Synthetic oil in Big Red?

[mikeee]

Just got an 85' Big Red that was well taken care of. I was wondering if I could change to Amzoil sythetic or if I should stick to conventional motor oil. Any ideas?
Thanks, Mike

[Vealmonkey]

Beware, sometimes the synthetics can mess with the older clutch fibers making them so slippery that your clutch will slip to the point that the trike won't move. Just be careful and be forewarned.

[TravEX]

I would stick with conventional 10/40.

[Vealmonkey]

If you keep your oil filter and filter screen clean and your oil changed regularly, you shouldn't have much problem.

[hublake]

I don't know anything about synthetic oils, but have used regular10/40 oil for the 24 years I have had my BR and never had any problems with it. I would stick to conventional oil.

[Daddio]

Conventional oil for sure. On an older machine the synthetics won't keep the seals supple and you will end up with oil leaks. :(

[Cottonwood]

I'm not sure about the synthetic vs. conventional oil either, I have a friend who after he rebuilds an engine, with new seals and everything, he will only run synthetic in it from the start.

I had another question to add and didn't want to start a new thread since I saw this one, but don't want to hijack this thread either, so feel free to ignore if it is...

But what is the difference between the ATV/Motorcycle oil and Automotive oil. The API is SE or SF for the trike, but for my truck/car it's different. Whats the dif, and will it cause problems to run the same oil in my trike that I run in my truck/car?

[topless]

If you don't know anything about oils, just say so.
The only difference between synthetic oil and mineral oil is one is made in a factory and one is refined from crude oil. A full synthetic is better lubrication( due to fewer impurities and more uniform molecules), and lasts longer because it resists oxidation better (same reasons).

It's not the oil that screws up the clutches it's the additives. Do not run any oil that isn't designed for wet clutches, mineral or synthetic. Most new automotive oils will screw up your clutches. If it doesn't have the SAE motorcycle designation, then don't use it.
I run Yamalube 15-50 in mine, it's a full synthetic, designed for motorcycle wet clutches. It was recommended to me by guys who build and race everything from motocross to drag bikes.

Keeping a good quality motorcycle oil in your trike is all that's necessary. You have to decide which one you want to use, but make sure you use one that is designed for wet clutches.

[Coaltrain]

I run chainsaw bar oil in mine. The sticky additive they put in it so it sticks to your chain really helps my clutches hook-up. Barks the tires on pavement every time I shift all the through 5th gear.

[Coaltrain]

Just kidding on the bar oil.

[Cottonwood]

Topless, thanks, I'm pretty ignorant to this stuff. Was never around this at all growing up and just found out I really enjoy working on my own stuff. So I'm slowly learning as I go, I probably have and will ask a lot of stupid questions, but once I learn something I've got it.

Mikeee, sorry for jumping into your thread like that.

[mikeee]

Thanks for all the info, I think I will stck to conventional motorcyle oil. This machine is in to good of shape to chance it. Besides its been run on conventional for 23 yrs anyway. Thanks for the info.

[Daddio]

Thanks for all the info, I think I will stck to conventional motorcyle oil. This machine is in to good of shape to chance it. Besides its been run on conventional for 23 yrs anyway. Thanks for the info.
Exactly...........

[Dirtcrasher]

I have NOT heard good stuff when people change from regular to synthetics....

BUT, what does bother me is the post not too long ago about some additive that is being cut down or completely removed from out conventional oil.

I have been beating the snot out of my 350X for 3 years on 12$ per 5 quarts Valvoline and I still have no smoking or power loss. But, I do change it often and do the filter every other oil change. My 250SX, it's been 9 years of beating it now.....

Warming an engine up before beating on it is also very very important!!!! and something ALLOT of people overlook.

[MonroeMike]

[QUOTE=Dirtcrasher;715117]
BUT, what does bother me is the post not too long ago about some additive that is being cut down or completely removed from out conventional oil./QUOTE]

Zinc (zddp). I've been buying Valvoline 4-Stroke Motor Oil since I read it.

http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=76

Here's the post I think you are referring to.

