83 250r Locked up PICS--*FIXED!

[smyers33]

Went on a ride today and the R locked up in 2nd pinned. I tried to kick it and it didn't budge. I let it sit for about 5 minutes then tried to kick it, and I could, but there is no compression what so ever. I just got this R a couple weeks ago, from ebay. I don't know if I should contact the seller, or what. This is my first 2 stroke, and I guess it needs a top end rebuild, but I have no idea how to do it. Anyone know what happened? Does this happen to the air cooled models often? If so I need something else. It really pisses me off though because I just got it 2 weeks ago! What should I do?

[Louis Mielke]

I would assume you were running mixed gas correct?

It probably was just tired and you happened to be the unlucky guy who owned it at the time. These bikes are 20yrs+. Only the very lucky pickone up thats super low hours. Yours probably just needed rebuilt. NO worries, everyone here on the board will help you out.

[p26575r16]

The air cooled models are very inexpensive and very easy to rebuild, and if done right it will last you a very long time. It sucks that it blew up, but if you rebuild it, at least you know what you've got.

[smyers33]

Yes I was using Klotz super tech. 32:1. When I pulled the head, It was the first time I seen the plug. It was a Denso, I can get the #'s if needed. Got it took apart... The cylinder doesn't look too bad, Gonna need a new piston. When I pulled the carb off there was a little razor blade type thing in the reed cage. It was just laying in there not screwed down or nothing. Also isn't there supposed to be 2 of those things? Could that of caused it to do this? First engine build and tear down here so any tips on taking the circlips off of the wrist pin. I got one out, but still can't get the other one. I don't even know where to start. Here are some pics.

[slothminx]

Good oil at a good mix ratio. You might have developed an air leak somehow, or the carb got plugged up.

Now what I dont get is WTF the little blade thingy is?! Im almost certain that doesnt belong in there lol.

With the circlips, use some needle nose plies grab one side and just twist the thing in on itself. You will get new ones with the piston kit ;)

[gizmo_22]

from the looks of it that little blade thingy is a razor blade for scrapers, looks like somone had it apart before and forgot to take it out... probably caused you to run lean and lock it up... not very fun. But im sure youll have it back on the trail in no time.

[smyers33]

Here is a pic of the blade looking thing, for some reason I thought it had something to do with the reeds.

[Howdy]

That is a razor blade for scrapping gaskets off. In no way should have it been left in there.
Howdy

[smyers33]

Well damn, lol! So... I need to hone the cylinder. I don't think it needs to be bored, it's not that bad. Get new piston and rings.... New gaskets. Which reminds me is there supposed to be a gasket between the head and the cylinder, because there wasn't when I took it apart. Any recommendations on where to get all this stuff? I'll prolly just go to denniskirk.

[Xowner]

ahhhhhhhhh there was no head gasket???? thats a big no no ! wow that motor builder sucks not only did he leave the head gasket out but he left tools in the motor. as far as the gasket the place you ordered your piston from should be able to get you one. also order the complete gasket kit if you can afford it as you never know when you might need one for the bottom end never know it might save you a day of riding !


Good luck man

[smyers33]

Alright I haven't ordered anything yet, since I don't know the measurement of the cylinder. Anyone know a good place to get a hone, and what kind to get?

[SYKO]

you WILL have to bore the cyl, you wont be able to get away with just a hone job.. a decent bore shouldnt be no more than 50 and make sure they now that there needs to be more clearence becouse its an aircooled motor!! what kind of piston did you order?? wiscoe?? the honest truth is you need to take it to a qualified cycle shop to let them check it out. But dont let it bring ya down that you just got it, Ive had worse!!! its just one of those things!! and before you take the cir clips out of the piston put some clean towels on top of the crank!!!! or they may fall into the crankcase and get stuck in the crank!!!

[Lomax]

Sand the top of the piston to see what size you are at now. There should be some number stamped in the top I.E. .40 or .10, something like that to indicate the size. If I was you I would bore to the next size up and go from there.

[200x Basket]

that cylinder will need bored!!!!! There is no way you got that lucky. take the cylinder to a machine shop that does motorcyle engines and ask them to measure it. (you can take it to a bike shop but they will take it to the machine shop and charge more). goto www.denniskirk.com and get a gasket kit. only get the top end, there is no need to waste the extra $$$$. get a cast piston not forged.

