Ammo for .40

[The Goat]

As of right now, I carry two clips of .165 grain hollow point Federal and one clip of Blazer FMJ.

I've been looking at different rounds...and I'm trying to find the round that has the largest amount of transferable energy. Penetration is not exactly that important, I don't ever see myself in a situation where I'll need to fire through an obstacle... If so, that's what the clip of FMJ is for.

What I've found so far is....

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=180454
Jacketed Hollowpoint at 135 grain and 526 Ft/lbs of muzzle energy.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=55751
MagSafe Self Defense Ammo Defender class at 84 grain and 604 Ft/lbs of muzzle energy

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=55753
Glaser Blue at 115 grain and 575 Ft/lbs of muzzle energy
These seem to have downright RIDICULOUS expansion...some scary stuff.

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=55751
MagSafe swat series at 46 grain and only 451 Ft/lbs of muzzle energy...but at 2100fps...that's rather ridiculous.


anyone have some advice or reviews?

[edog]

Well I like these. Not a big auto guy.
My friends mother shoots with these.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/67954-5.html

[UlsterATCFan]

OK fellas, you Americans take your guns waaaaay too seriously! :crazy: - its nearly Christmas, have an egg-nog and a smile :p

[brapp]

with a .40 any of the amunition woudl have enough take down power but i have always liked the fedral's for transfer and knockdownpower if you need more go to a 44 mag lol

[The Goat]

Lol, eggnog is good.

I've been looking, a DEagle pounds out 2000ft/lbs... And at my size and shape, I could conceal and carry easy once I get my permit. Hell I could conceal an mp5 if it was a pistol grip, maybe not to the trained eye, but the average joe. The problem is price.

I can hit a coke can, I know I could hit a guy close enough to be considered a threat, my ammo choice is more for peace of mind...a misfire at the wrong moment and boom, pulling it out was a horrible mistake.

Russia has loads hot enough to go through kevlAr and 1/4 inch plate, a bit much, plus it'll shatter the polymer parts apparently.

As it is now, those glasers are IT.

[Billy Golightly]

OK fellas, you Americans take your guns waaaaay too seriously! :crazy: - its nearly Christmas, have an egg-nog and a smile :p

We do that at Christmas WITH our guns! After everyones ate till their about to burst we all get together go out back and pop a couple hundred rounds off :lol:

[edog]

We do that at Christmas WITH our guns! After everyones ate till their about to burst we all get together go out back and pop a couple hundred rounds off :lol:

Bwhaaaaa, thanks for saying something.:D
What I would have said, mite get me some more time off.:eek:

[The Goat]

The Brits take their football way too seriously anyways.

I'll get it one day, maybe.

Does anyone know if you can powdercoat the slide on a sigma, I was thinking of some obnoxious color like red silvervein?

[SWIGIN]

i use federal hydro shocks when i carry my .40

they are a nasty hollow point with a spike in the center and the side of the bullet has groves so it peels open like a flower......nasty little round

[300rman]

too bad you cant get some silicone tipped bullets. they arent a rapid expansion round, they are a penetrating round. but, they are extremely hard to come by, i cant find any mention of them on the web.

my dad has a few dozen of them, and i have seen only one shot. cuts through kevlar like cheese. he keeps them locked away, ill try to get a pic of one next time he has his stuff out for cleaning, but no promises.

[Vealmonkey]

If you are concerned about ammo performance, get serious and get a rig and handload your own. A nice multistage loader is not real expensive and you can save a ton of cash if you shoot alot. If you have a friend that shoots alot of a different caliber, than have him buy his dies and you can handload his ammo too. If 2 or 3 friends have the same caliber handguns, then you can pitch in and buy larger quantities of supplies and really save some cash. That's what me anc a couple buddies do. A good friend of mine has the handgun ammo loading rig, a shotgun shell loading set-up and the rifle loading set-up. Almost all of our ammo is hand loaded and it gives you major quality control over what goes into you firearms. Accuracy is way improved which is not only a help with the handguns, but really nice with your rifles. And it can make all the difference in a clean kill during a hunt. It's very rewarding to reload your own ammo and it creates a nice excuse to get a couple buddies together and tell some stories and share some time with. Much better than out running the streets and bar hopping and such. Also, you can run short runs of different spec ammo to try to find the sweetest rounds that work best for your guns, especially if you like doing alot of target shooting. A nice little lead melting outfit and some bullet molds can come in handy too. A custom round in your firearm can make alot of difference in what you hit and what you don't.

