Is there a market for this?

[DixiePlowboy]

It seems like this has been asked in years past, but there is a very good(!) reason that I would like to get a "current temp" on this subject.


Would any of my fellow 3-wheel devotees buy a new 3 wheeler?

I'll paint a rough picture for you....the culmination of nearly a decade of daydreaming.

A machine geared towards experienced recreationists and those who desire to compete(yes compete) on three wheels. For those of us deserted by the industry long ago when political pressure overtook common sense.

A "new" 3-wheeler based upon an old principle: KISS(keep it simple stupid).
(See also: Tricky Dick's Cagiva and Tiger ATV)

A new frame designed with best features of high performance frames past.

Wheelbase and axle width determined by performance testing.

Adjustable, beefy, long travel suspension that can be easily tuned for motocross/flattrack.

Readily available parts...Engine, plastic, suspension, brake, bearings, axles, etc...

Lighting that's easily removable.

A 300cc 2-stroke liquid cooled kick start, carbed engine/6-spd manual clutch tranny from a known manufacturer.

Choice of twist or thumb throttles.

Tether killswitch.

Frame mounted radiators.

Dry weight around 275 lbs.

Low profile rear tires.

Race/quad hunting ready right off the production floor.

Priced well under most of the bloated performance machines available today, but more than what many have in our original run of 3 wheelers.


I have pondered the question "why?" for years. The reasons for each of us with this desire may be something we can't verbalize; at least rationally.

For me, it's partially to see what the magazines, former racers, trike addicts of old and young have to say. Then again.....it may be that I want to throw a leg over a new machine that can whup what those without a clue are riding.

[mnnmaz]

Well I agree with you on "For those of us deserted by the industry long ago when political pressure overtook common sense." I would FOR SURE pay for a new trike!!!!!! I just dont see it happening :( seeing that 2 strokes are not being made my the mfgs. Sure would be nice tho!!!!! :P

[atctim]

just my honest opinion here - sure we all say we would love one. Let's look at some figures here - on this site (approx. 7000 member) I would guess roughly 500 would buck up and buy one. Among the rest of the world I could prolly safely say another 500 may buy one (I know some of the guys up in Canada who guide big hunts prefer them to the 4 wheeler counterparts). that's only 1000 machines!!!! of these 1000 people - how many would turn around and buy another new one each year? maybe a handful. If a small independent company (much like OCC but of the off road style) could produce them for us - that would be sweet, but I am guessing they would have a price tag of $10,000 - and that prolly takes the 1000 buyers back to about 200.

Just my opinion. I'll start saving my money for that day - as I would love for this to materialize, but have great doubts if it will!

[Dammit!]

Better sell it as a kit or the CPSC will be all over you.

In my opinion though, I'd bet you'd be lucky to sell close to 200 of them. If that.

[DixiePlowboy]

What I am proposing, would be a minimal production run ...let's say 100 units in the first year, by a small, independant company that happens to be located in an area where production costs are projected to be relatively low.....therefore keeping overall price of a machine lower than it would seem it should be.

There is a manufacturer making the engine I described, but I hesitate to elaborate at this time.

There are some parts still to be sourced, and manufacturing details to be addressed.

My purpose this thread, is establish that I am not the only one with this desire to see, touch, and ride a "new" 'wheeler that would pay $4- 5 grand for one.



Can you imagine Dirt Wheels with a 3 Wheeler on the cover again?

I can.


Keep the opinions coming!

[DixiePlowboy]

I know what you're saying about the CPSC, but unless they're willing to fight all 2-wheeled motorcycle/bicycle sales and production, they'd better argue with someone else.


I'm not wealthy enough to litigate against their stupidity, but I'm willing to take my chances.

That burden would be mine.

I just wanted to know if I should build one for myself or some for ya'll too.

[Dammit!]

You better research how the CPSC is going to react to it and what affect it will have on your plans. They're getting all bent out of shape about the little chinese pieces of crap. A performance trike well make them soil themselves. :lol:

[smyers33]

How about you start making parts for the older trikes. Parts that have the same specs as the discontinued items, or extremely rare. Like a mugen cylinder, hondaline 300cc kit, all sorts of desired items. There would be more interest in that stuff compaired to a new trike. Just my 2 cents.

