84 250r: Octane and gas:oil mixture

[roger86200x]

Hello,

I just finished my 84 250r and I want to do this right... the trike came with gas and stupid impatient me.... I ran it. I foul alot of plugs too.

The first thing I want to do is mix up a fresh batch of gas.

What octane gas should I run on my 84 250r? The only things not stock are the Wiseco .020 over piston and the answer silencer.

I know the manual says run 20:1 oil/gas but do I really need to? Thats a lot of oil every tank... its not that big of a deal but I like the power too and more oil would seem like less power...right or wrong?

Thanks!!

Roger

[edog]

Golden Spectro Synthetic.32:1 is what I run. Newer oils are way better than the 80's 2 stroke oil.

Less oil goes further, if that make sense.

[fabiodriven]

Mobil 1 two stroke, full synthetic. No offense, E-dog, but the 'ol Golden spec is gettin pretty old. Leaves alot of goo in the exaust and powervalves. The mobil 1 is top notch, you can get it at auto zone, and it smells sweet! (no joke, try it!)

[edog]

Mobil 1 two stroke, full synthetic. No offense, E-dog, but the 'ol Golden spec is gettin pretty old. Leaves alot of goo in the exaust and powervalves. The mobil 1 is top notch, you can get it at auto zone, and it smells sweet! (no joke, try it!)

I am sticking with my ol' oil thanks.:D

[1upfront]

Hello,

I just finished my 84 250r and I want to do this right... the trike came with gas and stupid impatient me.... I ran it. I foul alot of plugs too.

The first thing I want to do is mix up a fresh batch of gas.

What octane gas should I run on my 84 250r? The only things not stock are the Wiseco .020 over piston and the answer silencer.

I know the manual says run 20:1 oil/gas but do I really need to? Thats a lot of oil every tank... its not that big of a deal but I like the power too and more oil would seem like less power...right or wrong?

Thanks!!

Roger

The 81-84 250rs are to run on 92-100 octane fuels, they recommend leaded. as far as oil amsoil is my fave it's an extremely low carbon/ash oil, 32:1 is as lean in oil as I would go.

[roger86200x]

Leaded huh? Whats the deal with the leaded fuel? Should I run a lead additive/substitute for pump gas?

so it seems 32:1 oil mix and 93 octane gas should do fine.... 93 is the highest I can get from the pump around here.

Ill see what I can get my hands on as far as 2 stroke oil brands...


Roger

[edog]

Leaded huh? Whats the deal with the leaded fuel? Should I run a lead additive/substitute for pump gas?

so it seems 32:1 oil mix and 93 octane gas should do fine.... 93 is the highest I can get from the pump around here.

Ill see what I can get my hands on as far as 2 stroke oil brands...


Roger

93 is good.

If you have the head shaved or smaller domes you will need to use higher octane to cool the combustion.

[1upfront]

Leaded huh? Whats the deal with the leaded fuel? Should I run a lead additive/substitute for pump gas?

so it seems 32:1 oil mix and 93 octane gas should do fine.... 93 is the highest I can get from the pump around here.

Ill see what I can get my hands on as far as 2 stroke oil brands...


Roger

The only reason they recommend leaded in the manual is because it was still readily avail when the bike was produced but 93 is just fine for a mostly stock motor I ran it for years with no prob

[Daddio]

Actually lead also helps to cool the combustion chamber. Engines in cars that were manufactured before 1970 weren't designed to run unleaded fuel and need the lead additives to prolong engine life. I'm not sure that it would be worth it to put it in your threewheeler. A good oil will be the most important thing you could do for it. Good oil is far cheaper than a rebuild.;)

[roger86200x]

On my weekly visit to walmart at 12:00 midnight I found no 2 stroke oil but the crap supertech so I passed. I have quality Stihl chainsaw 2 stroke oil that I might use for the first batch... yay or nay?

I did not find Mobil 1 2 stroke oil...which sux... I run Mobil 1 5w-20 Full Synthetic in my 2008 Ford F-250 and I love it... improves starting in the cold & gas mileage went up by 2 mpg!

What brands are the good ones for 2 stroke oil? How about like Arctic Cat snowmobile 2 stroke oil? etc.... So far I see Mobil 1 and amsoil....


1 other question.... 93 vs 87 octane... which fuel produces more power? I have read conflicting info on this.... I have never actually heard the differences besides the octane points....

Roger

[fabiodriven]

I always run 93 in my trikes/bikes/sleds just because it's only 2-3 gallons anyways. What are you gonna save by running 87 octane, $1.50? I heard that there is no actual gain from the octane itself. The only way it benefits any motor is the higher the octane, the higher compression you can run. More compression=more horsepower. So technically, if you can run 87 and not get any knocking, you would be fine. If you can get away with running 87 but you use 93 anyways, there is no real gain.

