Are Water-cooler 2-strokers the king of MX or can others keep up to?

[thefox]

I guess this is a question for those that have formally raced MX on trikes, is it just the water-cooled trikes that can run at the front of the pack or can others (air R’s and 350X’s) still be competitive?

I ask because I am going to be back in W. PA next year for college (5th and final year) but since I will not be eligible for running I will have some free time and I have been debating selling the trikes I have now and getting something that I can take to race with the Ohio crew. I have always been a 4-stroke guy but I am willing to switch over to 2-strokes if needed. So would a 350x be competitive? I was also thinking of an air -cooled R, I have heard those have more low end then the water-coolers so maybe that would fit me better since I am used to 4-strokes (I have never ridden a water-cooled 2-stroke). I also like that I should be able to find a air-cooler for less then the water-cooled trikes and I am on a fixed budget. If it matters I am 6'2" and 175 lbs.

[TimSr]

This really depends on the track. The motors of either the air cooled or the 350x are more than adequate, and can even be an advantage in smaller tight tracks such as the indoors but the suspension of the liquid models are superior in the tracks with lots of air, and doubles such as the Faircross Series. For Smith Road Raceway, either would be competitive. At Sunset Rambers the liquid models have a good edge because of supension. At 6'2" you migh find the early air cooled models a little cramped. As for all the trail riding OTC does, with your size and favor of 4 strokes, youll be very happy on a 350X. If you were looking at something strictly being used for MX, a liquid 250R is probably the best suited over all.

[PWK39]

Hey,what's up

If your looking to mx I would say suspension is the most important.Hard to beat the watercooled bikes for that reason.Power wise I bet a air r or 350x would be pretty good.I have never done mx on a trike so maybe some other guys could tell you more.If it were me I wouldn't care what I was ridiig as long as I got some track time under my belt and had some fun!;)

[atc250rer]

my air cooled does just great in the woods , but if you start going over many mx courses with bumps and whoops its gets kinda hairy.. the H2O trikes have a lot better suspension.. i think... and i have both.

[thefox]

Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming.:beer

How big of a step up is the suspension from the 82 250R to the 83 250R?

[Bryan Raffa]

The 350x's can keep up But man they land like Brick's! Next time your up this way I'll let ya ride my z.. Im 6'3" 190 and there's more room for me on the z than the R's. Ive allways felt cramped on R's and really cramped on the older air cooled R's, But there fun..

[Derrick Adams]

Any of the bikes you mentioned will work fine. I would definately look for a liquid cooled R though. It seems to me that the liquid R's are cheaper and easier to find than a solid 350X. I would stay away from the Air-Cooled R for the simple fact of the lacking suspension and overall size.

[Derrick Adams]

Bryan's right about the Z fitting us tall people well. The downfalls of the Z are many, but if you overcome them, it is definately a solid performer. Cheap too!

[firefirefire90]

Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming.:beer

How big of a step up is the suspension from the 82 250R to the 83 250R?


The biggest difference was going from a Single link to a dual(pro) link. BIG difference! The front travel was changed..hell..the whole ergonomics of the trike was changed. In 1984, they even added a higher compression piston. I would not think that the 81/82 trike could keep up with any of the later year 250R's. They are just that much un-developed.

The 83/84 and the 85/86 250R's are like brothers....while the 81/82 is the eldest son who's dad fed him to much. :lol:

About the height issue. I am 6'4 220ish...and I fit on the aircooled R very nicely. I would just invest in some taller handlebars.

[350Xhilaration]

The 350x's can keep up But man they land like Brick's!

Without any suspension mods, that is definitely true.

A 350X has plenty of usable power, but like Tim said, it will depend on the track. With stock suspension, it won't matter if you have a powroll engine, you will get 0wn3d by just about every 250R out there (assuming the rider is decent).

Woods riding, a 350X is perfect. But you asked about MX.

I'd recommend getting a liquid cooled R due to the high availability of parts and out of the box better suspension and they have plenty of power stock.

[SWIGIN]

Without any suspension mods, that is definitely true.

A 350X has plenty of usable power, but like Tim said, it will depend on the track. With stock suspension, it won't matter if you have a powroll engine, you will get 0wn3d by just about every 250R out there (assuming the rider is decent).

Woods riding, a 350X is perfect. But you asked about MX.

I'd recommend getting a liquid cooled R due to the high availability of parts and out of the box better suspension and they have plenty of power stock.


mine lands soft ...lol

[thefox]

When you say the air-cooled R's lack suspension does that just mean they land hard and are not comfortable to ride because of it or will the lack of suspension actually slow down the lap times because they get uncontrollable?

I am not saying I am a great rider but I don't want to be at a huge disadvantage before the race even starts.

[Billy Golightly]

edog for the love of God please quit post whoring. Your making me reminiscent of the old days when you first joined the forum and make 10 replies to every thread. Just chill a little bit with the Quick reply button.