[DixiePlowboy]

"A performance trike would make them soil themselves"



LOL! Another good reason to build them.:beer

I love it!

[DixiePlowboy]

How about complete Short Track tank kits....just for starters?

[SYKO]

I say just make a frame liek the nicholson frame where the "buyer" can put whatever motor he would want in it, make frame, tripples, tank, swinger, and use current plastic like maire rear fender/front fender, and parts like lonestar rear carriers/axles, I owuld say a rolling frame would cost around 2500-3000 without motor, now that to me is interesting, and I would personally pony up the bucks for something like that, fit differnt motors for it and have seperate motor mounts avail with the kit fro the differnt motors, I.E/ atc/trx 250r crf/trx 450r/ yfz 450/ ltr 450/ ktm 540 and such as that.. but dont try to make a NEW trike.

[Huffa]

The simpleist approach in designing one would be to go opposite of what they used to do which of course is converting 3 wheelers to 4.

Take production 4 wheelers and convert them to 3 wheelers. That still would be cheaper (a lot cheaper) then designing a whole trike.

I'd buy a new one from the suggestions you made though but feelfuel injection should be added since in the next few years most motox bikes and a lot of ATV's will have it.

I stick by my 1st idea though and here is how it would look, sort of .........

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/huffa/ATC450F.jpg

[4cylinders]

hey, I agree with syko, frames to convert/use your parts to build one off machines. That way you are the mfg, and it's a prototype. I'm already working on that myself , because it's too expensive to get a frame made to your specs.

[ceaserthethird]

I'm Down for 4k or 5k ...... Keep up posted !

[mnnmaz]

I'm in for 4 or 5k for sure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get it done and have one ready to ship and PM me and I'll send you the money with in a hour! LOVE 3 wheels!!!!!!!!!!!
:naughty:
I'm so excited.... wonder if its possible :Bounce :Bounce

more :pics: :pics: :pics: :pics: where did you get that one anyway? Its sweet, although Im a Yamaha fan but for a new trike, I can handle a honda :naughty:
:w00t: :w00t:

[team-red-rider]

ok like ive been doing ATT is still going we have made 2 trikes (almost complete needs engine and minor stuff) and on xmas day i hope to get a new camera and then have some pix but any one willing to help me or i can help anyone else with ideas like i could build some parts if need be!

[DixiePlowboy]

My thoughts on 2 & 4 wheel designs to a 3 wheel layout are these. Keep in mind that I do not have an example of either machines on hand, but from what I can see and imagine....

On converting 4 to 3:
1. There is the problem of having to remove and reconstruct framework ahead of the engine that, for the most part on a four wheeler, does not have a downtube or a suitable steering stem that would support the forks/clamps/tire weight and forces of their movement without substantial modification.

2.(And this is true of converting either to 3 wheels)The high intial cost of say for example, a TRX 450R(over $6000) is a lot of up-front cost. Add $1500 to $2000 for a conversion more to that price and it becomes less atractive....and what you end up with is still heavier and slower than what I envision.

3.With CR to 3 wheels, it would be even more costly. A new rear subframe to support plastic and my rear, new triple clamps, all three hubs, front axle, rear axle, carrier, etc... and a swingarm that would pivot on a much narrower mount than what I think would be adequate to handle the twisting forces that the machine would now encounter as a result of being a couple feet+ wider in the rear, it becomes a nerve racking undertaking.

....and these are just some of the difficulties.


Maybe I'll just make lugnuts....:lol:

[TimSr]

Funny how you can post a poll and ask "who would buy a new 3 wheeler" and evrybody says "yes" without even thinking about whether or not they actually have any money, or would be willing to part with if the opportuinity truly materialized. I think 500 would be an extremely liberal estimate, but lets say you could sell that many.

4 or 5 K???? For a Brand new low volume, custom production, perfromance ATV??? Which do you can sell for less? 50,000 of something made by a high volume mfg such as Honda, or 500 of something made with hand tools in somebodys small time garage? You are bankrupt before the first machine is ever completed, and if youre not, the govt will have you out of business before you learn to spell CPSC!

