Sold 200s , Bought 350x !! Need Help

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Hey guys , i traded my 200s and some a little money and i got a 85 350x , it isn't in too bad of shape. It does have a small hairline crack in frame tho by seat mounts i need to get addressed asap tho.

Anyways , he started it up for me , and it runs somewhat and then dies , sounds great tho when running. But upon trying to get it started it just pops and backfires horribly. He said it started doing this when he put on the Brand new DG pipe . I am thinking it is getting too much air and doesn't have enough gas becuase i brough it home and messed with it some , but couldn't get it started. Tommorow i am gonna get some new plugs , and check the timing and the valves to see how that is.

i looked in the carb tonight and it looked clean but i am going to clean it anyways tommorow. it says online the pilot screw is supposed to be out 1-3/4 turns , but they had it at 3-1/4 out. it does have the 138 msin jet , but the other thing that i found weird is that it says online it needs a 45 slow jet and it has a 42 in it.

my biggest question is , how much do i need to change the jetting to start off with to get it started based on it has a DG pipe on it ????

It has spark , i just think it might be a timing , bad plug , or too much air from Pipe. If anyone has any help with adding pipes and jetting it would be appreciated , thanks

[beets442]

It might help to go up on the air screw and check the intake for cracks, seal leaks. I usually jet up if I've bored it. I'll ajust the carb alittle if I just do the UNI air and DG pipe, but you've got a good start. Like you, I do the timing first, compression, carb and plug....bla bla bla. Good luck Beets

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Thanks man! Yeah I am super excited ! I have wanted one for a while

[leevarnado]

lets see pics

[ThinktwiceZ71]

i don't have any yet , i took one of the exhaust last night on my phone , but that was it. i am gonna get some today when i go work on it , i brought it to my buddies garage last night

[don't remember]

i went up to a 140 jet and a 45 jet in mine and it was just about perfect

[ThinktwiceZ71]

I don't understand this , I cleaned the carb , went back to the factory settings and it will run but it will not idle unless I have my hand on the throttle. It backfires and pops when riding slow and the more gas I give it seems to help . If I let off the gas she dies inmediately . Dg pipe, 138 main jet, 42 slow jet , 1-3/4 pilot . Any ideas ?

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well i think i found my problem , and why it won't idle at all unless i keep the throttle pressed in some , as soon as i let go she dies and it smokes black like a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro. I did a compression test on it , 70psi , as high as i got in a 350x , yeah i know i couldn'
t believe it , that is with choke fully on , and throttle fully open. I put a cap full of oil in the plug hole and did it again , and it went up to 150. So should i order the first size over Wiseco piston and that will be good ? I'll bring the jug to the machine shop to have them do all the prep work on it and then i will do the rest of the installation myself. At first i thought the timing was off , so i checked it, with it on the "T" it is off a little bit (maybee one tooth) but if i put something in the plug whole to feel where TDC really is then it is Dead on.

anyone have any suggestions before i tear into this motor ? i got a manual , i did my 200s , i am not worried about doing the top end on this, i just wanna make sure i am not overlooking something simple . - thanks - Art

[oscarmayer]

^ choke should be "OFF" not on. in a compression test, your tring to let the motor get as much air as possible to test the compression. if you choke it, it's not getting correct air. redo the test with no choke and throttle open.

if still low, then pull the jum and have the psiton and jub tested for size. reason is, you don't know if it has been rebuilt yet and what if you jsut wasted your $ on the wrong size? Never assume anything on these machines. if you buy a machine spec, mic and check everything when working on it.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

well what is the minumum compression needed for it to run ? What would cause this thing to not idle at all ? i need to have my hand on the throttle and it willl idle but as soon as i let go it dies , idle is adjusted all the way up on carb and it did nothing. Carb is clean i did it 3 times for piece of mind. Timing is correct. Any ideas ?

[Dirtcrasher]

I hope you have at least 150psi, they don't seem to run too well with less than 120psi but your looking for about 180psi.....

There is really no other timing other than valve timing.

When you clean the carb, do you remove every single jet and the needle jet holder getting all the passages clear?? Esp the pilot jet and passage.

Is the oring on the front intake good and sealing well?

Is the airscrew correct? and does the order go screw, spring, washer and last - oring? That oring affects starting and the 1/4 inch circuit as does the amount of turns out.

That DG will require a bit more fuel, esp if not running an airbox lid.

Does the condition change with or without the airbox lid??

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well I messed with it some more and the pilot hole there where chunks of that o-ring plugging the whole some, but it still won't idle. I wonder if the oring is ripped and that is causing it ! I know it has the dg pipe and usually you need to richen the carb , but mine is actually too rich as it is. The plug is dry but carbon fouled. I took it for a small ride I just had to keep my thumb on the gas or it would die, down low it was really doggy and bogging but once I got up to the higher rpm range I could feel the power increase and it wasn't too bad.

[Dirtcrasher]

^ GOOD! Sounds like your on the right path!

Don't ever overlook fuel delivery either. Especially if you running a metal tank. That petcock has to come out, disassembled and cleaned and the plastic stock filter in the tank should get tossed. Then run an inline filter you can actually see when it begins to get dirty and easily replace for 2$.

There really is allot to carburetors, that airscrew and it's order are very important. Jetting, could have been messed with and most likely has to be dealt with from a fresh perspective. Not you necessarily, but lots of people take off a carb, remove the bowl and floats and wash it in some gas or carb cleaner and call it good.

I myself was guilty of that for many years until I got over my fear of those big scary "JETS!!" I'm well past that now though :D

Honda made us basically bulletproof powerplants. We just need to maintain them and understand how they work.

Just yesterday I was messing with jetting. A main jet .065 would not accept fuel and coffed, barked and sputtered - AND, it DID NOT show rich in a plug chop!! But, I felt it was too rich so I dropped it 3 more times till I got to .055 and it ran awesome.

.010 or ten thousandths is a huge difference as far as fuel metering goes.

