270R flat track engine assembly*Updated*Pictures of sleeve damage [Archive]

Billy Golightly

11-28-2006, 09:04 PM

Well the flat tracker motor is almost back together. This thing should seriously rip when I get it back in. List of mods:

LRD/Curtis Sparks (Cylinder has LRD on it but has a place behind it that was all ground out, Ronnie says its the same measurements as a Sparks cylinder though. So maybe someone sent it to LRD for clean up or something and they erased the Sparks engraving? Who knows, its got some bad ass porting either way for sure.) Bored to 69mm using 83-87 Pro-X YZ250 piston kit. Bead blasted and surfaced top and bottom by Ronnie.

Cometic 1/8th spacer plate to make up for the difference in wrist pin location from the 250R-YZ250 pistons.

Cometic .043 big bore head gasket.

Custom re-domed head, and surfaced from Ronnie.

Brand new OEM head studs, with stainless nuts and washers from Ronnie.

New custom ultra hard extended length stainless steel cylinder/case studs and dowel pins from Ronnie. These mofos won't be stretching any time soon :lol:

Hinson clutch basket.

Brand new OEM Honda clutch basket needle bearings.

Brand new Hot Rods Long rod 250R performance crankshaft.

Brand new OEM Honda '89 crankshaft gear.

New OEM main bearings with the extra balls, and crank seals.

Brand new OEM Honda clutch hub.

Hinson Pressure plate.

'89 clutch update (previously done).

Stainless side case dowel pins from Ronnie.

Boyesen Pro-series carbon fiber reeds on modified stock reed cage.

Brand new ESR/Sudco/Kehein 39PWK Carb.

Brand new ESR Billet exaust flange.

New center case, clutch cover, stator cover, etc gaskets.

I think thats about it, more pictures in the next post.

Edit: Actually I just realised 69x72 is 270cc and not 265. Oops :)

Billy Golightly

11-28-2006, 09:06 PM

Last pictures. My tables a mess I know :lol: :lol:

dirtface

11-28-2006, 09:21 PM

Billy, Did Your wife give you permision to build your greasy motor on the kitchen table?:lol: :lol:

Billy Golightly

11-28-2006, 09:23 PM

Haha I'm not married, but I did slip it in the house past my mom into my room and it was there a few days before she noticed :lol:

BigGreenMachine

11-28-2006, 09:35 PM

You never bothered to lighten the flywheel?

What else have you planned chassis wise?

Jason Hall

11-28-2006, 09:45 PM

Look's good billy, It should really run good for ya. That long rod crank should give you a little more torque to pull off the turn's. Good luck with It.

Billy Golightly

11-28-2006, 09:54 PM

No I didn't mess with the flywheel. I'm currently in the camp of thought that believes you need the flywheel mass if you are a larger rider or will be doing a lot of up and down shifting for the torque. If I weighed say 120-130lbs and wasn't going to be doing up and down revs in the corners I'd definitely lighten the flywheel AND the counter balancer but for my size and application I think I'm gonna leave it alone for now.

Chassis wise, I'm looking into an all new rear suspension setup I'll be making from scratch using lighter weight components, with a never before seen type of geometry to keep the suspension components at a lower center of gravity (Think, horizontal :)) And I'll also be working on slowly lightening up some of the main big components such as the triple clamps, frame, motor mounts, and hubs.

Thanks Jason, I think it'll run good. Maybe I can bring it along with me to TF and see how it runs on the strip? Doubt it'll be as fast as my 500 but who knows :lol:

3leggeddog

11-28-2006, 10:10 PM

looks real good billy.man you shoulda painted those center cases black to bring out the bling!!looks nice though!!!!

wheelie king

11-28-2006, 10:26 PM

MMMMMMM... that looks delicious!!!! Perfect for the center piece.

You know, I am glad you said that about the flyweel. I think that the weight of the flyweeel being heavier will benefit your torque, and keep it spinning better during rapid shifting. Reason I say that is, at least for us 200 (+) pound riders, Is that in your engine, it is harder to stop something heavy that is spinning fast. Therefore, reason not to mess with the flywheel, so you will have more force when you are upshifting when you dump the clutch, and putting more torquey power to the ground.

Well, enough for the redneck physics lesson, just my .02.

