83 200e, went through it!!!

[Twilight]

I went through the engine and did all that i would do to a 2 stroke, well even though my last compression was less than 20, i figured to give it a try. The gaskets and head are what I assume is wrong with it. It had some weird rubber stuff on top of the gaskets that peeled off like nothing. After just bolting in the engine and tightening 2 things, I did a compression test; 75psi. That gel crap on it must have been complete **** for it.

The piston is still shiny and the dome of the head is black... is this right? It has a feeling like sandstone, which is good on two strokes.

Whats the best bang for my buck on gaskets?

[Dirtcrasher]

An 83 200E is a 2 stroke??

Regardless, 75psi isn't enough, you gotta break about 140psi.

Cometic ans Vesrah both seem to be decent gasket kits.

Nothing terribly wrong with a bit of carbon on the piston.

[Twilight]

What I meant was that I dont know 4 strokes at all, so I went through the engine and did what I would to a 2 stroke.

[Havoxx]

What I meant was that I dont know 4 strokes at all, so I went through the engine and did what I would to a 2 stroke.

Well, first off, check the valves, if they aren't seated properly, you lose all your compression, my engine was supposed to have 170 minimum compression, it had 85, dismantled it, sure enough, the valve seats were gone(engine had been sitting and got rust), so the piston was compressing fine, but the valves stayed open, and let out the compression.

If you haven't already, get a manual, and stop messing with the engine without one, especially if you've never messed with a 4-stroke, it's a completely different animal.

[Twilight]

I do have a manual, andf I have found through that how different it is. How do I check the valves? I can feel air being sucked through carb end and coming out exhaust end. Thats as far as my knowledge goes.

I have no idea on fourstrokes, but thats why I have this, to learn.

[Havoxx]

I do have a manual, andf I have found through that how different it is. How do I check the valves? I can feel air being sucked through carb end and coming out exhaust end. Thats as far as my knowledge goes.

I have no idea on fourstrokes, but thats why I have this, to learn.

Well, me and my dad just shuve some liquid in through the intake and exhaust holes and see if the valves leak, don't use water for this of course if you do it that way, if not, in the manual there is a page that tells you how to check them...

And, I do suggest you get a valve removal tool, but, if you can't, to take them off, you get a deep socket, and smack it with a hammer on the top of the spring... This is a VERY risky way to do it, because you can loose the valve keeper(thing that holds the spring down). You can probably pick up a cheap tool in an auto-parts store, but take your head with you so you can make sure it fits :D.

Also, I'm not sure if timing effects compression, I'm almost sure it doesn't, but someone might shed light on that.

[Twilight]

I have another head coming from a member that will be good to use, so i will try all with this head =). I do know I need gaskets though. I did a leak down test the poor man way (soapy water) and saw air bubbles form.

Any advice for removing old gaskets? On a two stroke I just took the old one off with an exacto knife and sanded slightly.

[Havoxx]

I personally use a razor blade and then use an air grinder I have with a fine head to clear off the excess gasket, they get incredibly stuck on there when they're old :D, don't use sandpaper though, it can ruin the head, use a soft wool or something that won't dig into it :P.

[Twilight]

Thanks =) All these parts should be here this week.

[Twilight]

Rebuilt, new gaskets, engine still wont start and doesnt hit even 100psi compression.

I give up. Its for free on the corner cause im pissed.

[Somekindofjerk]

Dont give up so easy! what do you mean by rebuilt what did you do?


Allso how many compression strokes are you doing with the comp gauge?

[Havoxx]

Rebuilt, new gaskets, engine still wont start and doesnt hit even 100psi compression.

I give up. Its for free on the corner cause im pissed.

Don't give up, mine only hit 90 compression after the rebuild, I tore it down again, removed the studs, took a buffer to the bottom end, and put it back together, and, voila, 170 compression.

make sure there is NO trace of that old gasket, you gotta be on completely bare metal or the gasket is useless, also make sure you put the piston rings one to each direction( NSEW).

Don't give up, it's a good machine, and it will give ya years of fun, I mean, just look at my piece of junk, 2 weeks into it, and I just got it started today, but... I gotta tell ya, it was possibly the best feeling of my life :D.

[Twilight]

Don't give up, mine only hit 90 compression after the rebuild, I tore it down again, removed the studs, took a buffer to the bottom end, and put it back together, and, voila, 170 compression.

make sure there is NO trace of that old gasket, you gotta be on completely bare metal or the gasket is useless, also make sure you put the piston rings one to each direction( NSEW).

Don't give up, it's a good machine, and it will give ya years of fun, I mean, just look at my piece of junk, 2 weeks into it, and I just got it started today, but... I gotta tell ya, it was possibly the best feeling of my life :D.

So easily? Its been like this since June of last year, constantly doing new things. It was metal on metal when I put the new gaskets on, has a new head, rocker box, I dunno what you mean by piston rings one to each direction, but still it doesnt matter. I could have bought a new engine for the cost of all this.

Its a POS. Ive had 2 strokes rusted and been able to have the engine run again, this thing just is a true POS, I dont give up on things easily, but Ive done everything, step by step over and over, with nothing. I know that if I take it apart again, another cylinder gasket will get torn, and then I will be outta money again.

[Somekindofjerk]

on a four stroke there are no guide pins in the piston for the rings. You need to stagger them to make sure you get compression.

Try taking off the head and jug and measuring the piston O.D and cylinder I.D and compare the two. There should only be about .0006-.0018" (.004"MAX)

Allso set the the compression ring in the cylinder and use the piston to level it in the bore and measure ring gap in the cylinder that should be .0006-.0018" (.004"MAX)

Allso adjust your valves when you get the engine reassembled to .003"

[Twilight]

on a four stroke there are no guide pins in the piston for the rings. You need to stagger them to make sure you get compression.