[1upfront]

I always run 93 in my trikes/bikes/sleds just because it's only 2-3 gallons anyways. What are you gonna save by running 87 octane, $1.50? I heard that there is no actual gain from the octane itself. The only way it benefits any motor is the higher the octane, the higher compression you can run. More compression=more horsepower. So technically, if you can run 87 and not get any knocking, you would be fine. If you can get away with running 87 but you use 93 anyways, there is no real gain.

I ran 87 once in a 83 250r and it pinged horribly in 5th gear wot under a load so I drained it and changed back to 93 and the pre ignition problem was gone, I wouldn't recommend using 87.

[boosted96cobra]

The lower octane fuel you can run and NOT detonate the more power you will make. The higher the octane the harder it is to burn. This is how octane works, but I would run 92-93, and in my 84 I always ran a shot of lead substitute. I got those bottles they have at VATOZONE and used like 1/4 in each tank.

Remeber with the air cooled motor you have to worry about it getting hot. Just because it runs good right when you start it up doesn't mean it will halfway out in the dunes on a hot day.

I run klotz r-50 32:1 for oil. I have heard good reviews with the mobil 1 and injex or whatever it is called. I ran klotz most of the summer on my airfooler, then did a dune trip on the valvoline 2 stroke and cracked my piston, so yeah use good oil.

[SWIGIN]

The lower octane fuel you can run and NOT detonate the more power you will make. The higher the octane the harder it is to burn. This is how octane works,

i wish this was a sticky on every page.......100% correct

[roger86200x]

lol so I take it that valvolione sux..... sorry 2 hear that! I went thru the cracked and broken piston split the cases to et it all out ...etc just a bit ago so I know that it sux.


Would everyone agree that the Mobil 1 is good stuff or is it in the valvoline category? lol....

I need to find something around here that I can easily get or order I guess thats "good" stuff. I dont know if the Stihl oil is good or not but I have dealer right down the road...

big question for me... once you run full synthetic or part synthetic can you go back to regular 2 stroke oil? I know in trucks you definately are not supposed to....but this is 2 stroke vs 4 so I dont know...

Seriously tho.... is the Stihl or Arctic Cat 2 stroke oil any good or is it junk?

Roger

[SWIGIN]

i'll only run yamalube oil at 32-1

sorry, dont help much

[Autophysn]

hope to gain some info here as well, I just got my first 86' 250r.
But the frame sticker says to run 20:1 and the guy who had it before me said he would use 91/Bel Ray MC-2?, @20:1. I think that is right.

We can't get 93 anymore out here. Highest octane now is 91.
Why is Golden Spectro not so hot any more?
I know it was what Honda recommended and usually sells at the dealerships out here?

[edog]

hope to gain some info here as well, I just got my first 86' 250r.
But the frame sticker says to run 20:1 and the guy who had it before me said he would use 91/Bel Ray MC-2?, @20:1. I think that is right.

We can't get 93 anymore out here. Highest octane now is 91.
Why is Golden Spectro not so hot any more?
I know it was what Honda recommended and usually sells at the dealerships out here?

Golden Spectro is fine to use.:rolleyes:
91 will be fine to use. If you you were so inclined you could use Klotz octane booster to make up the points.

20:1 is what the factory rated.Todays oils are better.

[88 Turbo Coupe]

Stihl oil might work well. Chainsaw mix is 50:1 Some chain saws run at 14000 rpm. The sleeves are plated though. Makes a big difference. What's your rev limit on your R? A freind of mine travels around the country and builds the pro circuit MX tracks (a pretty cool job). He told me teams run Yamalube. FWIW

I have run 50 and 100:1 Amsoil Dominator synthetic in one of my ported 300R's. 60 over, aluminium sleeve, nicosil plated, Weisco.

[mustangmachanic]

Blendsall in very thing smells great an ive allways sworn by it 25:1

[Daddio]

I don't know about the stihl or arctic cat but Mobil1 is pretty good. Amsoil Dominator is the best I've seen. When we pull 1upfronts engines down after race season to check things out and get them ready for next season the we find no carbon on the head or piston. Also virtually no wear on the cylinder which is pretty amazing considering what he puts them through. When he started racing he used Mobil1 and had similar results but did notice carbon on the piston and head even though it was minimal. Carbon buildup will cause hot spots and can lead to more serious problems.Just my 2 cents.
P.S. 1upfront ordered his amsoil online. It came from the nearest dealer which was about 35 miles away and shipping on half a case was cheaper than the gas it would have taken to drive there. He got it two days after it was ordered. :)

