Tires, and a 450R swinger on my 86 R......now with pics and questions.

[InPiEcEs]

I finally decided on tires for my 250R, and went with 20" 4-ply Razr's.
While I was pulling the wheels off the back, I figured I may as well tackle putting a 450R swinger on it as well.:naughty:
I am using an 04-05 450R swinger.
I have read a few posts on the swap, but mine ended up being nothing like I had read having to do. Definitely not a bolt-on, or close to one either.
Maybe because I'm running the nylon bushings from X.system. I don't know.
I will say it involved more than just making the linkage mount on the swingarm wider.
It's done, and done right. I can use all stock parts, with the possible exception of stock swinger bearings, as well.
I will post pics, and explanations tomorrow.

[Eric250R]

Thanks, I definately look forward to reading as I was planning on doing this myself.

[InPiEcEs]

Here are the pics.
I know......the front tire needs air, and stuff like that, but it's still my ice tire on there.:D

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c15/hemo123/250R/P1010395.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c15/hemo123/250R/P1010402.jpg




On the 450R swinger, it had collars that needed to be cut off on the two outsides, where the 250R is flush. I milled them off, once I got the 450R seals, and bearings and whatnot out of the swinger.
I then compared the two swingers for width at the front, and the outside was fine.
I had to mill some off the inside to make it the same as the 250R swinger.
I then pressed in the nylon bushing inserts, removed from my old swinger.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c15/hemo123/250R/P1010396.jpg?t=1206078268

I had to drill the linkage bolt hole bigger on one side, and put a bushing in on the other side. The original 250R linkage bolt was too short, being the 450R mount is thicker. I had to use a longer one from another machine.......not sure of which bike though.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c15/hemo123/250R/P1010397.jpg?t=1206078318


After that, it went right on, with the only thing having to be done was to find a shouldered nylon bushing to go over the caliper bracket pin on the swingarm.
The one one there now is brass. I may have to make a nylon bushing to work, if I can't find one.
The 450R pin is different than the 250R pin. I think the nylon button from the 250R swinger would go on, but the pin isn't long enough to accept a clip to hold it in place.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c15/hemo123/250R/P1010400.jpg

I wish I would have taken pics during the process, but, of course, I didn't:crazy:
I now have to adjust my chain length........it's too long now.
Otherwise, the rear came up roughly 1.5 inches, and I'm not sure how the shock rate changed yet. I am using 250R shock and linkage with this setup.

[Jason Hall]

Honda changed the linkage setup on the 400ex, and the 450r. The reason for that was It will hit the aluminum swingarm when the suspension Is compressed. If you unhook your shock with a jack under the frame, you will see when you lower the bike down the 250r lower shock bolt will hit the swinger. If you use the 450r linkage you would be better off. I don't think the 250r linkage mount on the bottom of the frame Is In the same spot as the 450r either (In referance to the swingarm pivot bolt). The linkage has an exact ratio that Honda even had a hard time engineering on the 04-05 TRX. Every aftermarket company makes a link to stop the kickback of the 04-05 TRX.

[InPiEcEs]

I'll see how this works once I start riding it. I didn't see any issues with anything hitting anywhere. It does seem like that shock rate is stiffer the last half of travel.
I guess it wouldn't hurt to pick a 450R linkage and see what's what. Thanks for the info.

[InPiEcEs]

Honda changed the linkage setup on the 400ex, and the 450r. The reason for that was It will hit the aluminum swingarm when the suspension Is compressed. If you unhook your shock with a jack under the frame, you will see when you lower the bike down the 250r lower shock bolt will hit the swinger. If you use the 450r linkage you would be better off. I don't think the 250r linkage mount on the bottom of the frame Is In the same spot as the 450r either (In referance to the swingarm pivot bolt). The linkage has an exact ratio that Honda even had a hard time engineering on the 04-05 TRX. Every aftermarket company makes a link to stop the kickback of the 04-05 TRX.

You were definitely right about the linkage hitting. It hits at about the last third of the travel. The next question is will the 250R shock work with the 450R linkage, or do I need to go with a 450R shock as well? If the 250R shock will work, how well will it work. Also, does using the 450R shock and linkage affect ride height from 250R stock?
If someone could measure a 450R shock length from eye to eye, and width at the eyes, inside and outside at the bottom, too, that would be great! ;)
The next question is what other shocks would work? I'm thinking 400EX, and trying to research YFZ450, and LTR450 shocks.

[Aka_am]

I'm pretty sure the 250r shock fits! I don't know the ride height though, I tihnk it was an inch higher?

[Dirtcrasher]

I'm about to do the same conversion but on a 350X.

I scored an 06 axle and swinger and carrier for short money - WHOOPIE!!

I bought another frame to gusset and expirement with and hope to use the new Fox Podium shock I have or get it revalved, I'm 200lbs so it may work out.

It's gonna take awhile but I want to get it right and doing it on my riding bike wasn't gonna work for me.

Keep us updated on the shock and linkage. I've read numerous posts of the 450R shock being much to stiff.