Try taking off the head and jug and measuring the piston O.D and cylinder I.D and compare the two. There should only be about .0006-.0018" (.004"MAX)

Allso set the the compression ring in the cylinder and use the piston to level it in the bore and measure ring gap in the cylinder that should be .0006-.0018" (.004"MAX)

Allso adjust your valves when you get the engine reassembled to .003"

I have no idea how to do any of that.

When I rebuilt the 200x, I pulled the whole top end off, put in a new cylinder and gaskets, put it all back together and its ran strong and fine for 2 years now. I dont see how this is any different

[Havoxx]

Might be off timing, and if the rings are in the wrong place, your not gonna get any compression.

There is 4 rings, make each of them point to a different direction, and try again :D.

[Twilight]

Might be off timing, and if the rings are in the wrong place, your not gonna get any compression.

There is 4 rings, make each of them point to a different direction, and try again :D.

That makes more sense, timing is dead on, unless again the 200x is different.

I'll look at the rings, nobody took it, but some kids were trying to start it :lol:

[Somekindofjerk]

The way it sounds it your piston to cylinder clearance is too large and all your compression is leaking right by the piston and rings. If you dont measure youll never know.

BTW the manual you said you have shows how to make all those measurements

[Twilight]

I dont have any of those tools, and by the time I buy them I could have bought a new engine. Can get one for 120 here. I may go that route.

Ive rebuilt engines and they all still run perfectly fine, this one has kicked my ass, and i knew it would since the day i started it and i heard odd noises.

[Dirtcrasher]

Sounds like you got lucky with the 200X motor.

If you don't stagger the rings then there will be a compression loss.

The top ring is also usually different than the second ring down and needs to be installed that way. Another place compression loss can happen would be valves out of time (still open a hair during compression) or a valve that isn't perfectly seated.

I always flip the head upside down and pour gas into the combustion chamber to see if it leaks through before I use a used head.

There is the possibility that it's the wrong piston but was it bored? Then they need the piston to get the right clearance. If someone just looked at the cylinder and said "no scratches, good to go" then that could be part of the problem too.

[Twilight]

I'll try the gas thing if it doesnt work today. Still on its honda bore and piston. I did get a lil sputter, but that was it.

[Twilight]

150lbs compression!!!! But no starting still, battery went dead after like 2min of trying.

I dumped gas in the cylinder and tried, but to no response... anything else I should do before I try again tomorrow?

[Havoxx]

150lbs compression!!!! But no starting still, battery went dead after like 2min of trying.

I dumped gas in the cylinder and tried, but to no response... anything else I should do before I try again tomorrow?

Not sure, but compression is the most important thing :D, read through the manual, it will tell you how to make sure the timing is right.

I know how it feels, the only difference is, me and my dad have worked on engines before, so we have some experience.

But I gotta tell ya, theres nothing like that feeling I got yesterday, the bike actually started, revved and all, it didn't stay on, but at least I know now it's worth it ya know.

As for the money, I've invested ~$200 into the motor already, valves were $50 for both, rings were $30, kit was $20, gaskets were $30, it's disgusting how prices are. But I gotta tell ya, I know it will last me for years to come, instead of some new made in china piece of crap that will last for 1-2 years and quit.

And holy *Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited*, your first compression test was 20? I just re-read your post, that thing must've been abused :D. If you can't get it started, it may well be worth just getting another motor, I didn't notice it was that bad. Hell, mine was pitted, rusted, and the valves didn't close, and it still got 90 compression lol.

[Twilight]

It had this rubber silicone crap on it that i could peel off like playdoh. It took like 2-3sec to hit 150psi, but it hit it.

I dont know how it ran before... but it must have been a miracle. The rings is what got me though, on the 2 strokes I have done, they have clips that seal them when set, and are in the same place.

I got a strong as hell spark and the timing was set by the manual. Unless I wasnt supposed to do it by the F mark at the end?

[Havoxx]

It had this rubber silicone crap on it that i could peel off like playdoh. It took like 2-3sec to hit 150psi, but it hit it.

I dont know how it ran before... but it must have been a miracle. The rings is what got me though, on the 2 strokes I have done, they have clips that seal them when set, and are in the same place.

I got a strong as hell spark and the timing was set by the manual. Unless I wasnt supposed to do it by the F mark at the end?

Nah, should be the T mark, I gotta be honest, not sure what the hell the F is for lol. make sure it's on the right stroke, the timing adjusting things won't move on the down stroke, but "should" have a little bit of free play on the up stroke, or vice versa, you'll know :P.

[Twilight]

It says that I line up the T mark with the O mark on the cam sproket... did that.

then; align the F mark with the index mark by turning the crankshaft clockwise, then align the pulse rotor and the pulse generator..

Thats the last step... did I do it wrong?

[Havoxx]

Ah, that I don't know, mine is completely different from that :D. Hopefully someone with a 200e posts and helps ya with that part.

[Twilight]

After the battery is done, im gonna be doing some serious cranking on that thing, lol

[Havoxx]

Yea, luckily I have an engine starter :D, so I can run 40 or 200 amps through it to get it started :D, though the 40 has some trouble with the compression boost it has now, gets stuck sometimes :D.
Anyway, I'm off to bed, good luck with the bike, keep us posted :D.

[Twilight]

Thanks man, have a good night =)

[Twilight]

Still cant figure this thing out =( Blah!!! what could be wrong!

Come on 200e guys, chime in for me.