And Nice motor.....did I mention that????????:lol:

Pete

11-28-2006, 11:22 PM

lookin good Billy

Bryan Raffa

11-28-2006, 11:28 PM

AHHHHHH..... the Heart of a yamaha, someones learning something...LOL

Jason Hall

11-29-2006, 12:05 AM

How bout an oval at TF07. There would be a bunch of people willing to give It a whirl don't Ya think. It would be some Intense racing & I bet the owner's of Haspin would make It happen for us with a little beggin.

Raffa, that's a good way to make a 87-89 R cylinder run without re-sleeving. Even If It Is a Yamaha part In there :Bounce

oldsking86

11-29-2006, 12:32 AM

Looks sick Billy, geesh if I bring my R I won't stand a chance :lol: I'm all stock for now but mods are in plan for the new year :twisted:

Pete

11-29-2006, 12:39 AM

HondaHarry

11-29-2006, 01:47 AM

looking good billy. youre not messing around are you? LOL HH

SYKO

11-29-2006, 09:12 AM

sick wicked man!!! cant wait to get my CR motored flat tracker, going to SPANK THAT A55!!! lol, oops I meen spank the quads:w00t:

Billy Golightly

11-29-2006, 09:54 AM

Thanks guys, I can't wait to get this thing dialed in and running. I've spent WAY to much money on it but it should be reliable for the long haul. I'd love to see an oval at Haspin, not sure how long it'd stay smooth with the idiots on big 4x4s and trucks that would no doubt get on it though...

Lomax

11-29-2006, 11:03 AM

Glad you are getting it back together, you should have give me shout on some of those part, I could have pprolly saved you a little money Im sure. It ought to to haul for sure (like it didnt before ;) ) Have fun with it.

Yamahondaman

11-29-2006, 11:22 AM

I'd love to see an oval at Haspin, not sure how long it'd stay smooth with the idiots on big 4x4s and trucks that would no doubt get on it though...
IDIOT'S !!! ........ I Agree !! :lol:

atctim

11-29-2006, 12:58 PM

Has anyone mentioned it to Pete at Haspin yet??? there is a nice big flat spot between the drag strip and the little MX track that looks like it could accomodate it. We should get serious about a flat track this year at TF!!!!

BTW Billy - you do awesome work!! Looks great. And about that Horizontal suspension geometery - can't wait to see you make it happen. Billy - you are Always thinking!

Kintore

11-29-2006, 01:00 PM

Yah for sure tim, I would love that. Flat track! :w00t:

Billy Golightly

11-29-2006, 07:07 PM

I don't think anyone has mentioned it to Pete, I guess it couldn't hurt to see what he says.

Yamahondaman

11-29-2006, 07:11 PM

HUMMMM ...I Dunno ??..... no running water...no A/C Power,ETC ....
I Don't think he will do it ? he's like ..... "Pay Here" !!! Thank You ..... :D

Jason Hall

11-29-2006, 07:13 PM

Heck yea someone need's to talk to them about It, I'm sure they would do It for us. If Billy, Tim sr & Howdy talk to them I bet they would.

What pipe are ya gunna run on the flat tracker Billy?

Yamahondaman

11-29-2006, 07:16 PM

I HOPE he run's the PT High Rev !!! it's ONLY ...... "Money" !!! :naughty:

Billy Golightly

11-29-2006, 07:19 PM

Yeah I've got an FMF on it now...I'll eventually get an ESR or a PT high rev when the funds are available again :lol:

BTW, Pete doesnt own Haspin he just manages it. From what I understand it sold 1-2 years ago and I guess the new owner is a little bit of a cheapskate compared to the old one :(

Klondike1020

11-29-2006, 07:25 PM

Wicked build that motor is all fire and brimstone
Mucho Preps cant wait to see your suspension inovations

Flat track at TF would be wild
Maybe if they convince The management up at HASPIN that a lot more people would show for flat track races ... either way im already anticipatin TF07

Yamahondaman

11-29-2006, 07:57 PM

Billy .... You CAN'T Run That FMF "Thing" on the 265 !!!
i can get a P/T High Rev to use if needed !!! :naughty:

Billy Golightly

11-29-2006, 08:03 PM

Dang man I just spent my last $100 on welding torch accessories this afternoon to finish up Louise Meilke's tripple clamps :lol: Down to $65 between my bank account and wallet. But let me know and maybe I can sell a kidney or something haha

Yamahondaman

11-29-2006, 08:06 PM

Well ............ it's on the 105 MPH 250 i built for "WILDMAN" ..the guy in the "Vid" with the Coon Tail on his Yellow Helmet .... he sold the bike and it has been sitting for TWO YEARS !!!!! i'm fixen to "Brapp" it !!! :naughty:
thats the one i have "Lead" in the Crank and the P/T is CHROME !!! :beer

wheelie king

11-29-2006, 08:07 PM

2 words- Sperm bank. You need money? Go for it......

Between that and giving blood, You could be a major shareholder in Honda Motor Co.

I heard that if a woman donates an egg from her uterus, it is worth $5000. Using that logic, for a sperm bank, I have a sock in my bedroom that is worth $300,000!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Pete

11-29-2006, 08:08 PM

how about dune drag racing at Silver Lake instead of Haspin? :D

Yamahondaman

11-29-2006, 08:16 PM

Silver Lake ??..........
hey Billy !!! ... we can go there and Bring Home the $$$ !!!! :lol:
Hey Wheelie king ... i got's LOT'S of them Sock's !!! :naughty:

Billy Golightly

11-29-2006, 08:20 PM

Brapp it, LMFAO. Ronnie you better be careful sayin stuff like that!

And Greg your a crazy mofo, hahaha. The next time I see you infront of some of your friends I'm gonna ask you about that 401k stock errr sock bahahaha.

Yamahondaman

11-29-2006, 08:27 PM

Ha Ha hA .......... Brapp it.... is "No Name" .... It's Legal !! :naughty:
It's the Internet !! TYPE IT !!! :w00t:

Jason Hall

11-29-2006, 08:46 PM

Yamahondaman, I don't know about takin home the money from MI :beer there's alot of fast ride's up here. With a machine shop on almost every street makin part's for the big 3. There's alot of smart machinist's like yourself. The problem I have found Is they are'nt afraid to spend the big money to go crazy fast.

Billy, there Is no comparison between the Pt high rev & the fmf. The Pt kill's It.

Pete

11-29-2006, 09:30 PM

Silver Lake ??..........
hey Billy !!! ... we can go there and Bring Home the $$$ !!!! :lol:
Hey Wheelie king ... i got's LOT'S of them Sock's !!! :naughty:

Sand Dunes in Michigan, I see alot of trike guys there in the summer. I go there a couple times a summer usually.

Louis Mielke

01-05-2007, 11:24 PM

Well!!!1 RIDE REPORT!!!?!?!?!!!

Billy Golightly

01-05-2007, 11:30 PM

Still dialing in. Was planning on doing this weekend but it looks like we have rain scheduled saturday and sunday :(

oldsking86

01-05-2007, 11:57 PM

Yep I was going to go with my neighbor ( he knows the owner of the track, working on his bikes right now lol) but rain is coming looks like, not cool. The 20th bette cool and clear because it's going to be a hell of a race!

Billy Golightly

01-12-2007, 02:48 PM

Well heres the story. I've been having hell trying to get the engine jetted right, finally decided yesterday afternoon after going through about every jet from 165 through 190 that i should check the reeds. Turns out the brand new Byesen carbon fiber pedals had a 1/4 inch gap in the them from the cage:confused: I flipped them over and took it for a test ride, ran 100% better. Made a lap and a half around my practice track and it started sputtering and then died. Before I coasted to a stop I pop started it, and it cranked right back up and then I idled back to the shop. I suspected that these reeds were some how seriously defective and that they had already been bent back out of shape. I pulled the intake and found the reeds were still in fine shape, but instead a piece of steel was laying in the intake, the side of the piston was all scuffed up and the corner of the boost port in the piston was wollered out. I was seriously dissapointed at this point because of the race next weekend. I popped the head and found the exhaust and transfer areas to be in good shape but the intake side was terrible looking, almost like it had cold seized and I had in fact figured thats what happened.

