86 250r fouling plugs at 32:1 with golden spectro

[Autophysn]

Ok, Now I know this topic has been talked to death, but the one thing everybody tends to agree on is that they run somewhere close to 32:1 fuel mixture with a synthetic type of oil. This bike is new to me as are two-strokes entirely, and beleive me, I do ride hard, so it is not like I am loading the thing up just putting around. However I am getting large amounts of oil coming out of the base connection from the pipe to the head, and the plugs are soaked, went through 3 plugs this weekend. Now, I played with the jetting this weekend, I only had a 165 and a 200. The 200 was way too much, bogged the bike down badly. The 165 did the same thing, just not so bad. I ended up back to the stock 145, and still fouled out.

So, my question to all you gurus, Should I be changing my fuel mixture leaner? I would think so, but want your guy's opinions.

One more thing, since I am not too familiar with the 2 stroke engine as much as the four stroke, is it possible I could be getting crank case/ trans oil from coming up by passing the piston rings? It feels kind of funny asking this, but I have to put my worries to death. The bike has enormous power and even with my fat ass at 320lbs. Was able to hit a high of 58.02 MPH according to my GPS. So I kind of don't think I have a compression issue. But I can be wrong. Thanks in advance!

[oscarmayer]

are you seeing excessive smoke out the exhaust(worn oil rings)? are you dumping too much fuel and running too rich or too lean (tuning issue)? those things can cause the issue.

[DeePa]

are you seeing excessive smoke out the exhaust(worn oil rings)? are you dumping too much fuel and running too rich or too lean (tuning issue)? those things can cause the issue.


please stick to the 4 strokes...there are no oil rings in 2 strokes. All those rings do is create compression.



tranny fluid cant come up the in the crank case unless the clutch side oil seal is leaking, and it wouldn tbe leaking enough to foul your plugs.

keep looking at jetting, maybe weak spark.

[oscarmayer]

your saying 2 strokes don't have rings? it may not be called an "oil ring? but it's a ring :P

[DeePa]

well oil rings are spec for 4 strokes...these are compression rings, theres 2 of them on larger cc's...just 1 on smaller cc's...

not 3 or 4 rings like 4 strokes

[SYKO]

less oil will make your fuel richer while more oil will make it leaner, what heat range plug are you running? I good measure is most everything runs great on a NGK B8ES, Ive runn hotter plugs on my racing motor B7ES and helped a bit. My 83 300r was natourios for fouling plugs.... becouse it was running with 1/4 part of the piston missing! lol! I could get maybe 30 mins out of it, and it would run sweet! then DEAD plug... change ride, repeat.


ive never really had a plug fouling problem other then the 300 my fiance's blaster ran a 32 keihn jetted rich and still ran on the same plug forever...even got it to run with 2 reeds missing!

[Daddio]

A dirty air filter can cause fouling on a 2stroke. A 145 doesn't sound too out of line. I just asked 1upfront and he said he is running a 135 main in his 300r with a 39 pwk. He is running a 125 main in his 250r with a 36 pwk. They are both running cam2 110 leaded 20-1 with amsoil dominator. No fouling problems here. By the way these are both aircoolers.

[Autophysn]

guess I should have given a bit more info, sorry

New K&N filter, is why I jumped so high with the guesstamate for the jets, thought 165 would work, but was too much

And I do run the stock NGK BR9ES recommended by Honda

As for the rings, I thought so, I know the 4 strokes have a wiper piston ring, and can cause an issue like this, but a 2 stroke is a whole other monster. This is why we have to mix the fuel right? the fuel lubricates the piston walls.

any how, I am getting confused about a different comment

32:1 would be richer than lets say 50:1
but leaner than lets say 20:1
correct?

[gravelyman]

most modern oils have excellent lubricating properties. running at 50:1 in my experience has done well for me. my stock 85 and 86 250r's have the original top ends on them. i use amsoil domniator at 50:1 and it is a synthetic oil. on my 350pv engine im running at 40:1 with 110 octane but only time will tell on this engine.

[Autophysn]

most modern oils have excellent lubricating properties. running at 50:1 in my experience has done well for me. my stock 85 and 86 250r's have the original top ends on them. i use amsoil domniator at 50:1 and it is a synthetic oil. on my 350pv engine im running at 40:1 with 110 octane but only time will tell on this engine.


See, now this is what I am wondering, because golden spectro says to run 50:1 in normal condition and 40:1 in severe conditions

So it would be okay to go as high as 50:1 right?

[oOGoFastOo]

I think you would be ok at 50:1 if thats what it says, iI run 40:1 in all my 2 strokes and havent had a problem. There could be tranny oil getting in to your crank from a bad crank seal and fouling your plug, my Tecate was doing this from a bad power valve seal.. I was able to tell becayse of the smell of the smoke it was producing didnt smell like the mixing oil I run. your carb might also be flooding over from a miss adjusted float and fouling the plugs.

