When restoring/rebuilding, do any of you bother to check this ?

[Huffa]

I noticed it is rarely mentioned that "I had my rear shock oil changed and repressurerized with nitrogen".

It really should be part of a restore or not even a restore job, simply something that should be checked, your machine will certainly or should certainly ride better with it done, that's if you have one where it has the nitro and can be rebuilt.

It's always on my list no matter what machine I have but many just seem satisfied as long as the shock has damping and it goes up and down.

Figured if I pass this by some, they might go out and do so.

It could possibly mean the difference between endoing or not, or winning a drag race.

Same goes with your forks, reguarding just an oil change though.

Just dicking around on machine well no, not all that important but if your an agressive rider and ride long motos, that's where the rear shock will thank you very much and keep performing close to the same performace through out the moto.

Trail riding too ..........once that oil gets so hot the machine will tend to bounce more which translates into not getting traction climbing a rough hill and will give a slighty more bouncy ride, at least that's what I think will occur, on hot days more so too.

[Dirtcrasher]

I think most of us would love to have our shocks serviced. But, at the cost of close to a couple hundred bucks, most people would rather find another EBAY shock for 50$ that isn't leaking.

I always disassemble the front forks on anything I ride because usually no one changes that oil either. Thats a one hour or so job and 8.99$ for the oil. Most of the time I clean the seals and pop them right back in. It's easy and I have all the tools and knowledeg, unlike the rear shock!

Sometime I have to learn to service the rear shock myself because I have access to free nitrogen on my work truck......

[Nightbiker07]

you know that cylinder that attaches to the rear shock and makes it stiffer or softer by turning a dial?
How do you fix it when the dial stops making a difference in the shock stiffness?

[chris200x]

you know that cylinder that attaches to the rear shock and makes it stiffer or softer by turning a dial?
How do you fix it when the dial stops making a difference in the shock stiffness?

Rebuild it! ;)

I'm gonna hafta agree with DC on this one.. I'm guilty of this as well. Replacing is easier and cheaper. heck.. if its beat up ya cover it with a shock cover. :D

[rally4x4racer]

it costs how much to get them rebuilt / pressurized?

[Huffa]

Rebuild it! ;)

I'm gonna hafta agree with DC on this one.. I'm guilty of this as well. Replacing is easier and cheaper. heck.. if its beat up ya cover it with a shock cover. :D

Your not getting it Chris, the shock you would buy for 50 bucks most likely has never been recharged or changed with oil either.

He's simply talking about a leaking shock.

Look at it this way, what sense does it make to do all kinds of engine mods when the suspension can't apply it to the ground in the proper manner because the shock is not functioning how it should?

What ever horsepower you gain in mods, really doesn't mean squat if it's wasted bouncing up and down or in the air at times.

I just find it odd that most want to look the other way and not ever service the shock.

I don't think changing the oil in a shock and getting it charged up is a couple 100, more like 125 or so, but I think my manual shows me how to change oil and all I would have to do is take the shock to have it recharged.

Tell ya what guys, I'll call a race tech suspensiopn guy I know and see just how much it is (I could be off with my estimate, it's just a approx. guess) and let you know then.

In the mean time why don't you check you manual and see if it shows how to change the shock oil, I know mine does but I didn't read thru it yet and see if any specialty tools are needed, I will though and post my findings.

I do realize for you Chris it really doesn't matter that much but you start motxing it (hope you go with me sometime?) that procedure could very well save you from a bad crash and that one time it would of paid for itself.

I'll give you a hand changoing the oil if the procedure is beyond you capabilities, that's if your interested at all. Heck, at the momment, I'm not sure if I can do it, will find out though.

[Dirtcrasher]

you know that cylinder that attaches to the rear shock and makes it stiffer or softer by turning a dial?
How do you fix it when the dial stops making a difference in the shock stiffness?


I personally can't feel much of a difference in my suspension when I change the settings. I do notice a big difference when I preload the spring though. I think stock shocks don't offer much adjustment in damping and thats why people buy 800$ ELKA shocks. Which by the way, I would LOVE to own someday....

[Huffa]

I personally can't feel much of a difference in my suspension when I change the settings. I do notice a big difference when I preload the spring though. I think stock shocks don't offer much adjustment in damping and thats why people buy 800$ ELKA shocks. Which by the way, I would LOVE to own someday....

Your shock is 20 years old DC, it may very well just need a oil change and need to be pressurized !

That's unfair to be judging the shock damping when it may be in poor condition reguarding gas/oil to begin with.

[edog]

Those 200X shocks don't have rebuild kits.The liquid 250R has rebuild kits.

I tried to restore one of my old 200X shocks.The seal on the shaft leaked.

I have been thinking of rebuilding my 250R one when it starts leaking.

