View Full Version : '86 250R and '86 350X on dyno tonight....
The guys and I had a chance to baseline dyno these two machines tonight after work and the results were surprising.... (at least to us anyway) Both machines had the pulls done in third in an effort to save the engines, clutches and for my personal safety. (don't want any tires flying off at speed!)
One is my 1986 250R I just bought Saturday~ running on a mixture of stinky Torco pre-mix oil, 108 octane VP racing fuel and VP Nitro-Methane fuel mix. The only items not stock that I can see is that the airbox lid has been drilled, and it has a FMF fatty muffler/silencer combo. It's a pretty clean and strong machine...
The other is my 1986 350X I bought a while ago from a link on this board, running a completely stock set-up and VP 108 octane racing fuel. It's kinda tired...
I don't know how accurate the figures are, but I really don't care because I can still use this as *OUR* baseline so the power increase/decrease delta can be measured after future mods. :) Even if they only made 1 HP, we still had a ball doing it! :w00t:
Both of them held together believe it or not and the 250R made more power than we thought it would... The only bad part about this fuel mixture was that the dyno cell smelled like a Top-Fuel Dragster after pulling this thing, where our lips/mouth/eyes burned and were watering the whole time! :eek:
I also super-imposed my '85 350x dyno graph against the '86 just for comparison sake. Do these figures look even close to what you guys have seen around for either of these two machines? :wondering
Here's the fuel we used in the "R"... Good stuff. :beer
OldSchoolin86
10-03-2005, 10:29 PM
Thanks for the info fyi, the numbers look pretty good. Your right, no matter what it's a good baseline to work from. The only thing that concerned me was that the 250r didn't start pulling the front in 3rd untill you used the fun fuel. It should have done that on cheap pump gas and the FMF alone.
I agree with you oldschool....
When I first got it off the truck and rode it for the first time, it was a real slug with no real powerband hit. It looked as though the oil/fuel ratio was wayyyy rich on oil and the jetting was also wayyyy rich. Those combined made it feel real "soft" on the throttle. In fact it was o oil rich, there was a heavy oil sludge all over the header pipe from the engine "snotting" all over itself from over-oiling.
I think the combination of leaning out the oil mixture ratio with racing fuel and the addition of the oxygen-rich nitro methane, it leaned the engine out enough to where it would run right...
That nitro is some good stuff though, if you can stand the Top-Fuel stink everywhere you go.... :naughty:
bigyellow4x4
10-05-2005, 09:09 PM
how much nitro did you us in it?
bigyellow4x4
10-10-2005, 12:44 AM
thanks for the info if you were on if the jets how much biggger should one go?
Beats me, we never dug into it that far and proper jetting would be determined by exhaust air/fuel ratio.
Just wondering why you used the fuel you did as apposed to pump gas? They will both run on 87 just fine. What fuel do you use in them when you ride? I have seen cars run slower at the strip when using octane they didn't need.
The only bike i own that i run 110 torco in is my 350x, and that's 12:1
What was the ARF?
I chose to use race fuel because that is simply what I had on hand here....at the shop.....right at that time and the engine did respond favorably to it when added; hence it's continued use.
What was the ARF?
I assume you mean AFR? (air/fuel ratio...) As I stated in the post~ I had no idea what the AFR was at anytime we were running that fuel-mix and I really didn't care anyway... I was more curious to see how the engine responded to the unorthodox nitro-race fuel mixture I was running through it than anything.
If it blew up, so what~ I am building another new engine for it now anyway so it just didn't matter that much to me at that date and time.. I have quite a depth of parts here for all three of our ATV's/ATC's and machines to produce/machine/fabricate just about anything we want, for whatever we want~ so the fear of hurting engines just isn't there when we can repair/rebuild them easily and quickly. :)
hrc85250r
10-10-2005, 09:34 PM
well, i dont know why you used the race gas with a stock motor....you def lost hp with that...run premium pump gas and i bet you get a horse or two back...
Like I said, we really didn't care what it made or how it made it or if the stupid thing blew all over the shop... We were just curious to see how it would fair with that exotic fuel. If it only made 1 HP, that would have been fine for us as it was still fun doing it and we certainly have nothing to prove to ourselves or anyone else. :)
For us guys here, it's all about the fun, that's all...nothing else.
I almost think your taking offense to my and hrc85250r's posts about the fuel. I was just wondering if you had taken a reading because as you know. HP/TQ is quite affected by the afr. I thought you were looking for a baseline, but that is hard to get if the bikes are not optomised in the first place. As far as your extensive array of equipment and parts, they will not do you any good if the bike is not tuned to run right. Sorry for asking.
:lol: :lol:
You're incorrect.
Not taking offense at anything and why would I? As I've stated now 3 times, I have nothing to prove to anyone and I really don't care who agrees with me or not... We're doing this for ourselves and ourselves only, for fun and posting our results here for anyone to see if they are interested. If you don't like the way I do something, that's fine, I really just don't care, as this is my machine, not yours. If you like the results you see, that's fine too, but again, I really just don't care, it's still my machine, not yours.