[Mr.Atc]

it is probably out of time but if it is jetted stock i would go up a couple

[ThinktwiceZ71]

So you think I should try and get one of those little orings and try that? I just don't understand why with the idle all the way turned in it won't idle! Ill go back out after dinner and check all the passages again and see if something Is clogged ! One more thing is this... If when I checked the timing with the "t" it was off a little but maybee a tooth or 2 , but if when I put something in the plug whole to fine tune the TDC the marks where perfectly paralell with the mounting surface. But it isn't lined up with the t anymore. So what way do I go by ? Lined up with the "t" where I'll have to more the chain a tooth or 2 , or with the stick feeling for the exact TDC and leave it as it is cause like that it says the timing is dead on.

[Dirtcrasher]

^ The factory ignition cannot be adjusted, it is fixed.

I've never had a popping or lack of power issue relating to a bad CDI or coil or stator etc etc.

Although, I have had broken wires (250SX by the battery box mounted CDI) cause sporadic and odd issues. But, they were never consistant.... A carburetor improperly jetted or plugged will cause a fairly consistant failure.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

So with the the "t" lined up with the line on the case that is where those 2 marks on the cam are supposed to line up on the top of the engine? Cause if so my timing is off some

[Dirtcrasher]

So you think I should try and get one of those little orings and try that? I just don't understand why with the idle all the way turned in it won't idle! Ill go back out after dinner and check all the passages again and see if something Is clogged ! One more thing is this... If when I checked the timing with the "t" it was off a little but maybee a tooth or 2 , but if when I put something in the plug whole to fine tune the TDC the marks where perfectly paralell with the mounting surface. But it isn't lined up with the t anymore. So what way do I go by ? Lined up with the "t" where I'll have to more the chain a tooth or 2 , or with the stick feeling for the exact TDC and leave it as it is cause like that it says the timing is dead on.


I almost never find that "T" to be dead nuts... It is supposed to be done correctly from the install, but who knows what the previous owner did....

One tooth either way will not bend a valve (contrary to popular belief :lol:) but it can cause issues. I usually put a straw in the spark plug hole and bring it to TDC, then make sure the cam sprocket lines are dead nuts.

I'm not sure about the 350X, but the 86/87 200X has a plug you can remove with a mark on the sprocket that puts the cam with the lobes either up or down but in a perfect flat plain... so you can verify the ignition timing without removing the valve cover.

I'm not too quick to blame that though....

As far as the oring, you may have a tough time finding just that oring. I always get stuck buying the rebuild kit. Does this mean you never installed a 15$ rebuild kit?? You may want to start there!!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

lol nope , i just got this 350x friday night at 9pm lol

but that is my question. If i go by the t mark my timing is off , if i go by the straw in the plug whole at tdc it is dead on. so am i right or am i wrong ?

[Atc GuY]

Check the timing! My 200x ran horrible, 30-50 kicks to start it up NO JOKING! It would pop, backfire, and once running not idle worth beans. In high RPM's pulled like a 350. Found out the cam was retarted 1 tooth. I advanced it 1 tooth and it started 2nd kick every time. I agree with Dirtcrasher, the timing showed it was way off once I got it dialed in (the timing line on flywheel and dots on cam.) I think when assembling, it's the cam chain guides that throw the timing off, as they tension the cam chain ever so slightly. Under the CDI cover, you should be able to loosen 2 screws and move the CDI plate forward (like the tires turn) to retard and opposite to advance. As it's running, move it slowly each way and see where it runs better. That will clue you in on which way to rotate the cam. I had mine all the way back (opposite the tires spin) -which was fully advanced- to make up for the retarded cam. Hope that made sence! lol

[AutoXer]

Really dosent sound like a timing issue ... you said it runs good at the top of the rev range just wont idle....... get the rebuild kit for the carb and a bigger slow jet (idle) even though its only a size or 2 smaller I would change it at least back to stock.. And Congrats on your purchase seems like alot better deal than you had going before

[ThinktwiceZ71]

well i found the o-ring i needed for the air/pilot screw , they had an assortment kit at advance in the help section for 3.00 , fit perfect , i need a new plug tho and they don't have the one's i need. Napa in the morning and i'll let ya know from there. there is one passage no matter what i do i can't get any air or fluid through it so i will have to try that too

[ThinktwiceZ71]

it's the passage inside the float bowl , between the pilot screw and the slow jet , there is a hole there with nothing in it , and if you follow the cast there is a hole inside the carb that i can't get anything through , now is something supposed to come out of there ? take a look and let me know

[ThinktwiceZ71]

i think regardless if i get it going or not i am going to freshen the top end , new gaskets , seals , and wiseco piston. The compression was 70 , put some oil in and it went to 150 , so i know that isn't helping me getting this running.

[oscarmayer]

i woudl order a carb rebuild kit, and go down and get these things from the auto parts store.

1gallon can of chem dip
1 roll of blue shop towels
1 can of carb cleaner

order the new carb rebuild kit.
take the carb apart, drop every littel peice into the can of dip and let it soak for 2-3 days. then pull it out and use HOT water to clean it and then carb cleaner to ensure all passages are clear. clean the old jets so you can use them for a reference if needed.

when new carb kit comes in, install everything on cleaned parts (use only the new parts ont anythign old) set the mixture to 1 and 1/2 tuens out (maybe 1 and 3/4 out) and turn the idle screw about 1/4 way in to start with. put the needle at center notch.

this shoudl get you started int he right direction.


did you re-run the compression tests? rememebr leave all opening open meaning no choke and open throttle all the way.

[big schott]

I have a 200X with a DG pipe and it does the same thing. Mine starts up and runs ok but,,,, Pops and farts with out the choke on until it gets warmed up. Onece its warm it runs good at full throttle but pips and pops in the midrange. the Idle is OK as long as it is a high idle. I know mine is a carb issue but when you said the guy said it started doing this when he put on the new pipe it all made sence. I need to change my jetting and I would say that is what you need to do also.