[Huffa]

The cost is much cheaper then you think DC (cheaper then I said!) and Nightrider they can repair your clickers too, that is if parts are availble for these old shocks.

http://www.atvconnection.com/Departments/ATV_Racing/PEP-Shocks.cfm

http://www.shock-works.com/atv_shocks.htm

Buy a used shock for 50 and your 1/2 way there to the cost of servicing one, of course more if it needs parts.

[deathman53]

Huffa, has the right idea. Too many people are obsessed with the motor. My friend works at a honda dealer, people who buy 450r's, what is their first purchse??? Pipe, cam, piston, air intake, cdi, but they still ride with the same crappy tires and suspesion. I have beaten many on my 200x, stock motor, supertrapp pipe, 27mm carb, 83/84 250r front suspension, works rear shock, new bearings all around, extended axle and good tires. People don't realize, there is more to the bike than the motor, your suspension plays a huge part.

[edog]

Your shock is 20 years old DC, it may very well just need a oil change and need to be pressurized !

That's unfair to be judging the shock damping when it may be in poor condition reguarding gas/oil to begin with.

Sticking up for old tired shocks everywere......................
















It's shock man.:naughty: :lol:

[Huffa]

Those 200X shocks don't have rebuild kits.The liquid 250R has rebuild kits.

I tried to restore one of my old 200X shocks.The seal on the shaft leaked.

I have been thinking of rebuilding my 250R one when it starts leaking.

Rebuild kits from Honda ?

I would not wait till then, that could be years and the oil that comes from factory is not of high quality, can you imagine how black and beat it must be!

Do it up edog!, I'm doing mine for sure.

[Huffa]

Huffa, has the right idea. Too many people are obsessed with the motor. My friend works at a honda dealer, people who buy 450r's, what is their first purchse??? Pipe, cam, piston, air intake, cdi, but they still ride with the same crappy tires and suspesion. I have beaten many on my 200x, stock motor, supertrapp pipe, 27mm carb, 83/84 250r front suspension, works rear shock, new bearings all around, extended axle and good tires. People don't realize, there is more to the bike than the motor, your suspension plays a huge part.

That's for sure and it is the least talked about thing on this site.

Far better to dial the suspension in 1st then it is the motor. Lot's on here would be faster with a better suspension then motor mods anyway.

[edog]

Huffa, has the right idea. Too many people are obsessed with the motor. My friend works at a honda dealer, people who buy 450r's, what is their first purchse??? Pipe, cam, piston, air intake, cdi, but they still ride with the same crappy tires and suspesion. I have beaten many on my 200x, stock motor, supertrapp pipe, 27mm carb, 83/84 250r front suspension, works rear shock, new bearings all around, extended axle and good tires. People don't realize, there is more to the bike than the motor, your suspension plays a huge part.

Your only as fast as your suspension.You can put all the horsepower into the motor you want.What good is it going to do you when you can't put the power to the ground.

I recently bought new ITP Holeshots HD for my 250r.The old tires were spinning and not getting traction.I swear I have gained an extra 5 horse power just by putting the new tires on.I also messed with the damping on the shock and have noticed a great inprovement in the overall handiling of the machine.

[Huffa]

Sticking up for old tired shocks everywere......................















It's shock man.:naughty: :lol:

I noticed every time I make a post about suspension no one replies :lol: , post engine mods it's a whole different story :lol:

With how cheap it is (couple links above) maybe more will want to do so now?

[Huffa]

Well the shock dissasembly sure looks like a no brainer to me and here is something that anyone can do (from Honda shop manual), for the R's that is .......

Not sure what it is for 85/6 model..........Simply compress the shock (ends the way they are on machine) on a scale, if the force is less then 57lbs, gas leaked out and it needs a recharge.

If it's more then 57, KABLUIE !!!!! :D

[Dirtcrasher]

Your shock is 20 years old DC, it may very well just need a oil change and need to be pressurized !

That's unfair to be judging the shock damping when it may be in poor condition reguarding gas/oil to begin with.


I have several shocks that I have won off EBAY that have less than 50 hours on them and were obviously stored indoors and they don't get me going any faster through the woods or my MX track than I already go. I have had some blown shocks which of course gave me the riding conditions you suggested.

It would be great to service them but I think your getting a bit too deep into this. 20 year old technology is the problem, not an oil change. If the nitrogen or oil leaks then the shock performs like crap but I don't believe that changing my oil will make this huge advantage in suspension reaction.

The average ATC owner isn't on a track and facing a row of never ending whoops. Were cruising the trails, blazing paths and the stock shock seems to be good enough.

It's gotta be at least a 2 hour job unless you remove it yourself, most shops run 75$ an hour and up and then there is oil and a new seal and nitrogen. I can't imagine it costs less than a couple hundred bucks. I'll bet you could do it yourself for 25$ or less.