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=92283

[topless]

Problems with changing from mineral oil to synthetic date back into the '70's when Mobil 1 first came out. It was an ester based oil and chemically attacked the standard gasket materials used back then. (cork & rubber, neoprene were the most common) The most common synthetic base used today is PAO (poly alpha olefin). It is completely compatible with any mineral oil. The more expensive oil will use POA with a little ester mixed in because the ester softens seals & gaskets. It also cleans better by breaking down carbon deposits.
The first fill with synthetics will usually get dark quickly because of the cleaning. This goes for any motor, not just trikes.
I run synthetics in everything I own, even my lawnmower.
One thing, break in a new motor with mineral oil, synthetics will keep the rings from seating.

[Taiser]

As a former mechanic, airplane mind you, I can say, with good experience DO NOT USE SYNTHETIC in auto clutch trikes. You are asking for trouble. Synthetics are not compatible with the clutches, as an earlier poster said. It will run fine in the short run but you are going to be in for an expensive repair.

Also someone mentioned that they use synthetic from day one on an engine, another big mistake! Synth is so effective that you will never break your engine in properly. In fact many airplane engines will not warranty them if you use it from day one. Standard is to run the engine for 50-100 hours, then switch to synthetics. Same applies on farm equipment (tractors and such). If you keep an eye on the oil levels and do regular changes, a trike motor should outlive you, even on dyno oil.

[The Goat]

130k on the dash in my scion mobil1 5w30 or 10w30. Mobil1 filter. Changing every 7500-10000 miles my engine is nice and my oil comes out a dark brown at the worst. I drve really hard... 3k and up is where the tach lives, foraying into the red zone more often than not.

Running vr1 for breakin because of god reviews then switching to full synthetic mobil1 motorcycle oil.

I'll never run anything but that post break in, in anything.

[topless]

We have 5 auto clutch trikes and run synthetic in all of them. Ran it in my CT90, auto clutch until I put a Lifan 140cc in it.
Synthetics or mineral oil do not make any difference, if it has the correct additive package for wet clutches. The term synthetic only tells whether it was ever crude oil or not.

[rdlsz24]

High end cars (Corvette, Viper, etc) come with Mobil 1 from the factory, so it can't be too bad for breaking in an engine!

But I am one that uses dino until the first change. I did that in my 04 GTO. Switched to Mobil 1 at 3000 miles.

Rob

[MonroeMike]

Another note I found pertaining to ZDDP

Motor Oil Warning!! from ED ISKENDERIAN RACING CAMS

Important message regarding "break-in" protection for all high performance flat-tappet hydraulic and solid lifter camshafts.Not all motor oils are created equal. Unfortunately, when installing a high performance camshaft, just any oil will not give your new cam installation sufficient protection during the critical break-in period (the mating-in of virgin metal surfaces). This is because government regulators have mandated (as of January '04) the complete elimination of the critical anti-wear additive package (zinc/phosphorus) from all "SM" rated (street legal) motor oils to protect catalytic converters. Isky recommends the use of only the following motor oils for maximum cam lobe and lifter protection before and after the break-in period because they are the only conventional mineral based oils available with generous levels of the zinc/phosphorous additive package:

•Brad Penn Penn-Grade 1 **The very best of all in our opinion and the only oil refined from 100% Pennsylvania crude.**Because we believe the Brad-Penn product to be superior to all other oils, we have enclosed a product brochure for your convenience.

"Special Note Regarding Synthetic Oils** Please note, Isky does not recommend the use of synthetic oils with any flat- tappet camshaft-especially during break-in. If you must use synthetic oil after break-in, there are only two brands we are comfortable recommending. They are Amzoil (Red) Racing Oil and Joe Gibbs Performance Racing Oil. Both contain zinc and phosphorous and will fare well AFTER break-in has been successfully completed. Other synthetics, especially those with very low viscosity index numbers (i.e. Ow-15, 5w-20 etc.) have very low film strength and arc not designed for, nor should they be employed in any flat-tappet cam installation.