[Somekindofjerk]

Ontop of the piston there are numbers.. take some very fine sand paper and sand the top of the piston a little bit with it if you cant see them. When you have them get on www.denniskirk.com and search that number. There may allso be another number like .50 or .25 or another number.. .that is an overbore number. There will be a longer part number though that is what you need to search for on the website.

[twgranger]

I cant believe that thing actually ran!!!!!

[smyers33]

So it will need to be bored eh... I'll go take the piston out and comeback with some more info...Thanks

[smyers33]

Sanded the piston, and found out its a Wiseco 70.00mm. I belive that is stock bore. Sooo.... I will have to take it to a machine shop and just get it bored .10 over? Syko, what do you mean there needs to be more clearance. Also are we sure that the damn razor blade is what caused this? If so how? Did it just mess up the Oil, Gas, and Air mixture?

[Billy Golightly]

Holy crap dude, no offense but you shouldn't have even cracked a nut on that topend with all that mud dirt and grass around it :eek: I can see somes already fallen down inside the crankcase in the other picture. VERY VERY carefully bolt the topend back down and clean that crap off before a clod falls in somewhere you didn't notice. #1 thing that gives long engine life is cleanliness, it can also be the #1 remover of engine life.

Once you get everything cleaned you can take it back apart and get the circlips out with either an icepick or something small and pointy like the end of a pocket knife or a fork. Rag up the crankcase though so when it comes out it dont fall in.

[smyers33]

I know I prolly shouldn't have, but I was just caught up in the moment and wasn't thinking. I had the motor shining before I took it out this morning and then it got muddy. I do take great care of my machines, and wash them after almost every ride. I've had a towel down in the crank ever since I pulled the cylinder. I am going to flush out the bottom end after I get the piston off. I read somewhere that you can use kerosene or diesal. What should I use to flush it out?

[SYKO]

thats not the stock bore on it, but you should have 1 or 2 more bores left, depending on the amount of damage done to the cyl, also dont buy a piston untill you know how much they plan on boring to remove the damage from the cyl. on an air cooled motor there needs to be more piston to cyl clearance, less on a water cooled, exspecially if you are goint to use a wiscoe piston, the razor blade, well I dont see it causing any of the damage, the only thing I could see it doing is blocking some of the air, creating a rich mixture, so it didnt lock up from being rich, what did your spark plug look like?? the only way it could have leaned out was a leak on the head, becouse you said there was no gasket. you will end up only having about $160 in it if you do the work (i.e assembly) wich isnt bad, be glas is wasnt a 4 stroke that droped a valve and broke a timming chain!

[Billy Golightly]

When you get the piston off, if you look under the bottom side of it all the way up under the dome, if there is any burnt "ash" looking build up there its a good indication you were, or were on your way to lean air/fuel mixture. A black and dark brown stain on it is normal but the ash is not.

[smyers33]

Alright Billy thanks for that tip. Syko, The plug is nasty, black and oily, I wish I would've changed it when I got it. It is a weird brand too. It's a Denso W20FP-U.
Also here is a pic of the head. It seems fine, with a tiny little scrach in it.

[SYKO]

man from what I can tell the electrode on the plug looks lean! and oily on the threads, was it installed tight in the motor??

[smyers33]

The electrode is a grayish color, and the threads are black oily. Actually it wasn't all the way tightened. Seemed too easy when I took the wrench to it.

[oldsking86]

Dude that brings back memories on a guys chevelle I worked on. It was a 1970 with a BB 396, gorgeous car!! Well the guy brought it to use for a cam, carb, intake, MSD ignition and some more stuff.. Anyhwo we took the intake off and in the valley sitting there was a SCREWDRIVER!!! THe car was running a bit rough when we got and that was the main problem right there lol

Hopewfully you get that sucker squared away and running too! Good luck !

[Erics350x]

i would rebuild the carb to be safe.

[200x Basket]

you were way lean. the seized the piston. if you had no head gasket you may have been sucking air there or it is jette to lean. I would buy a carb kit and clean/ rebuild the carb. fresh bore and new piston with a new gasket kit. after all of that i would look into doing an air test to check for leaks.

i would also check the head is nice and flat. to do you need a thick pain of glass and some 600 grit wet sand paper. place the paper on the glass and then place the head on the paper. lightly sand in a circular motion until the whole gasket surface is shiney.