[Jason Hall]

The bottom shock clevis Is wider on the 250, I think the lower shock bolt on the 250 Is bigger also. If I were you, I would use 450r linkage and make the 250r shock fit It. I know for sure the 450 shock Is crazy stiff compared to a 250R.

[Jason Hall]

The stock 04-05 trx shock Is shorter than the atc shock but only about 1/2" or so. If you use a 06-07 front 450 link It will lay the shock back farther. The distance from the linkage front frame mounting hole to where the shock mounts Is farther apart on the 06-08 link than the 04-05 link. Because the 250 shock Is longer, the 06-07 linkage will keep your ride height lower with the slightly longer 250R shock. The rear dogbones are also different lengths. This gets real confusing, so I'll shut up :beer :lol:

[InPiEcEs]

I'm gonna give it a shot with likely an 04-05 450R linkage, and my 250R shock.;)
I'm wondering about 400EX, LTR 450R, and YFZ 450 shocks as well.
Any thoughts on these?, or maybe say a 450R shock, and possibly a 250R spring on it?

[Dammit!]

So all this BS to make the 450r swinger work, is any of that needed if you're mounting up a 2006 or newer 450r swinger? I thought the newer ones were direct bolt ons with no mods other than some type of brake spacer needed. :wondering

[Aka_am]

yeah i heard it was basically bolt on, just file a mm here and there

[InPiEcEs]

Okay......I have scored an 04-05 linkage. I shpuld have it within a week.
As far as making the swinger bolt up in the frame, I had to trim the collars that the seals went onto off of the 450R swinger. That made it the same outside width as the 250R swinger. I then measured the width of the 250R swing arm front tubes, as well as measured inside width, and trimmed the 450R swinger down to what it needed to be. If you all want, I can measure my stock 250R swinger with a caliper, and post it, if needed.
Ive got a feeling that since I did a little work on the rear linkage mount on the 450R swinger, I may have to to a little science work to it for the 450R linkage.:rolleyes:
Maybe not, though. It may be as simple as a different bushing, or something, since I used the bigger 250R bolt in it. Some thoughts on shock options would be great, as I have heard, besides here, that the 450R shock is stiff on the ATC. I'm gonna start with my stock shock, which I think needs a rebuild.:D

[Jason Hall]

I have never personally put a 450r swinger on a atc R. I did put one on my 350x, and Derricks Tri-Z. I know the 250r carrier's can be fitted to the 450 swinger with a spacer, we did that with Derricks 450. All the 450 swingers I have put on needed the front pivot section milled down some. I never said this was a direct bolt on & don't know who did.

InPiEcEs, The YFZ 450 shock Is way to long for an R It's 18.5" from eye to eye, and has a cr 500 style linkage setup. Another thing to remember Is GT thunder and lots of other companys make a link for the 04-05 trx that will help keep the ride height lower because of the shape of the link. Here Is a link to a good deal on an aftermarket link for a 04-05. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/450R-Derisi-Racing-Linkage_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ43974QQihZ012QQ itemZ220214308847QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[Louis Mielke]

So all this BS to make the 450r swinger work, is any of that needed if you're mounting up a 2006 or newer 450r swinger? I thought the newer ones were direct bolt ons with no mods other than some type of brake spacer needed. :wondering

I know for a fact that the 450r swinger will fit into the 250r frame and the swinger bolt will go through with the dust seals in place. Beyond that its not just bolt in. The linkage between the 2 bikes is very different.

What I'm doing once all my parts get here and I'm ready to go is to use the 06 450r swinger, linkage, brake parts, axle, carrier, etc. with the the 250r shock. The lower mounting bolt for the 250r shock is bigger so some changes will have to be made as far as bushings and bolts in the 450 linkage.

The only other mod I'm expecting is some trimming on the spacers on the inside of the front of the 450r arm.

[Dirtcrasher]

Someone posted a bit ago that the aluminum area between the bearings has to have an aluminum collar welded in place. In this area below -

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh220/Dirtcrasher/2006450Rswingarm.jpg

Which in my opinion is the wrong way to go about this unless you lengthen the center spacer. The plan is that when the swingarm bolt is tightened that it doesn't side load the bearings. An aluminum collar welded between this space does not accomplish that. I'm planning on removing the 2 short inner spacers/collars and machining one long collar that runs the whole width of the swingarm to prevent the side loading. With one long collar/spacer there is no need to weld anything and the inner seals next to the needle bearing seals it all up.

Whoever it was, I hope they put a longer collar in there or a short piece between the existing short collars to prevent the binding.

[InPiEcEs]

Someone posted a bit ago that the aluminum area between the bearings has to have an aluminum collar welded in place. In this area below -

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh220/Dirtcrasher/2006450Rswingarm.jpg

Which in my opinion is the wrong way to go about this. The plan is that when the swingarm bolt is tightened that it doesn't side load the bearings. An aluminum collar welded between this space does not accomplish crap. I'm planning on removing the 2 short inner collars and machining one long collar that runs the whole width of the swingarm to prevent the side loading. With one long collar/spacer there is no need to weld anything.

