Still Having Problems with 110 Dying..UPDATE..IT RUNS!

[bigreddaddy]

The 1980 110 I'm working on is still giving me problems. It will run for a few minutes then die.
Here is what I did today.

Took carb off, cleaned petcock, filter (petcock was very dirty), o ring, bowl, etc. I didn't clean the jets as I just cleaned them a few weeks ago and haven't really been running it (trying though!). I put a new foam air filter and sprayed with K&N filter oil. The old air filter was very dirty (carbon).
I took the plug out and cleaned it up. It keeps getting very black carbon on it. I put some more fresh gas in the tank. I ran it with the cap on and off.
It will run for a few minutes then die like it is running out of gas. I even tried the reserve position. I have 2 inline filters from the tank to the petcock. Plently of gas in them when it dies.
I adjusted the low speed jet (?), the one right next to the air screw, and the air screw also. I can get it to idle great, but no matter what setting it still dies after a few minutes.
I checked the throttle slide to make sure it was in the right way, the clip is in the middle position.
Also, when sitting with the fuel ON it will start dripping gas out of the overflow tube. I turn the gas off it stops.
I even checked for air leaks using wd40 and nothing, no leaks.

Advice PLEASE!

[dufrain]

Sounds like you float is either sticking or has a hole in it.Take it off and shake it ,I had one withthe float full o gas.After it dies check the spark to rule out the ignition having problems.Make sure you choke is open to .

[Vealmonkey]

Sounds like your slow speed jet is too large for the engine. If you have smaller jets, try a smaller jet. Some people drill jets out so don't depend 100% on the jet size listed on the jet. Did you get a rebuld kit for the carb? If not I would say you probably need a smaller slow speed jet. The deposit on your spark plug is either oil or unburnt fuel. Does the black on the sparkplug look shiny or dull? Shiny black, excess fuel. If it is sort of dull black than it would probably be oil. You aren't using premix fuel are you? I knew someone that filled their tank with premix fuel and couldn't figure out why the trike smoked like a steam engine and kept fouling plugs.

[bigreddaddy]

I'm going to take the carb off tomorrow and check the float and check/clean the jets. I do have a rebuild kit for it, and I'll check the slow jet.
The spark plug is dull black, so oil. I guess that means its running rich? No I don't have any premix in the tank.
Thanks for the help so far.

[jason 32]

you need to clean the carb --- blow out the jets/ air orfices with a air compresser
soak the carb first, be sure to remove all the rubber parts, clean out the tank!!
i had that problem - even with a filter it still got clogged up.
you might need to coat the inside of the tank

[dufrain]

You will know if its burning oil it will stink and blow out blue smoke.It sounds like its running rich = too much fuel.Or stick you finger in the tailpipe ,if its greasy you have an oil burner, if its black sooty dry its running way rich.Another thing is that k and n filter oil is for gauze, k and n filters, Im not sure how good it will work on a foam filter.Its possible you could have gotten too much oil on the filter ,that can choke the motor and run it rich also.The specs for the air screw and other setting is on the home page.I would check the float for leaks,clean the pilot jet with spray carb cleaner and a wire from a wire brush if its clogged.Then make sure the choke is open and try it without the air filter.Set that air screw to the specs to, and it should run.

[bigreddaddy]

It's not burning oil. I know it is running rich as a few times pegging the throttle in blew out a little black smoke, and it fouls the plug with black, dry soot. I have set the adjustments per the manual with the same outcome.
As for the tank, it is plastic but I'm sure could use a real good cleaning. I've even cleaned the gas cap twice and ran it with on and off.
When I took the lines of the tank it poured gas, real good stream. The same thing when taking the lines off on the carb side.
I don't think it is the ignition because it will crank right up after dying. Sometimes it might take a few pulls, but usually first or second. But I will keep that in mind after going through the carb again.
It seems to me everything is pointing to the carb itself.
Oh by the way. This problem didn't start after the the air filter change. When I took the old filter off it was falling apart and very, very black/dirty.
The K&N oil sprayed on the new filter just right. After spraying I squeezed it real hard and nothing came out like it did when I used regular motor oil on my 250es filter. I think it will be an excellent air filter oil.

Its got air, good gas flow, and fire. It cranks up, runs good for about 2-3 minutes then dies. There are no air leaks that I can find. So something in that carb isn't doing its job. I'm agreeing with who suggested its the float. Unless it does turn out to be an ignition problem.

But anyway, thanks for all of the replies and feel free to keep them coming.

[dufrain]

Yep it sure sounds like the float since it sounds like you have the air filter and everything else sorted.My float was so full that it wouldnt make much of a slosh sound.Inspect it real good,maybe try floating it in a bucket.

[bigreddaddy]

I guess I'm going to need some atc110 experts here.

