PDA

View Full Version : Laydown 200cc story.



greenhuman
06-23-2009, 09:09 AM
I have been asked a couple of times to write about how the 200cc laydown engine conversion came about. I hope it doesn't bore everyone to death.
Back in 1984 while I was racing trikes very seriously, I came up with the idea that my racing friends and I should all get ATC70's and go on social rides on Wednesday nights in the dunes behind my house. This was supposed to be a way to relieve the pressure of racing and have some fun. The rules were simple. Stock 70's. There were around six of us on the first night but that soon turned into 14 -15. Some bright spark bent the rules and put on a bigger carb and pipe which ment all of us had to as well. New rule . Only slight mods allowed.
Of course someone else put in an ATC90 motor and the new rule was standard 90 motors. Lots of rule changes until the norm was 180cc.
A few of us were sitting around my shed after a Wednesday night ride in 1991discussing how to go faster and someone said its a pity a 200X engine wouldn't fit in a 70 frame because they are vertical and not horizontal. The one rule we maintained all along was 70 wheels, tank, fenders etc. They still had to basically look like a 70 but a 200 engine in a 70 would drag on the sand and look ugly to boot.
After everyone left for the night I got to thinking of a way to overcome this problem so I got a set of 200X cases off the shelf along with a head and cylinder and laid them on the floor. I laid the top end on the cases so it looked like a 90 motor and stood back and squinted a bit. It looked good!
I got out the angle grinder and cut the front engine mount lugs off the cases and it looked better. I roughed out a hole for the cylinder to slip into and sat the head in place and chocked it all up with wood and sockets etc till it all stayed in place and stood back and squinted again and NOW it looked like something. I got out the tape and measured the length and width and it turned out comparable to a 90 motor and thats when I thought we're in business here.
I had previously fitted Honda XL175 heads and cylinders to ATC90 cases but I sold my milling machine so compared to that mod this was easy.
The very next day I went around to a few machine shops. They all looked at me like I was a nut job and said it would never work. I finally went to the guy who used to do my rebores and he said he would give the machining a go. After a few days I got the very first set of cases back and started to put the engine together. Everything went together like stock except for modified center case gasket and an alloy plate to cover the old cylinder hole.
The next job was the frame mod. A couple of hours grinding away metal till the engine sat in place and two new engine bolt holes drilled. Originally I extended the frame tube one inch but settled on two inches after I noticed the front tire rubbing on the bottom rocker cover at high speed.
I was happy when the chain lined up perfectly and even happier when the 90 footpegs all but bolted up to the 200X cases. Next was a custom inlet manifold and a DG exhaust which went up and over the clutch cover. A 28mm CR80 carb, new cables and trimmed wiring harness got it ready to fire.
Three kicks was all it took and it sounded great. I threw on a seat, helmet and hit the paddock out back. This thing made the 180's feel like a standard 70.
New rule. Standard Project X's only. Wasn't long before the 64mm Powroll stroker, hot cam, ported head etc made the new rule 220cc's.
After getting my machinist to do a few more cases he said no more. I went and bought a new milling machine and I get Mart to weld the cases and I do all the machining. I have done this mod to the Chinese 200cc electric start OHC engines as well and they have proven to be a good alternative as the 200X engine are getting hard to find.
The next Project X is going to be a laydown ATC 350X engine in a 70 frame.
New rule. 460cc only.

benb1984
06-23-2009, 09:17 AM
love it... shows u can do anything if u know the right people and have the balls to try...

WIkid500
06-23-2009, 09:41 AM
Wow that has to be one crazy little 70 lol. By chance can you post some pics?

brapp
06-23-2009, 11:08 AM
i wanan see video and were you the one who did the laydown r also?

Vealmonkey
06-23-2009, 11:40 AM
John, that is a cool story. Thanks for sharing that. Even if you think it's boring, it's not and it just goes to show how really neat ideas come to light.
The maker of the laydown 250r is Mart. Also an incredible amount of work. I haven't seen Mart up on 2 tires yet slinging the sand but I really liked his video of his trike on youtube. I would really dig seeing his trike going through the paces.
WIkid, I have pics of Johns cases in my laydown 200x thread if you want to see them.