[The Goat]

Thanks veal, at this point I'm serious enough to want the best, but not serious enough to start reloading.

Swigin, that's what I'm firing now, I'm just looking for something faster and with more force.

Vealmonkey, don't suppose you're willing to load 30 rounds for me? I need hot hot hot 100 grain, preferably a jacketed hollowpoint?

I don't want thick clothing to clog bullets in a dire situation.

[Vealmonkey]

First all you better make sure your 40 can take hot hot hot. Some barrels can take the +P or higher and some can't. Make sure of what you are doing because hot loads can be very dangerous. If you're so worried about heavy clothing and such, maybe you should just use FMJ or maybe a ballitstic tip if you can get it. I would doubt that extra clothing would do much to stop a 40. Keep me posted on what you find out about what your gun can handle and we'll go from there.

[Russell 350X]

IMO you want the heaviest round with the most power behind it, that can make for some devestaing knock down power. Thats why I like a .44 magnum ;)

[wheelie king]

Penetration is not exactly that important, I don't ever see myself in a situation where I'll need to fire through an obstacle... If so, that's what the clip of FMJ is for.


anyone have some advice or reviews?

Ahhhh, yes. The .40 S&W. What a great round.

... You should be concerned with penetration issues. The FMJ solid tips are good for target shooting or OVER penetration in a firefight wherein residential construction is an issue. When the Sheet hits the fan, you want to KNOW what you are working with. Trust me.

I carry the 165 grain remington golden sabers (bonded-Law enforcement only) ammo in my .40s. Even the civilian Remington Golden Sabers are FAR superior to the competition in gel-shoots and other demos that I have attended. I also have carried the 180 grain Winchester Silvertip JHP rounds for different situations when a heavier cround is needed or anticipated (don't ask :rolleyes: )

I can't remember, but I think Cheaper than Dirt was selling the "Law Enf. Only" golden saber bonded ammunition to the public for awhile... check and see. It is GREAT stuff.

[The Goat]

See that's my thing, A heavier round has a greater potential to overpenetrate and cause unintended damage. Right? Would a much lighter round, designed to mushroom at the slightest touch be safer, AND carry more force AND do more damage before/IF it exits the intended target?

Plus, these rounds are only to be fired in an all out worst case scenario...so price is less of an issue.

As for hot loads, I was assuming the sigma could handle any round that does not specifically state no polymer.

As for as clothing... Cloth can fill a hollowpoint and hinder mushrooming. A 80 to 135 grain ballistic tip with delrin insert would be ideal.

[Vealmonkey]

It's hard to beat a good old lead round. A couple well place score lines and she'll open up like a hollow point with out all the hassle. And the lucky recepient gets a nice case of lead poisoning if he lives! Most bullets are pretty much situation specific anymore. A nice FMJ tearing through someone does more damamge than you think. Especially at that kind of caliber.

[The Goat]

But, I've shot them into a tree and watched them exit, that's dangerous...

[300rman]

i think you should not be so worried about the ammo and more concerned with the shot itself.

if you hit the target with any round, they arent going to be doing a whole lot of anything afterwards.

stick with one of the top-of-the-line hollowpoint rounds, and you wont have any problems. and a rapid-expansion bullet is safer in case you miss the intended target, a wall/2x4 will slow it alot better than it would a FMJ

[The Goat]

Yes, but to say a 180 grain hydrashock at 400 pounds is the equivalant of a 135 grain at 600, well that's just foolish. In a nonstress situation I'm accurate out to 30 yards easy, self defense is 15 feet or less they can be the size of a plum.

[300rman]

Yes, but to say a 180 grain hydrashock at 400 pounds is the equivalant of a 135 grain at 600, well that's just foolish. In a nonstress situation I'm accurate out to 30 yards easy, self defense is 15 feet or less they can be the size of a plum.

not what i meant at all. but if you line people up, and shoot them all with different rounds from 20 yards away, they will all drop just as fast, reguardless of the finer details of the round. go with something that will be stopped by objects, in case you miss, and something that shoots accurately and reliably.

other than that, unless you are sniping from hundreds of yards away, i cant see the round playing too big of a role in dropping the person after they are hit, as long range accuracy is not a goal with handguns.

[The Goat]

Ever seen what happens when a bullet doesn't expand? Watches some faces of deaths videos, you can walk away from a full metal jacket if it doesn't hit something vital. Guy I used to play Dod with shot himself in the hand with a Luger...clean penetration. Very minimal damage, especially since he shot himself at point blank. I've seen meth heads downright absorb bullets because apparently some cops aren't allowed to carry hollowpoints? Wtf wheelieking is this really a law in places or just poor ammo choice by officers.