You guys figure out the rest and I'll supply the nitrogen!!

[Huffa]

I have several shocks that I have won off EBAY that have less than 50 hours on them and were obviously stored indoors and they don't get me going any faster through the woods or my MX track than I already go. I have had some blown shocks which of course gave me the riding conditions you suggested.

It would be great to service them but I think your getting a bit too deep into this. 20 year old technology is the problem, not an oil change. If the nitrogen or oil leaks then the shock performs like crap but I don't believe that changing my oil will make this huge advantage in suspension reaction.

I can't agree, a oil change can make a big difference if you use high tech stuff, not ATF in them and that's what I plan to do.

The oil should most likely be of a thicker grade because back then the tracks were not as tough and agreed with a lighter dampened shock, so in that reguard, you should not go by what the maual says, with using ATF.

Too deep, on a maintenence procedure that many can do them selves possibly and just get them recharged ?

40-50 hours is about the limit for shock oil especially if it's the stock shock oil, for me any way.

" unless you remove it yourself" ........... well of course most evryone would do that.

I gave you those two shock company links, did you even look at them?

[Huffa]

" The average ATC owner isn't on a track and facing a row of never ending whoops. Were cruising the trails, blazing paths and the stock shock seems to be good enough. "

......but yet to most, the engine isn't good enough and they are willing to hop that up?

I understand where your coming from though but the suspension plays a very important role in trail riding sometimes and it is just totally negleted with a large percentage of members on here.

I'll bet tons of riders didn't "make that hill" not because of the motor not having enough power, but rather they lost power to the ground (bounce, bounce, bounce) because of a crappy rear shock.

This is a most interesting subect to me and I respect your view point's for sure. Hope others will chime in! :beer

[Dirtcrasher]

So your telling us it's ok to change the recommended type of oil and or the viscosity because tracks are much more technical than they were back then??

If it's so important to have a well performing rear shock then how can you just put a heavier oil in it while retaining the stock valving within the shock?

I'm not saying there will be no benefit to servicing your rear shock, of course there will or I wouldn't bother with my front forks. I'm simply saying most people won't find a huge advantage in doing it.

[Huffa]

So your telling us it's ok to change the recommended type of oil and or the viscosity because tracks are much more technical than they were back then??

If it's so important to have a well performing rear shock then how can you just put a heavier oil in it while retaining the stock valving within the shock?

I'm not saying there will be no benefit to servicing your rear shock, of course there will or I wouldn't bother with my front forks. I'm simply saying most people won't find a huge advantage in doing it.

Your right in that most won't but then again if you have a R,Z or Tecate your a more serious and talented rider and will gain from it.

You can put a heavier oil in the forks too, to slow the motion down a bit, I have been doing it for years although in the R I just used ATF till I get accustomed to the front end, then I'll decide if it's whipping through the stroke too quick.

You can also raise and lower the oil level in forks, if you want them to get firmer quicker or firm up later in the stroke.

The heavier oil in shock will simply just slow the overall compression and rebound and then you can fine tune with the clickers, you can still uise stock valving, no problem.

Back then, there really was not specific shock oil, so you use special stuff, made for the rear shock, it could perform a lot better then it ever did!

[Dirtcrasher]

I always use at least 15wt Bel Ray in my front forks and sometimes use 1.250 long PVC spacers too. It definitely seems to help out the front end. They suggest ATF in the front but at least with forks if it doesn't perform well you can simply drain out the oil and try try again.

But for the rear, if I do ever change one I would probably stick with the OEM's recommendation. If you send out a shock to "Pro Action" or someone they want to know your weight and riding style. Then they change the internal shims or valving from your information. I had works shocks on my 94 CR250 and that bike had incredible suspension. It cost me about 700$ to have both ends serviced. But, there is so much more suspension travel in an MX bike that ya can't even compare them to a trike.

I looked in my service manual for my 350X and they rec ATF in both ends... I wonder what they suggest for an MX bike? and I wonder what advantage ATF has over a viscosity type oil such as 10wt??

[rally4x4racer]

[QUOTE=Huffa;541042] till I get accustomed to the front end, then I'll decide if it's whipping through the stroke too quick. QUOTE]

that is the same stage I am at with my rear shock on the 350X - still trying to get a feel for it before i decide how to change it. maybe rebuild - maybe new shock.

has anyone looked into what quads have mono shocks and which new quad mono's will interchange with our most popular trikes? I think this is some research that is worth the time.

[Dirtcrasher]

Apparently swapping shocks from model to model just isn't the right thing to do. That angle the shock is at and the distance from it's mounting point to the pivot point (swinger bolt) are all figured in by an engineer along with it's internal valving.

I think we get excited when we find a way to mount a newer model shock on our machines only to find it doesn't work well. But, it does work better than the blown shock we had!