[smyers33]

Well I cleaned the carb, all the jet holes are and were open, I blew them out with the air compressor. You can see where there are nic's and scracthes in the carb from the razor blade. They are all small and I don't think they should affect anything. I guess I'll just order this carb kit http://denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=171350&store=Main&catId=111&productId=p172609&leafCatId=11101&mmyId=5899 since its only 15 bucks. I wonder if they old owner didn't rejet after adding the boyseen reeds and exhaust pipe? I don't know. I got the circlips out, but now how do I take the wrist pin out? I'm going to be calling around and asking some cycle shops where to get my cylinder bored at, and hopefully take it their this week.

[SYKO]

you just got to push the wrist pin out, sometimes it can be a pain, but it will come out, but whatever you do dont use a hammer to push it out!!!

[smyers33]

Dagum... Ill back back with a couple of broken thumbs lol... Can I use any lubricant?

[SYKO]

you can take a deep well socket thats the same size of the wrist pin put one hand on one side of the piston and with the other hand bump the socket against the wristpin, and its a 2 stroke if you had oil in the gas the pin is lubbed, just work at it a bit it will come out eventually, my old 200sx was a *Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited**E dited* to take out, and when it did it shot across the shop! lol!

[TimSr]

Maybe its just me, but if I bought something two weeks ago, and it blew, Id chalk it up to bad luck, but if it blew, and I found it had a razer blade in the intake, and no head gasket, Id be thinking somebody slapped it together enough to make it run, and knowingly sold me something defective, and knew full well, it would not last. I dont know how it was represented, but if it was represented as running and rideable, Id be contacting the seller.

[smyers33]

When I went to pick it up he said he had just got it and was just reselling it for some reason. I don't know if he bought it and got it running or what. Here is the auction link.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=010&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=200059576430&rd=1,1

[slothminx]

THIS BIKE IS IN EXCELLENT CONDITION AND READY TO GO.

with that description you should be telling the seller

[smyers33]

I might call him and ask if he had ever been in the motor before, but I won't tell him what happened until I get some background on what he did to it.

Any way I'm still have a hell of a time getting this wrist pin out, I got it to move maybe 1/2 a centimeter, with a pair of needle nose. Any other tips on how to remove this SOB!

[toocheaptosmoke]

I've used a large C clamp with the deep well sockets to press the wrist pin out.

[smyers33]

I've used a large C clamp with the deep well sockets to press the wrist pin out.

YOUR A GENIUS!!!! Going to try that after some tasty enchiladas!

[smyers33]

Going to drop the cylinder off after this bowl of Creamy Chicken Ramon Noodles...(MMMMM MMM) Do I need to make sure to tell them anything besides it's an air cooled motor and there needs to be more clearance? They said they'll do it for around 40 $

[longbedGTs]

Wow! I tried to get the guy to trade for my '86 250SX. Glad he didnt take the offer now! Sorry to hear of your luck bro. Look at it this way. Now you'll have the know how to do it again and possibly make some money doing it for someone else! :beer

[ceaserthethird]

For that Amount of Cash $1,000 ... Gee What a honest guy!

The guy's Current auctions are ATV Parts ... ( Parting Out ATV's )

He also Has a - " E-GAY Store " Called - ( SANRFORD'S ATV REPAIR ) :rolleyes:

This Guy New What he Did , I'm Blocking this loser on my e-bay Account ....:banned:

He Bent You Over - Call Him , Have Him Pay for the Part's At the Very Least :mad:

[Billy Golightly]

Yes make sure they put a good chamfer on all the ports, and clearence the exhaust port bridge if it has one. Cant remember if the airfoolers do or not. The wiseco or similiar piston should come with details instructions on how much the clearences should be.

[smyers33]

Well I took the cylinder in and they said that they need the new piston to decide how much clearance that they needed. We measured it and it was 70 mm, and he looked it up and it is stock bore. He said that I should more than likely go .20 over to be safe. I also had him look at my reeds and he said that I should go ahead and replace them while I had it apart. I'll get some pics of them and ask yall if I should order them too.

And Billy, by chamfer do you mean round the edges slightly? Sorry I'm new to all this.

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q202/smyers33/REEDS2.jpg
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q202/smyers33/REEDS1.jpg

[SYKO]

man I cant tell by the pics what the reeds look like, can you take a diffent pic?

