350X smokin like a train

[JayP]

Well I took 350X number 2 out to the Brown Mtn, NC OHV trails today and had loads of fun. It is just trails in the mountains, no flats or straightaways. I think it is what you guys call technical riding. I am whipped, that was my first serious trike riding in a while and I forgot how much it works you. I only tipped it over once and that was just from trying to avoid a big mudhole!

The trike has the 'rebuilt' motor from my Ebay purchase; for those of you who have read my project thread you know what I am talking about. The thing runs great, the valves were gettting noisy by the end of the day though and it started to smoke blue out the pipe pretty bad. I doesn't smoke if you are accelerating but when you let off it smokes like crazy. If you let it idle it will not smoke, but when you rev it up as soon as you let off it blows a big blue cloud out and then stops again.

This is supposedly a rebuilt engine so I assume at least new rings. It has great compression. I did use regular automotive oil ASI code SL and not the SE or SF like the book says (I couldnt find any in AUtozone or Advance). It was a little low after a couple hours riding and I added maybe 1/4 quart of Lucas Oil Stabilizer which changed nothing. Any ideas? I know surely MR ATC has seen something like this.

JayP

[Xowner]

Its time to sell it to me ill fix it and take care of it for you1!! :-D

[MR ATC]

if you used a 1/4 of oil in only a couple of hours i would suspect something is wrong even without the smoke. add the smoke to the picture along with the valves. gives me a idea it could be the cam. especially since you stated it was just rebuilt. novice 350X engine builders are not usually aware of the seqence of tightening the head bolts or the tourque values. if this is not done right you end up with the dreaded burned up cam. not saying thats the problem just my first guess based on the info you gave me. could be they never redid the valve seats,seals and or lapped the valves.

[350x'inNY]

Wal-Mart has SE rated oil listed under some no name brand for like 78 cents a quart.... I know this is what the Owners Manual and HONDA Service Manual recommend, but doncha think you get out what you put in???

Bruce

[JayP]

So can we rule out the piston rings since it doesn't smoke on acceeration, just on deceleration?

I understand how the cam could be damaged but that would not explain the smoking. It sure runs good so I just dont think the cam is bad. If the motor is new how long would it be before the valves needed adjusted? Does the break-in get them loose enough to be noisy?

I don't know how the valve seals work on it, is it like on a Chevy V-8? Some sort of o-ring or teflon seal? Is this a likely cause or would it more likely be worn valve guides? The brother of the guy I bought it from is on here sometimes, his name is xingfool. They played me a little on the bidding for the trike on Ebay and told me some other lies, so I don't trust
that this motor was rebuilt by a shop in Iowa like they said. Let me know what other info would be helpful.

Jay

[JayP]

Bruce,
what is your point? I get what I put in? Read the question, I wanted to know if it was a MUST to use SE or SF. I am not being a tight ass on the oil, I am trying to put the right stuff in it. I wanted to know if it was VERY important to put SE or SF in the motor. Funny of all the 'no-names' and the 'names' in Advance and Autozone there was not one with SE or SF.

I will just get some Honda oil and I'll know it is the right one.

[MR ATC]

So can we rule out the piston rings since it doesn't smoke on acceeration, just on deceleration?

I understand how the cam could be damaged but that would not explain the smoking. It sure runs good so I just dont think the cam is bad. If the motor is new how long would it be before the valves needed adjusted? Does the break-in get them loose enough to be noisy?

Jay

if the cam is "damaged" the journals are grinding in the head surface which could be causing the smoke. it will still run strong because the cam lobs are still ok. it could also be the rings i've broken rings before and had a similar problem. what it all really comes down to is dissasembly time

[JayP]

I hear you on that one. disassembly

I guess project number 2 has just been born before number 1 is even out of diapers!!


I know this will pis you off, but I still dont see how the cam grinding in the head causes oil to get in the cylinder and make smoke.

Also what about the right oil and the SE or SF codes? important or just use good motor oil?