I installed the carb kit after cleaning out the whole carb again including petcock. I filled the bowl up with cleaner to check and see if the float actually floats. It does, no leaks.
After going through the manual again it turns out the two adjusting screws are the throttle stop screw and the pilot screw. So I may have been adjusting wrong.
So I tried adjusting one more time after reading the manual with no success.
Also, the bowl still leaks gas when in the RUN position and the motor off even after installing a new float needle and o-ring.

Can it still be the float? I don't see why it still leaks out of the overflow tube. Damn!!

ANY ideas will be appreciated AS I am getting very frustrated.

[dufrain]

Which tube is leaking,If its the bottom one ,thats the bowl drain.You shut it off with the screw on the bottom of the bowl.I have a 70 that wouldnt quit leaking so I epoxied the nipple shut.The screw with the spring on the side of the carb is the idle.The little flush screw is the idle mixture screw.

[bigreddaddy]

Yes, the bottom tube. It's the overflow tube so I don't want to epoxy it. It only leaks with the motor off and the petcock in the RUN position. Why I don't know. I just now checked the screw on the bowl to see if it was tightened down and it was. I opened it a little and it started to drain gas out of the bowl, so I tightened it back up and it stopped. So its working correctly.

I need to find out why the carb is overflowing when its not running. I'm thinking whatever it is, is also causing the motor to quit after a couple of minutes which is my main problem.

[dufrain]

That bottom tube that shuts off with the screw isnt an overflow,just a drain.,It probably only leaks when not running because thew motor is using enough to suck it away from that hose.try running it with a small screw stuck in the end of that hose to block it off.

I just went out and looked at mine.The bowl drain screw for the bottom hose is located on the right hand side of the carb while sitting on it.Thats only a drain ,the only overflow or vent hose is beside the idle speed screw with the spring on the left side of the carb.The idle mixture screw that is flush is on the right side next to the intake mounting flange toward the front of the carb.

[Erics350x]

if the gas cap isnt venting like it should it'll cause the exact same symptoms. try removing the cap and running it. also try setting the float in a bowl of water or gas for a hour or so to find out if it leaks. if one side sinks you know you need a new float.

[bigreddaddy]

I'll try the screw and see what happens. Eric, I've already tried it w/cap on/off. I can try letting it float longer.
BUT, after going through the Haynes manual once again, they had the damn schematics for the 70cc carn and 110cc carb backwards! Dammit. I've been looking at the wrong schematic, no wonder things didn't add up.
But what really has me thinking now, since I was looking at the right schematic, is I don't know if my carb has the Needle Jet! It shows it to be the first one into the carb, then the jet holder, then the main jet all inline. Well I don't remember seeing the Needle Jet when I pulled those jets out to replace them. After putting the new jets in, I noticed that there was a piece left over that really didn't look like a regular jet. I did this very carefully and one at a time. If the old Needle Jet is in there it must be stuck.
So I'm definitely going to check it out tomorrow.

If the Needle Jet isn't there, then there is nowhere for the Jet Needle thats in the slide to go, right? Making it run very rich. This would explain it cutting out after idling I think.

[dufrain]

I will get one out tommorow and look it over and see if I can help figure this out.

[dufrain]

Here is the right breakdown for you http://houseofmotorcycles.bikebandit.com/partsbandit/oem_schematic_view~schem_dept_id~169038~section_de pt_id~1~section_dept_name~OEM+%28Stock%29+Parts~de pt_type_id~2~model_dept_year~1980~model_dept_mfr~H onda~model_dept_id~168577~model_dept_name~ATC110.a sp

[bigreddaddy]

Ok, I didn't know the needle went all the way to the main jet. But it does show a Needle JET that goes in the carb, then the jet holder, then the main jet. All in the same hole in the carb.
I'm not talking about the Jet Needle that is in the slide. I know its confusing but one jet is referred to as the NEEDLE JET, and the needle that is in the slide is referred to as the JET NEEDLE.
The NEEDLE JET would be the first thing the JET NEEDLE (in slide) will pass through according to the diagram.

The first jet in the MAIN JET lineup is the Needle Jet. This is the one that I think is not in there. Like I said, the new carb kit came with one, but I didn't find the original Needle JET that is supposed to be there according the Haynes Manual atc110 carb schematic/diagram.

[bigreddaddy]

Jet labeled #2 in that diagram right under the float is the one I am saying that is not in my carb. I'm not 100% sure but I will find out tomorrow hopefully.

[dufrain]

If that needle jets not in there the jet needle couldnt meter any fuel so I bet that would be it.Most 2 stroke carbs just have the main jet and the jet needle slides in it or pretty close to it.

[NewOldSchool]

check your compression......my110 was running great after i did a rebuild

[bigreddaddy]

This is what I did today. I finally found that there was a spring that was missing in the slide/needle assembly. It is the V shaped spring that apparently holds the needle down so it will stay in position. The new carb kit had this spring which I installed.