It got dark so I didn't pull the cylinder till today. I got it off the piston and was looking around when I found this. What in the hell are the chances of that happening? Has to be rarer then rare... I don't have any cylinders to go back on that I can use so what I'm gonna try and do is redneck it and bevel the sharp places out, sand the scuffs off the piston and cyl wall with fine grit sand paper best as I can and put it back together, hope it holds together this weekend. It ran when I parked it and the end of the rings does not come together there so maybe it will be OK temporarily.

edog

01-12-2007, 02:57 PM

Thats some odd *Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited* right there.Sorry to read about this.

Maybe somebody on the boards can help you.

BigGreenMachine

01-12-2007, 03:29 PM

Your going to run it like that Billy? You know thats not gonna last and probably ruin more then whats already done.

I think you should curb your enthusiasm and hold off until the cylinder is resleeved or a replacement can be had.

Just my opinion.

Louis Mielke

01-12-2007, 04:02 PM

man billy thats one tough break.

SYKO

01-12-2007, 04:42 PM

man WTF!!! are you kidding me!!!! get the other R set up for next weekend!! pull the trx motor!!! how tha hell did that heppen!!!

Billy Golightly

01-12-2007, 06:03 PM

Well heres some pictures of the "repair" I've tried to make. A guy that races in the SFTL said he might have a spare cylinder he could sell with a piston to get me going again. I sent him a PM.

I was just looking at this though, you know, I dont think the rings go that low. If they dont, then I don't see how it would cause that much of a problem ramping it like I did...

Bryan Raffa

01-12-2007, 06:21 PM

OOOF! you should be able to sand off the rest of that alum. build up on the piston,

Billy Golightly

01-12-2007, 06:26 PM

Workin on it with a razor blade right now ;)

Jason Hall

01-12-2007, 07:31 PM

Billy I'm sorry to say this but I would not waiste your time with that cylinder at all. The piston Is changing direction at that point of the cylinder & will push that piece back out & you will have the same trouble again. It might take the crank out this time, not worth It. I have a cylinder you can borrow If you want. I ported this one for brandon 3leggedog, he though he had a long rod motor but It was a short rod. I really took alot of time on It & wow It's BAD ASS. All you need Is to PM me your address & bore It .040. & get a piston.

slothminx

01-12-2007, 07:36 PM

Oh man that SUCKS!, Looks like the sleeve just got a tad thin in that place.

Im agreeing with jason here, anyway you dont want to take out the rest of the cylinder, at least at the moment you could get it resleeved.

you havent had much luck with these R's.. maybe you should go back to Tri-z :lol:;)

Billy Golightly

01-12-2007, 08:18 PM

Jason I really appreciate the offer man but I don't have time to get anything bored or order a new piston. If I did I wouldn't have messed with this thing. :( Thanks though.

I've checked the cylinder and the rings do not come down that far. The 85-86 cylinders don't have anything there at all bridge wise so I dont think lack of support is a real big issue. If the rings were passing over that spot I'd say there is a good chance it'll snag whats left of the sleeve and rip it out but they don't. I'm gonna bolt it back up this weekend and run it as little as possible until the race. I'm comitted to be there and if it goes, its going on the track.

Louis Mielke

01-12-2007, 08:31 PM

Now thats a man dedicated to his racing. Go get em billy.

I got dibs on whatever parts you clean up off the track....

J/K!!

Yamahondaman

01-12-2007, 08:59 PM

HUMMMM ....... looks SCARY to me ... try it and ........."PRAY" !!!!!

Bryan Raffa

01-12-2007, 09:47 PM

god speed buddy! Give em Hell!!

x.system

01-12-2007, 10:30 PM

Better wear extra padding just in case that thing locks up and spits you off, high side style. Hope it holds together for you but theres no way I would trust it, not at those speeds. Run it through a couple heat cycles and look in the intake and see if its wearing. If it goes its going to get the crank and probably both case halves at the minimum.

bushwacker51

01-12-2007, 11:44 PM

I dont claim to be an expert but I will advise you not to run that cylinder or piston like that. I dont know why your motor grenaded like that but it did and you need to fix it correctly. I know some people that can rig things back together and get away with it. I was never one of those people. If I would try to do what your are describing the whole motor would blow up and I would have about 50 cents worth of scrape aluminum. Good luck also did you check your ring gap when you put the new piston in ? Glenn O.

Xowner

01-13-2007, 12:35 AM

billy i still got the like 40 over jug with new piston and bore!!!!!!