I think these DG pipes are loud and they seen to move air but, I don't think they make much performance upgrades. IMO my stock 200X is WAY faster and has MUCH more power (with jetting this could change).

[ThinktwiceZ71]

can someone explain to me how to check to make sure the choke is working ? and not stuck on. I can move the lever up and down , but how do i know inside the carb the choke is working correctly ? (it isn't a flap type like on my 200s)i looked every which way at this carb today and no matter how i moved that choke lever , or where i looked nothing changed when i moved the lever. I just wanna make sure it's not something stupid like the choke is stuck on some . Thanks

[ThinktwiceZ71]

HOLY trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro !!!!!!I think i just figured it out , i was just looking at the online manual for my carb again and it hit me......my carb doesn't have the friggin Needle seat installed in it ! The friggin needle just rattles around in there. I can't believe after 10 carb cleanings on this thing in 2 days i just figured this out. GOD I AM A MORON. Looks like i need to order a carb kit lol. No wonder the friggin black smoke was pouring out of the back

[oscarmayer]

LOL!!!!!!!

buy a new carb kit as I told you before silly goose! :P it gots everything you need including some new screws!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

i can't believe the damn thing even started lol

[ThinktwiceZ71]

http://i9.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/3c/ae/479a_1.JPG

do all 4 of those passages in that carb right there supposed to be clear ? there is one i can't get anything through. the one passage i can't get cleared out or clean is the one that if you follow it , it will lead to the unised hole on bottom of the carb in the float bowl. I just don't know if it is clogged , or just sealed off and not supposed to be a passage there

[ThinktwiceZ71]

and are all needle seats the same ? i have a an extra one from an old carb i put in , i just wanna try it while waiting for my carb kit to come in to see if it works

[oscarmayer]

no seats are not the same. theya re matched to the needle "I beleive".

i think they all should be cleared. but check to ensure its's clear w/o the choke in.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

the carb kit fron dennis kirk, plus one size bigger pilot , plus one size bigger main jet in case i find out i do need them from the pipe once i get it running good. Overnight shipping charges suck lol. The shipping was more expensive then my parts. But i couldn't wait till thursday lol !

how do i know the choke works correctly ? is there a way to check it ?

[Dirtcrasher]

^ sure, once the engine is warm, choke it and it should die or at least run terrible....

[ThinktwiceZ71]

thanks man - never really thought of that. I get my carb kit and new jets tommorow , so i should have it running tommorow . I still can't get over the fact that it didn't have the needle seat in it , no wonder it blew the black smoke out the back

[oscarmayer]

choke lever down is off, and choke lever up is on. make sure it moves the little flapper lever. when you take the carb off, flip it up and down and look at the carb and you should see the big butterfly or flapper openad close. it's on the head side of the carb.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

nope my carb doesn't do that ! With the carb off and i move the choke lever up and down nothing in my carb moves or does anything. I wasn't sure if this type of carb was different or did something different. When i lift the lever up and down , there is a rod that gets pulled up and down on the outside of the carb , but i have looked and it doesn't do anything on the inside. What could be wrong ? or does this type of carb not close the flapper just close off some of the air passages in the carb ? hence i won't see the flapper open or close ?

[AutoXer]

sounds like you have a 2 stroke carb on there. I t ritchens the fuel circuit instead of restricting the air (DC is going to say they are a biotch to jet and to get a butterfly carb) Some people have luck with them. Hopefully I am one of those people because that is the style on my 200x and I am going to want to run this in the cold some

[factoryX]

no, he say's it is not moving.

[AutoXer]

ok my bad "or does this type of carb not close the flapper" if it has a flapper it should close to choke the air off to the carb. Can you get it to move at all by hand?

[oscarmayer]

look at this ebay link.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-Carburetor-ATC350X-ATC-350%2Fx-kit-Carb-85+86-New_W0QQitemZ250395698816QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxZ2009 0325?IMSfp=TL0903251610007r14649

if you look closley there is a little metal tab that stuck out the bottom. the chole pushes on that to close the or open the flapper (butterfly)

the bottom 2 pics here show the butterfly op and closed. notice the choke lever position. up =choke on, and down = choke off.

your stocker carb should be simular. if the put the choke arm on wrong then it could maybe not engauging the choke, or something broke and needs to be replaced.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

my manual says iam supposed to have Carb QAA05A and that is what my carb says , but i don't have a choke like the one in the link you posted , i have one where when you lift the lever it pulls up on a plunger thing. According to the manual for it and the numbers on my carb this is the correct one. Why does the link show a different type tho ?

[ThinktwiceZ71]

and acording to the servicehonda website it is correct to , because the diagram shows what i have , not what the picture of the carb you showed.

[oscarmayer]

the link is not a "stock" carb so that could be why it's different. is the never there? when you move the choke lever does it pull the lever and move the choke? take some pics and post them of "your" carb and lever. that woudl probebly help better.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

this is my carb choke thing i am talking about i took a picture with my phone.

[factoryX]

your flapper is shut so the shoke is on...?

[oscarmayer]

wow that's more like a 250sx/es carb that a standard carb. weird. ok the side peice probelby plugs a passage way for air flow during startup and you do not touch the throttle when trying to start as this bypasses the choked controlled passage. (simular to the 250sx/es) that's why you did not see anything there. you need to enusre there's only a very slight tension onthe throtttle cable and even then it shoudl be sorta loose but not really if you can understand. basically the throttle caboe shoudl NOT be pulling on the slider at all.

you still need a good carb cleaning and rebuild for sure!!!!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Honda-ATC-350X-350-X-ATC350X-Carburetor-Carb_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43979QQihZ003QQite mZ130294163765QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

well here is a 350x carb on ebay and it is the same thing as mine , so i am 100% sure it is the right one , i checked 5 different places , and all of them show my carb.

i just wanna know how do i make sure this is right

[oscarmayer]

ok i edited the pic.

red is the choke pathway.
green = fuel flow into the choke area
blue is the AIR passage. This shoudl help you undertstand better how it works.

your carb "may be" opposite. as in down is on and up is off.