[edog]

I don't know about the stihl or arctic cat but Mobil1 is pretty good. Amsoil Dominator is the best I've seen. When we pull 1upfronts engines down after race season to check things out and get them ready for next season the we find no carbon on the head or piston. Also virtually no wear on the cylinder which is pretty amazing considering what he puts them through. When he started racing he used Mobil1 and had similar results but did notice carbon on the piston and head even though it was minimal. Carbon buildup will cause hot spots and can lead to more serious problems.Just my 2 cents.
P.S. 1upfront ordered his amsoil online. It came from the nearest dealer which was about 35 miles away and shipping on half a case was cheaper than the gas it would have taken to drive there. He got it two days after it was ordered. :)

Good info.

I mite try some of that Amsoil Dominator.

Got any pics of the carbon diffences?

[Daddio]

Good info.

I mite try some of that Amsoil Dominator.

Got any pics of the carbon diffences?

Quite possibly, I'll have to check.

[edog]

Quite possibly, I'll have to check.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fabiodriven]

The lower octane fuel you can run and NOT detonate the more power you will make. .

That was pretty much the point I was trying to get accross. Sometimes it's tough for me to articulate.

[fabiodriven]

Why is Golden Spectro not so hot any more?
?

THere is nothing wrong with it, it's just been surpassed by alot of the synthetics, plus it leaves alot of goo and carbon and stuff which can jam powervalves and such. I would still use it if I had to, but the mobil 1 is good stuff and it smells sweet!

[snowwolf]

i found this site on the oil you are talking about http://www..htmNew AMSOIL "Fabulous Four" 2-Cycle Oils provide second-to-none protection and performance in modern two-cycle equipment

Two-cycle engines remain the workhorses in recreational equipment, including outboard motors, motorcycles, snowmobiles and personal watercraft, as well as in lawn and garden applications like lawn mowers and weed eaters. Design changes over recent years have included direct fuel injection engines, in which fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber, and exhaust power valves, which improve combustion efficiency at varying RPM. These design changes have allowed two-cycle engine manufacturers to effectively reduce emissions, improve fuel efficiency and decrease oil consumption. Today's two-cycle motors of all types require specialized oil technology to deliver maximum engine protection, dependable operation and long service life

As the leader in two-cycle oil technology, AMSOIL has performed extensive research in developing a new line of revolutionary, specialized oils called the "Fabulous Four." AMSOIL INTERCEPTOR Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil (AIT) was the first new oil to be introduced. It is primarily recommended as an injector oil or at a 50:1 mix ratio in carbureted, electronic fuel injected (EFI) and direct fuel injected (DFI) snowmobiles, personal watercraft, motorcycles and ATV's. Formulated with wax-free premium quality synthetic esters and a specialized additive package, INTERCEPTOR is designed to address the exhaust valve sticking problems associated with certain snowmobile models.

New AMSOIL HP Injector Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil (HPI), DOMINATOR Synthetic 2-Cycle Racing Oil (TDR) and Saber Professional (ATP) and Outboard (ATO) Synthetic 100:1 Pre-Mix 2-Cycle Oils complete the Fabulous Four lineup, replacing AMSOIL Synthetic 2-Cycle Injector Oil, Series 2000 Synthetic 2-Cycle Racing Oil and 100:1 Pre-Mix Synthetic 2-Cycle Oil, respectively. The application chart below ranks each oil's performance in common two-cycle applications.

TWO-CYCLE OIL RECOMMENDATION
AMSOIL Product Outboard* Snowmobile*,
Motorcycle* & ATV* Personal Watercraft*
& Jet Boat* Chainsaw,
Chop Saw & Pump Weed Eater,
Blower & Lawn Mower Moped, Scooter
& Go-Cart
HP Injector (HPI)
TC-W3, API TC
(Injection or 50:1 Pre-Mix) Excellent Very Good Very Good Not recommended Not recommended Not recommended
INTERCEPTOR (AIT)
API TC, JASO FC Not recommended Excellent Excellent Good Good Good
DOMINATOR (TDR)
API TC, JASO FC Racing (1) Racing (2) Racing (2) Very Good Very Good Very Good
Saber Professional 100:1 (ATP)
Pre-Mix ISO-L-EGD
JASO FC, API TC Not recommended Very Good
Pre-Mix Only Very Good
Pre-Mix Only Excellent Excellent Excellent
Saber Outboard 100:1 (ATO)
Pre-Mix, TC-W3, API TC Excellent
Pre-Mix Only Very Good
Pre-Mix Only Very Good
Pre-Mix Only Not recommended Not recommended Not recommended

Even though AMSOIL 2-Cycle Oils have been optimized for specific applications, they are multi-functional and recommended for use in many areas. The chart rates each oil's performance abilities per application as follows:

Excellent: "The" primary recommendation for the oil. This is the best possible choice for the application. The oil is specifically designed for the operating conditions of the motors in these markets. There is only one "Excellent" recommendation per category.