Like the SX, I have mounted both a Blaster shock and a 200X on my 87 250SX and neither one of them worked well. There simply isn't enough travel in that rear end and it mounts so straight up and down and without a linkage that it just didn't work out.

I'm sure there are some swaps that do work well. Lots of guys are putting Banshee (I think) shocks on their Tri-Z and seem to be happy with the results.

[Huffa]

Those spacers DC, all your doing there is stiffing up the travel while it is sitting still, you are not changing the overall stiffness, just binding up the coils sooner then they should be.

Also you can't be possibly using all the travel because of that, the spring won't compress enough anymore to bottom out.

Try this if you want, 1st you need one fork boot off if you are running them.

Let the spacer in and put a zip tie on fork tube, now ride it and try to use all the travel on a good jump or anything you feel will most certainly use all the travel, now take note how far the zip tie is push up towards the top (near bottom triple clamp)..........now take the spacers out and do it again, I'm almost postive they would be up higer equal to the approx length of your spacers.

[Huffa]

Apparently swapping shocks from model to model just isn't the right thing to do. That angle the shock is at and the distance from it's mounting point to the pivot point (swinger bolt) are all figured in by an engineer along with it's internal valving.

I think we get excited when we find a way to mount a newer model shock on our machines only to find it doesn't work well. But, it does work better than the blown shock we had!

Like the SX, I have mounted both a Blaster shock and a 200X on my 87 250SX and neither one of them worked well. There simply isn't enough travel in that rear end and it mounts so straight up and down and without a linkage that it just didn't work out.

I'm sure there are some swaps that do work well. Lots of guys are putting Banshee (I think) shocks on their Tri-Z and seem to be happy with the results.



Yea your right, not only does the shock differ but the pro link leverage is designed with that shock in mind.

be a whole different ball game if the shock was mounted right to the swinarm with out the leaverage arm.

[Huffa]

I wonder how many are running their shock like this ?

The bottom out "cone" is as hard as a ROCK, just replacement of that alone will make it bottom out so much more gradual and plusher and not kick up the rear end near as much.

Very hard to see they are shot until you feel them unless they are like mine. Some may not even have them on any more ?!

..........and now a days they have much better bottom out cones that are made of better material.

.......and the gas pressure test I mentioned, I got less then 20lbs of pressure, calls for 57.

Too bad I don't know the machine real well so I could report my before and after findings but maybe someone else will if they take all this advice ?

[250rAL]

My rear shock has been rebuilt twice during the time I have owned it. Last time, everything but the body was replaced. It's called maintenance people! If you're still running the same piston in your motor that you were 20+ years ago than I guess you don't need very good suspension action.

[Huffa]

My rear shock has been rebuilt twice during the time I have owned it. Last time, everything but the body was replaced. It's called maintenance people! If you're still running the same piston in your motor that you were 20+ years ago than I guess you don't need very good suspension action.

Yea, because it is probably about to sieze :lol:

Congradulations on being one of the few that is a believer in shock maintenence like I am. :beer

So in other words all the parts are still available? How much was that, to replace all the guts, oil change and nitro charge ?

You do it and if not have a link to company that did ?

You forgot that on your list !

[SWIGIN]

i do my own shock rebuilds, oil changes, and charges and let me tell you.....its so easy to do if you can get your hands on a nitrogen bottle and gauges.

every one with a shock with oil even a few years old should change it....hell i like trying different weight oils in mine.

as a bigger rider and i ride hard core i like 15wt to 20wt in my shocks....most stock shocks only have around a 5-8wt. but emagine that 20 years old 5-8wt now....nasty

[Dirtcrasher]

i do my own shock rebuilds, oil changes, and charges and let me tell you.....its so easy to do if you can get your hands on a nitrogen bottle and gauges.

every one with a shock with oil even a few years old should change it....hell i like trying different weight oils in mine.

as a bigger rider and i ride hard core i like 15wt to 20wt in my shocks....most stock shocks only have around a 5-8wt. but emagine that 20 years old 5-8wt now....nasty


Hey bud, so just regular Bel-Ray fork oil is fine foir the rear shock? I have nitrogen and refrigeration gauges but I think I may need an adapter to go from schrader valve to tire stem size.... I think HVAC compressor stubs are a bit larger OD than the shocks oil res stub....

Huffa - You have me on a mission now :lol: I'll do my spare 350X shock and post some pics of the rebuild. I just want to figure out the right air fitting first :) then I'll tear into it. I'll give a "ride report" also :beer

Hmmm - what about the shaft seal? Honda OEM parts doesn't give a breakdown of the shock shaft seal :wondering I guess I'll have to call a suspension place or find out where my dealer gets it. As long as the shaft is straight and smooth, I imagine it's just an oil change and shaft seal change - unless the bladder needs changing.