[thefox]

edog for the love of God please quit post whoring. Your making my reminiscent of the old days when you first joined the forum and make 10 replied to every thread. Just chill a little bit with the Quick reply button.

lol I was thinking the same thing. At least he has something other then the DX now, if this was back then he would be saying I should buy a DX and race it because they are the best, after that it was the 200x that is the best machine ever made; now it is the 250R. Ohh eDog:D :p

[Derrick Adams]

Lack of good suspension causes all sorts of issues on the track. Here's what happens. You might take a decent tabletop on an air cooled R ok (IF you clear it) most times you won't. So when you land the first thing that happens is that the suspension bottoms out or the frame bottoms out. That gives you a large Jolt in the feet and hands. Then the tires compress and the handlebars start to sway back and forth, because the suspension is already compressed and it cant absorb the bumps and ruts. Then the suspension finally decompresses and over extends, which lightens the front tire (which is already jockeying back and forth) taking away your ability to steer. THEN the rear suspension lifts the back of the bike up and shifts all your weight to the front causing you to over steer.

This is just one scenario and it's over dramatic, but true. That all happens in a split second and while you don't always wreck from it, it sure takes alot of strength from you to keep it corrected. Now multiply that time say 30. That's about how many times you will hit obsticals in 3 to 4 laps. You can see how lacking suspension can greatly slow down your lap times.

Now imagine that same suspension in a whoops section!

In all honestly the reason the 85-86 R's are so much better on the track is majorly better suspension. (Even it isn't great by todays standards) I don't consider the 350X any better than the air cooled R's. The only thing better about the 350X is that it makes enought torque to make up for the lack of suspension.

Here's an example. Last season I ran my 350X in trail trim in the small bore quad class. I absolutely got killed in the jumps, but the trike made tons of power to reel in people in the straights. In all I finished mid pack. Had I been on my R, it would have been top 3 for sure.

[chris200x]

edog for the love of God please quit post whoring. Your making my reminiscent of the old days when you first joined the forum and make 10 replied to every thread. Just chill a little bit with the Quick reply button.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :w00t:

I'm a bit curious about the comment about the triz and their disadvantages? I know about the footpeg issues but can someone clarify? :confused:

[Dammit!]

I'm a bit curious about the comment about the triz and their disadvantages? I know about the footpeg issues but can someone clarify? :confused:


Stock, the Z (particularly the 85 model) has a few disadvantages. The suspension being a major one and they don't have as much horsepower stock either. The 85's had 35mm forks which will flex a good amount. There's some intangible things that are hard to put into words though. The R seems to "stick" to the ground better for lack of a better way of describing it. The suspension just allows it to track the terrain better. The Z is a little loosey goosey even on a straight. The ergonomics that make the Z so comfortable to ride don't lend themselves extremely well to aggressive riding (that's purely an opinion of course).

Most of it is correctable. I don't think stock really means much 20 years later anyway. Throw an 86 Z or 250R front end on there, get a good rear shock, bigger carb, some port work and the Z can compete with anything. :w00t:

[Kintore]

For me personally,

As many of you know, I was a die hard yamaha fan. Yamaha this, yami that.
Until I put some serious seat time in on my 86 R.
Stock R vs my piped/mild ported Z they were dead even. And the R is dead stock.

Most of reason I switched over, was the honda was a better trike for me IMO.
The yamaha had vibration issues, lack of aftermarket support, BENT foot pegs (which have caused some injuries when snapping off) And ive had really bad luck with my clutch/water pump/ and side case snapping.

Ive found the R to be, how shall I put this. More geared towards the aggressive rider. It handles better, suspension is better just is more nimble and controllable.

Dont get my wrong, I loved my Z. But I find the Z is more geared towards the average/cruiser rider. And the R is more MX/agressive.

[chris200x]

Thanks for the info guys. and sorry for whorin the fox. I think The z will fit me good as I am a big guy and not real aggresive.

[TimSr]

Suspension is an issue with whoops, and jumps. The better your suspension, the faster you can get through them. Whoops require plenty of travel, and suspension soft enough to eat them up. The general jump stategy is to slow down as little as possible when doing it. You want to just bottom out when you land, but not hard enough to cause control isses, or pain issues. Doubling jumps saves a huge amount of time if you have the suspension to handle it. The main difference between the liquid and air cooled is the rear shock linkage setup as opposed to the inferior straight shock. This same inferior straight shock setup keeps the Blaster and 300EX from being serious contenders in open quad classes.

As for the disadvantages of the TriZ, the only one I can state is a simply wheelbase/rake/center of gravity/weight distribution issue. Its simply the trike's geometry that makes it corner lousey compeered to the R. The same thing that makes them comfortable to big riders is a serious disadvantage to its cornering ability on an MX track. As for any motor disadvantage, I laugh. Nobody ever left me or passed me on a straightaway! The lack of counter balancer does make them vibrate a lot more than the Honda, and the rider more subject to fatigue. The foot peg issue is easily addressed with a good welder. There are a lot more aftemarket race goodies for the R from the TRX250R, including a lot more choices for a high end rear shock. 3leggeddog's rear Elka shock probably cost more than my whole TriZ is worth! Mayeb he needs it to beat me. As for stock suspension, in my opinion, the R has no real advantages over the Z. Hondas tend to be suspended for heavier riders from the factory which seems to lead people to this conclusion, but heavier suspension is only helpful to a heavier rider. I dont buy the idea that 250R suspension is better at all. Others will disagree. Either should be setup for the rider's weight and type of riding, and when thst done, you wont see much difference.

