you UNSCREW and REMOVE every jet and clean it? (I'm just double checking!!) The pilot has numerous holes on it's sides that only get cleaned right if you remove it completely and look at it thru light. Soaking carbs really has no benefit unless every jet is removed and even the "needle jet holder""

Yup, just like ice cream in Carmen Electra's goodies. All the jets were removed and soaked. All the holes in the sides are open. Held up to the light and light shows through. Ran a wire through them. Removed and soaked the needle jet holder, too. Like I said, the pilot was blocked up. I couldn't "pop" the blockage out. I tried. I had to "hand" run a drill bit through it to open it up. The bit was smaller than the bore of the jet. When I got most of the blockage out, I soaked it again and squirted carb cleaner through it numerous times. I took one of those wire cleaners with the barbs on them used for cleaning the tips of an oxy/acetelyne torch tip and ran it down the bore a few times to get the varnish of the sides of the bore of the jet.

"Sounds like you did clean it correctly though...... Is this one of the carbs with the rubber plug on top and the slow jet on the side? Is that plug there?"

Is it supposed to have one of those "rubber plugs"? There isn't any in there anywhere. I downloaded the service manual and I'm looking at the blow up of the carb right now. I don't see any reference to a rubber cap. But I don't know.

"EDIT - ANY chance the jets were compromised? IE drilled out?? Honestly, You seem to have done ALL the right things and I didn't pay enough attention to the details of your post when I first replied. Does the topend sound good? no ticks? I wonder if the cam is worn excessively? I'm kinda stumped here........ "

I don't know if the jets were ever drilled out. I was pretty careful when I cleaned the blockage from the low speed jet. As far as the top end, it had a tick until I adjusted the valves. They were both off about a full notch. It's quiet now.

In response to Eric:

I just ran 3 brand new NGK plugs through plug chops. All 3 I gapped to specs and all 3 came out sooty black after one run at WOT in 5th gear (that's as far as I could get in my alley). Right now I have the clip on the needle at the very top groove. I ran 2 chops with it set at the 2nd from top groove. The 3rd chop I put it on the top groove. That's restricting the fuel as much as I can with the adjustments available to me. If I put it back on the 3rd groove, which is specs, (and I had it there for a long time), it's worse. The plug turns black and it's smokey. By putting it on the top groove, 90% of the smoke is gone, but the plug is still black. Not oily. It's dry, sooty black.

My new questions are how do I check the CDI? Or the coil? Is there some kind of electrical measurement I can take on each of these with a multimeter? Is there some kind of adjustment I can make on them? And how do I clean the carbon from the silencer? I've never found anything that removes that nasty carbon.

And here's my other rambling thought. Has anyone EVER had a spark plug on a STOCK Honda 4-stroker, produce that desired light tannish brown color after doing a plug chop? Where I'm going with this is I wonder if Honda deliberately tunes and jets ALL of their motors towards the "rich" side. For their own protection. Even though all of these off road vehicles are sold with "no warranty" when new, it seems that Honda wouldn't want a giant backlash from angry owners who destroyed their machines from running in a too lean condition. Would they? I mean rich just fouls plugs. Lean puts holes in pistons. It just seems their engineers would be inclined to design slightly on the rich side. Just a thought.

And when I put that new air filter on this trike, doesn't that mean that it will run even "more rich" because of the increased restriction?

I'll get a picture up soon of the trike. I'll get one of the 3rd plug chop I ran, too. That was the one I ran without the lid on the airbox (no filter, don't have one yet), and the clip on the top (#1) groove of the needle. In other words, as lean as I could make it, and it's STILL black.

Thanks for all the help thus far. I'll get the pics today later. My air filter should be in today, too.

[MonroeMike]

Welcome to the board.

This may sound like a silly question, but are you sure your choke is opening all the way?

[Erics350x]

Maybe the needle is worn? When you say you are doing plug chops, are you cutting them back to see the bottom of the ceramic? The outter part of the plug being black is perfectly normal.

[FourtyCaliber]

Hi Mike and thanks for the welcome. I don't think that's a silly question. I did check that. When the choke lever is all the way off, the flat sides of the butterfly are parallel(sp) with the bore of the carb. The 2 screws that hold it in are tight. I checked it for operation when I had the carb apart.

All I can come up with is weak ignition or too large of jets to start with. It starts first or second kick with the choke on. It then idles high, like it should. I have been letting it warm for maybe 30 seconds or so and then I turn the choke to half way for another 30 seconds and then to completely off. The idle comes down and it will idle for a while. After about 10 minutes of just idling, it will sometimes die. I have unscrewed the drain plug after it dies and the bowl appears to be full of gas. I checked the float height and its right on the money at .55 inch. I don't know where to go. I might pick up a couple smaller size jets when I go to get the air filter.