The idea of a kit is more realistic, but that would even require a great engineering expense, but would be more likley to suceed in such a limited market. You cant make a kit for every model, because that requires an awful of enginnering on EACH model you deal with. You would need a custom made frame your enginners would have to design, and you would want front end components still in production, from a bike. Companies such as Lonestart build quad frames, but be prepared for a minimum order that makes it worth their while. You dont want srvice parts issues. You would probably need custom triples, and a custom front hub and wheel. The kit would consists of using a current production 4 wheeler, and moving everything to the trike frame, including rear end, swinger, shock and plastic. Service Honda put CR250 motors on 400EX frames for years, with current production parts and sold them as "new" 250R's. The most logical model now would be the TRX450R, since Honda was the best selling trikes. You would probably be looking at $2-4K for the kit which would not include your brand new TRX450R.

[oldskool83]

i think you should try somthing. honda takes goldwings and makes them into 3 wheelers....and they can go 100mph+!

i would love to see somone with to much money on their hands try ti bring them back. some will never like them and people stil will die....my fiances brother lost 2 friends on 250R's turning to sharp in a coil field this month. only thing i think if thye would come back there should be people willing to teach the art of riding one correct kind of like new ATV sales i think some require a lesson or somthig like that on riding them.

4-5K for a new 3wheeler seems fair...cant even get a new 125cc 2 stroke dirtbike for that anymore.

[mnnmaz]

Hey - I'll take one today! if its avail? 4 or 5K is a sweet price! Again, if it happens... PM Ill send the money in an hour! :)

[DixiePlowboy]

The way I see this and the way that I'm figuring:


Let's say you have frames from an '85 R, '85 & '86 Tecate.

You can draw from the best parts of each design. After time and careful consideration, you make one frame from this collaboration. One that will accept parts that are already available from either aftermarket or OEM parts bins. One that will easily accept plastic that's still made. For example, maybe borrowing from the Cagiva(and I should have my arse kicked for selling mine)scheme a little, you use 1st generation Tecate low profiles in the rear. I'll take mine in white.

Once you have a workable frame in a tested prototype, building a frame jig isn't that hard. You can then sub it out to one of many local shops here, some of which are very good and not too expensive.
Swingarms, axles, carriers, brakes, triple clamps become more easily acquired. Even when you must modify existing designs, the research and develpoment process is nowhere near as costly.

I wouldn't expect to have dealerships and outlets like a big manufacturer. We're talking small volume here.....maybe even to members here only.


The wild card is the cost of the engines complete with carbs and electronics/harnesses.

What may sound like an unholy Frankenstein creation, would in acuality be unique by the time the changes were made and the whole process of careful consideration to the harmony of every part with every other part completed. Just get it right...great handling, great ergonomics, and scary fast.


The finished product would be unique, fun, attractive, and most importantly, potent.

....and if someone else produces this instead of me with anywhere near the result I imagine, I'll buy one and buy you a beer!:beer

[oldskool83]

i think if you want to do this you should start where everyone else stoped style wise. i belive is their ever was a 1988 ATC250R it would of had a tank and radiator shrouds close to the 1988-91 cr250/500 and came in fighting red.

the Tecate 3 prob would of lost the look the the 1985/86 KX250/500 radiato shrounds and tank and would of gotten the new style like 1988-89 KX250/500

suzuki would of made somthing with a RMish front and LT rear end.

tri-z would of been right and white and lose the 1983-85 style radiator shrounds and gotten a new style close to the 1986-87 YZ's. i bet fender may have looked like banshee fenders and a similar tank.

anyway these types of idea would be great on a new trike if you were doing homegrown customs. updating the current style they had to somthing more of what the next newest fasion was in the late 80's may look very cool.

if not you could always make you new wheeler yellow and blue to give it a stand out look at me everyone! just let them fit you choise of 125/250/500 motors from current motocross bike and i think you'll have a thing going.:w00t:

[super90]

I dont think modifying a 450 to a ATC would be too hard. If you could somehow replace the radiator and all that other worthless stuff, you could weld a good front end on there with a 250r downtube with a 250r front end. If anyone wants to donate a 450 ill be glad to give it a go. Definatley not impossble.