[factoryX]

okay it looks like the choke is on...

[braunz200x]

ThinktwiceZ71 check out this video about carbs it should help answer most of your questions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4azg3hIl9oI

hey i saw a video of your 200s on there too, It looked like a nice ride

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Alright the whole carb kit is in, new plug and it seems like it wants to go but it just makes a low blahh sound like its gonna fire ! Its almost like I need to adjust the mixture screw, so I am trying to get this right as we speak! Mixture screw is 1-3/4 turns out

[Dirtcrasher]

Your picture is definitely a 350X carb is it an "10" within the number? I forget but there were a couple Keihins be it 85 or 86, one may be 10 and the other 5??

The SX was 03 or 08 - IDK, it's been awhile!!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

It starts a littleand then dies I might try raising the needle clip one, seems like the mixture is too rich or getting too much fuel. It will start a little and then die , but if I give it a little gas and try to start it then nothing.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

oh and mine is the 5 carb , no 10 in it

[factoryX]

should start, are you giving it gas when you try to start it?

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well that is the thing , if I give it no gas she starts a ittle and then dies maibee for 1 second, but if I give it a little gas when I try to start it then it does nothing at all, so I thinj it has too much gas

[ThinktwiceZ71]

What about if the 2 vent hoses to the carb aren't hooked up? Will it run without those?

[oscarmayer]

yea it can run w/o the vent hoses.

race the clip up 1 notch. try starting the the choke half way. you should not be touching the throttle to start it.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

I did raise it 1 and it didn't do anything I adjusted my valves and everything , it starts a tiny bit and then dies , I don't get it

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Looks like its gonna be a little while before this is running ! I wanted to chevk the stator behind the right side cover and all the dam oil from the maching is in there , its still leaking out and its been 3 minutes ! I am guessing crank seal is goner , now I know why intermittent spark! Ugh lol this sucjs

[ThinktwiceZ71]

trying to call around and see who can overnight the 2 seals and gasket to me right now !!!!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

is it just a matter of cleaning all the oil off the parts , removing the flywheel with the puller , and replacing the seal ?

i guess there is a good side to everything , with all that oil in there the stator and flywheel look in mint condition , no rust lol

[oscarmayer]

yea that's a good thing.

you may have foulded a plug with it running rich.

there's something that was missed someplace on that carb. There's also a possability that the seat for the float is corruded and not allowing even the new float needle to seal and stop fuel flow. if htis is the case then the carb is junk and has to be repalced unless someone here has a way to resruface the float needle seat. i have 2 junk carbs due to this.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

no the float needle seals great , i can put my finger lightly on the float and blow in the fuel line and no air gets through , so it works good. I think the main problem now was weak spark due to the oil in the stator cover , so i gotta get all that cleaned out and get a good hot spark and it should take care of it .

Things in spec and checked.....

-timing - good
Carb - rebuilt good
Crankcase seal , and soaked stator ....trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro!!!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well I am 99% sure I found my problem, I am just had the dealer pull the flywheel for me while waiting for my seal to come in and come to find out the woodruff key was broken and in 2 pieces . I got the new key and when I get it all together at home ill let ya know ! Wish me luck

[ThinktwiceZ71]

IT LIVES!!!!!!!!! it is running , it idles great , nice and quiet , i just need to adjust the idle mixture some more , it dies on take off a little , i need to give it more gas to go. But i am tickeld pink. lol

I gotta admit the DG pipe this guy put on sounds sweet. lol i won't have anymore neighbor friends but it sounds awesome. Now i just gotta clean up that original rear fender he gave me with them and i can order alot of stuff once i get back to work.

I need rear brake pads , all front brakes , electrical rectifier thing , light bulbs . and i will be all good.

gotta go play with my toy lol by for now.

This is what i used for oil. http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=76

[ThinktwiceZ71]

i had it damn it , but it was sputtering on take off some and would stall unless i gave it alot of gas , i dunno if it is air fuel , or the clutches slipping or the cable out of adjustment.

i had it idleing nice and smooth and everything this is what it was.

138 main , 42 pilot , air screw i don't remmember , needle second spot.
plug nice and chocolate milk color.

i tried putting different combinations of 140 main jet , 45 pilot , 3rd clip and everything and i couldn't get it to idle at all. I gotta try finding that sweet spot again tommorow ......but i did find out one thing the hard way today.....

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO KICK START 350X WITH WET SNEAKERS......mother of god my shin hurts , 3 times same friggin spot ........ouchie!!!!

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Make sure that you change ONE JETTING ITEM at a time!!

You'll get lost doing more than one change, I thought I was smarter than the carburetor too and I lost :lol:

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Lol yeah I know what ya mean , what isthe deal woith ngk plugs ? They foul way faster than chamion ones for me ?

[Dirtcrasher]

Honestly, I've never fouled a 4 stroke plug.... They last forever and if they run rich I just clean them with a SS brush and crab (lol carb) cleaner and there good....

[ThinktwiceZ71]

hmm i will have to try that tommorow lol , i got about 30 used ngk DR8ES-L 's out back in my shed , and about 10 Champion RA8HC's . The champions seem to work better for me for some reason.

the last thing i tried tonight was 138 main jet , 2nd clip on needle , 42 pilot jet , and 1-1/2 turns out on mixture screw. Would not idle unless i have it some gas and it was backfireing some. I had this thing running great this afternoon i don't know why i even messed with it.

what are the symptoms of a bad clutch , or clutches ? It ran good idled great and started up easy after i redid everything , but it was hard to take off , like a low end sputter , it would stall alot taking off i had to give it alot of gas to take off or it would stall , but idled great all on it's own. I figured i needed to adjust something and i forgot where i was in my settings. i just don't know if it is the clutches making it stall like that on take off , of if it was the needing a bigger pilot . So i experimented and i lost lol.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

what is a good starting point for me to start with tommorow ?

i have a new DG RCM 2 exhaust and a moose air filter.

i have a 138 main jet , and a 140 , i have a 42 , and a 45 pilot jet. where should i start , and what position should i put the needle in ? and how about the mixture screw ? i have a hard time telling if it is backfiring and not idleing because it is rich , or if it is lean. How do i know which one it is ? so i can adjust the mixture screw if it won't idle ?