Whoever it was, I hope they put a longer collar in there or a short piece between the existing short collars to prevent the binding.

If you look at the area where the dust collars are on the swinger pictured here, you will see that they are obviously removable.
I had to mill off the collars that they sit on, on my 450R swinger at the 2 outside ends, so that I could use nylon bushings, which I like better than the stock stuff.

[jeffatc250r]

Not sure why i didnt have any problems. All i did was use the 250r front pivot busings and used the 2 450r dust seals on the outside. The only other thing i had to do was make a new bushing for the rear link mount.

[InPiEcEs]

I'm thinking it is because I'm using the nylon bushings in mine.
That's probably why I had to do some milling.

[kxt250r]

I know for a fact that the 450r swinger will fit into the 250r frame and the swinger bolt will go through with the dust seals in place. Beyond that its not just bolt in. The linkage between the 2 bikes is very different.

What I'm doing once all my parts get here and I'm ready to go is to use the 06 450r swinger, linkage, brake parts, axle, carrier, etc. with the the 250r shock. The lower mounting bolt for the 250r shock is bigger so some changes will have to be made as far as bushings and bolts in the 450 linkage.

The only other mod I'm expecting is some trimming on the spacers on the inside of the front of the 450r arm.


your not concerned with the extra height?

[Louis Mielke]

With the right linkage there won't be any extra height. I'm using the 06 arm with is stock length. I'm fairly certain that the extra height doesn't come into play until you mix and match linkages. I'm going to use the 450 linkage. If all else fails and it is higher I'll be using a lower link.

[InPiEcEs]

Another thing that may be possible is an adjustable length link, maybe using heim joints. Similar to the 250R adjustable strut. Then you could put the height right where you want it.

[kxt250r]

i think you'll find it will sit up a bit high with the 250r shock. the adjustable linkage runs at around $90 (more than a swingers worth).. the 04-05 linkage i think is shorter tho, also the 88-89 trx linkage may be worth a go..

[Louis Mielke]

I'm using 06/07 parts.

[brapp]

i used 04-05 entire rear end and had the 450 linkage and shock at my disposal and the easiest with minimal modification is do what jeff did and use the 250r pivot bushings and the 450r dust caps. but i also used a trx 250 shock and linkage since its alli had at this point. but i just turned my preload down a few turns and let it sag slightly. the ride height is similar but about an inch and 1/2 higher but i am big boy so it works out better for me . and i also belive due to the more further foreward linkage pin location on the trx450 swingarm i belive it gives you slightly longer travel also and as far as the rubbign in concerned i just used a flat file and cleane dit up so i had a 1/32 -1 /16inch cleariance between the linkage and swinger.

[InPiEcEs]

I definitely have to change out the linkage. It definitely is gonna hit on the bigger bumps when it gets to the last third of the travel. I removed the shock, and cycled the suspension.....it hits.......:( I'm just glad someone pointed it out, because I would have never thought it would have been an issue otherwise. (thanks on that save Jason Hall:beer )
I'm gonna give the 04-05 450R linkage a try with my shock, and see how that works out. If it's too high, then the thought process continues........:rolleyes:

[Dirtcrasher]

I definitely have to change out the linkage. It definitely is gonna hit on the bigger bumps when it gets to the last third of the travel. I removed the shock, and cycled the suspension.....it hits.......:( I'm just glad someone pointed it out, because I would have never thought it would have been an issue otherwise. (thanks on that save Jason Hall:beer )
I'm gonna give the 04-05 450R linkage a try with my shock, and see how that works out. If it's too high, then the thought process continues........:rolleyes:


It's hard.... Were not Honda engineers :D I'm gonna make some linkage changes with 1/8 steel and different hole spacing, just to see what may feel and clear correctly. In the end, there might not be any combonation of stock parts that get it perfect. We may have to machine our own link with our own hole locations. Of course the 250R would be different than the 350X which makes it even more complicated :rolleyes:

I have an 04 link here I could take some measurements for you if you need them.

The good news is just about anything would be better than stock 350X suspension. And all of these swaps are allot easier than when I tried to get good suspension out of a 250SX.

[InPiEcEs]

The 450R linkage is temporarily in place just to mock it up.
I believe it's in properly........here goes.
The single dogbone goes up front, and the shock bolts up behind the center linkage bolt. That's how I have it in place right now, and using my stock shock.
The ride height with no rider is about the same as when I had the 250R linkage in place with the stock shock, which I would say is 1.5 to 2 inches above stock..
It still seems a hair stiff, but my shock spring can be turned down quite a bit yet.
I'll have to get a few rides in once I get another front rim to mount my tire, and see how it is.
I wonder if it would be possible to use an adjustable length front dogbone to adjust ride height for different purposes, i.e trail, flat track......etc.

[bigpimpin]

how does the rear brake cable get mounted to the swinger? which chin guide gets used the 450r or 250r?

[InPiEcEs]

I just made up a bracket to bolt up a brake-line guide.
I am using the 450R chain guide.......works fine.