Now I can get it to idle but only with the Choke ON. Also, it seems now that the carb stopped leaking gas out of the drain tube while left in the RUN position with the motor not running.

I have messed with the 2 adjustment screws and can't get it to idle without the choke ON.
I have tried the settings per the manual and adjusted from there. I also tried it with the gas cap on and off.
Also, before installing the spring I had moved the needle clip UP one position since it has been running rich.

Any suggestions? Also, when looking at the diagram for the carb using the link posted above (which is exactly like the manual I have) it seems to show the slide going into the carb backwards. It seems to me the right way is for the side of the slide with the groove all of the way down the side should be installed on the side of the carb where the little metal piece is closer to the top. The other side of the slide has a grove closer to the bottom where the idle screw goes in.

Please look at the diagram and see if you understand what I'm saying.

I really appreciate the help.

Edit: I just checked to see if it was leaking before posting this and it IS still leaking while left in the RUN position and the motor OFF.

[dufrain]

The wide groove on the slide is the one that goes toward the idle speed screw.I am pretty sure the slide will only go all the way down in the right position.
If you are having to run it with the choke on it is running too lean, the pilot jet must be plugged up.The pilot jet is where the gas comes from for it to idle.It is the smallest jet that is sunk down in the carb body.

That bottom hose that is leaking is not an overflow like on other carbs,its just a bowl drain for when you drain the carb for storage.Just put a screw in the end of the hose if you dont want to epoxy it shut like I did.It doesnt mean your float is sticking.

[dufrain]

The slow jet is #29 in the picture

[bigreddaddy]

I don't see how the slow jet would be plugged up as I have just cleaned the whole carb twice, and running filters on the petcock. But I guess I'll check it again.
Also, the slide does not close all the way. It stays about 1/4" with no throttle. To me if that was a problem it would be idling very high?
I just finished running it for about 15 minutes with the choke OFF but having to constantly give it throttle to stay running. Adjusted and adjusted and still won't idle.
I pulled the plug just now and it still black and dry like it is still running rich.

[dufrain]

Try taking that air filter off and see how it runs.Are you sure you have the slide in there with the wide slot toward the idle speed screw.The one with the spring on it.Try turning that idle speed screw in until the spring is all the way compressed and see if it speeds up the idle.Are you certain the choke butterfly is opening,its on a spring ,its not a regular solid shaft like some other carbs.Its possible its not moving when you move the choke handle.

[dufrain]

It sure sounds to me like an air restriction somewhere the more I think about it.If it were mine I would pull off that aire box so you can see the choke open and close and run it and see how it does.It will be as lean as it can get that way.

[bigreddaddy]

It's dark now so I'll get on it again in the morning. I know for sure the choke is working right. I had the carb off several times today and checked the choke. The slide is in right too. Your right about it only fitting one way. I just tried it when I had it off to make sure.
I have tried turning both screws all the way in and out and it's really not affecting it too much.
Seems like since I put the new jets and pilot and air screws in the carb, not it won't idle. Before it would idle and run fine for about 2 minutes then die.
I also put a screw in the drain hose. I guess I'll pull it off tomorrow and check the jets and maybe put the old one's back. Man this is really aggravating.
I thought for sure once I found out that the V looking spring wasn't even in the slide holding down the needle that once I put it in that be the problem.

[bigreddaddy]

What about the air vent tube on the choke side of the carb? I have put my finger on it while running to see if it would change anything and it had no effect. Could this be a problem?

[dufrain]

Man I sure cant figure out why its running rich.try running it without that air filter tommorrow and see what that does.I would stick those old jets back in there to as long as they are clean they will be ok.

[dufrain]

I would stick the little tube of a carb cleaner can in it and blast some carb cleaner throught it with the slide out so you can be sure its not plugged.Just squirt the cleaner in while you look down the top of the carb to see its clear..

[bigreddaddy]

Well now that you said that, I remember doing it already. I'll just tear down the carb again and go through it, replace the jets, then throw it against the house a couple of times. JK.
I'll try it without the airbox too. I really appreciate your help man.

[bigreddaddy]

I'm about to get started with this 110 but have question about the "V" or "W" shaped spring that is shown in the diagram above the needle clip, above the slide.
Like I already stated, this spring was not in the slide until I put the one that came with the carb kit in it.
The manual doesn't show how to install this spring so I figured it should go down the slide on top of the needle and clip to hold the them in place.

Is this correct?

[Vealmonkey]

Yes, that is right about the spring holding the needle and clip in place. I've found sometimes, that if people have turned in the fuel\air screw in as hard as they could, it sometimes enlarges that port to the point where you no longer have any adjustment for the air\fuel. It basicall means that the carb is shot and will have to be replaced with a better used carb.