[smyers33]

Here are some more pics... What are they supposed to look like? lol... Never seen new ones so... I don't know. Also what do they exactly do... I might as well learn now. Thanks

[smyers33]

Is this the piston I want to order? http://denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp;jsessionid=3GGVLCHG2QG3RLA0WTKSM4VMDK0 NCIV0?skuId=&store=Main&catId=110&productId=p431M07025&leafCatId=11007&mmyId=5899

[SYKO]

still kinda hard to tell, but they dont looked cracked, do they have small visable cracks in them?? if so ditch them for some new ones, sometimes you can flip them to get more life out of them.

[SYKO]

what over bore is that?? my local cycle shop sells pistons to me alot cheaper than dennis kirk sells them, slow down alittle and go out and get some more info from some decent shops, before you blow alot of unwanted cash, I only paid 85 bucks for my .80 over 85 250R piston, and its lists for about 125 in dennis kirk so.. do the math.

[daputz]

As long as the reeds are not ripped or fraying there should be a spec in the manual for allowable lift of the reed from the reed block measured at the tip of the reeds (zero is ideal).

[smyers33]

I can barely fit that razor blade in the gap... I think they are fine.

[toocheaptosmoke]

If your local shop can't give you a good price on a piston, there's a guy on ebay, sledpartsguy, he has wi$eco piston kits for like 80 bucks. I just bought one from there, save some cash :D

[oldsking86]

what over bore is that?? my local cycle shop sells pistons to me alot cheaper than dennis kirk sells them, slow down alittle and go out and get some more info from some decent shops, before you blow alot of unwanted cash, I only paid 85 bucks for my .80 over 85 250R piston, and its lists for about 125 in dennis kirk so.. do the math.

Hey syko how many cc's does .80 over put your 250R at? I been meaning to get a nice bore done to mine but want to konw how exactlly the change the cc's out of a 250r..

Hope your ready for the 20th, it's coming up soon, me and my buddies are there for sure! Beer in hand lol :beer

[smyers33]

Well I placed the order yesterday (1/9/07), and got the .20 over piston kit from the guy on ebay. I also ordered top end gasket set, and and outerwarez for my air filter from denniskirk. I'm hoping to get it by Friday, but I don't know. Now my question is, do I just use gear oil to flush out my bottom end, and do I just put the oil in the fill spot? Or can I put oil down in where the crank is showing? I hope to have it rebuilt by the end of this weekend. While breaking it in, what steps should I take? I have a NGK BR8ES ready to go in, should I go with a BR9ES? I know the 8 is hotter, so I don't want it to seize again. Sorry for all the questions guys, but I don't want to screw anything up!

[toocheaptosmoke]

I would use diesel or kerosene. Pour it into the crankcase, it is sealed off from the transmission.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[oldsking86]

I run the NGK BR9ES or B9ES in my R never had a problem with it. In the tecates we run the 8's. I think it's up to you, but I would stick with what honda calls for, the 9's.

[Liquid-Darkness]

Those reeds are aftermarket. You can tell because of the stops are removed. They look like Boyesen Power reeds. If you replace them or take them off for any reason, use Locktight when putting the holding screws back in. Just make sure the top reed is easyer to open then the bottem. Check with a screw driver. The manual calls for a stock B8ES NGK. Stock main jet calls for at least 158.

[smyers33]

I would use diesel or kerosene. Pour it into the crankcase, it is sealed off from the transmission.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Has anyone else tried the diesal or kerosene? Does it still drain throgh the drain plug in the bottom?

[SYKO]

no you have to pul the motor out of the frame, the drain plug underneath is for the trans fluid, you will have to tuen the motor upside down to ge the deisel out.

[smyers33]

Had family visit from Ohio this weekend, so I didn't get much done. I got the motor loose, and ready to come out. Now, do I have to take the swinger off to get the motor out? I assume you do because I've tried to move this motor every which way. Still waiting on my piston...

[smyers33]

I got my cylinder back today, and they did not chamfer the ports, but they told me that it will need to be done before I reassemble. The owner told me just to take some fine sand paper and go over them till they are rounded a bit. Another worker told me to use a rattail file. Will either work? I think the file will take too much metal away but I dont know. Let me know which to use. Thanks

[250rCRazed]

you just got to push the wrist pin out, sometimes it can be a pain, but it will come out, but whatever you do dont use a hammer to push it out!!!

hahahah... I laughed my ass off after you said that, and then I instantly read in your profile "if it doesn't fit, use a hammer, if that doesn't work, get a bigger hammer!!" LOL

[SYKO]

lmfao!!! I should put a side note in "ecept when taking a wrist pin out" lol!!!