[SYKO]

I go back to what I said about jsut offering a "universal frame, suspension setup" with the option to put whatever motor you want in it, right now you can buy a hardtail chopper frame for about `1500, then you can add all the parts till you got, a chopper, of course that isnt cheap, Tim SR I would in fact right now pay 4-6 thousand dollars for a "new trike" I make enough money that no new quad is out of site, I just dont enjoy them as much. Lonestar starts there frames out at about 2500 for trx250r frames, I can imagine that they can go on that or similar design and add a downtube to make it a trike frame, I could go for that as well, I can imagine the actuall start up for this would be no less than 100,000 dollars, to get everything goint, unfourtantly I dont think you could ever make even that amount back, unless you only offer one thing say just a frame for 1500, and not everything else make it a kit that the buyer would have to complete to his liking.

[Huffa]

You can get a decent 02 CRF 450R with 55 crank horsepower for around $1800 -2500 right now. Another $2000 - 2500 should easily be enough (just a rough guess) to convert it into a trike I would think so your under 5000 for a masterpiece of a trike and a frame (I love the aluminum ones) that actually starts to look nicer with age if taken care of + no painting involved eihter.

For those of you that are not familure with a 02 CRF 450, here is mine.

This would make an awsome looking trike for sure!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/huffa/DSC03474.jpg

[Teeksoffroad]

Let me answer your original question........... No.

[SYKO]

the problem with dirt bike conversions is the seat hight, it would be to tall, if the conversion included a differnt subframe that sat the seat area down further it would be possible, remember the dirt bike to quad conversions that used to be out? they just angled out the forks and used them like longe mcpherson struts for the front suspension and added plastic and a swinger, I remeber seing some of them in race action in dirtwheels before, Speedbumb here knows all the in and outs of converting a bike into a trike, it can be done, but in my op it needs to have more modifications to make it a capable trike.

[cr480r]

If you sold the bike as a big-wheel motorcycle maybe you could slip past the cpsc. Then have a related company provide the swingarm, axle, and fenders... just an idea.

[OldSchoolin86]

It's a cool idea but it would be a total miracle if 20 people ponied up. Also if you look at it in a liability aspect you'd be a sitting duck. Being they were banned for a period of time any decent lawyer would win a case like that if someone got hurt.

[cr480r]

Also what about vin #s? How would you register such a beast? Selling a complete bike is a serious liability. You would have to sell kits or convertable bikes or quad machines. That way the buyer would have to assemble his own risk...

[Meat-BoX]

Ive been wondering why no one has made a new Trike from scratch for Performance reasons. If it was built with todays technology and set up with the proper dimensions they would be safer for those who know how to ride. Newbies would just get hurt unless you made smaller ones like that sweet Honda ATC 80 R at Trikefest. That one would give the 250cc's a run for their money. I would buy one for sure if I had the money at the time. I say make them by order only after you put a few out to be tested by some people here. Most live in OHIO:w00t:
Anyway make a few and then give them 100 hours of Break in time and sell them as used 3 wheelers. If we can sell used Trikes why not yours.

[Yamahondaman]

DANG !!! i got here LATE !! soooo much Typing !!!

[cr480r]

maybe buyers could send you the head tube off thier old frame and you could just be "customizing" what already exists. Something like a 6 thousand dollar remodel...

[cr480r]

Then you could make stems that were compatible with hon/kaw/yam etc. to fit your new triples. The forks could could also be sold separately as retrofits to help keep manufacturing costs down.

[3 weelin geezer]

I would prefer a 4 stroke so I don't have to go mixing oil and gas again. I love my 185s. I wouldn't mind it if they imported them again or made them here. Unfortunately even the dealer's parts guys think they are dangerous. But I keep asking for them anyways. I told him its the rider's fault he can't stay on top. He's the one thats supposed to be in charge not the trike. I only fall off of something with 3 fat wheels if I am drunk. Or if the throttle cable sticks but thats fixed. Even then, its hard to fall off if you have a good grip on something.

[DixiePlowboy]

As to the means of vehicle ID numbers and such, I have to admit that I didn't give that a whole lot of consideration. My apologies to those of you that live/ride in states where you need some sort of registration. Living in Alabama, we have no such problem.