[bigreddaddy]

Thanks for the reply. Now I'm going to go re-check every darn thing that has something to do with fuel and air.
I do think the throttle cable may need to be replaced. There is no play at the thumb lever, and the adjusting piece on the other end on top of the carb looks like it has never been moved since 1980. But I don't think that is my main problem as it should be idling very high if it were.
I do have 2 other carbs that are in rough shape but if I can't get this thing running right today I'm going to try another carb.

I'll post an update later. Thanks again for all the help.

[dufrain]

On the slide it should go ,needle and clip,then the washer like piece if it has one,then that w spring thing seated in the slot in the slide.

[bigreddaddy]

Well there isn't a washer, and I thought it might need to go in the slot in the slide somehow but I wasn't sure. So I just put inside the slide and pushed it down on top of the clip/needle.

I took the carb off and went through the whole thing. Checked the float, float needle (new) and seat.
Comparing the old and new slow jets, the new jet's hole is very, very small. It was a LOT smaller than the old slow jet, so I put the old one back in.
I cranked it up, it idles again but does the same thing as before. Quits after a minute or two.
I took the air box off. It seemed to idle better and longer, but still quit. I took the air filter off. Same thing.
It will run/idle great for about a minute then rev up a little then quit. It still leaks gas when left in the RUN position with the motor off.
When I had the carb off I took the intake off and made sure the O ring was good and checked gaskets.
I even adjusted the throttle cable a little so there is a little bit of play at the thumb lever.
Dammit! I don't understand why it will run for a minute then quit. I have checked everything I can think of.

[bigreddaddy]

Now that I think of it, there is a washer (not metal) that was in the cap of the carb above the long coil spring.
Would it make a difference if I put that wasker in, then the W shaped spring on top of it? I'm not sure how the W spring is supposed to fit in the slide/groove.

[slothminx]

You tried taking the gas cap off just as its about to quit? sounds like its not venting.

[bigreddaddy]

One more question. On the intake manifold, on the carb side there is a regular gasket and a plastic spacer shaped just like the gasket.
Should there also be a spacer on the other end of the manifold that connects to the motor? Because all I have is a gasket on the engine side.
I was thinking if there is supposed to be a spacer on that side, that the carb would be tilting towards the front of the bike, not keeping the fuel level right in the bowl.

[bigreddaddy]

You tried taking the gas cap off just as its about to quit? sounds like its not venting.


No, not when it was about to quit. But I have ran it with the cap off.

[bigreddaddy]

I give up. I'm going try another carb. I just don't get it. I even changed out the damn drain screw, still leaks gas. Still runs for a minute then dies. Cap off, cap on. Has spark, gas and air. Good compression.
It seems like whatever controls the gas just isn't working. I've put off working on my big red because I thought I could get this one completed quicker.

I just don't understand, that is seems like its running the gas out of the bowl, then quits, but it will start leaking gas out of the bowl drain.

[bigreddaddy]

Well I just had to check one more thing. I had cleaned the screen in the petcock several times, but I just took it out and ran it with the gas cap off, and it still died after about 2 minutes of idling.

Anyone keeping up with this very long thread and has an idea, PLEASE let me know.

[bigreddaddy]

Finally! Damn. I got it running right this morning:w00t: :w00t: .

The first thing I did was put the filter screen back in the petcock. Pulled it over wouldn't start. Checked plug and it was wet with gas. Let the gas out of the drain and pulled on it a few times without the plug in. Still wouldn't start. Cleaned plug, same steps, nothing.
I decided to switch the gas lines around on the petcock. I also took the plug out of my parts 110 and stuck it in. Cranked right up and stayed running.
I don't have any filters in the plastic tank so I never bothered switching the lines before, thinking the tubes in the tank were about the same size.
It also stopped leaking gas. It's smoking some, mostly white from what I can tell. Doesn't smell like burnt oil to me. I'm pretty sure its running rich. It is supposed to have had a new top end done from a shop about 2 years ago.
Has pretty good power to haul my big ass 270 pounds around the yard. HIGH gears don't seem to work. When I switch it to HIGH it just sits there, won't move. It's not that big a deal for now, at least I have LOW and it stays running. Super wheelie machine.
And the lights work too. I knew the headlight worked but last night after taking the petcock screen out then firing it up I saw that the tail light works too.

FINALLY!!! Now I can get back to work on my 250es and get those new bearings, brakes and new brake cables on it.

Thanks again for all of your help. I know this was a very long thread but maybe it will help someone troubleshoot a problem their having.

[Vealmonkey]

As far as putting into high. On some of mine, I have had to try and rock the trike back and forth while trying to put the trike in HI, sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't. Good luck and congrats on getting it running.

[dufrain]

My 110 has to be rocked sometimes to.Do a compresssion test on it that will tell you how good the topend is.Tha smoke might be junk in the pipe from sitting and all that gas has probably washed down the cylinder walls so it might have to reseat a little.