Jay

[MR ATC]

I hear you on that one. disassembly

I guess project number 2 has just been born before number 1 is even out of diapers!!


I know this will pis you off, but I still dont see how the cam grinding in the head causes oil to get in the cylinder and make smoke.

Also what about the right oil and the SE or SF codes? important or just use good motor oil?

Jay

i never said that the cam wear would cause oil to get into the cylinder. all i said was it is a possible cause of the smoke.

as far as "right" oil. i run only high quality motorcycle/atv oil. car oil is not designed for motorcycle use. car oil lubricates the motor only and is not designed to lubricate trannsmissions and clutchs. motorcycles and atv's all use the same oil to lubricate the motor,transmission and clutch. therfore they need a oil specially designed for that type of use. i DO NOT recomend any type of full synthetic oil. as it has been shown to cause clutch slipping in extreme conditions. my personal choice for motor oil is BEL-RAY but any good m/c atc oil should be fine.

[JayP]

Maybe I am just stupid, but how can cam wear be a possible cause of the smoke if it is not causing oil to get in the cylinder? How else is smoke created exept oil in the cylinder? I am really stumped on your comment.

Jay

[MR ATC]

ok let me try to explain this...if and i say "if" your cam is burning up you have to metal surfaces that are creating excesive amounts of friction (well above normal) which is then translated to excesive heat. instead of the oil lubricating and cooling the metal the metal is in fact overheating the oil thus braking down its (the oil) protective properties and burning it up thereby creating smoke and oil consuption. the smoke your seeing could very well be the oil your losing. now the smoke has to go somewere to escape. were does it go? into the combustion chamber. how dose it get there? when the exaust valves are open it goes into the cylinder through them. which this also leads me to conclude (based on your decription and the best i can on the internet) that it is not you rings because if it were it would most likley smoke all the time. please remember this is all speculation untill you tear it apart its all guess work and educated guessing on what wrong with your particular motor.

[Dirtcrasher]

Bruce,
what is your point? I get what I put in? Read the question, I wanted to know if it was a MUST to use SE or SF. I am not being a tight arse on the oil, I am trying to put the right stuff in it. I wanted to know if it was VERY important to put SE or SF in the motor. Funny of all the 'no-names' and the 'names' in Advance and Autozone there was not one with SE or SF.

I will just get some Honda oil and I'll know it is the right one.

My 250SX has seen nothing other than a beating every day I rode it for 5 years. Doesn't burn a drop of oil or tick and tons of four stroke power, I have never opened any part of this motor or touched the clutch. I use PEP BOYS Pro Line .75 cents a quart 20/50 cheapo oil and STP oil filters or Honda filters.

Maybe I'm just lucky.

[JayP]

I talked to the Honda dealer guys today and was shown that SE, SF was the standard when the 350X was made but now the standard is SJ. As far as anyone can tell any ASi code 'SJ' oil is basically the same so the theory of using special motorcycle oil for clutch and tranny to be lubed right doesn't really hold water. I still went ahead and got the Honda brand 10W-40 SJ to be safe.

Dirt: I figured it didn't really matter, but I was looking for an explanation of the codes from someone. I know now. I remember putting cheap (then) castrol 20/50 in my old motorcycles as a kid and never had a problem then either. There probably are some advantages to using motorcycle oil as Mr ATC said so I am going with it. Good luck with the pepboy oil in the SX.

Jay

[MR ATC]

I talked to the Honda dealer guys today and was shown that SE, SF was the standard when the 350X was made but now the standard is SJ. As far as anyone can tell any ASi code 'SJ' oil is basically the same so the theory of using special motorcycle oil for clutch and tranny to be lubed right doesn't really hold water. I still went ahead and got the Honda brand 10W-40 SJ to be safe.

Dirt: I figured it didn't really matter, but I was looking for an explanation of the codes from someone. I know now. I remember putting cheap (then) castrol 20/50 in my old motorcycles as a kid and never had a problem then either. There probably are some advantages to using motorcycle oil as Mr ATC said so I am going with it. Good luck with the pepboy oil in the SX.