[ThinktwiceZ71]

here is a exhaust pic of it

[ThinktwiceZ71]

alright i got it running again , but it's really weak compression , it idles good , you can drive it , but it's only a matter of time till something blows up in it. I am not going to take that chance , the engine is comming out today and is going to get a new top end .

I did a compression test and it said 30 at most and then on 5-6 kicks , nothing , it read 0 .

So i am going to tear into it and i'll let ya know what i find. Wish my luck....pics will be included.

[AutoXer]

are you sure you don't want to get a second opinion on the compression? 30psi wouldn't run. Is it smoking real bad?

[ThinktwiceZ71]

well engine is out , head and jug are off . Cylinder looks fantastic , i can't feel any marks or see any , plus i can still see alot of cross hatching on the cylinder. Piston looks great, no nics on top rings look good , i took a ring off the piston and put it evenly in cylinder and my ring end gap is .056 inches and service limit is .022 inches , so my rings are way over on the service limit. My piston on the other hand is in spec to the cyliner wall. so what should i do ? hone and new rings ? or bore first oversize at shop and new piston and rings ?

[ThinktwiceZ71]

it still has original piston , plus i did find out something kool today , i have a 85 350x with a 86 350x motor !

[ThinktwiceZ71]

ok as promised here are the pics of the engine teardown.:postwhore

[ThinktwiceZ71]

here is one more

[ThinktwiceZ71]

there is no ridge on top of the cylinder either.

[Dirtcrasher]

Looks like it's been apart before with the red form-a-gasket on the head. But the journals and valves look great.

Cylinders wear egg shaped, you'd have to have someone measure it to be sure as to how worn it is. It will cost you about 200$ to do a bore, piston kit and gaskets etc.

Nice light motor huh :lol: was it fun taking it out :D

[ThinktwiceZ71]

LOL smart ass , not too bad , sure as hell wasn't like my 200s tho lol , getting out was the easy part , getting it back in is what i am not looking forward to. There is a very reputable machine shop 30 miles from here that all the dealers recommend. I called the honda , polaris , kawi dealers , and they all recommend them. Plus to bore, hone , and fit piston to exact manufacturer's specs is only $30.00. The red crap was from me , i took the cover off when i first bought it to check the timing. it will be much neater once it is back together. but it was taken apart once already , because the dowels for the head to jug where not in there.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

i also noticed that when i took the clutch cable off , the guy put like 6 small washers on the cable to pull it out more , what is the deal with that ? I am guessing my clutches need to be replaced ?

[factoryX]

I am guessing your cable needs to be replaced...

[AutoXer]

wiseco 10.25:1 is what i am going with in my 200x they also offer that for the 350x in std 81mm 81.5mm or 82mm depending how much you need to bore

[Twilight]

How did it run on 30psi? Do you mean 130? Engines like this need about 100 to run.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

oh no no ......i had 70 psi in it , put oil in cylinders and i got 150 ......but i ran it some today and idled good , and then it died , i did a compression test on it again and it read 30 the highest and then sometimes nothing registered. I know i can't believe it either. I had a fealing something was wrong tho , because while kicking it over , only once in a while would i actually feal compression , alot of times i felt nothing . Cylinder looks good , piston looks good , crank feels good , nice and smooth and tight, but rings are way out of spec , i just gotta wait till i get the funds to put wiseco piston and top end rebuild , and the money for the machine shop.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220384562580

i just bought my new piston kit on ebay .

Wiseco 350x kit , 81.5 (.50 oversize) for $69.00 shipped

10.25 High compression piston ! Sweet

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Nice score, thats about half price!!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

I sure thought it was a sweet deal myself !

[ThinktwiceZ71]

alright guys , cylinder is bored / honed , guy even did my ring end gaps for me . I have my new honda base gasket , clutch cover gasket , some new dowel pins the cylinder o-ring , my barnett clutch kit i just need to wait till friday for my cylinder head gasket(dealer forgot to order it) and the correct barnett springs for my application.

My question is this....when i install my cylinder and my piston and put everything back together , do i put a little lock tight on the 6 cylinder head bolts/ caps / nuts ?

And secondly , it says to retorque everything after break in , well does that mean i need to take the valve cover off the machine and retorque them , or will it be ok the first time ? i just wanna make sure i do what is necessary , thanks - Art

i mean....do ya really take that cover off and redo the 6 head bolts ?

[Dirtcrasher]

It's what they want.....

Not real hard either, but yes it is a pain in the butt.

The only crap I ever loctite is stuff that if it comes loose can kill you or cause allot of damage. Such as a crank nut, the 4 or 5 clutch spring bolts and the rear axle nut.

Be very careful with that head, READ THE SERVICE MANUAL!! Too many guys use too much threebond or equivalent and if you put too much or put it in the wrong areas, you'll lack oil to something and seize the cam up.

You'll also find out about the steps and torquing sequence blah blah blah.

Did you replace the cam chain and or guides too??

You'll survive, no big deal but when you have that stuff apart is when you need to get the little stuff up to snuff that matters and of course, I too reuse anything that is within spec.

Good luck, keep us posted.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

guides have no wear in them , i brought them to the honda dealer and even had them check those , we're all good there. Chain is in great shape also , and all honestly i'll tear it apart this summer again once i get back to work to replace chain and guides (i just don't have the money to do that right now). I got a few hundred into this already with a tight budget.