As far as the plug chops (Erics350X).................no not cutting the shell thread away. But the core nose is pretty short and with head magnifiers I can see all the way to the bottom clearly. It's black all the way down. Pictures are coming. I'm stupid in this regard, but I'm still trying to figure out how to post pictures.

[FourtyCaliber]

I'm trying the pictures now. I've looked for rules on picture sizing, but couldn't find anything definitive. I can't figure out how to post an actual image in the post so here is a link to photobucket with 4 pictures. One is of the 200X itself. One is of the end of the mixture screw. One is of the point on the needle. And the last one is of the #3 plug chop that I ran last at WOT in 5th gear with no airbox cover and no air filter. If the pictures aren't any good let me know. I am NO photog.

http://s675.photobucket.com/albums/v...%20ATC%20200X/

[250rs-neva-die]

thats a very clean unmolested x very nice

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Oooooh, that looks very nice and very stock I likey!!

Usually if you right click "copy" the bottom link or "IMG code" then "paste" the full size IMG code in your post the pic shows up and thats no issue with 3WW rules on sizes.......

Maybe it's the pic, but the carb slide "throttle valve" needle looked a bit odd to me?? Might just be the pic though.

Does your camera have a close up feature??

Bud, your in Ohio, we have SO many members from Ohio that are both intelligent, plentiful and helpful. Don't be afraid to throw out a post and see's who'd local to you, 2 heads are always better than one

I think 3WW ought to start something of a "buddy technician" where some of the more experienced members that have done extensive work in the given problem area are willing to help out other local members. ESPECIALLY people that read, listen, do there homework and TRY things themselves first! I have ALLOT of respect for people that at least try, instead of "Fark it, I'm parting it out or selling it!!".

Unfortunately most guys want instant answers and have no manual or clue as to what they're doing..... I think the biggest problem we have with trikes is almost anyone can afford them. There old, people are afraid of them or don't like them and sell them very cheap. The bad part is we end up with members that don't even try to help themselves; Tis not your case though my friend

EDIT - The other thing I should have said is that I'm sure you know that without a filter and lid you can't even begin to tune a stock motor. I look forward to you getting that filter!

This was my plug with a .066 diameter main jet in a 28MM Mikuni flatside but I have a TON of mods on my 86 It ran super with that jet and race gas.....

[FourtyCaliber]

Thanks. I bought it about 7 years ago because it was so clean. It's not perfect. There's a little rust here and there. A few scratches. But it's solid. The inside of the tank was and is still immaculate. I'm seriously thinking about creaming it before it does start to rust.

DC posted: "Maybe it's the pic, but the carb slide "throttle valve" looked a bit odd to me."

I'm not sure I get what you mean? I know my pics aren't the greatest. I had the camera on the macro function but still had trouble focusing in on the points. The mixture screw is a little flattened at the end. Maybe someone can explain this to me, but I don't see how that affects anything. If it's all the way closed, the "point" of the screw just sticks up into the bore anyway. I really don't get that. If I run my finger up the side of the taper towards the point, I think I can feel a slght burr. But like I said I don't get how that would affect anything. Someone, please explain it to me.

The needle has a point, somewhat, but not sharp. I can't see what I would call any real damage to it. I have a 20X magnifying headset I wear and I've inspected all the jets, needles, AND seats. I can't see anything that jumps out at me.

What do you all think about that plug? Does that look rich to you all, too? Like I said, that's stock jetting (#35 & #112), no air filter, no air box cover, needle clip set at top most groove, and plug is gapped to about .026.

My filter didn't come in today. Maybe tomorrow. I don't know what else to do other than try smaller jets.

Is there ANY reason I wouldn't get the right amount of suction from the engine to draw in? What happens to the air that's mixed with the gas after it burns? Out the exhaust, right? What if the exhaust valve wasn't fully opening? Any thoughts?

I would be ecstatic if my plug looked just nearly as good as that. I'm really straining my brain here. I've had bikes my whole life. I had a 1978 XR80 that I absolutely BEAT TO DEATH. I mean I ran it into the Maumee river near my house and it would not die. I ran it in bitter cold temps on the ice and snow pulling sleds and it would not die. It didn't smoke none. I never had to touch the carb. The only thing that happened to it was it got stolen and it was beat up when I got it back. Dents in the tank and such. I bondoed those up and repainted and sold it and then got my 1981 CR125. Even the ATC 110 and 200S I both bought second hand never had problems. The 125 had problems though. Piece of crap. 2 rebuilds and I sold it. My experience has always been that the Honda 4-strokers are nearly indestructible.

"The other thing I should have said is that I'm sure you know that without a filter and lid you can't even begin to tune a stock motor."

Man, it just seems like it's going to be that much worse when I do put the filter on it.