[Autophysn]

thanks! that is a very good possiblity since was tearing into the carb frequently trying to jet it. And as for the crank seal, I could certainly see that since the bike had been sitting for ten yrs and all I have done is change the trans fluid and air filter. I understand how seals can harden over time and cause failure.

Thank You Bro! I appreciate the point in a direction ;)

[Daddio]

A sure way to tell if you are burning up the tranny oil is if the oil level keeps dropping in the tranny, that is as long as you don't have any leaks. Oil coming out around the head pipe isn't too uncommon on a 2stroke and is likely an improper seal there.

[Mosh]

K&N filters come oiled too heavy from the factory.
I always clean them first,then re apply the proper amount of oil.
If your crank seal was bad,That thing would be smoking heavily out of the pipe.

Change your mixture to 40-1 and try that. If it still loads up on the bottom and cleans out on top, you may have to drop down on your pilot jet.

[DixiePlowboy]

If your crank seal was bad,That thing would be smoking heavily out of the pipe.


I know that's the truth.

Had a '92 KX250 at the beginning of this year with a really bad right crank seal. It would not only foul plugs and run like a lame turtle on a glue trap, but would also blow tranny oil about 8 feet out of the tail pipe coating me and everything behind me.

Another possibility:

If you are experiencing a loading/fouling condition that jetting doesn't end up clearing, and are using a stock(or)old carb, the needle jet could be worn to the point that jetting can't cure it.

I had an '85 R back in '03 that absolutely could not be jetted correctly. Turns out that the needle had a burr on it and needle jet had ovaled out. Slapped on a new 38mm A/S....changed the mainjet once....problem solved.

Edited to add additional info on the condition I described above to clarify and help diagnose this specific problem: That machine ran fine at full throttle even with the problem. It was somewhere between 1/4-to-3/4 (+-) throttle that it would load up.

May not be necessary in this case, though.

[jmack3986]

HEre is the truth. If you do run 32:1 you are running a lean fuel mixture and lots of oil which can foul plugs. I suggest trying this mixture which works great for me and has on all my two smokes. Bel ray mc1 the 12.8 oz bottle to four gallons of gas it is a 42:1 ish mixture. and do some tuning to the carb. if it is loading up at iddle then drop down one size on pilot jet. if your not getting full rpm's at the top drop one on main. easy way is the needle adjustment. put the needle clip at the top or move it up slowly to lean the bike out a little at first. and take the air screw to two full turns. i would not go more then that. if the needle and the air screw don't help your problem then i would jet one down on main and pilot. if your riding hard and still fouling out (Riding hard meaning always on the top end) then switch main. If its fouling after you put from doing a little slow riding then its your pilot.

[Micahdogg]

You should give your trike a good once over and make sure this isn't a mechanical problem. Low compression can cause plug fowling (110 psi or less). If you are anything over about 135 psi I would think you have enough compression for this to not be an issue. Check your stator side crank for any leakage or play (back/forth/side to side). Make sure your carb boots are tight and rip free. Look at your reeds and make sure there are no chips or that the petals are not hanging open. Make sure the reed gasket has a good seal. If you feel confident that you don't have a mechanical issue then you can move forward with jetting.

As long as you are using the correct spark plug, 32:1 is a fine ratio and won't be the cause of your problems. And any adjusting to your premix ratio is a band-aid for bad jetting.

There are really just three circuits to worry about. The pilot, needle, and main. Not 100% sure what your factory pilot or needle clip should be, but if you are just piped and filtered (no lid), then your stock pilot, stock needle clip and a 145 main should be a good starting point.

If the midrange is soft, lean the clip. If the top end is soft, lean the main. Don't be afraid to lean out your jetting. A wise man once said, "Moving one size leaner on your main jet won't cause your engine to blow, but it could make the difference between poor performance and acceptable performance."

If you really care about dialing your jetting, you'll know what size pilot, what # needle you have, what clip setting you are on and what your main jet size is. From there, you should have about 5 spark plugs on hand and a hacksaw. You can adjust your pilot circuit in the driveway, but have to ride the bike to get a feel for your needle clip and main. Don't be afraid to keep going leaner....and certainly don't be afraid of a white plug. My plugs burn nice and white, but the carbon band is way down in there if you cut that spark plug open and take a look.