I am beyond pissed off right now tho at the guy i bought the barnett clutch kit from on ebay. It said NEW never used blah blah , and it came today fedex and it has oil all over the clutches , black stuff smears off them if i touch them and some of the steels are blued. I fired him an email demanding a full refund plus shipping and handleing and he will pay for return shipping. I am fumeing over this right now. I already have my barnett spring kit ordered , so once i get my money refunded i'll prolly just have the honda dealer order me the honda fibers.

How the heck do i tell if they are new or used ? How do i tell if he used them , or just oiled them ? Thing that makes me wanna give him the bennefit of the doubt is that he has a 100% positive feedback and has sold over 2,000 items.

ugh.....trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailprotrailpro people these days.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

if i take some pictures of the fibers and steels can some1 tell me if they are new or used ?

[The Goat]

servicehonda.com for the steels and fibers. they'll beat the snot out of your local dealer in price.

[hrc200x]

Maybe he presoaked them in oil so they'd be ready to install? I usually let the fibers soak in oil for 24 hours before install. The honda manual gives specs that the plates are supposed to be at, that wouldn't tell you if they were new or not, just tell you if they're wore down at all.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well I am not gonna even try em , I had a friend look at them and he said they look new , and the got emailed me back and said he does that so they are ready to install. A buddy of mine is going to buy the kit from me and ill get the honda fibers and use my barnett springs I ordered! Or are the barnett fibers better than the honda ones?

[The Goat]

honda fibers cost more...but last 20 years...that should explain it.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

yeah i can get them from my local honda dealer for $9.50 a piece , and my steels are in great shape , no warpage. Barnett springs .

I hear great things about the honda oem fibers , and steels with barnett springs , i just thought $45 for the barnett springs , friction discs and steels was a hell of a deal.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Or should i use the oem fibers , barnett steels and springs ? because the barnett one's seem rougher , and my oem steels are really slick. Or do i just scuff the oem steels up with some sandpaper like everyone talks about ?

[Dirtcrasher]

Why are the steels blue?? Because they got hot.... Not good.....

" I oil them so they are ready to install" :lol: 5 minutes in oil is all you need. He sounds like a clown..... Let me tell ya, lots of fiber plates LOOK new.....

Thumpertalk had great prices on a complete Barnett kit and I run them in my 200 and 350 with zero issues. I am also a HUGE fan of all OEM honda clutches. But, when I built a 12:1 race gas 200X motor, I felt I should try a clutch supposedly designed for that.....

Maybe someone should post up in the "read this" threads and see what those guys ran during a race season. I'd think they'd have the lowdown :D

[ThinktwiceZ71]

yeah , a buddy of mine owns a 86 250r and he said he'd give me the $56 i paid for the whole kit. It looks good , i just don't know . i am still up in the air about just trying them and if they don't work at all then my loss ya know. i don't know , thing that really sucks is if i order the oem clutches tommorow i won't have them till next week , i honestly think i will order the oem clutches anyways , install these and have the oem ones for a backup set when these one's give out.

i don't know tho lol i'll prolly change my mind by morning , i'll sleep on it

[ThinktwiceZ71]

new base gasket is on , bored/honed cylinder is on and new wiseco piston and rings are on. Just waiting for my head gasket and clutch springs and i can finish it off.

On a side note the wiseco directions weren't too specific about piston rings.

it said for the wavy ring to make sure the ends touch and don't overlap. (i did that) and that the touching ends should face either exhaust or intake side. (i chose exhaust side. then the top and bottom small rings should be 180 off above the wrist pin ends. sandwiching the wavy ring (did that)

i know what ring is the top ring , and which ring is the second ring , and which way they face up or down , but it doesn't say where the gap is supposed to be placed ? so i made sure the top and second ring gaps are 180 apart from each other , and that they aren't above the oil ring gaps ......is that correct ? i made sure the gaps are spaced out as evenly as possible

[Dirtcrasher]

You can't download the manual to refer to? Those gaps are very important to place correctly.... There is a nice picture in the book or maybe someone can scan it for you if you can't D-load it.

The shiney ring is the top ring, but all the end gaps have to staggered and it's easy to overlap the oil ring which is very bad. Any markings go UP.

Many times I put the piston and rings into the cylinder upside down and then slide the assembly over the studs and insert the wrist pin at that point. Just have one clip in place ahead of time and protect the lower case opening with rags in case you lose the wrist pin clip.

Lots of guys jam the rings, cock the cylinder and use screwdrivers to force the rings into the bore. When it's upside down, it's a piece of cake to get everything in place with just your fingers.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

i just got off the phone with wiseco , i explained to them how i have the rings , they said that is fine , as long as they are stagered , which mine are , then i am fine. He did say the second ring the N had to be facing up and i do have it that way. So i am good. After looking at the manual image with the rings on it , mine is 99% like that , maybee a little positioning , but the spacing is the same.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

i found that picture , and the more i looked at it the more i don't feel right about my rings , i am gonna put them exactly the way the honda picture shows them , i don't want to get it running and find out "well i THOUGHT i put them in right" ...this way i'll know. Thanks Steve :beer

plus i called wiseco back again and got a different person , he said those directions are general and basically for automotive installations. He said go with the honda directions on the rings.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

hey steve i am looking at that picture in the honda manual and i can't figure out how the rings go , because ot the angle of the picture.

is the top ring end gap facing the intake side , the second ring 120 degrees counterclockwise from the top ring , the very bottom ring end gap facing the exhaust , and the top oil ring above it 3/4 inches or more counterclockwise ?

where are the ends of the wavy oil ring sandwhiched by the top and bottom oil rings ?

i got the image , i just want to make sure i am reading it correctly

[ThinktwiceZ71]

here is a pic i took this afternoon on my blackberry.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

view illustration #1 on page 3 should i use this for my wiseco set up , seeing as it's a wiseco piston , or the honda ring setup ?