[SWIGIN]

i use and like bel-ray fork/shock oil and yes fork and shock oil is the same

just keep the nitrogen between 160-200 psi and youll be fine

one more thing ...... get all the air bubbles out when you put it back together

the seal is normaly sold as a seal head.....its the hole thing with the seal in it....kinda hard to explain

[Huffa]

i do my own shock rebuilds, oil changes, and charges and let me tell you.....its so easy to do if you can get your hands on a nitrogen bottle and gauges.

every one with a shock with oil even a few years old should change it....hell i like trying different weight oils in mine.

as a bigger rider and i ride hard core i like 15wt to 20wt in my shocks....most stock shocks only have around a 5-8wt. but emagine that 20 years old 5-8wt now....nasty

Swigin, so glad you came on to help me convince dirt crasher it's a good maintenince service to do, we finally have it drilled into him now :lol:

I'm from Slatington Pa, 70 miles N of Phily and if your not too far away, I'd enjoy watching/helping you do my shock if you would want to, no problem if your not interested though, just thought I'd ask. I'd pay you also.

I thought from race tech they had a shock and fork oil but maybe not and they don't list ATV's on there site, found that a little odd ?

So they make 15 and 20 weight yet, still make 30 too or is that long gone ?

[Huffa]

Hey bud, so just regular Bel-Ray fork oil is fine foir the rear shock? I have nitrogen and refrigeration gauges but I think I may need an adapter to go from schrader valve to tire stem size.... I think HVAC compressor stubs are a bit larger OD than the shocks oil res stub....

Huffa - You have me on a mission now :lol: I'll do my spare 350X shock and post some pics of the rebuild. I just want to figure out the right air fitting first :) then I'll tear into it. I'll give a "ride report" also :beer

Hmmm - what about the shaft seal? Honda OEM parts doesn't give a breakdown of the shock shaft seal :wondering I guess I'll have to call a suspension place or find out where my dealer gets it. As long as the shaft is straight and smooth, I imagine it's just an oil change and shaft seal change - unless the bladder needs changing.


Great ! I'll bet others will follow through with it too, once they see that it isn't too complicated and too costly.

The shock seal, maybe find the closest palce near by that specializes in ATV/motocross suspension rebuilds and see if they can match it up.

I have 2-3 around me, I'll check too but will need to take the shock apart 1st.

Take a pic of the dirty, contaminated 20 year old oil when you dump it out, ya hear !

How is your bottom out bumper, any good yet ?

Once apart, you can really detail that baby to perfection then! :beer

[rally4x4racer]

a lot of springs are probably trashed from people riding around on un-serviced shocks for so long.

I don't think people overlook the suspension huffa, I think they prioritize. Honestly, if you have a tired engine and tired shock but only have 150$ what are you going to do? Economics theorizes that time and money are scarce, and our decisions will favor those investments with greater benefits.

It is obvious that all parts of the machine operate in a "system" and operate on "synergies". In fact, if someone had a decent mechanic, they would be well informed.

I am interested in just how neglected most riders suspensions are - can you put a poll on the starting thread? I don't see how someone could ride around on a junk shock

[Huffa]

a lot of springs are probably trashed from people riding around on un-serviced shocks for so long.

I don't think people overlook the suspension huffa, I think they prioritize. Honestly, if you have a tired engine and tired shock but only have 150$ what are you going to do? Economics theorizes that time and money are scarce, and our decisions will favor those investments with greater benefits.

It is obvious that all parts of the machine operate in a "system" and operate on "synergies". In fact, if someone had a decent mechanic, they would be well informed.

I am interested in just how neglected most riders suspensions are - can you put a poll on the starting thread? I don't see how someone could ride around on a junk shock



You have a valid point there but I have been on here for quite sometime and really, that is the least talked about subject on here, it's always engines,engines,engines. The hop up on engines for me anyway would be once I'm done with the suspension not the other way around.

I figure most that have the R, Z and Tecate do have the money to service the shock, especially once we start talking about the subject more and the task will seem easier then.

Directing this to everyone ..........With these hi tech quads out now, we (us track guys) need every bit of help we can get from the suspension, every little bit of traction helps and may just be enough of a help, to beat that quad guy!

Never did a poll, don't even know how, I'll check it out, thanks !

:wondering Where is the poll option, I can't find it ?

[NINJA]

I love this thread, well said Huffa. Power is only as useful as the amount you can transfer to the ground. That's why they have drag race specific shocks for street/strip cars also. Why waste money and buy more wore out sh*t off ebay? Engines get the most wear, guess what other components are second in line? Shocks perhaps? Also, don't forget, when you test those springs on a pressure scale, they're usually sagged out and not in spec. Don't overlook springs.