Here's the thing, if I ever have to use this gun in a self defense situation, it will be because someone is trying to steal my car with me in it... LA has very high carjacking. Mainlybecause of a growing drug problem.

Let's say a meth head throws a brick through my window at a stoplight at night and I put one fmj into his chest, unless I hit spine or heart, chances are it won't even slow him down. Now let's say he's hit with a round with twice the transferable energy that has nearly a 100% expansion, the force will be transferred to his body, rather than just propelling through him, long story short, he's knocked down long enough for me to call the cops. If all rounds were made equal, there would be only one kind.

I'm gonna pick up a box of what you recommended wheelie, and a few other types.

Does anyone know where I can find an extended barrel for my sigma, ATF allows the creation of a silencer for a registered handgun if you get their approval.

The armadillos in the yard wont know what hit em.

[SWIGIN]

i think your over thinking this, a .22 short will drop a man from close range IF placed in the right spot.

any given round or caliber is useless if placement is wrong.

[The Goat]

it's easy to shoot straight when standing still at rest... It's a lot more difficult to shoot when you're adrenaline is through the roof. Ive nearly slipped into adrenaline shock before (car into a tree, damned deer) and in that state I know I couldn't shoot as accurately as at rest, or even as after a run. I want 2 in the torso to be enough.

I'm just looking for a bullet with excellent expansion, not stupid penetration... Safer for those around AND worse for baddy.

Yeah a .22 can stop a man, but I've seen vids of guys on pcp or meth eat 14 9mm rounds to the torso, and they stand there til they pass out from blood loss. That's what's bothersome. North side of Lsu campus has some of the highest rates of meth consumption in the country... And crime is on the rise, and ignorant cops ticketed my tint even though I had it medically prescribed. With .25% tint, no one approaches or looks in your car, since removing it, I've noticed more attention in bad areas of town.

If it was just shooting out the window I have a nine shot revolver .22 that would do the trick.

[300rman]

ok, i underestand now. your dropping people that cant feel pain.

seems like a shot to the head would be a real winner in this case ;)

or, one of those handguns that shoot shotgun shells. a shotgun slug will annihilate someone's torso.....by completely splattering it all over the street.

[wheelie king]

Ammo selection by officers is usually an agency mandate- NOT the discretion of the cop. If the agency issues or requires a certain ammo by policy, you HAVE TO carry it.

IN all this talk, you must consider your target and the obstacles. Body armor, clothing, etc.

As said before, a general personal defense round is the Remington Golded Saber Bonded ammuntion. I have seen it outperform the hydrashocks, silvertips, sxts, etc., in many different situations. I swear remington should pay me for saying that. But it is true.

Get some Rem. golden saber 165 grain rounds for that 40, and land good shots- God forbid you ever have to.:)

[Russell 350X]

seems like a shot to the head would be a real winner in this case ;)

.



From what I have heard, even in self defense, do not shoot the attacker in the head, you'll automatically land yourself in prison, for what reason, i dont know. Just what I heard.


Your gonna want awsome penetration and expansion, less chance of the attacker getting back up. Dead man tells no tales.

[The Goat]

Nope, in Louisiana, if someone is trying to get into your car, you can shoot that person with only one question asked. Why? If your answer is "he was trying to get into my car!" that's the end of it, passed new laws after carjackng went up 250%

Some kid wrestled a gun away from a hijacker a few months ago who kept saying he was going to rape his mom. Kid took the gun, put two in the head and three in the chest. He got a medal for it.

I've seen those crazy meth heads, and I hope I never have to reach for it, but if I do, I want to be ready for it.

[piroguedog]

ever shoot a S&W 500mag? If you ever are justified in shooting someone, I say, empty it. I guess it would be good to know which round you decide on. I may be interested in the same for my p95.

[The Goat]

I'll post pics, or video, as soon as I order my bullets, funds are tight for the next two weeks or so.

I plan on firing at a few different types of targets to test.

[The Goat]

just thought I would update this as I'm bored here at work.

I'm carrying a clip of BEESAFE in my .40 sigma...It is one SICK little round. I also have a clip of 135 grain pwerball in the door. A clip of heavy federal Hydras...and two clips of FMJ.

For the 9mm I'm carrying pwrball...one clip...one clip only.

