Question for more experienced offroad riders

[Shftatsix]

Ok I want to preface this by saying I have never ridden in dirt on any vehicle until about a week ago.

I have always used the clutch for up/down shifting in my car and on my street bike, I just had a discussion with my buddy about clutchless upshift and downshift while on the trails and track with dirt bikes and trikes. My gut instinct says that this will damage the gears, but the more I read websites and forums the more im thinking that it wont.

Can someone shoot some facts/opinions at me please?

[Louis Mielke]

You can indeed shift without using the clutch. Believe it or not it is actually possible to shift a road vehicle such as your car without using the clutch but it's very difficult. It's really just a matter of knowing you engine, and "feeling" the RPM of the engine vs the trans.

That being said, yes you can wear out your trans parts and clutch faster by not using the clutch if you're doing it improperly. Unless you really comfortable with your bike and shifting and all that jazz, just use your clutch to be safe.

[JohnR.]

Motorcycle and ATV transmissions don't use synchros like a car trans does, they have straight gut gears that are often called a dog box. Trying to jam the trans into the next gear while under throttle will damage stuff. Clicking it up or down a gear while easing off the gas will not hurt it.

John

[Shftatsix]

So have you seen first hand damage to the tranny due to clutchless shifting? Because these ppl on this other forum have said they always shift w/o clutch and no tranny prob due to it.

And how do you do this technique properly vs improperly? Maybe some pointers on how to learn this technique properly? (edit: ok so proper technique is to just let off the gas and shift as normal, just w/o clutch?)

[deathman53]

by not using the clutch to shift you will wear grooves faster in the clutch basket. More people than will say don't use the clutch for up/down shifting, I don't alot of times in the dirt. If you do it just right, the gear will slip right in, you must know your bike to do this. I know truckers that don't use the clutch for shifting, only first few gears get the clutch used. On the street and on a bike w/o a cush hub or dampening system can be harmful if done wrong, on the dirt, its alot harder to hurt things. I know guys that were taught, to use the clutch for 1st gear and stopping only. When they inspect things, stuff is all good, they tend to get replace clutch baskets every several years.

[JohnR.]

Personally, I haven't had any clutch basket issues and I'm still on my stocker. I have a billet one that I really need to dig out of the closet and put in.

John

[Billy Golightly]

Your more likely to bend a shift fork because of the extra tension required to move the gear sets around on the shafts while its under a load, and maybe some additional clutch basket notching, but thats the extent of it. I'm pretty hard on my transmission. I hardly ever use the clutch to change gears with unless its coming out of a corner and I'm using it to keep me in the power.

[ironchop]

I agree with all the answers posted

Shftatsix, these trannys can hold up well....get yer machine and ride through some soft stuff (helps lessen gear backlash)...I ride around using clutch to start and shift to 2nd....and then practice shifts w/o the clutch....the key for me is letting off throttle while already putting pressure on the shifter in the direction ya want to shift...add throttle only after shift is complete.

as John R. pointed out:"Clicking it up or down a gear while easing off the gas will not hurt it."

Use the throttle as the clutch (in a way)

it will take you some practice to get the feel of yer tranny and a little practice won`t trash a trans...but don`t "Jam" it into gear while accelerating or long term damage would be an issue.

[BigRed_Ryno]

Would i be right in saying it woud be ess harmfull on a 2 stroke? as you haven't got al that engine torque to be fighting?

[Louis Mielke]

If your worried about it then just use the clutch all the time. It's that simple.

[DeePa]

i always try to use the clutch, but sometimes in drastic situations ill slam her around a little bit...

[Louis Mielke]

sometimes in drastic situations ill slam her around a little bit...



Jeezzzzeee....Wifebeeter. LOL :-P Told her twice eh?

[Vealmonkey]

I look at it like this. Alot of pro dirt bike racers and some other racers don't use the clutch a whole lot. But racers often have racing teams who are tearing apart their machines at the end of every race and inspecting parts. If you are just a recreational rider, than use the clutch. Alot of people who don't use the clutch are wanna-be racers. You can do alot of damage to your equipment and that means money spent in repairs. It's your machine, ride it how you want. But be prepared to pony up the cash if you damage anything and it's no ones' fault but yours. There are plenty of low hour used machinary that has trashed transmissions for this very reason. Also doing this will guarantee alot of premature wear and tear in your tranny and have all kinds of multicolored shavings in your oil everytime you change it. And where do you think all this metal comes from? Is it worth it to you? Do you have a bottomless waller? I know I don't. Even goofing around with my buddies, it's just not worth it to me to unnecessarily abuse my equipment. Sooner or later you will pay the price. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do.

[the tecate kid]

When I first started to race quads I was 15 and it was a Quadracer 250. Let me tell you, I used the clutch only at the holeshot and when I was pulling up to the van after the race. Was it to be faster? HELL NO! I was holding on for dear life! I didnt want to let go to pull in the clutch! Basically its a bad habit in my opinion. When I switched to the four-strokers back in 2000, it broke that habit quick. For some reason the big thumpers wont shift like the 2 strokers would. Looking back now, I should have learned to use the clutch efficiently years ago. You will be MUCH faster on a track with the clutch. With my cannondale, you better have a finger or two on the clutch at all times, or you will stall out each and every tight turn.