I suggested the R because of its superior cornering ability and the wide array of aftermarket parts, and readily available replacement parts but Im living proof that a TriZ can be a formidable contender with a good rider, and I keep my trike mostly stock to prove a point. If you have a 250R, a TriZ, a Tecate, or a 350X, and they are running right, its mostly about the guy on the seat, and if you have to buy the best of everything, spend hundreds on engine work, and aftermarket performance goodies to beat a little old fat guy on a stock TriZ, then you have already lost! Buy what fits you, and learn to ride it well, and you will be competitive.

[slothminx]

I think a 2nd gen Aircooled R could easily be made competitive. But the first gen would need SO much, its like riding on a space hopper over even the smallest whoops. A completely different machine. Its like a 110 on speed haha

[3leggeddog]

Suspension is an issue with whoops, and jumps. The better your suspension, the faster you can get through them. Whoops require plenty of travel, and suspension soft enough to eat them up. The general jump stategy is to slow down as little as possible when doing it. You want to just bottom out when you land, but not hard enough to cause control isses, or pain issues. Doubling jumps saves a huge amount of time if you have the suspension to handle it. The main difference between the liquid and air cooled is the rear shock linkage setup as opposed to the inferior straight shock. This same inferior straight shock setup keeps the Blaster and 300EX from being serious contenders in open quad classes.

As for the disadvantages of the TriZ, the only one I can state is a simply wheelbase/rake/center of gravity/weight distribution issue. Its simply the trike's geometry that makes it corner lousey compeered to the R. The same thing that makes them comfortable to big riders is a serious disadvantage to its cornering ability on an MX track. As for any motor disadvantage, I laugh. Nobody ever left me or passed me on a straightaway! The lack of counter balancer does make them vibrate a lot more than the Honda, and the rider more subject to fatigue. The foot peg issue is easily addressed with a good welder. There are a lot more aftemarket race goodies for the R from the TRX250R, including a lot more choices for a high end rear shock. 3leggeddog's rear Elka shock probably cost more than my whole TriZ is worth! Mayeb he needs it to beat me. As for stock suspension, in my opinion, the R has no real advantages over the Z. Hondas tend to be suspended for heavier riders from the factory which seems to lead people to this conclusion, but heavier suspension is only helpful to a heavier rider. I dont buy the idea that 250R suspension is better at all. Others will disagree. Either should be setup for the rider's weight and type of riding, and when thst done, you wont see much difference.

I suggested the R because of its superior cornering ability and the wide array of aftermarket parts, and readily available replacement parts but Im living proof that a TriZ can be a formidable contender with a good rider, and I keep my trike mostly stock to prove a point. If you have a 250R, a TriZ, a Tecate, or a 350X, and they are running right, its mostly about the guy on the seat, and if you have to buy the best of everything, spend hundreds on engine work, and aftermarket performance goodies to beat a little old fat guy on a stock TriZ, then you have already lost! Buy what fits you, and learn to ride it well, and you will be competitive.


hmm,not real sure how to feel about that tim.not sure why i got thrown under the bus?????are you implying i have a lack of talent,and just a good bike?my elka set me back a little bit,but a stock shock will not handle what i do.i think if you remember back to smith road this yeari was on a stock 350x,with 20 inch trail wolfs,and still finished 2nd.ahead of yourself,garageboy on a tecate,and derrick on casper.that says alot for the point you made about any bike being capable with the right rider.but a proper set up is crucial if you expect,or demand to run up front.i give you mad props tim.you deffinitly keep it real.i always see you as a threat,but with a few bike mods,i think you could make things easier for yourself,aswell as see better finishes.

does someone need to go out and spend 4-5 gend on a trike to be compnetitive?NO!!!do you need to do the little things to set your bike up,yes.tire selection,gearing,a good running motor,and well maintenced stock suspension will do the average rider well.as far as overall bike selection,the 250r is the king of mx,imo ofcourse.

[TimSr]

Hey Brandon, just some friendly ribbing on the shock! You consistantly beat me because you are a better rider, and not because of your bike. If we were equal riders, your equipment would give you the edge, but I am not your equal. You bring up one very important point Id like to expand on though concerning your shock. You got a high performnce shock only AFTER you learned to ride well enough to exceed your existing one's capabilities. Thats how it should be done. Too many riders think they need to buy the expensive trick stuff first, and learn to ride later. Its pointless to purchase mods until you are running what youve got to its full potential.

[3leggeddog]

i kinda felt your friendly attitude,but wasn't sure.glad to clear that up!!


you make a very good point as always.i ran a stock shock for what,2 years?i finally realized it was hurting me.not just in lap times,but in pyshical aspects.if your not out riding your equipment,theres no need to go all out untill you are.then invest in the high end parts.

and btw,i learned to ride so fast because i was tired of getting beat by a little old fat guy on a stock tri-z!!!!!LOL