The other night I put two shots of pwrball out of that .40 into an armadillo in the yard. Missed the first shot and then double tapped his ass. One made him jump, the second rolled him...he still managed to run 50 yards or so before dying.

I've gotten kill shots on them with 1 .22 before, so I'm guessing it was just bad placement.

shot the .40 powrball into a 4in diamter tree. Did not penetrate through, but the entrance hole was a ragged 2in mark.

picked up the beesafe because they didn't have magsafe... it's a prefragged round...under 100 grains...faster than all hell. very high energy. Its what's cocked and locked.

vealmonkey...for the .40... are you interested in doing a short very lightweight bullet for me? I'm thinking something around 45-55 grains....hollowpoint or FMJ with some score marks on it.

I figure 800fps out of the muzzle...easy.

oh yeah...I also took a pocket knife to a federal hydra, removed the center point...cleaned out the hollow point a little, and then shaved 1mm or so off of the length. put it a little taller than the pwrball....so still acceptable. still WAY too much penetration into wood for my tastes.

[wheelie king]

Watchya paying for the powerball and bee safe? Those things are like $1.00 PER ROUND (or more!) down here..............

[The Goat]

26 for 20 sadly....

the beesafe was 17 for 12 shots.

I'm reasonably done now as far as purchasing different types.

only thing left is glazer blues... and with the current ammo shortage... good luck with that.

[rdlsz24]

26 for 20 sadly....

the beesafe was 17 for 12 shots.

I hear ya on that. My dad got a new rifle the other day (he's been buying guns like crazy lately) and you could keep track of how much we spent while shooting it by the bullet casings. $1 a pop.

Rob

[Fox250R]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=125455480

[Macs]

Damn, these prices are starting to get scary. I bought a .40 cal last week since i was having such a hard time finding bullets for everything else. Now the .40 are hard to find. I finally found some cheap bullets but at least it was something ( american eagle and blazer ). they had 500 rounds left and i bought them up.

[1BFC]

I believe that if you subscribe to the "one shot stop" theories of Evan Marshall that you can use this data here as a guide to picking what amo to use and what type of gun to carry for what purpose.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number1/TABLE2-1.PDF

http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume3/number1/TABLE2-2.PDF

In that chart, nothing tops what a 357mag does loaded with RP 125g JHP.

Not everyone likes Evan Marshall though. I personally think his data is quite useful. Evan actually teaches people to shoot until the bad guy stops. His data just shows which hand guns and load tend to do that the most often with 1 shot.

Here's a decent resource for info too: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/index.php?

[The Goat]

I can't agree on one thing.

there is no one stop shot....unless you're a damned good shot.

if I shoot you in the chest with a FMJ chances are it's gonna punch through, destroying tissue for the first few inches...and then basically making a clean path on through as it slows down.

Unless I hit something vital...liver, spleen, spine and so on...you're likely still going to be standing.

even a shot to the heart isn't immediately lethal. most significantly healthy people would still have 6-15 seconds in which they still had enough oxygenated blood to funtion.

the only way to be truly guaranteed the person is down is a headshot from the browline up...something that shouldn't be done unless the situation has progressed from self defense to downright gunfight.

I also don't understand the whole black talon obsession...they perform just as well as any other hp....but when they open up, the insides flower and create addition lacerations rather than just pushing tissue out of the way. If you're lucky enough to hit next to a main artery...it'll slice it.

You'll increase blood loss, but they aren't going to bleed out THAT damned fast.

whoever bid 250 on black talons is a fool.

a winchester ranger sxt is basically the same round, only without the tiny lacerations.

the myth that they are armor piercing is just that...a myth. the black coating (which is basically teflon) is only there to decrease friction within the barrel in the hopes of having higher muzzle velocity.

been reading on ballistics lately...your best bet is to creat the largest hole possible using the fastest round possible.

therefore a low grain, very high velocity, and large diameter round is where its at. The low grain is only necessary because being lighter, it's typically faster.


with the prefragged rounds I bought, I'm not hoping for lethality. I'm hoping for knockdown power. as the three pellets seperate and drive through the body, they will shed energy very quickly...hopefully so quickly that the person is literally just KNOCKED to the ground. I don't care if they are dead or alive, I just want to be able to run away and call the cops.

valiant? not really... smart and legal? YES

[SWIGIN]

i think you think to much....lol


if i get hit with any size round im going to drop....and you would to wether you think so or not.


a crazy crack head.....who knows but just rember, a bullit that blows up on the surface aint doing its job.