P.S. A Rich premix ratio is lower in number. 24:1 has more oil concentration than 40:1. But a Rich fuel ratio is higher in number. Since 40:1 has less oil, that means there is more fuel present. Oil is just there for crank/piston/cylinder lube....it's not burning. So the higher fuel level which is present in a "lower oil" 40:1 premix ratio causes your true air/fuel ratio to be richer. When talking rich/lean....designate if you are talking FUEL or PREMIX. It in the end, it really doesn't matter because like I said, the minute adjustment in air/fuel ratio that you have to work with can't overcome significant jetting issues. It may overcome some differences in temperature and humidity. Just pick a good premix ratio and leave it alone. IMO 24:1 for a 125 and 32:1 for a 250. I like my lube. :)

[Yamahondaman]

SO MUCH READING !! i can't do it !! PLEEZZZZZ mix THAT Golden Spectro with some 87 Octain ... go out at Night and KILL a bunch of ant hill's and pour it along your fence... that way you don't have to use the weed eater and waste the line that's needed for around the Shack,Shed and Driveway !!

GIT a NEW wire end on your Coil Wire... Make sure it's the right ohm resistance and borrow your Buddies Stator if Needed and ALLWAY'S USE the "R" Plug's in your ATC's !! BR9ES,BR8ES,BR9-8 EV,BR9-8EGV,BR9-8EV.. ( NOT ) the Reg. B9-8es

[Mosh]

I was gonna suggest to get rid of that Golden spectro stuff.Never seen it do good for anyone.
It belongs right next to that "Tradco" brand, outboard marine 2 stroke oil at the Kwik-E Mart

[Nomad]

I had an all stock 85 250R back in the mid 90's. I ran Golden Spectro 50:1 w/ a B8ES and never had a problem and never changed a plug. It's a great oil and the bottle doesn't lie.

[oscarmayer]

when i said oil ring, i was meaning the lower of the 2 rings, i wasn't sure if it was called something different on the 2-stroker. but i haev seen where the lower ring starts to wear nd the lowr crank case oil starts showing up in the top end of the motor.

[Yamahondaman]

I was gonna suggest to get rid of that Golden spectro stuff.Never seen it do good for anyone.
It belongs right next to that "Tradco" brand, outboard marine 2 stroke oil at the Kwik-E Mart

HA HA !! iv'e heard good and BAD about it .. the most was BAD ... I was told it dosn't protect the Lower end very good like Yamalube2R,MC-1,klotz...
i also don't like Maxima.... iv'e seen Motor's that has used that stuff...BLAH !!

[oOGoFastOo]

when i said oil ring, i was meaning the lower of the 2 rings, i wasn't sure if it was called something different on the 2-stroker. but i haev seen where the lower ring starts to wear nd the lowr crank case oil starts showing up in the top end of the motor.

There isnt any crank case oil in a 2-stroke only tranny fluid for the gears and clutch, thats why you have to mix oil with the gas to lubricate the crank bearings and cylinder. the two rings on a 2-stroke are compression rings.

[Dirtcrasher]

Oscarmayer needs a weiner :lol:

Get that fourstroke out of your mind bud!!

Yamahondaman usually has some SOUND advice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Most of us are rookies ya know!! :D Not true builders!!

[edog]

HA HA !! iv'e heard good and BAD about it .. the most was BAD ... I was told it dosn't protect the Lower end very good like Yamalube2R,MC-1,klotz...
i also don't like Maxima.... iv'e seen Motor's that has used that stuff...BLAH !!

So what protects the top end and bottom end better than the others?

[Blown 331]

Yamahondaman, 2-strokes do not have oil in the bottom end.

I don't mean to hijack but this is related. On my air cooled R. It's all stock, new foam filter. Fresh Wiseco, new boysen reeds. And I'm running the same oil/gas in all my bikes. 32 to 1 93 octain, Honda synthetic pre-mix. Well this R doesn't have as good of throttle response or power as I think it should. If I'm running in 5th for say 5 mintues at a fairly low but varried RPM, it starts smoking pretty bad. I mean real bad, like a cloud. Got to pretty much be a crank seal correct? No I have not checked the tranny fluid after expieriencing this. I need a clutch so I guess now is the time to do both.

[Autophysn]

thanks for all the advice guys, I beleive I will do what has been suggested by making sure there is no mechanical issues. I may even just replace my reeds since almost everything on this bike is original from 86'. However I use the Golden Spectro just because it is was seems to be the best out here in cali. All the motorcycle shops seem to carry brands that I haven't seen you guys speak of. I would like to run amsoil or the belray MC-2, but I can't find it!

Guess it will be worth it to order off ebay depending on what I find on the tear down. However I will be very honest with you guys, I will probly run this thing this year and go thru the motor over the summer. Part cause of $ and other because this is my first season back in the game, and honestly just want to ride. I had so much fun this last weekend and will most likely carry the 13/16 wrench and a spare plug.