Dirtcrasher
06-23-2009, 12:16 PM
That is an awesome story :beer:

Thanks for NOT keepin em stock :D

AutoXer
06-23-2009, 12:27 PM
That is crazy .... a 350x in a 70 frame? Wow I love it. Great story also I wish it was easier to get people together for things like this. We all get way to involved in our day to day lives to enjoy life and take chances and ask for more than the mundane. But this week is trikefest so I hope to meet as many of you there as I can and see all the creations that you all like to build

brapp
06-23-2009, 12:45 PM
is ther eany way to build a laydown cr480 motor for me????

Jon Boy
11-29-2011, 12:10 PM
BUMP, for a good read and to maybe give people some new ideas. :lol: :beer

Vealmonkey
11-29-2011, 12:27 PM
Who needs ideas when I already have 2 sets of cases! LOL

86T3
11-29-2011, 02:01 PM
They all looked at me like I was a nut job and said it would never work.

My favorite part of the story:lol:

PerryS
11-29-2011, 02:40 PM
Do you ever have any plans of mass producing these cases for sale?

hillbilly 200x
11-29-2011, 03:11 PM
Lets see the 350!!!!!

Daddio
12-03-2014, 12:30 AM
Cool old thread. I stumbled across it looking for info on atc90-110 engine mods. This story reminds me of the way things went here in our little community. When I got into racing 70s with the guys here in town, they had been doing it for at least 12 years and that was 6 years ago. They started out just like you said, just stock 70s. then came the mods and cart tires, etc.. Now it's the pit bike engines. This past year my son put a PW80 engine in the one he races and it did very well. Just no end to what you may find in a little 70.

Great story. You have a lot of talent pulling off a laydown 200 and Mart with his Lawdown 250. :beer :cool:

greenhuman
12-03-2014, 02:19 AM
Thanks for the comments.
The latest CRF230 conversion is the best yet. I thought I had clutch slippage at the top end in the sand but it turns out it's wheel spin. Roost's everywhere.
The next plan is a 70mm stroked CRF230 crank in 200X cases and a 67mm high top piston. This way it will have more get up and go than the full CRF230 conversion but at a much lighter configuration (no battery, starter, heavy flywheel, solenoids etc).
Another idea is an XL175 top end. 34mm inlet valve standard and can be resleeved to at least 76mm for right around 320cc's.

jakep53
12-03-2014, 07:15 AM
Thanks for the comments.
The latest CRF230 conversion is the best yet. I thought I had clutch slippage at the top end in the sand but it turns out it's wheel spin. Roost's everywhere.
The next plan is a 70mm stroked CRF230 crank in 200X cases and a 67mm high top piston. This way it will have more get up and go than the full CRF230 conversion but at a much lighter configuration (no battery, starter, heavy flywheel, solenoids etc).
Another idea is an XL175 top end. 34mm inlet valve standard and can be resleeved to at least 76mm for right around 320cc's.

I have been very interested in these engines here and oz atv....so did you just have to bore a new hole for the cylinder,cam chain, then what did you do for the oil ports? and is the crank in the same spot just laid down?

motoman1012002
12-03-2014, 01:09 PM
320cc in a 70 would be just way to fun to ride

greenhuman
12-03-2014, 08:38 PM
I have been very interested in these engines here and oz atv....so did you just have to bore a new hole for the cylinder,cam chain, then what did you do for the oil ports? and is the crank in the same spot just laid down?
If I told you all that I would then have to kill you. LOL

jakep53
12-03-2014, 09:17 PM
If I told you all that I would then have to kill you. LOL

ahh come on.....one day I will come up with something of my own haha. I saw one of your chinese laydown engines in a 70 on ebay a while ago I was really tempted, but I wanted a honda engine not chinese...how many laydown engines are out there, that you have built?

YTZ drew
12-04-2014, 12:08 AM
Another idea is an XL175 top end. 34mm inlet valve standard and can be resleeved to at least 76mm for right around 320cc's.

I never thought the XL175 was good for anything, being sort of an orphan motor. It's cool that you found a good use for them. But, pray tell, how did you settle on that engine as a donor?

greenhuman
12-04-2014, 12:41 AM
Cam chain is on the proper side, you can get good performance cams and springs for them, big valves and doesn't look that much different than a 200/230 head.
I always thought with their big crank diameter and short stroke, big head stud pattern and small bore and the big valves that Honda were going to develop this engine into a big cc power plant but they stopped making them in favour the regular 185's etc.
I worked out years ago with transplanting the XL175 top end onto 90 cases that these cylinders could be resleeved to take 80mm pistons.