Jay

Jay it dose hold theroy when held in the proper prospective the asi code is a test that determines the temperature of what it takes to break the oil down. it has nothin to do with how the oil can handle transmission wear or clutch wear. without getting into another oil debate that got me banned before...lol...here is the best way i can explain it with my 20+yrs experiance.

if you run auto oil in the same motor (ex 350X ) then when its time to rebuild you will find all types of sludge in various crevis's in your motor also the wear on the moving parts will be great wheras if you take a identical motor (again a 350X) and tear into it with the same amount of time ( in reality if you use motorcycle oil it will last longer) you will not find the same sludge nor will the moving parts show as much wear.

i am not pulling this out of my trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro. i learned the hard way experiance.
pay the extra money for the oil or pay the extra money with long term motor wear either way its pay it now or pay it later.

[Billy Golightly]

...without getting into another oil debate that got me banned before...lol..


I was JUST getting ready to reply to this topci and say don't let this turn into another oil war, but I think I'll say it again anyways ;-)

[JayP]

MR ATC
I was not doubting you, as I did buy the Honda oil even though I didn't fully understand the ASI deal. I am in agreement that there is a difference and I am going to use oil designed for the application. I would like to read the "oil war" thread though!! where is it?

Back on the main subject, my smokey motor. I tore into the motor tonight even though I got three packages today with most of the parts needed for my other project trike. I really wanted to find out what was wrong with the second X. (by the way I had to go by the UPS center to pickup one box and who was in there? none other than Ned Jarrett, father of the #88 UPS Ford driver! He was shipping his golf clubs so he wouldnt have to carry them on a plane. I helped him tape 2 boxes together to fit the clubs) Anyway, I removed the rocker cover and the cam journals looked OK. I got the cam out and the lower journals looked OK. Whew! I was afraid of what I was going to see. The cam does not have perfect eggshaped lobes they have a longer ramp on one side and a steeper ramp on the other, is this normal? I tried to get the head off while the motor was in the frame and figured out that it won't work. I was getting really pi$$ed about it too! So I didnt get to see the cylinded yet. I will tip the motor tomorrow night and get the head and cylinder off. My oil filter did seem to have a lot of shiny specks in it.

Jay

[broook]

Interesting thread. Please keep us posted as I have almost the same problem with a big red a guy brought to me.

I put rings in it and valve seals. The guides did not seem to have any play in them. Lots of compresion and no sighn of any wear on the cams or any top end parts.

[JayP]

Broook

Are you saying you did rings, seals, and all that and the thing is still smoking?

[broook]

:( Yes , still smokes when it is left to idle and then opened up.

First time I just replaced the valve seals as that was the obvious solution. I also cleaned up the valves and seats. When put back it still smoked just as bad.

Stripped it down again and honed the cylinder and put in new rings.
The cylinder was out of round about 1 1/2 thou. New valve seals were in the new gasket kit so I changed them again. It still smoked but not as bad.
Lots of compression and the bike runs good.

We are going to put a new head on it off another trike when he gets the money. Might be a while.

[JayP]

Ok MR ATC more info for you.

I pulled the head and cylinder just an hour ago. The cylinder and piston looked good. The bore looked freshly honed with a few scratches front and back, none on the sides. The piston is 1.00 over. I don't think that area is the issue.

The head looks to have some sort of port work done in it. Right when I pulled it off I held it straight up to see the combustion chamber and the left intake valve was visibly dark and oil soaked and the others were dry. I took off the valve springs on the two intake valves and they had brown neoprene or nylon seals on the stems. I pulled the valves out and they look OK. It looks like it has new guides in it. I put the valves in their guide on at a time and I could shake them back and forth a little. I could feel it click back and forth and it felt the same on each side. The guide appeared very smooth inside. I am thinking that one intake valve may be the problem since it was oil soaked.

What do you think? I dont have a way to actually measure the clearances.