[SWIGIN]

Swigin, so glad you came on to help me convince dirt crasher it's a good maintenince service to do, we finally have it drilled into him now :lol:

I'm from Slatington Pa, 70 miles N of Phily and if your not too far away, I'd enjoy watching/helping you do my shock if you would want to, no problem if your not interested though, just thought I'd ask. I'd pay you also.

I thought from race tech they had a shock and fork oil but maybe not and they don't list ATV's on there site, found that a little odd ?

So they make 15 and 20 weight yet, still make 30 too or is that long gone ?h


PM sent Huffa

[Huffa]

I love this thread, well said Huffa. Power is only as useful as the amount you can transfer to the ground. That's why they have drag race specific shocks for street/strip cars also. Why waste money and buy more wore out sh*t off ebay? Engines get the most wear, guess what other components are second in line? Shocks perhaps? Also, don't forget, when you test those springs on a pressure scale, they're usually sagged out and not in spec. Don't overlook springs.

YES, the springs. I'm sure the weight range Honda figured for the R was around a 180lb guy, give or take 20 at the most.

I can tell the guy that had mine never fooled with the preload, he was for sure like a 220lb guy or so and the preload collar was all the way out to end of threads .

Many think the collar stiffens up the suspension, it does not, all that does is set the ride height. You can't make a spring stiffer then it already is.

Spacers in the front forks is a not good either, you should go to heavier springs if you feel the need to.

[Old 179]

Congradulations on being one of the few that is a believer in shock maintenence like I am. :beer


I'm part of that few! $100-125 around here. Replaced the rubber cone with a CR one on my 86R

[Huffa]

I'm part of that few! $100-125 around here. Replaced the rubber cone with a CR one on my 86R

That's great! :beer :beer

Now there are 4-5 of us :lol:

Your bumper slid right on abd is basically the same diameter hole ?

Already I'm learning the hot tips on them!

Price for them is cheap .........86 CR ......... RUBBER, BUMPER
52427-KA3-731 001 $7.17

[Old 179]

That's great! :beer :beer



Your bumper slid right on abd is basically the same diameter hole ?



Yes, the yoke(?) was unscrewed from the shaft and the bumper was slide in place.
old179

[Rustytinhorn]

YES, the springs. I'm sure the weight range Honda figured for the R was around a 180lb guy, give or take 20 at the most.

I can tell the guy that had mine never fooled with the preload, he was for sure like a 220lb guy or so and the preload collar was all the way out to end of threads .

Many think the collar stiffens up the suspension, it does not, all that does is set the ride height. You can't make a spring stiffer then it already is.

Spacers in the front forks is a not good either, you should go to heavier springs if you feel the need to.



I can tell you are pretty stoked on this subject. However, I will add my thoughts.

First off, adjusting the collar that controls the spring does change the preload. This is why the ride height of the bike is effected as one sets the preload to different levels. The bike is putting weight on the spring, and when the preload is set softer, it requires less weight to compress the spring because the spring is not already compressed by the preload, so it has more play, and the bike will sag. On the other hand, you set the preload hard, becuase the spring is already partly compressed, it is exerting more pressure on the upper and lower parts of the shock causing the bike stance to sit higher. You can make a spring stiffer by adjusting the winding of the coils.

Heres an example:
For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Say there is a 150 lb person stands on a spring. If the spring is normally 10" long, and the 150lb person compresses the spring 3", then you know that the spring is exerting 150lbs of equal, opposite force when compressed 3".
Now say a 200lb man steps on the spring, and the spring compresses 5". Then you know the spring is exerting 200lbs of equal, opposite pressure when compressed 5 inches. Now hand the man a 25lb bag of sugar, the spring will have to compress even more to exert the same pressure back.
Now say while the 200lb man was standing on the spring without the sugar, we took a couple peices of rope and tied the spring down so when the man stepped off it still stayed compressed 5". Now put the 150lb person back on the spring. The spring is exerting a pressure of 200lbs, while the person on top only weighs 150lbs. The spring will not sag becuase it is exerting more pressure. Then hand the 150lb person the 25lb sack of sugar. The 150lb person now weighs 175lbs, but the spring will still not compress because he hasnt reached the preload of 200lbs. Hence, the more the preload is, the more weight is required to compress the spring, making ones suspension stiffer.

That is how a pogo-stick works. It has litte or no preload. To get into the science of it, when Jumping down on the pogo stick you have a lot of kinetic energy. As you compress the spring more and it becomes stiffer, you lose that kinetic energy and it is transfered into potential energy which is stored in the spring. Then when potential energy becomes greater than the kinetic energy, it is released and transformed back into kinetic energy, thus pushing the person on the pogo stick back up, and giving its bounce. Energy cannot be created or destroyed. However, energy is lost in the transfer from kinetic to potential and back to kinetic energy through heat, friction, sound, etc...