http://www.wiseco.com/PDFs/Manuals/RingEndGap.pdf

[ThinktwiceZ71]

engine's all together , installed in frame. Everything is back together 100%

i got it fired up and it idled some but dies upon giving it any gas at all . i was going to mess with the mixture screw but i don't know what direction to go.

i am gonna empty the tank completly , fill it with fresh 93 , and clean the carb again to make sure there is no junk in there just in case.

should i start with the factory jetting settings to get it to at least run ? even tho i got this wiseco piston , and full DG exhaust ?

i tried the 140 main jet , 42 pilot , and 1-3/4 mixture screw and it dies when giving it some gas. ( timing is dead nuts too , i put the piston at TDC and lined the marks up with the top of the head, and adjusted the valves)

the gas was 2 weeks old 87 , don't know if that makes a difference , and it was an older plug.

i do know one thing tho.....holy crap with this new bore/hone/ new wiseco and rings , it's alot harder to kick over now lol.

[Dirtcrasher]

Hopefully well get you figured out soon bud..................................

At least it's all fresh now :D

[ThinktwiceZ71]

yeah , i am sure it is just either a bad plug / not so fresh gas / carb with wrong settings.

i hope i get it figured out soon too , my right foot can't take much more useless kicks. lol.

i am gonna go try again , and homefully get it going . If i have to i'll take the valve cover off tommorow and double check the timing if all else fails.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

hey this is a stupid question , but are the timing marks on the cam sprocket centered ? like if you had the lines level would there be the same amount of cam sprocket above the lines as below ?

[AutoXer]

with that higher compression you should up the octane (would still run on 87 but it would spark nock)

[ThinktwiceZ71]

k - i am gonna try it , and idea where i should start with the jetting for this ?

stock is 138 main jet , 42 pilot , and 1-3/4 mixture screw setting.

with a DG exhaust and Wiseco high compression , i don't know really where a good starting point is.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

fresh 93 gas , new plug , cleaned carb , NOTHING , it will sputter like it wants to fire , fire for 1-2 seconds and die , i am going to take the valve cover off tonight and check the timing all over again , and after that check the valve clearance.

i deff have a great spark , fresh gas , and great compression.

i am guessing timing , or valve adjustment is the culprit. How, i don't friggin know.

[Dirtcrasher]

Your poor bastardz...... :lol: no offence, I can just read when people are lost and it's a chitty position to be in. I just feel bad that some of you guys don't seem to have a starting point for troubleshooting.....

Th biggest thing guys is CONFIDENCE!! If you aren't sure about certain things you will go OUT OF YOUR MIND wondering what you did wrong and posting won't fix what was possibly overlooked in the 1st place. If YOU know you timed it right, assembled it right and used the right parts, the rest should be chicken. BUT, when you second guess ring gaps, gasket sealer, torque specs, fuel etc etc etc, you get LOST very fast! Adjust each valve to .003 cold and don't worry about that again until it's broken in.

It all starts at square one. Get square one done correctly and the rest of the stuff (aside from jetting) falls into place.

The timing lines are NOT level as the motor does not sit level, but most timing marks are at 12:00 or LEVEL and in the same plain as the heads flat surface.

Your name is "THINKTWICE" so you live by that my friend :D Don't get all confused and crazy thinking about all these crazy problems. Fuel, compression and spark at the right time always works, but may need fine tuning.

Wasn't this 10.5:1?? Then it will be just fine on pump gas and not do stupid crap on the initial start up and break in time.

Make sure it's timed right.

Make sure it has good compression.

Make sure it is getting the fuel bowl filled.

THEN deal with jetting and or other issues....

[ThinktwiceZ71]

I have confidence its just depression is kicking in too. I double checked timing tonight , timing is dead nuts, fuel is getting to cylinder and I have great spark and compression, tomorrow I will recheck the woodruff key, because I am wondering if that broke again. It was broken the last time when i first got it and it was doing the same thing it is now , start a little , and die , start a little and die. I checked the key LAST time and it was sheared. So i am going to pull the flywheel again today just to see if that is the culprit.

I have cleaned carb , all settings back to factory specs , have great compression , have great spark , timing is dead nuts. I am just wondering if the key broke/sheared giving me a spark at the wrong time even tho the engine piston and cam are timed right.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well keyway is sheared ! What causes them to do that? This is 2 in 2 weeks

[ThinktwiceZ71]

She lives!!!!! I need to adjust my idle / mixture some but she runs ! It was the keyway sheared that did it ! It takes a little bit to idle down if you blip the throttle tho! I just got done doing my first warm up ocasionally blipping throttle till it warms up. Now I gotta let it kool down stone cold abd do it a few more times and hopefully break it in slowly riding it tommorow! Thanks guys

[AutoXer]

WOW CONGRATS thats awsome it feals so good when you bring them to life ... I sheared my keyway too so don't feal too bad

[ThinktwiceZ71]

well i just put in my 45 pilot jet and adjusted the mixture some , still kinda takes a little bit to idle down but not nearly as much. I let it idle for a little while , blipping the throttle and i took it for a light 5-6 minute ride. I LOVE IT ...... it's awesome , runs perfect , no noises , great power , i only got up to gears 3-4 nice and slow , made sure to keep a load on the engine , and down shift to do the same like that guy said to seat the rings . Wasn't beating it by any means , but making the rings stay forced against the cylinder. She is cooling down right now , but once it is cooled down i am gonna go retorque the head bolts and clean the valve cover , put new sealant on it , and seal it back up.

I appreciate everyone who helped me on this , gave me advice , pointers , and even criticism. I couldn't have kept my sanity level without you!:w00t:

3WW Rocks ! :Bounce

[ThinktwiceZ71]

plug is kinda like coffee with alot of milk in it , too light for me. How do i get it darker ?

main i went up 1 to 140 , pilot i went up 1 from to 45

needle is in middle clip.

it will idle up every now and then by itself so i think i might have an air leak but i am not sure where yet. i'll have to spray the carb cleaner all over once its running.

will moving the needle richen it up throughout the whole throttle ? so if i raised lowered the clip 1 essentially raising the needle will that help ? or do i need a even bigger main jet ?