Billy Golightly

01-13-2007, 12:59 AM

Well maybe I ought to just cut both bridges completely out and make it like an 85-86 cylinder?!?

oldsking86

01-13-2007, 01:02 AM

Ouch man, hope you can make it out next weekend.. Be cautious with it Billy..
That's why I need a spare bike I'd hate to put such a strain on my R and if sometihng like this were to happen I'd be searhcing for parts and have a bike that was unable to ride.. Get er going!! Racing is right around the corner

Jason Hall

01-13-2007, 11:26 AM

Billy that would probly work. If I were you I would do just what you said & cut Em out. Excellent Idea. Give the back port a nice lead on the top & call It good.

Xowner

01-14-2007, 01:59 PM

billy never heard back from yah you just gonna use your jug???

Billy Golightly

01-14-2007, 02:24 PM

Yeah, I don't have the right spacer plate. I put it back together this morning and have ran it quite a little before lunch. Idled perfectly and everything. I took it for a test ride then and it was doing real shitty in the top end range, popping and backfiring sometimes like it had been doing before. I ran it about 3 laps like that trying to see if it would get better and it didn't. I started heading back up to the house and white smoke started rolling out of it, and about 2 seconds later I got the ever loving *Edited**Edited**Edited**Edited* zapped out of me right through the handle bars. Like the kinda zap you get holding onto a spark plug. We pulled it back over to the shop and I guess I've decided I've got some kind of an electrical gremlin(Like I needed anymore problems :rolleyes:)so I'm gonna go back over in a few and check the electrical system and try swapping everything over from the 86 and see what happens.

Xowner

01-14-2007, 03:43 PM

check your teather cord first

SYKO

01-14-2007, 04:11 PM

man I totaly connot believe all the probs you are having with your motor!! hopefully you will get everyhting figured out!!!

Billy Golightly

01-14-2007, 04:49 PM

Bah tell me about it. My wiring harness underneath the loom and tape is a hacked together mess, theres like 10 splices. The one on the 86, after a little bit of a closer look doesnt seem to be much better off. Screwed every direction I turn.

Xowner

01-14-2007, 06:24 PM

BILLY REWIRE IT!!!!!! it shouldnt be that hard!!!!

Yamahondaman

01-14-2007, 06:28 PM

GIT IT RAG !!!
Seems like you have a PULTERGEIST or somethen up there ? spelling ???
Hey Billy ... Here's a Pic of the TRI-Z MiniCooler in the "WERKS" !!! :naughty:

Billy Golightly

01-14-2007, 06:33 PM

I'm planning on it but the only thing is I don't know if anything else is wrong like the stator, flywheel, coil, CDI, pickup coil, etc.

Yamahondaman

01-14-2007, 06:36 PM

Take all that mess off your other "R" and check it ...

SYKO

01-14-2007, 11:16 PM

damn billy I think I have a compete harness thats in good shape but wont be able to check it till tomoorow

Billy Golightly

01-14-2007, 11:22 PM

Check and leme know, I'm gonna try and hack this one back together tomorrow and run a test with a timing light once everything is back together and see if I can figure out if I've possibly got somethign thats throwing my timing out of whack after its in a certain RPM range. dunno what that white smoke I had going on was either...

200x Basket

01-14-2007, 11:29 PM

white smoke is water

SYKO

01-14-2007, 11:30 PM

I will look in the morning and PM you, I may be in valdosta tomorrow so I may be able to take it down there, also the white smoke can only be one thing, COOLENT.

Billy Golightly

01-15-2007, 11:24 PM

Well I condensed my wiring harness by a lot. Zero provisions for headlight or tail light anymore. I also swapped the wires around for my kill switch, as suggested by raffa. I've ran it some but its burning tons and tons and tons of white smoke, bad head gasket. I also hooked a timing light up to it, and it seems to be staying on the "F" mark on the flywheel pretty well. I'm gonna change the headgasket tomorrow and give it some time to warm up and then really rip on it and see if the timing stays in spec or not. Atleast I dont have a deadline for this weekend anymore.

Bryan Raffa

01-15-2007, 11:36 PM

your not gettin a shock any more through the bars?

Billy Golightly

01-16-2007, 12:13 AM

Not from what I ran it today, no.