[topless]

I'm not sure what Isky cams has to do with running a synthetic oil in a Big Red.
I'll guarantee you that no professional bike race team is running a mineral oil.
Doesn't mean all mineral oil is bad, just means synthetics are superior at lubrication and resistance to heat breakdown.
None of that matters if the wrong additives are in the oil. Modern automotive oils are just wrong for any wet clutch, period, end of story.

[MonroeMike]

I posted it because it pertains to the additive zddp (zinc) that is important for these engines we are using and is being reduced to a level in some oils (including some synthetics) that makes the cams wear faster. I would want to know that, if I was choosing an oil for my big red, synthetic or not.

[Taiser]

Modern automotive oils are just wrong for any wet clutch, period, end of story.

EXACTLY!!!!

[topless]

I posted it because it pertains to the additive zddp (zinc) that is important for these engines we are using and is being reduced to a level in some oils (including some synthetics) that makes the cams wear faster. I would want to know that, if I was choosing an oil for my big red, synthetic or not.

Again, you're mixing automotive oils in with motorcycle oils.
Stay with oils made for bikes and you're covered. If I were dealing with a flat tappet cam in a car motor, I'd run Shell Rotella (diesel) oil or a racing oil to protect my camshaft, exactly as you pointed out. But, I wouldn't run any of those in my trikes or motorcycles because they'd screw up the clutches. The days of going to Walmart and buying a case of oil to run in everything you own, are over.

[The Goat]

1 55 gallon drum of valvoline vr1 from the local napa store is 725$....at 2.5 quarts per change in the 350x... and 4 changes a year...that's what....85 years worth of oil. lol.

couldn't get the synthetic through them in a drum...

[MonroeMike]

I see there's a difference in zddp in valvoline oils. The two I was looking at are the ATV oil (0.102) and the 4-stroke motorcycle oil (0.112). If zinc impregnates itself into the rockers and cam to help prevent wear, wouldn't the latter be better?

I see the VR-1 is not recommended for wet clutches.

[The Goat]

valvoline vr1...or any oil that is rated for gear shear (motor cycle oil) and still has zink in it.

that's coming from people who mainly MX and Drag....

I'd say if their clutches are holding up...our trail rigs will do just fine.

[oscarmayer]

Here's what i found in a google search.

here are the main differences in a nutshell.

"What is the difference between a synthetic oil and a mineral oil?
A lubricant is said to be " mineral " when it is based upon refined crude oil. Synthetic lubricants are manufactured through chemical reactions taking place between various chemical components.
The process for obtaining a synthetic lubricant is therefore more complex and more costly. Nevertheless, synthetic oils have superior properties, including greater resistance to oxidation; this allows their use under very severe conditions (high temperatures) and also results in increased times between oil changes.
Semi-synthetic oils can be obtained by mixing mineral and synthetic oils. This produces, at a more reasonable cost, properties that are superior to mineral oils since they retain the high performance characteristics of the synthetic base.
Many synthetic oils are silicon based polymers rather than carbon based. Silicon has similar properties to carbon in these systems, but sometimes provide better properties at high temperatures such as in a car. Silicone is used on many substitutes for carbon such as in glues, caulks and gaskets.