The first thought that comes to mind is that I have laid hands on a Team Honda 85R many years ago(in '86) that if memory serves me correct, didn't have normal VIN numbers stamped into it. CrisD may be able to shed some light on whether or not my memory has been too impared by bad years of good beers.

Anyone have any info on the process they used?

If custom built OCC bikes and such can be titled/registered, then I'm sure this is a problem that could be worked out.

[SYKO]

hey dixie are you close to south georgia?
should come over and ride!!!

ok back to the thread

[4cylinders]

hey, don't be detoured by the negative comments, build one and have fun with it. If someone wants to buy it, go for it, but be building the next one. You're right, you just have to avoid the land mines. To be a mfg, you may have to get a license.

[3 weelin geezer]

The first thought that comes to mind is that I have laid hands on a Team Honda 85R many years ago(in '86) that if memory serves me correct, didn't have normal VIN numbers stamped into it.


No, for some reason they are probably 'incomplete'. I tried to find out for sure what year mine was and it only has 14 numbers. The dealer says they are supposed to have 17 so I took a picture. :wondering :confused: So, going by the last 14 numbers it has been determined this is a '81 model year going by the production numbers on the VIN.


Its like Christmas. When was Jesus REALLY born? Do we celebrate his birthday 8 months late? Was there really a star of Bethlehem or was it just Jupiter being eclipsed by the moon until after it was above the horizon so it looks like a new star began to shine:confused: ?

[Rex Karz]

....the culmination of nearly a decade of daydreaming.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

[torker]

I believe a kit would be the answer and the way to go...
You get the bike (new or used), you buy the kit, you put it together.
That's it.
Start with just one model of bike and make the kit for it. Someone used to do it for the CR500 back in the day.
It's already been done. I believe front geometry was not right, so the kit will need to have very good engeneering and development so the stock aluminum frame does not need to be cut.
Is it doable? I think the answer is YES!!!

Any takers???

TORKER.

[Scooter77]

I still til this day dont get why a simple disclaimer dont settle this whole thing. They do it with cigarettes and other dangerous things. Why the hell dont they just slap a disclaimer on trikes and let us have them. Anyone that has been killed on a trike was obviousley doing something they should'nt have been doing. Like speeding and taking a sharp turn or trying to do tricks they didnt have the skill to do. many of us on this site have ridden trikes for years and we're still breathing. I hate to see comunist companys force there will on people like that. :TrikesOwn

[monstertruckr81]

im wondering why they still sell tricycles at walmart for kids?????
any one ever ponder this aspect of thiught just cause u add power to it isnt a big deal

[Bigbore]

I still til this day dont get why a simple disclaimer dont settle this whole thing. They do it with cigarettes and other dangerous things. Why the hell dont they just slap a disclaimer on trikes and let us have them. Anyone that has been killed on a trike was obviousley doing something they should'nt have been doing. Like speeding and taking a sharp turn or trying to do tricks they didnt have the skill to do. many of us on this site have ridden trikes for years and we're still breathing. I hate to see comunist companys force there will on people like that. :TrikesOwn


Ask the cigarette companies if the disclaimers work! They've lost Billions in settlements and lost lawsuits over people that started smoking after the disclaimers were put on the packages. Hell, some weren't even born when they started the disclaimers and have still sued and won.

For practicality you can't build a COMPLETE 3 wheeler CPSC will shut you down. Personal injury lawyers will sue you for everything you have. You'll never meet the EPA standards for emissions. A two stroke after this year won't even come close to meeting EPA standards. You'll have a hard time getting supplier to supply you with any parts because when I plaintiff’s lawyer brings a lawsuit they sue EVERY company that had anything to do with the product, don't believe me research aircraft lawsuits.

Ten years ago I was making several parts for AR-15's; barrels, aftermarket pistol grips, free-floating handguards, caliber conversion and other parts. I was registered as an LLC. It kept the possibility of lawsuits taking all of my personal money away. Even with making gun parts, I didn't have very many federal or state regulations to deal with. That's pretty bad when you can make gun parts easier than you can make a 3 wheeler! :wondering

The kit car builders had the same issues that you'll have. They couldn't do anything with COMPLETED cars! They couldn't meet government standards for safety. That couldn't meet EPA or CARB standards for emissions. They couldn't do anything! So they looked for a gray area in the law. :idea: They will sell you a kit that you assembled or they'll sell you a roller, with or without the engine. You'd get the roller and install their supplied, but uninstalled engine or you can install your own engine. The issue is that you'll be squashed if you tried to make a completely new 3 wheeler. Make a kit or a roller.