[BigRed_Ryno]

I know riding bikes on the road when learning they teach you to ride the clutch, A LOT. Being a wet clutch it aint gonna burn out like a 'dry' clutch in a car would in a matter of minutes. Sure i can fix most things myself bike wise, but if the clutch is there might as well use it. I agree with Vealmonkey here, there's no point taking the edges off those drive dogs for nothin more than being a 'wanna-be'
I'd rather make the machine last :)

[atcrider1]

on my 350x i rarely use the clutch to up shift, but i use it when down shifting a few gears

[Dirtcrasher]

I use my clutch about 75% of the time.

Sometimes your body is not in a position to shift but you need to gain or lose a gear, thats when I just shift it without the clutch.

Each gear basically has 3 or more positions (depending on the holes in the gears) in which it can engage when the shifter is lifted, the drum turns and the fork tries to slide it over. The clutch gives it just the gear dogs the opportunity to engage without jamming.

And whether it's upshifting or downshifting, both are engaging a gear and there is either engine power or the speed of the rear wheels challenging it to engage smoothly.

Thats MY theory anyhow :D

[fabiodriven]

As a truck driver/mechanic/street-dirt rider I do know a thing or two about all this. It is true that most truck drivers do not use the clutch to shift. That is the proper way of shifting a truck with a non-synchronised transmission. A trike can be shifted the same way, but it was not designed for that. Shifting every now and then without the clutch if you use the throttle right is not going to hurt anything. "Powershifting", or just jamming gears will hurt stuff, and probably pretty fast. I really see no need for not using the clutch unless you're in an awkward situation where you just can't grab it. If you're just riding regularly there really is no reason for not using it. In a drag race there really isn't going to any benefit because you will actually have to back off the throttle to "line up" the gears. I just open the throttle, touch the clutch, and shift, never letting off the gas (Right Deepa?):D .

All in all, just use it whenever you can, that's what it's there for.

As for the wearing of the clutch basket thing, the only worn clutch basket I ever saw was on an 84 250R and it was worn from old age and USING the clutch, not from NOT USING the clutch. There were grooves in the basket where the plates slide back and forth when engaging and disengaging the clutch. I have never seen a clutch component wear out after not being used. I have seen a Peterbilt go 400+ thousand miles on the factory clutch because the only time it gets used is starting from a stand-still. After that, it never gets touched.

[ironchop]

Clutches do NOT translate into damage-free shifting....they may help if used properly however, improperly using a clutch under throttle load can cause damage as well as hard shifting

also, the clutch reduces the shock to the gear dogs on the side of the gears as well as the shift forks themselves...but mis-use can damage the gear teeth as well as the load on the clutch basket just as Fabio pointed out

a few manufacturers realized this utilizing rubber shock isolators inside clutch baskets or inside the rear wheel hub...Triumph being just one example...I know from years of experience that using a non-isolated belt drive conversion on those street-ridden machines as well as AHRMA race bikes i`ve wrenched translates into a trashed gearset wether you use the clutch all the time or not....many Brit bikes use a similar setup to isolayte the shock and Brit manufacturers were not the only ones to follow suit

drivetrain shock is inevitable and shock=damage....clutches exponentially reduce drivetrain shock and give the gearsets a longer life expectancy... however, improperly executed shifts ( clutch or no clutch) will damage stuff

if one thinks that repeated dumping the clutch when the gate drops in a race or recreational riding will not ultimately damage the gears, you are mislead

if clutches prevented the initial shock to the drivetrain with slippage under throttle, then nobody could spin a tire on take-off

a clutch does LESSEN the the shock to the drivetrain but will not prevent it unless you baby the machine all the time

all a clutch does is remove the torque load from the crank on the gearset...keep in mind that torque loads also come from the other end of the machine...the rear wheel(s)...As in the case of downshifting to slow the machine down or letting off the throttle in gear, one would have to pull the clutch in while deccelerating in gear to offset this shock should they be that worried about damage

while I won`t argue that dmage could occur from improperly hard-shifting, I emphasize that I have rebuilt more than a handful transmissions that were trashed purely from improper treatment while using the clutch..."snapping" the clutch lever under acceleration....as when you stay on the throttle while shifting, the RPMs shoot up and you engage a transmission that is spinning slower than the crankshaft is...and that causes shock to the entire drivetrain

on a side note, I have read the term "wannabe" thrown around twice in this thread...disturbing that a guy can`t post an opinion w/o qualifying the statement by accusing others who may not use the same riding methods as a "wannabe"

the question posted asked if it were possible to shift w/o clutch on an off-road machine w/o damaging a gearset... done correctly,and using only my own personal experiences, I belive it entirely possible..however, I don`t try and qualify my opinion by saying that those who can`t seem to get the job done w/o a clutch lever are [insert derogatory term here]...while I didn`t take the term to be a personal attack I just think if one firmly believes in his/her own opinion, then one needs not qualify the statement by bashing the opposition.