Very Good: A main recommendation for the oil. Identifies an oil that is very good for the operating conditions of these motors.

Good: A secondary recommendation for an oil. The oil was not specifically designed for these applications, however, the chemistry in the oil is suited to the operating conditions of these motors.

Not Recommended: Identifies applications where the product was not intended for use. "Excellent" rated products otter superior performance.

Racing:

(1) Not recommended for long-term use in outboard motors as a TC-W3 type oil, although excellent as a race oil for short term use where motors are periodically inspected.

(2) Excellent for racing or modified motors. Very good for recreational use.

*Recommended for all (OFI) direct fuel injected, (EFI) electronic fuel injected, and carbureted motors. Outboard motors include Mercury®, Optimax®, Johnson® & Evinrude® FICHT® & E-TEC®, Yamaha® HPDI, Nissan® & Tohatsu® TLDI®

See the New Product Line Interview With Alan Amatuzio

[WIkid500]

Amsoil is good stuff. We run the interceptor in our snowmobiles, the dominator is very good too.

I'm up in the air as to what I will run in my X when It's done. I think it will be a full synthetic Amsoil for a 4 stroke. The little stroker is going to need a good oil.

[Dirtcrasher]

Golden Spectro has always worked well for me. I never blew up any 2 strokes 20 years ago. Heck, even the bottle itself just changed a few years back :lol:

But, I must say that every silencer and headpipe that used it oozed globs of oil and that was at the bottle to 6 gallons of gas.

There have been huge milestones made in the past years with synthetics and other oils and I think as long as you stay out of Walmart and get over to the bike shop, any of those products will work well for you.

It's all about personal preference. But, If I were to tear apart an engine that ran the whole season and it barely had any carbon build up, I think I'd stick with that same mixture and manufacturer..........

[njeffery]

I run GP7 in my Z, my buddy runs redline and he's been on the same top end for the last 5 years!

[roger86200x]

WOW... there is a lot of good info in this thread already! I never imagined to get this kind of feedback...


I have a good list of oils to look into now and it seems 32:1 is the right ratio with synthetics..

The one question I have still is if I use a synthetic can I go back to a regular oil if I had to? I know vehicles you are not supposed to...but thats a 4 stroke with oil pumps, seals, etc...

besides online, where do y'll get your 2stroke oil?


Roger

[njeffery]

local bike shop or auto parts store.

[roger86200x]

lol....well yah... I was looking for a little more specific...

like autozone around here only carries crap..... Honda isnt ever open..ll on sundays anyways.... and I HATE going to the honda dealer here.... they SUCK and are pricks.

lol

There isnt any place around here I guess that I can get 2 stroke oil on a SUNDAY...

I guess ill go get my 6 pack of Stihl oil.... 6 bottles makes 2.5 gallons x 6 @ 50:1...(6.4 fl oz each)

so... Ill just use 16 ounces for 2.5 gallons to get a ratio of 20:1 cuz its not syntehtic... cuz DAMN IT I want to ride! lol

[3Razors]

I know alot will probably scoff at this but there are many top 2 stroke builders that just run 2 stroke outbard oil namely Pennzoil Pure Premium or Quicksilver that you can get at almost any Walmart. It's a good synthetic blend oil that you can get for about $10 a gallon, most people that run it in ATV's mix between 20-32:1 with it. I've used it myself with great results and I don't promote junk. Even Rotax engine corp. recommends it for there ultralite aircraft motors.

Another note NEVER ever go leaner than 50:1 with any oil no matter what the bottle says. It's a sham and your crankshaft/lower end life will seriously be compromised.

[edog]

The one question I have still is if I use a synthetic can I go back to a regular oil if I had to? I know vehicles you are not supposed to...but thats a 4 stroke with oil pumps, seals, etc...

You should be able to switch between regular and synthetic 2 stroke oils with out any problems.

I think that rule applies to 4 pokes only.


Say you have an old 350X with oil and dirt on the motor, but its not leaking anymore.

The leak has sorta sealed itself. The machine like that probliy has been used

to 5W 30 or something close to that. When you use the synthetic it loosens

the seal made. This is how the leaks begins.

[roger86200x]

ATTENTION ATTENTION:

Mobil 1 discontinued the MX2T s stroke oil in the fall of 2007.... .WTF?