For example, when a spring is stretched to the left, it exerts a force to the right so as to return to its original, un-stretched position. Or, suppose that a weight is lifted straight up. The force of gravity will try to bring it back down to its original position. The initial steps of stretching the spring and lifting the weight both require energy to perform. The principle of conservation of energy states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so this energy does not disappear. Instead it is stored as potential energy. If the spring is released or the weight is dropped, this stored energy will reappear as kinetic energy as the restoring force -- elasticity in the case of the spring and gravity in the case of the weight -- accelerates the object back towards its original position.


As far as the fork spacers go, I think he meant that his front end was sagging, and he wanted to put spacers in to make his front sit taller.
Adding spacers does and doens't make one loose travel. It depends on how you look at it.

Say your play is 10", and when the bike sags it compresses the spring 2", so you sit at 8" of play. That means you have 8" down you can go, and 2" up you can go. If you put a 2" spacer in to make up for your sag, it will raise your front end up 2". You will now loose the 2" of "up" travel you had, but you will still maintain the same 8" of "down" travel you always had. I dont think it will make you lose any travel, becuase the 2" the front end has to sag and compress to make the spring exert the proper force to create any type of damping or rebound effect is not effective untill you are only have 8" of play left anyway. If your forks are fully extended without the spacers, they have to drop 2" before the spring is able to start reacting anyway. So even if you take out that 2" of dead space it still leaves you with 8" of travel from normal riding height stance.
Its okay to have no sag while not sitting on it, but once a rider gets on, I would want the extra inch or two of "up" play to allow my forks to extend into the potholes, rather than my whole front end drop down.
BTW-I think it is normall for the front to sag a little. Mine does, and so does everyone elses I know. It helps to keep the front down when climbing hills.


Edit-One more thing. As far as rebuilding a shock goes...To actually "rebuild" or "remanufacture" a shock there have been a couple guys here that have sent there shocks into Works and had them completely gone through with new parts and whatnot. I think they paid around $200 to remanufacture it. However, to perform maintenance and tune-up on your shock is relatively cheap, as there is not really anything more that one can do except change the fluid and recharge the shock with nitrogen. Changing the fluid is not hard, and to get it recharged with nitrogen here is only $15, if the shock is removed from the bike.
There are few test (other than pumping you bike up and down) you can do to your spring and shock to see if they are still within service limits or need recharging or replacing.

Also, there is a correct preload setting that your shock is supposed to be at depending on the riders weight.

[SWIGIN]

Edit-One more thing. As far as rebuilding a shock goes...To actually "rebuild" or "remanufacture" a shock there have been a couple guys here that have sent there shocks into Works and had them completely gone through with new parts and whatnot. I think they paid around $200 to remanufacture it. However, to perform maintenance and tune-up on your shock is relatively cheap, as there is not really anything more that one can do except change the fluid and recharge the shock with nitrogen. Changing the fluid is not hard, and to get it recharged with nitrogen here is only $15, if the shock is removed from the bike.
There are few test (other than pumping you bike up and down) you can do to your spring and shock to see if they are still within service limits or need recharging or replacing.

im not sure you know what is inside a shock to be ''rebuilt''

if its so cheap to have the oil and gas changed witch normaly includes a seal head .....well theres only 1 more part to a shock that can ware out, the bushing inside that rides on the inside of the body.

thats why i think shops are riping people off since there is nothing to a rebuild

the only time it gets tricky is if you are changing the valving.

[brapp]

one fo the best guys to have shocks done is all carr at reactive suspension its mostly dirtbikes but he does quads also a basic oil change and rechargs is heap liek 50 bux or so and the turn around is pretty quick. and he has been around for years and also a very good friend of mine who i woudl trust with my life!
his info is al carr at reactive suspension 610-367-1700

[Huffa]

one fo the best guys to have shocks done is all carr at reactive suspension its mostly dirtbikes but he does quads also a basic oil change and rechargs is heap liek 50 bux or so and the turn around is pretty quick. and he has been around for years and also a very good friend of mine who i woudl trust with my life!
his info is al carr at reactive suspension 610-367-1700

I know Al too, since like 74 or so. My bro in law bought his reative van and they sell a lot of stuff at the motoX races on occassion.

Yea, Al's a great guy. Skinny dude, don't think he gain a pound since 74 :lol:

[Rustytinhorn]

im not sure you know what is inside a shock to be ''rebuilt''

if its so cheap to have the oil and gas changed witch normaly includes a seal head .....well theres only 1 more part to a shock that can ware out, the bushing inside that rides on the inside of the body.

thats why i think shops are riping people off since there is nothing to a rebuild

the only time it gets tricky is if you are changing the valving.

I'm sorry, I should have stated they had their shocks rebuilt and revalved.
And as far as the high price goes, you know as well as I do a shop will charge a couple hours labor to do it.

[Huffa]

Swigin & Rusty, some how I missed your posts at 1st, it's late, so i'll study them tomorrow.