Jay

[MR ATC]

for what you say about the oil soaked valve i would suspect its the valve seal. but, if you can move your valves in the guides like you say they are worn out it should be a tight fit with no movement or clicking sound. you say the guides look new? what color are they grey or bronze?

if your guides are worn and/or your valves are worn it would cause oil sepage past even a good seal.

you will need to mic the valves and guides.


lastly everyone has differant idea's on a "rebuilt" motor some think just piston and rings are a rebuilt motor. me i tear it completely down and measure and replace every part not within specs. and at the very least i still do a valve job by lapping the valves and replacing seals while i'm in there.

[JayP]

Interesting info on OIL

I saw this on the "ASK DON" forum on the Little Sahara Oklahoma sand dunes webpage. Don is the resident ATV expert out there and takes questions. I grew up out there and we rode those dunes some. The question was about synthetic car oil vs. synthetic motorcycle oil.

Travis,

I don't claim to be an oil expert so I called the guys at Maxima, they used a lot of scientific mumbo to tell me that motorcycle oils are specially designed to run in conjunction with wet clutches. This means the same oil used to lubricate the engine is also used to lubricate the bottom end. Car oils are not designed with this in mind, so they do not have the necessary additives and in turn will burn up your wet clutches.

Happy Riding

Don

[Manny55]

Hey did u tried changing the air filter becuz my R was smoking not to bad but it still was smoking kind of bad and then i cleaned the air filter and now there is no smoke coming out and it runs way better.

[JayP]

No I didn't try the air filter, i think my smoking situation is way beyond an easy fix, it is internal.

I got some tools to mic the valves and guides today. The valves are right on the standard for IN and EX. The EX valves for some reason are mushroomed on the tip of the stem (not visibly) and were very hard to remove from the guide. I had to pull hard and twist to get them out. It was hard to measure the guides. I had a digital vernier caliper that measured inside diameters but it would only reach a short ways into the guide and I could only measure the top end. I noticed the standard in the manual is a certain range such as 5.512-5.532 and then the service limit was much higher at maybe 5.570 and I dont understand what the service limit is. Any way the way I measured the guides are both just at or beyond the service limit measurement for IN and EX. The calculated clearance was about .090, on each, which is way out of standard. It appears pretty sure that this is the problem. Would you replace the valves also or just the guides?

So the question is could the new oil stem seals have prevented the motor from smoking for the first few hours and then it returned to smoking as it probably did before the "rebuild" because of the guide clearance? Or did the guides just wear out in two hours for some reason? I have no idea if they were lubed properly or at all during the previous rebuild.

Jay

[broook]

If you had to twist and pull the valves out of the guides you will probibly have spoiled the guides. :( The correct tools for measuring inside small diameters go inside and expand to the I.D. You then take them out and measure them with an outside micrometer. Go see a machinist or a millwright. They will have them. :)
Valves swollen at the tip??? Better replace them too. :(
The valve guides have to be pressed out. Not something to tackle if you are not sure what you are doing. :(
I also own a honda CBX with 6 cylinders and 24 valves. Imagine how I feel when a valve job comes up. :rolleyes:

[JayP]

Well the smoking problem was diagnosed by a Honda mechanic for $15, that is 1/4 hour labor. The valves and guides were OK. The cylinder was already bored 1.00 and the rebuilder apparently tried to avoid a resleeve by honing and putting new rings on the wiseco piston. Two problems developed: 1) too much clearance betwen piston and cylinder 2) the hone was not the proper cross-hatch pattern, it was straight around. He said this would cause the rings to either wear quickly or not seat correctly and coupled with the out-of-standard clearance it started smoking after 2-3 hours of running. Does this sound reasonable to everyone?

I ordered a new +1.00 piston and am using another cylinder I have for the new bore job. Piston will hopefully be here and get bored by Saturday afternoon. 350X-2 may be running this weekend!!

My question for assembly is this: what does the o-ring do that you put on the outside bottom of the cylinder?

JayP