[smyers33]

im currently installing the piston. should the arrow on the piston point towards the carburator??? thanks a lot

[SYKO]

negative!!!! arrow---> to exhaust!!!!!

[SYKO]

negative!!!! arrow---> to exhaust!!!!!

[smyers33]

thanks a lot syko... putting clips in her now. gettin excited

[badass70]

jet up main 2sizes and maybe raise needle in carb 1 notch by lowering c-clip also be sure to always warm up an air fooler very well to advoid a cold seizeure.

[smyers33]

I don't really want to mess with the jets at all, since it was running flawless until this happened. I don't think it was my carb that caused it either, or I think it would've happened sooner. What are some different precautions to take when braking it in? In the service manuel It says to replace the plug with a BR8ES, but that is hotter than a BR9ES....Shall I go with the 9?

[toocheaptosmoke]

negative!!!! arrow---> to exhaust!!!!!

just wanted to add that the ends of the rings never go over the exhaust port, never know when you might get some oddball piston that is marked differently. :beer

[SYKO]

well the rings on a 2 stroke hav elocater pins in them to keep them from rotating around and catching a port, also do a couple heat cycles let it run for a few mins then cool completly do this a few times then drive it a few times, never going over 3/4 throttle, and let cool completely, maybe have alittle extra oil in the gas for break in, also jst run the b8es plug it will be fine, you should be ok.

[maggiesboy]

Here is a pic of the blade looking thing, for some reason I thought it had something to do with the reeds.


That really looks like a "power now" insert that failed. I've had customers return them due to a failure..."coming apart"

[smyers33]

IT'S RUNNNING!!!! I just got to set the idle, and then I'll start doing some heat cycles. Thank you everyone for all your help through this. I had not one trouble at all doing it and I am amazed at how easy it its. Also I'm amazed at how hard it is to kick now! I LOVE IT!!!!! How many hours do ya'll suppose it'll be before I can go all out? Here is a vid of the first start up, on the coldest day of the damn year!!! LOL I LOVE IT!!!

http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q202/smyers33/th_HPIM1542.jpg (http://s137.photobucket.com/albums/q202/smyers33/?action=view&current=HPIM1542.flv)

[ceaserthethird]

Sounds Good - :w00t:

Is the Seller Going to pay for Any thing ?

[smyers33]

I decided not to even deal with him... I know some of you would, but I decided to let it go...Even though I probably should have made him. I don't know if that is right or not, but I'm happy since I've got it running!

[SYKO]

yea just do some heat cycles to it, try not to let it just sit and idle blip the throttle every now and then, do that about 4-5 times then go ride a few times not staying at any constant throttle, and not going over 3/4 open either do this for a while and you will be on your way to ripping it up again!! GOOD JOB!!!

[ATC-Eric]

Congrats man! :beer

[smyers33]

Well, done 4 or more Heat cycles already, and finnally fixed my idle on the 4th one lol. Warming up a bit then going back out to ride it a bit! Might be going to a friends track this weekend, if his 450r is back by then!!! Thanks again guys!

[200x Basket]

check the plug before you romp on it. you do not want it to go lean again!! i would also clean the petcock

[smyers33]

Plug is a nice medium shade of brown and it runs excellent. It's like having a whole new engine!!! I LOVE IT!!! I changed my gear oil to Bel Ray gear saver, and it shifts 10 times smoother!! I'm in heavan!!!! Approx. How many slow rides at less than 3/4 throttle to I have to make before I can go all out?

[SYKO]

well I went about 4-5 then Ive been rippin ever since!!! belray gear saver rulz!!!

[tecat-z]

Seems like you did a nice job on your first top end job. Now to keep that top end fresh i cant stress enough the importance of clean air to the engine, I'm sure you know this already, but on 2strokes its even more important than thumpers. I always have two on hand, so one is in a sealed bag and ready at a moments notice. Uni filters are dual stage and don't restrict air. Welcome to the world of trikes and hope your R is good to you. However you must be warned, one is never enough!!

[smyers33]

Tecat-z I have a Moose airfilter on the R now and its about the same as the UNI on my 200x. what do you mean by one is never enough?

[SYKO]

LOL HE ment 1 R!!!! woot!!!!

[smyers33]

Lol ok thank you for clarifying.... I do need another 2 stroker around here.... hmmmmm

[Bryan Raffa]

YES that Bel ray is the best!!! congrats!!