Edit - I just decided that when I pick up the air filter I'm going to buy 3 new jets. I'm going to buy (1) new, stock #35 slow jet in case I did accidentally open it up when I was cleaning the blockage. (2) A new, #32 slow jet. (3) A new #109 main jet. I'll try the new #35 out first with the filter and lid and see what that does.

I like that "buddy technician" idea. Who here is from my area of Ohio? Near Toledo. Even SW Michigan like Detroit? I'll tell you one thing I will do and that is WHEN I get this figured out, I WILL post the "cure", at least for my situation, in this thread so others can gain the knowledge for their own "like" trikes" if they're having a similar problem.

[Dirtcrasher]

Don't mind me, I post and then Edit like crazy until I get what I want to get across correctly I meant to say "throttle valve or slide NEEDLE"

Anyhow, It looks too nice for me to condemn the cam or anything unless you told me it sounded terrible (click, tick, clack etc etc). Of course, "clean" is never a clear indication of the engine condition as plenty of people run low on oil and wear out parts..... I think you did say you adjusted the valves somewhere - any ticking??

Yes, the plug looks a bit rich OR oil fouled to me and maybe not "carburetor" rich. Are you seeing any smoke out of the exhaust??

With no AF, it should be quite white, so (maybe were not thinking correctly here) I'm wondering if the intake valve seal is leaking oil into the combustion chamber and making you think it's carburetor related "rich". It can't be that black from rich gas without an airfilter installed IMHO............. It did sit for a long time, that valve seal might be doing this.

Other stuff: The air screw tip; Thats the most important part, the tip. If it gets bottomed out too hard by some knucklehead it flattens it and then it loses it's sensitivety at 1-2 turns out were things are normally set.

The BAD THING is that I tried 2 different manufacturers rebuild kit and both had the wrong pitch for the thread of that airscrew and I could not use them. I forget whats "right" but the kit screw is more coarse and useless and potentionally allows people to snap them off and or ruin the carb merely installing them Hell, I bought those kits JUST FOR THAT DAM SCREW!! and I couldn't use them......

I say VALVE SEAL

[Jason Hall]

The mixing screw (fuel screw) Is this the one up through the bottom of the carb? If that has a burr on the point, Is there a chance It has bored the aluminum out of the carb body? Where the brass screw seats to meter fuel? If so, that could cause a rich condition by allowing to much fuel through at an Idle. I would try a smaller pilot, and see If you can get ANY adjustment from the fuel screw.

[FourtyCaliber]

"Don't mind me, I post and then Edit like crazy until I get what I want to get across correctly I meant to say "throttle valve or slide NEEDLE"

I understand what you're referring to, I just don't get what you mean by "odd"? Tell me and maybe this will solve this. I've been editing my posts like crazy, too, trying to more clearly say what it is I'm trying to say.

It had oil in it when I originally changed it when I 1st bought it. I just changed it again.

It was ticking before I just adjusted the valves. Now, nice and quiet.

"Yes, the plug looks a bit rich OR oil fouled to me and maybe not "carburetor" rich. Are you seeing any smoke out of the exhaust??"

It's not wet in the least. Dry and sooty. Yes, there's some smoke. Not white. I think the smoke was reduced when I put the clip on the top groove of the needle.

About that air screw tip...................I guess I'm really not understanding how that "tip" affects anything. If I lightly bottom the air screw out, the tip sticks through the small hole into the bore of the carb. It's like the tip has no real purpose. Isn't the "seal" made on the taper of the screw?

I'll be keeping that in mind about the thread if I buy another air screw.


Hey Jason:: Do you mean the screw OUTSIDE of the bowl on the bottom of the carb? If so, yes it is slightly flattened at the tip. But when that screw, with the spring, washer, o-ring configuration, is lightly bottomed out, the flattened out point sticks up into the bore of the carb through the little port into the bore of the carb. I just don't get how that "point" affects anything on that screw. Like I said earlier, this trike continues to run even with that air screw lightly bottomed out. It does not stall it out. Now, unscrewing or backing off the air screw will stall the trike.

If I adjust the air screw about where it should be (1 1/2 - 2 turns open), the trike's idle goes way down to nearly a stall. I have no adjustment on the idle screw in the side of the carburetor to increase the idle. It has to be all the way in if the air screw is open to about 2 turns. If I close the air screw some, say to 1/2 turn open, the idle goes up, and I can back off on the idle adjutment screw some. But I still have the rich plug. I smoothed out the "divet"(from the idle screw) on the angle of the piston slide where the idle screw makes contact.

It's like there's no happy medium. I can make it run, but the plug comes out looking like in the picture.

It might just be me, but it seems like there's A LOT of people on here that post about 200X's running rich.

[FourtyCaliber]

Does anyone know what octane gas I should be running in this trike? I don't have the owner's manual. Thanks