I started reading yours Rusty and am 1/2 a wake, that I wlii have to read a few times till it makes sense to me ! :lol:

Good info though guys ............tomorrow, see ya.

[Rustytinhorn]

Swigin & Rusty, some how I missed your posts at 1st, it's late, so i'll study them tomorrow.

I started reading yours Rusty and am 1/2 a wake, that I wlii have to read a few times till it makes sense to me ! :lol:

Good info though guys ............tomorrow, see ya.

Lol. I just go to make a short comment and all my replys end up turning into books.:wondering Then I have to re-read them 2 or 3 times to understand them myslef.:lol: At least the proffessors at college like it when I do that.
Anyway, I'm still tryin to figure the technicals of the whole preload and fork spacer thing, and am open to other opinions and theories. See, becuase I totally disregarded the fact that the oil level in the front forks would be effected by the change in suspension travel. Adding a spacer would technically give you less travel. However, the fork spring will still be compressed the same amount either way. But adding a spacer would make the height of the oil lower in the tube earlier during the compression sequence. So since you actually did loose 2 inches of travel, does that mean you need to compensate by adding 2" of fork oill to achieve the same effect as not running spacers? It is hard to explain when not talking face-to-face. So I guess adding a spacer would actually make your front end a little softer and your rebound a little quicker maybe? If the length of your spacer is equal to or less than the measurement of your sag, there will be no additional preload applied by the spacer. But if your spacer length exceeds that of your sag (such as a 3" spacer when the bike only sags 2"), then a preload will be applied to the fork springs, thus being the same as already being 1" into your compression sequence. So the spring will already be exerting more force shorter into the compression sequence, while the oil will still have to wait until the the front end drops X inches to come into play as it did before. It would be the same as running less oil. You know what, I dont know.... I will have to sleep and read-up on it a little more to get to the science of it. Now were gettin into the nitty gritty of it.

Andrew

Edit-Gadfreeze...I havent taken the air pressure of the fork tubes into accocunt either...

[Huffa]

Lol. I just go to make a short comment and all my replys end up turning into books.:wondering Then I have to re-read them 2 or 3 times to understand them myslef.:lol: At least the proffessors at college like it when I do that.
Anyway, I'm still tryin to figure the technicals of the whole preload and fork spacer thing, and am open to other opinions and theories. See, becuase I totally disregarded the fact that the oil level in the front forks would be effected by the change in suspension travel. Adding a spacer would technically give you less travel. However, the fork spring will still be compressed the same amount either way. But adding a spacer would make the height of the oil lower in the tube earlier during the compression sequence. So since you actually did loose 2 inches of travel, does that mean you need to compensate by adding 2" of fork oill to achieve the same effect as not running spacers? It is hard to explain when not talking face-to-face. So I guess adding a spacer would actually make your front end a little softer and your rebound a little quicker maybe? If the length of your spacer is equal to or less than the measurement of your sag, there will be no additional preload applied by the spacer. But if your spacer length exceeds that of your sag (such as a 3" spacer when the bike only sags 2"), then a preload will be applied to the fork springs, thus being the same as already being 1" into your compression sequence. So the spring will already be exerting more force shorter into the compression sequence, while the oil will still have to wait until the the front end drops X inches to come into play as it did before. It would be the same as running less oil. You know what, I dont know.... I will have to sleep and read-up on it a little more to get to the science of it. Now were gettin into the nitty gritty of it.

Andrew

Edit-Gadfreeze...I havent taken the air pressure of the fork tubes into accocunt either...



What ? Just got up and now I have to read this too, make sense out of it :lol:

Got to go to work, will comment later on today but seriously, I like when it gets technical like this and it's a FRESH subject, ya know.

This place is nuts with what they are asking for shock and service if you want on it, guess they are looking for suckers ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1983-84-ATC250R-OEM-shock-250-R-suspension-P-3019_W0QQitemZ250113731363QQihZ015QQcategoryZ43974 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

[jason 32]

this is true- the shock is ignored a lot- because there were no replaceabvle seal kits-
i got mine from racetech- its a pain but its better to rebuild than buy aother junk one-
there are a lot of shops that can do it for 80-150

[Huffa]

Yoe Rusty, if your interested in the real technicals of suspension, read this, may answer some of your ?'s.

One thing I finally found that I'm trying to stress is......... " Preload makes the bike sit higher, or lower. It does not make the spring stiffer.

So if someone tells you that you should reduce your preload to make the bike feel less harsh, they probably don’t have a clue."


http://www.promecha.com.au/sag_and_preload.htm

Here is the whole chassie and suspension link which the above link is under too

http://www.promecha.com.au/site_map.htm

Some of the info in there may help you understand also why you should not just slap another set of forks on a trike just because they are stiffer.