[The Goat]

I know swigin...but if an hour or so of reading plus personally testing a couple of types that have received high marks equates I live rather than die one day...

I'd rather put in the time.

remember now...my armadillo with 2 135 grain powerballs in it still managed to run...and he's a lot smaller than a person.

with adrenaline pumping, it's crazy the things people can do.

[SWIGIN]

i would spend more time shooting.

im talking thousands of rounds....then when your dead on when you are drawing from the hip, then you are ready to woory about type of ammo.

untill you know 100% where they are going to go before you shoot all the ''magical'' bullets in the world wont do any good.

[The Goat]

I'm five for five through the first or x ring with that glock at five targets from 15-20 feet.

that's pulling from the hip back turned....I'd say under 4 seconds.

that .22 target pistol I got though...that thing is UNREAL...shoots flatter than my .22 rifle.

[hancadam]

No bullet will "knock somebody down", if that is what you litterally mean. For it to knock down the target person, it would also have to knock down the shooter. For every action there is a equal and opposite reaction. Myth busters did a show on this.

To me the whole which round is better is negligble. If you have a smaller round, normally you have more in the clip making up for the lack of power. If you have a larger round, you have less rounds where the power makes up for it. Just make sure your a good shot with whatever you have.

I personally have a .32, 3x 9mm, .380, and a .45. I feel fine carrying any of the above except for the .32. Its just a 6 shot 1903 S&W revolver.

My personal foavorite is the 9mm simply because ammo is cheap, fairly powerful, and higher capicity compared to the .40 and .45 caliber guns of the same make. Just my two cents.

[The Goat]

true...but absorbing the impact through a gun and a braced arm is different than absorbing the impact with your chest. that's why I hate mythbusters...they build something that's kind of like the real thing and then claim the results would be exactly the same.

the perfect example would be firing into dense clay/mud... I saw some very high frames per second vids a while back... firing into gelatin...or firing into a hanging 30 pound ham... trust me...it moves.

when you're talking 600ft/lbs of energy behind something that weighs 135 grains, you're talking some serious force.

as of right now, I'm fine with carrying the beesafe in the .40

I would however love to get someone to load me something very very very light... as I mentioned above.

a hollowpoint jacketed with a delrin core...and then we're talking.

[The Goat]

The ammo selection has been finalized for the most part.

In .40, powerball

In 9mm, powerball

I'm looking for some winchester sxt +p+ for the 9mm

I'm trying to decide what my next one will be, either 10mm, .45 ACP, or .357 sig in a subcompact. I've shot all three out of very lightweight guns, recoil is NOT the issue people have made it out to be.

.357 in a 120ish grain is pretty nice
.45 is a classic, big and slow, but a performer
10mm can throw down some serious hurt.

It's really a tossup between the .45 and 10mm at this point. Old school vs new.

Any thoughts?

Btw... Ammo choice boils down to factory ammo made by a known manufacturer. The end. You want high energy, decent penetration, and holes in the right areas. Turns out running reloaded ammo for self defense is a serious legal risk.

[Thorpe]

Seems like a pile of expensive ammo for a sigma... I have one and like it, but thats alot of expensive rounds goat...

[The Goat]

what will really bake your noodle is that I shot over 150 rounds of each before I was satisfied with it.

with the exception of the beesafes...they are 16 bucks for 8...and I don't intend to ever carry them for self defense again.

a sigma is an inaccurate glock without tennifer, that's why parts interchange. It certainly isn't as bad of a gun as everyone makes out.

I still carry it in the car as opposed to the GLock.

[DixiePlowboy]

Goat,
I'm about to purchase another handgun myself, and I was debating the .45 vs. 10mm too. Having had both, considering magazine capacity, velocity, energy, and the fact I'm not going to suppress this one........I'm going back with 10mm. .45 ACP would be my second choice.


AND.....there IS such a thing as a one shot stop. Flipping the switch instantly to "OFF" requires a shot into the "magic triangle".

[The Goat]

plus the other consideration is that you can do barrel swaps with the glock... .357 sig

looking for a good subcompact... pickens are mighty slim when you demand under 6.5 inches in length

[Thorpe]

Dixie-- You still able to find 10mm's anywhere? Havent seen those rounds in quite awhile in these woods

[DixiePlowboy]

Dixie-- You still able to find 10mm's anywhere? Havent seen those rounds in quite awhile in these woods


No problem coming up with ammo locally for me. Plenty of ammo on gunbroker.com as well.