Billy Golightly

01-16-2007, 02:17 PM

Well I just changed the head gasket and its still smoking like a mofo, I think I have a bad crank seal :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: I haven't checked the trans level yet but I'm sure it'll be lower then it was. This thing is an endless pile of crap so far. For all the good things I hear about 250R motors reliability I'm not impressed at all. Although, I'm sure some of it can be attributed to my newbness putting it together:rolleyes: I'm about | | that close to pulling this thing out and ditching it for an old reliable cr500 motor.

200x Basket

01-16-2007, 02:27 PM

cr500 flat tracker!! hell yes!!!!!!!!!!

hrc85250r

01-16-2007, 02:32 PM

oldsking86

01-16-2007, 02:41 PM

hrc85250r I SOOOO WANT THAT SIDE COVER!!! Looks freaking sweet! How'd that come about?

Yea Billy this motor has given you nothing but problems, to get going I recommend a CR cylinder also, and hell you have a CR500 get that sucker going and you should freaking rip on the flats!

SYKO

01-16-2007, 02:52 PM

hey hrc, dosnt putting the cr cyl on the atc botome end require a bit of machining, if so please elaborate on this, I can get a complete 89 cr motor, I as of yet dont know the condition of the internals but I do know it turns over well, also any links to the site you are taling about for te pv covers, aslo is the pv removed completely?

atcfreak85

01-16-2007, 02:55 PM

Yea where did you get that case cover? Can you post a link to the site please? :naughty: :w00t:

hrc85250r

01-16-2007, 03:30 PM

the company with the clautch cover is www.directdrivecnc.net, it is a lockup clutch for drags only, you cant ride around with it, i will break the pressure plate and/or the lockup itself, but im pretty sure you could just order the cover if you wanted too. and skyolincoln, no, the cr cylinder requires no modification to anything, it will bolt directly on, although you will need the CR cylinder studs for the bottom end because the stockers are about half as tall as they need to be, you also it needs to be a 86-91 CR250 cylinder, which you already have access to as you said above, but like i said, you need the powervalve block offs and the exhaust manifold. you cant just leave the powervalves in, they need to be removed and the block offs installed and blended into the ports, this will act like the powervalves are always open, which will give you a bit less bottom end, but crazyass topend and in conjunction with a real aftermarket ignition(like a pvl) will rev until you let off the throttle. you can get all of the parts from FTZ racing.if you arent good at porting and/or port modification i recommend having someone good at that stuff do the powervalve block offs cause you can reall mess them up. just the cylinder alone will give you quite a few more horses but you will lose a good amount of torque, so dont plan on using this motor as a trail motor because it wont be as fun as a nicely done stock cylinder.

hrc85250r

01-16-2007, 03:33 PM

i do want to note to those of you that want that cover it sticks out pretty far, thats why i have the brake lever under the footpeg, the stock one wont really work.

Billy Golightly

01-16-2007, 03:44 PM

hey just to let you know, that cylinder was sleeved, and it looked thin, which im sure it was if it was bored to a 270. thats what happened to your cylinder, it was sleeved and bored thin. remember that most people that run motors with those yz pistons have a few backup motors and they are intended for racing and being ripped apart/ completely rebuilt every few hours. if you dont warm up a sleeved motor bored thin sometimes it can cause the sleeve to shift also. i have had this happen on a few of my drag motors, until i went to cr cylinders and just ran NiCom. it sounds like you are looking for a mildly ported riding cylinder not a full race like you have. if you are running flat track, i recommend going with a cr setup like i have they are more commonly used for flat track/tt than drags due to how high they rev and how high up the power band is. i think a cr cylinder with just cleanup port work will be exactly what you are looking for. they are reliable and bolt on, all you need is a exhaust flange and powervalve plugs, you can get both at FTZ, plus they look crazy.

It was still a stock Honda sleeve. Had 88 and HB9 product code stamped into it. I've been very cautious about warming this thing up and always wait until the pipe is hot enough I can't hold my hand on it till I go above half throttle. The chip out of the sleeve I think was just kind of a freak accident that happened, not much can be done about it. I'm just so disappointed, and disgusted with how everything has worked out on it. For the money I have in this I could had a freshly rebuilt CR500 motor with a carb and maybe even a pipe.