Both methods take energy to give the final product. Synthetics are probably more expensive based on the cost of the raw materials. Crude oil is cheap. Also note that regular motor oil can have synthetic components added. The term synthetic is used when the major component is synthetic. "

[The Goat]

I could preach about the lower operating temps I see on synthetic vs when I was running regular...but I doubt I'd be believed. lol

[Taiser]

Nobody is saying that synthetic is not far superior to dino oil..it is, but in our applications, in 25 year old machines, it's just not a good idea. You may have some luck on your side, maybe you've upgraded to modern day parts, but if you have an all original 25 year old trike, it's just not a good idea to use synthetic stuff over a good quality fossil oil! :D

[topless]

Nobody is saying that synthetic is not far superior to dino oil..it is, but in our applications, in 25 year old machines, it's just not a good idea. You may have some luck on your side, maybe you've upgraded to modern day parts, but if you have an all original 25 year old trike, it's just not a good idea to use synthetic stuff over a good quality fossil oil! :D

Let me explain something. I've been a distributor of oils since 1993. I've been to several schools about oils and can pick up a phone and talk to lubrication engineers, anytime.
There is no difference in the hydrocarbon molecule used in oil whether it's a mineral oil or a synthetic oil. The difference is how it got to be usable oil lubricant. Crude oil is pumped out of the ground and run through a refinery, separating it by molecular weight into many different products. Everything from butane to asphalt comes from crude oil. The weight is based on the length of the hydrocarbon chain. If you take a perfect 30w molecule from crude oil and a man-made (synthetic) 30w molecule, they are identical. There is no difference what so ever in any way you care to examine them.
The difference is the percentage of flawed hydrocarbon chains, flawed meaning less than perfect molecules. Mineral has a significantly higher percentage than synthetics, because synthetics are manufactured, not refined. In the refining process they accept a range of molecular weights to be a 30w oil (like a 28w to a 35w). When you manufacture the molecule, the range is much narrower (29-1/2 to 30-1/2) because you have control of the molecular building process. It's that advantage that synthetic oils have over mineral oils, and why they lubricate better and last longer.
Additives are the rest of the story-cleaners, anti-oxidation, load bearing, anti-shearing, and multi-viscosity, are used to help the base oil perform better.
Castrol was originally caster bean oil. Grease was wax mixed with oil to keep it in place better and more water resistant.
The reason they loved Pennsylvania crude oil so much back in the early 1900's, was because it came out of the ground a light tan color and could be used with just filtering it.

[Taiser]

That's a great tutorial and good info but you're overstating the case. The reason why you should not use it is the same reason I'm not allowed to use it during the break in of an piston engine on an airplane...it's TOO efficient!

In an airplane, it won't allow the rings to seat properly and increases the break in time...by quite a margin not to mention a bunch of other possible problems, like increased oil consumption...very VERY bad in an airplane, especially on a longer flight!!!

In older auto-clutch motors, it can, not always, but CAN cause decreased friction in the auto clutch, which leads to slippage and generally crappy performance. Again, this does NOT always happen, but is not unheard of! Some newer bike engines, from what I've heard, also can suffer from these problems. Some mid 90's Honda CBR's apparently don't like it either, in those cases it's the clutches themselves that slip too much, but I've heard they were beefed up and the problems went away.

So as a mechanic, I say it's not worth the problems it could cause. I'd use it anywhere else though, just not during break-ins. Anyhoo, that's my $0.02...we can argue about oil until the cows come home, it's an old argument anyways! :beer

[The Goat]

I'm just going to throw this out there...

If you're competent enough to rebuild your own engine, you're competent enough to chooose your own oil.

New seals...new bearings...and a new bore necessitates a lower weight castor oil for breakin and then a switch to a synthetic compatible with a wet clutch application....

right?

[topless]

Like I said, additives are what makes it work in bikes. I've got a 1970 Honda Sl125 running synthetic oil since 1993, it's original everything. 1978 Honda CT 90, original with synthetic. ATC 70, 110, 185s, 2- 200s, all with synthetic.
It's your bike/trike, run what you want. I wanted to clear up the misconceptions held by many people as to what a synthetic oil is. It's not different than mineral oil, just better.

[mikeee]

OK I finally found some oil. It is Valveolene ATV 10w-40. Says it has additives for wet clutches. I guess this is the right stuff?
Thanks

[rdlsz24]

Yeah it's fine. I use it in my KFX 400 and my trikes.

Rob