[Dammit!]

The clip will not effect the whole throttle. None of the adjustments will. Read the jetting sticky in the help section if you haven't done so yet.

And careful spraying carb cleaner on there. It eats paint.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

so i need a bigger main jet then ? i already went up 1 , so i should try 1 more up to 142 , what about the needle clip ? lower it a clip as well ?

anyone know what size drill bit a 142 main jet takes ? i have a precision drill press i'll try trilling out one of my spare jets i don't use until my larger jets come in.

[Dirtcrasher]

Your asking for trouble using drill bit, thats more ADVANCED jetting for guys that have messed with it allot. In some cases a 1-60 index kit jumps .003-.004 which is too much for fine tuning.

It's how I do it, but not everyone should follow that lead as they can get more lost.

Don't make more than one jetting change at a time, it won't help you narrow things down.......

[ThinktwiceZ71]

alright man thanks , here is what i am looking at tho ,

doing the starting and idleing , blipping throttle some yesterday the plug was black dry carbon colored.

driving it some today maybee 5-10 minutes with a different plug the plug is really light light coffee color with alot of milk.

so i am guessing it is in the midrange that needs being richer so i will try with the needle a clip or 2 and see what that does.

thanks steve

[Dirtcrasher]

IT suks, I know.... You have to warm up the motor, yank that plug, put in a new plug and immediately do a WOT fast run, yank in the clutch, kill it and see what the plug says....

If you are rich on the bottom, middle or top and ride it around for awhile, a plug chop shows you nearly nothing. It just says "hey bud, I'm rich SOMEWHERE!!??"

What I'm getting at is that a plug can be completely carbon covered but you don't know what part of the carb it's from and it has to be narrowed down.

Even that needle, only ONE clip at a time! You'll just get F'd up and go crazy.........

I myself have enough main jets that I can play with them all I want. But if you only have a couple, then you have to buy a few sizes up from where you are IF you know the main is lean.

I'm not gonna go back and read 9 pgs right now.... I can't remember what the carb issue was, but if not much changed, then usually a main jet change and an air screw change will get it very close. It's when guys go 12:1, race cam, larger carb, open lid, aftermarket exhaust that it gets allot more difficult to dial in. Thats why my 86/87 200X was so hard to tune in, too many mods to even have a starting point.......

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well stock main is 138, I got 140, stock pilot jet is 42 , I got 45 I have stock needle positionin 3rd clip wiseco 10.5:1 piston , full dg exhaust system , and moose air filter. Still doesn't want to idle down really well even tho I put a bigger pilot in it , I am gonna do some more adjustments and see if that will work out. I am going to try and lower the needle a position and see if that richens up the mid range some , before I try any more jets. I am also gonna check for any air leaks

[ThinktwiceZ71]

alright here is what i did today . I lowered the clip on the needle 1 , so it raised the needle up a little bit . no improvement really . i can screw the air/fuel mixture screw all the way in - 2 turns out with no real change in throttle idleing back down. i checked for an air leak in the oring at the intake , and the boot , nothing . (i even put a new oring in , and even went as far to put a fine fine amount of rtv silicone on the outside of the intake where the intake and the head meet (that little crack you see) just to make 100% sure it seals.

now when i give it some gas , it will not idle back down , so it makes it hard to jet this properly. once i give it gas and it doesn't idle back down , i will screw that screw by the throttle in some and it will idle down , so i dunno if maybee the throttle is sticking or what. it feels smooth.

i know i need to do plug chops eventually with a new plug , but right now i am just trying to get it to idle / and idle back down to a normal idle after i rev it up some like it's supposed to. So far i am not having much luck.

[Dirtcrasher]

Start by taking the black cover off and see if the throttle is returning. Just remember that the 350X is a 2 piece linkage so to speak and the upper portion can stick even if the lower portion settles on the idle screw. Take the cover off, make sure it's clean and just look at it an get your fingers in there and hopefully you'll see what I mean......

If the airscrew does nothing, it usually means that the pilot is off quite a bit. Dammits sticky explains it in more depth.....

Just like when a clutch screws up: Is it the lever, the cable, the linkage etc etc..... WE have to find where that problem is.

I find those problems by starting at square one, which in your case is the carb itself with no cable attached.

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Well I think I got it steve , I totally recleaned carb, all pilots and jets , I lubed up the throttle cable , and under the cover the end of the throttle cable wasn't in that hole , it was wedged in between the lever and the side of the box! It idles right back down now , I just don't know what thing fixed it ! Once I get the idle and throttle response fixed all the way I will check my plug chop! Thanks steve

[ThinktwiceZ71]

Still doing it some , I took throttle cable off and its really ruff! So I am guessing the cable is sticking some , slides and everything in carb is good! I'll order a new cable and see if that fixes the rest of my problem!

[ThinktwiceZ71]

yeah so i cut the end off my throttle cable today , because there is no way i will ride it like this ( that's all i need is for the dam thing to get stuck on me) i pulled the inner cable out and there is a 2-3 inch part where the cable is all frayed and metal pieces stick out against inside the cable . I think that is why my idle is so finicky. so i ordered a new throttle cable from dennis kirk , some new grips , a 48 pilot in case i need it , and a 142 , and a 145 main jet in case i need those . I'll have that stuff tuesday , kinda sucks i wanted to ride this weekend with my buddy matt , oh well , i'll just ride one of this 200's :beer

[ThinktwiceZ71]

here is what the frayed part looked like

[AutoXer]

that could cause some issues .... the things you can run into with these old bikes. Oh well it gave you a chance to get grips lol

[ThinktwiceZ71]

yeah i got these renthal one's ....i liked the way they looked ! :beer