If your going to make a roller then do it like Nicholson did. Build a frame, swingarm, triples, and other components. Have it use easily accessible plastic i.e. TRX 450 rear and '85 250r front fenders. That way it allows the customer to put on blue plastic on his YZ based machine and the Honda guy to put red on his. Allow it to take a couple of different engines i.e. CRF 450, YZ 400/426/450, KX 250 or even a KX 500. Maybe have it take a couple of different 2 stoke motors, but all based off of one basic frame. Engineering for the steering geometry, the right handle bar /seat / foot peg locations isn't hard... it already been done. Don't try and re-engineer the frame!

The other way and probably the more successful way would be to build conversions. Machined triples, swingarms, front hub, front axle, and steel sub-frames. Pick 2 or 3 bikes for the basis of your conversion. Don't build one for every person that calls and wants one for his old dirt bike. Stick to the popular ones!

I'm all for the idea.:beer It takes a lot of money to get a small production of anything going. Look at the cost of a programmable tubing bender with the indexing tube holder, $18,000! http://www.southern-tool.com/store/baileigh_350-s_bender.html and http://www.southern-tool.com/store/baileigh_350-s_bender.html. Plus you need a good notcher their $5000. You can't even start building production frames without these. I'm looking at one myself, but can't justify the costs vs. the return.

[3bogger]

I love my 185s. I wouldn't mind it if they imported them again or made them here. Unfortunately even the dealer's parts guys think they are dangerous. But I keep asking for them anyways.

i know most of you on here are more performance oriented but wouldnt it be easyer to do this idea and make something like an old 185s? that way you could market it as more of a deep woods utility vehicle. seems to my legaly uneducated mind that would be easyer to get this all started. i know i would buy something like that or big red style over a performance 3 wheeler. but mabey its just because that style quad suits me better.

[4cylinders]

hey, there are companies on the net that will make any part you want, just email them a drawing.

[200x350xtriz250]

1st off great idea...hope this isn't just a topic. 2nd I don't want to discourage in any way...if you can and will do this however you decide to is great.:Bounce 3rd I would love to say I'm in $ wise, but as far as coming up with the cash to actually purchase one would depend on what was offered and still may not happen.

IMO...using a 2 stoke engine has +'s and -'s:

+'s...should easily fit in a average size frame, only have to mount radiator(not a battery and oil tank), light weight, powerful, and a good racer.

-'s...EPA will be all over it, soon they will be hard to find and supply, with restrictions on 2-strokes I think it is a matter of time before manufacturers stop making replacement parts for them(there's still aftermarket though), and IMO 2-strokes are not as good of a trail machine so you limit interest.

others want the big 4-stroke motors...that also has +'s and -'s IMO:

+'s...readily available by many companies, good racers as well as trail machines, many parts available by both the manufacterer and aftermarket, more reliable, and less EPA problems.

-'s...bigger and bulkier = harder to fit in a frame or the frame must be bigger; all the big 450's are electric start-battery, liquid cooled-radiators, and have oil tanks, you would have to find places for all these things( take a 350x and add radiators, a battery, and an oil tank...that's alot of stuff to mount on a trike).

my answer...400ex motor. it is bigger than most the old 3-wheeler motors, it now comes with reverse, it is not liquid cooled, it can be modified to a big bore 440, and if you could modify it to be a kick start...no battery.

I'm sure I'm bias being a Honda fan and owning a 400ex:D , but that's my 2 cents.


whatever you come up with :pics::drool: :pics: :drool: :pics: :drool:

[Maico]

Aluminum twin spar frame,Ohlins USD forks/rear shock and a 500+cc 2 smoke motor.Carbon fiber plastics and tank,titanium fasteners. Oh wait...keep it affordable.


Nevermind.:(

[cr480r]

The rolling chassis is the way. Make the frame with provivions for bolt on engine mounts. Then make mounts for the popular engines, and the custom setups could still be done without welding.