it would be nice to see an opinion thread here for once NOT deteriorate into mudslinging, name calling, and chest pounding

so.....I`m with Louis....if it bothers you, then use the lever all the time

enough said

[Billy Golightly]

Clutches do NOT translate into damage-free shifting....they may help if used properly however, improperly using a clutch under throttle load can cause damage as well as hard shifting

also, the clutch reduces the shock to the gear dogs on the side of the gears as well as the shift forks themselves...but mis-use can damage the gear teeth as well as the load on the clutch basket just as Fabio pointed out

a few manufacturers realized this utilizing rubber shock isolators inside clutch baskets or inside the rear wheel hub...Triumph being just one example...I know from years of experience that using a non-isolated belt drive conversion on those street-ridden machines as well as AHRMA race bikes i`ve wrenched translates into a trashed gearset wether you use the clutch all the time or not....many Brit bikes use a similar setup to isolayte the shock and Brit manufacturers were not the only ones to follow suit

drivetrain shock is inevitable and shock=damage....clutches exponentially reduce drivetrain shock and give the gearsets a longer life expectancy... however, improperly executed shifts ( clutch or no clutch) will damage stuff

if one thinks that repeated dumping the clutch when the gate drops in a race or recreational riding will not ultimately damage the gears, you are mislead

if clutches prevented the initial shock to the drivetrain with slippage under throttle, then nobody could spin a tire on take-off

a clutch does LESSEN the the shock to the drivetrain but will not prevent it unless you baby the machine all the time

all a clutch does is remove the torque load from the crank on the gearset...keep in mind that torque loads also come from the other end of the machine...the rear wheel(s)...As in the case of downshifting to slow the machine down or letting off the throttle in gear, one would have to pull the clutch in while deccelerating in gear to offset this shock should they be that worried about damage

while I won`t argue that dmage could occur from improperly hard-shifting, I emphasize that I have rebuilt more than a handful transmissions that were trashed purely from improper treatment while using the clutch..."snapping" the clutch lever under acceleration....as when you stay on the throttle while shifting, the RPMs shoot up and you engage a transmission that is spinning slower than the crankshaft is...and that causes shock to the entire drivetrain

on a side note, I have read the term "wannabe" thrown around twice in this thread...disturbing that a guy can`t post an opinion w/o qualifying the statement by accusing others who may not use the same riding methods as a "wannabe"

the question posted asked if it were possible to shift w/o clutch on an off-road machine w/o damaging a gearset... done correctly,and using only my own personal experiences, I belive it entirely possible..however, I don`t try and qualify my opinion by saying that those who can`t seem to get the job done w/o a clutch lever are [insert derogatory term here]...while I didn`t take the term to be a personal attack I just think if one firmly believes in his/her own opinion, then one needs not qualify the statement by bashing the opposition.

it would be nice to see an opinion thread here for once NOT deteriorate into mudslinging, name calling, and chest pounding

so.....I`m with Louis....if it bothers you, then use the lever all the time

enough said


Quality post, that I agree with. Thumbs up.

[oscarmayer]

maybe they are running a clutchless trans like a the 110-200s series. the 200x and up use a clutch. maybe their gearboxes don't require them. jsut a thought since type was not mentioned.

[Russell 350X]

The only time I don't use my clutch is when I'm just cruising down a fire road, not high RPM's, just babying it along. Thats on my 350X. Havent done it on the Tri-Z. I shift my S-10 without the clutch I bet 85% of the time. Just have to know your engine and tranny. One ex-quad racer I talked to said he never used his clutch, only during the holeshot. That was on a TRX250R/450R hybrid.

[The Goat]

maybe they are running a clutchless trans like a the 110-200s series. the 200x and up use a clutch. maybe their gearboxes don't require them. jsut a thought since type was not mentioned.


the clutch is activated by your foot in those bikes...

just like the new conversions for the 450s if I'm not mistaken.

[JohnR.]

If that were true it'd stall out when you stop in gear. Those bikes have a certain amount of slip built into the clutch that allows you to stop while in gear without using the clutch.

John

[fabiodriven]

If that were true it'd stall out when you stop in gear. Those bikes have a certain amount of slip built into the clutch that allows you to stop while in gear without using the clutch.

John

Actually, it is true. There is a mechanism that engages the clutch when you shift, the Goat is %100 correct.

I don't know about Honda's, but I worked on a Yamaha that had both a centrifigal (SP?) clutch and a regular "plate" type clutch. The centrifigal clutch allows you to idle in gear and the "plate" clutch engaged when you shift.

If the clutch were allowed to sit there and slip, it would heat up and you'd smoke it in no time flat.

[JohnR.]

Ahh. I see.