[Daddio]

Here is a good place to get amsoil.
http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/default.aspx

[Autophysn]

one more thing, I have heard that the silencer carries a "packing" that should be replaced often and could cause problems like loading the engine up. Has anyone else ever heard of that?

Again, don't mean to sound neive, but this is the first 2 stroke I have ever had, and am not sure. I love the bike and it's power, the riding style takes the edge off my craving for danger and speed. So putting money into the bike is not my concern. But I also don't want to just rebuild it all in one shot. Think the old lady would shoot me! LOL!!!!!!!

anyway, again, thanks for all the advice! I really do appreciate it!

[oOGoFastOo]

I run KLOTZ BeNOL in my trike, it seems to run really well and it smells good.:w00t:

[Saul]

Wow. There is some really good info in this thread. Great reading.

I'm running Amsoil Interceptor - I think it's great.

[DeePa]

if a 2 stroke doesnt have oil in the bottom end (NOT TRANNY) then youre gonna blow it up...hence the reason for 2 stroke mix, residual oil which coats the crank and oils up the crank bearings as well as the top end bearings...

[3Razors]

If you are running stock jetting keep in mind Honda set it up for a 20:1 mixture. I have run 20:1 numerous times and have never fouled a plug. I've also found it makes the most power. If you start going to 40:1 or so on you will need to lean the jetting as it will start running rich and foul plugs.

You dont need to take the carb off the bike to change the main jet. On the bottom of the float bowl there is a access nut on the bottom for quick main jet changes.

Just for an experiment mix up a batch of 20:1 and try it. I think you will be suprised at how well it runs.

Are you running with the lid on or off? Also if you are running a K&N filter at least run a outerwear or fine particles of dust are going to sand the bore and piston..dual stage foam is the best protection.

[Autophysn]

No, the lid is on

Don't get offended guys, but I don't beleive in removing the air cleaner box.

The bike is completely stock except for what most of you have identified as a Selvy pipe and whatever the silencer is. It had the stock air filter on it, obviously crumbled to the touch from age. I replaced it with a K&N.

And that's it, nothing different. I understand what you are saying about the jetting change with out removing the carb, I just have fat fingers and didn't have a 1/4 drive set on me when I was out there.

Now everybody is confusing me, what is it, cause I just use my mixer I got from the bike shop to add oil to the fuel can before mixing

gas:oil
or
oil:gas

example 32(oil) : 1 (gas)
or
32(gas) : 1 (oil) ??????????????????????????????????


seems elementary, but like my signature says

Better to ask stupid questions than to make stupid mistakes!

[Autophysn]

Just to give you guys a reminder of what we are talking about

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/250r11.jpg?t=1227675742
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/250r13-1.jpg?t=1227675775
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/250r10.jpg?t=1227675800
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/250r9.jpg?t=1227675831
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/250r8.jpg?t=1227675862

sorry, tried to get a picture up of the airfilter, but I haven't uploaded it yet and besides, I am sure you all have seen a K&N air filter

Point is that is resides in the stock box closed up nicely, receiving air from the tube running under the gas tank and through the radiator.
Best way IMO

[oOGoFastOo]

32:1 would be 32(gas):1(oil) so 32 parts gas to 1 part oil

[Autophysn]

unfortunately after this last weekend it is not that clean anymore. I tried to play in the dirt, and it was just not for me. I hate this type of enviroment. I am a sand duner, thru and thru. Just like Rock and Roll, I cant deal with that rap crap or anything else for that matter:rolleyes:

http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/ow3.jpg?t=1227676359
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/ow2.jpg?t=1227676393
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/ow1.jpg?t=1227676432
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/ow10.jpg?t=1227676457
http://i483.photobucket.com/albums/rr191/Autophysn/ow6.jpg?t=1227676489

[Autophysn]

32:1 would be 32(gas):1(oil) so 32 parts gas to 1 part oil

thats what I thought, so the higher the number the leaner the mixture:beer

[oscarmayer]

yea i keep calling it the wrong sutffs, I know there's a seal (gasket, o-ring, something don;t fry me i forget the exact name too :p ) the seperates them, and if thay seal goes the rings won't hold the oil (what ever type it is)

we had a kart motor rotax that had the problem and when we troubleshoot it, we discovered it was the seal from the gear box to the crank chamber (ok again may be namign it wrong)

[Yamahondaman]

So what protects the top end and bottom end better than the others?

Belray MC-1 "40:1".,. Yamalube2R "32:1".,. klotz R-50 tech "40:1" .,. PJ1 Goldfire "40:1" .,.
These 2 cycle oil's are in the Top 5 and i have seen GOOD results by useing them thru the years ... they smell good too !! :naughty:

[Saul]

I see our friends, the pro's of the trail, have infiltrated another thread.

[Autophysn]

why would Yamalube have a different ratio than the others?