SO.... I guess its gonna be amsoil for me then.... damn it - no luck in picking it up locally.

So anyone that uses the mobil 1...be prepared for it to go away forever! Once stock runs out its gone!

According to Mobil anyways...

Roger

[Daddio]

Good info.

I mite try some of that Amsoil Dominator.

Got any pics of the carbon diffences?

Well edog:pics: :pics: :pics: I didn't find a good pic of the Mobil1 piston but we made a video of the Amsoil piston and the silencer for your viewing pleasure. I hope you enjoy.:D
Okay this is the only pic I could find of the mobil1 piston, it's on the right. Duh

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/lrdunlap/100_0420.jpg

This is the vid of the amsoil piston from last years engine. It is still a very usable piston.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/lrdunlap/th_100_0602-1.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/lrdunlap/?action=view&current=100_0602-1.flv)

Here is what the silencer looks like. This was repacked after trikefest so at this point it has five days of racing on it plus some test and tune sessions. Note the gray color of the baffle. This bike runs cam2 110 leaded race fuel with amsoil Dominator 2stroke race oil mixed 20-1. So for those who think that is too much oil you might want to reconsider that thought.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/lrdunlap/th_100_0601.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/lrdunlap/?action=view&current=100_0601.flv)

In case it was missed this is the only way this thing is run . Can you say W.O.T.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/lrdunlap/th_100_0586.jpg (http://s39.photobucket.com/albums/e183/lrdunlap/?action=view&current=100_0586.flv)

[3Razors]

Daddio I am a true believer in 20:1 myself. But I wouldn't run synthetic at 20:1 as it doesn't burn off or contribute to the combustion process as good as a castor based oil. Running rich ratios with synthetic oil actually hurts power output, with synthetic oils I never go richer than 32:1.

[fabiodriven]

Daddio, I'm a bit confused by your comparisons- do you like the Mobil 1?

[fabiodriven]

ATTENTION ATTENTION:

Mobil 1 discontinued the MX2T s stroke oil in the fall of 2007.... .WTF?


According to Mobil anyways...

Roger

I don't think that's correct- I'll double check, but I just bought a quart this summer at autozone

[Daddio]

Daddio, I'm a bit confused by your comparisons- do you like the Mobil 1?
Yes mobil1 is a very good oil. We used it for two years with no problems. We started using amsoil a couple years ago and have had excellent results. Also the 300 has turned into a racer only in the last few years. We did some research and decided to use a race oil because of the amount of money going into the engine. It seemed like a good insurance policy to use a premium quality oil.
We were using castor 927 in the trail 250r and after trikefest had to replace some bottom end bearings so we decided to switch that over as well. So far so good.

[fabiodriven]

10-4, Daddio-

[Daddio]

Daddio I am a true believer in 20:1 myself. But I wouldn't run synthetic at 20:1 as it doesn't burn off or contribute to the combustion process as good as a castor based oil. Running rich ratios with synthetic oil actually hurts power output, with synthetic oils I never go richer than 32:1.

We have never had a problem with the synthetic oil not burning off. Check the vid of the silencer. There is very little soot in that pipe. As far as not making more power that could be true but that thing runs like crazy. Like I said in the video ,it's jetted properly for the mixture.

[3Razors]

I agree, I meant burn off as in aiding to the combustion process for power.

[Daddio]

I agree, I meant burn off as in aiding to the combustion process for power.

What we are able to do with that ratio is jet it leaner without having to worry about longevity issues. :naughty:

[toocheaptosmoke]

I wouldn't hesitate to run the Stihl oil, I have used it in the past on things other than saws, but it isn't cheap. All the abuse my saws take running 13,000 RPM in 90 degree weather, bogged down in saw dust, and they keep going. I've even talked to a few sled racers who swear by the Stihl oil, running it in their stuff. :beer

[300rman]

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=81929

read the whole thread, JOE_F7 mentions a contact to get Klotz for 31 bucks a gallon shipped!

[Autophysn]

So for us non racing guys who just run for fun......

32:1 of 2 cycle of your preference ( syntec or not) ??????????:p

[3Razors]

Yes, you will be fine with 32:1 with a nice synthetic or synthetic blend. There are lots of good oils out there. Just run plenty of oil and you will be good to go.

[boosted96cobra]

I swear klotz must be a utah thing...everyone here runs it. Plus everyone seems to have dune cut fenders too...wtf?

[fabiodriven]

I swear klotz must be a utah thing...everyone here runs it. Plus everyone seems to have dune cut fenders too...wtf?

You guys don't need your fenders. We do-

[clvantress]

Hey roger, we're you get your silencer from?