I'm having fun doing this my own way and I'll not change those ways just because some total stranger on the internet says I'm "doing it wrong". I'm not trying to sell anything, I'm not trying to teach anyone anything and I'm not trying to change the world~ I'm just doing this for my own knowledge, right or wrong.
If I feel like testing this machine without an AFR sensor, I'll do it.. If it blows up, who cares.. If I want to test this on a car dyno where an ATC was never meant to be, I'll do it.. If I decide to test the machine on race gas instead of pump gas, I'll do that too~ because I could care less if the internet community agrees with me or not. I'm doing this for me, right or wrong and I'm not out to please or agree with anyone.
Since these machines were nearly stock, I didn't care what they did regarding power, or how it did it. When both of these machines are completed the way I want them in the Spring, they will have all of the technical knowledge we know here applied to them for optimum performance in regards to machining processes, port work on the flow bench and on the chassis dyno. Until then, we're just going at this to see what they will do.
If you agree with it, fine. If you don't agree with it, that's just fine with me too~ I just don't give a care either way. That's why we live in America. :)
Mr. Sandman
10-11-2005, 12:06 PM
Interesting info fyi, I like it. It's just too bad all the self proclaimed experts either can't read or understand your intentions and results (why didn't you do this? why didn't you do that? the results are skewed because of this! the results are skewed because of that!)
Interesting info fyi, I like it. It's just too bad all the self proclaimed experts either can't read or understand your intentions and results (why didn't you do this? why didn't you do that? the results are skewed because of this! the results are skewed because of that!)
Ok, what were the intentions then? If the intention was to get false reading then that was acomplished. These are not true readings period. No dyno tires, no afr reading. Using fuel with WAY too mutch octane. Was the chain lubed and ajusted so it didn't cause drag? Was the brake taken off so it didn't drag? Was there a correction factor used? I guess i'm interested in what a stock bike can make and not what the bike makes in current form. As far as self proclaimed expert go's, i have been playing this game long enough to know what's right and wrong. I like factual data, obviously some do not....
I'm done, i didn't reply in the first place to start a war, just ask a question. Now i get flamed for asking the obviouse. You all showed me, lol :rolleyes:
Speedster700HP
10-11-2005, 01:24 PM
Nice post! :beer It's not easy to find dynos of the old trikes. I believe 5th gear is probably 1:1, therefore, to be accurate you should dyno in 5th or whatever gear is 1:1. You are undoubtedly losing power by dynoing in 3rd.
This session helps demonstrate to those that might think the 4-stroke 350X has any chance against the 2-stroke 250R---forget about it!!!! Big difference.
Mr. Sandman
10-11-2005, 01:47 PM
Who's starting a war? fyi posted 3 different times that he was looking for a baseline to compare these results to future mods on the same machines. He never said that these dyno runs were to find anything but that. Sure, you can do a lot of things differently to get optimum/exact results, but as he said the 1st, 2nd and 3rd time, that was never his intention, it was only for fun, and not to prove something. It's unfortunate that lips can't be read over the internet, as plain typed English didn't seem to get through.
Well, I guess the 4(fourth) time's hopefully a charm telling you the same thing, so hopefully it sticks this time.....
"I'm not trying to sell anything, I'm not trying to teach anyone anything, I'm not trying to prove anyone or anything right/wrong and I'm certainly not trying to change the world. It was done for fun, for ourselves, that's all...nothing else."
If you want to throw the info I posted here in the trash and say what you wish about me, the machine or the method we dyno'd the ATC, than by all means~ you certainly have my blessing. I can tell you one thing though, I'll still sleep very well at night knowing you did so. :)
Blown 331
10-11-2005, 05:06 PM
Nice post! :beer It's not easy to find dynos of the old trikes. I believe 5th gear is probably 1:1, therefore, to be accurate you should dyno in 5th or whatever gear is 1:1. You are undoubtedly losing power by dynoing in 3rd.
This session helps demonstrate to those that might think the 4-stroke 350X has any chance against the 2-stroke 250R---forget about it!!!! Big difference.
I beleive 5th gear is 1 to 1 and 6th is overdriven. I've always had my cars dynoed in direct drive.
Edit
I had 4th and 5th, forgot they were 6 speeds. :crazy:
I'm not sure what gear is 1:1 on the 250R, but on the 350x~ 6th is the nearest to a 1:1 ratio of all the gears with O.E. size tires. With that said, there is no way I'm spinning either of those machines that fast on the dyno in a 1:1 pull no matter how accurate the data....for not only my safety setting on the thing, but for the machine/tires. They were never meant to spin a 2864 lb. steel car dyno drum at those kinds of speeds it would be going in 6th and I'll bet it wouldn't be too pretty having a tire or two come apart on the dyno at those speeds..... :eek:
ATC crazy
10-11-2005, 06:18 PM
Nice post! :beer It's not easy to find dynos of the old trikes. I believe 5th gear is probably 1:1, therefore, to be accurate you should dyno in 5th or whatever gear is 1:1. You are undoubtedly losing power by dynoing in 3rd.
This session helps demonstrate to those that might think the 4-stroke 350X has any chance against the 2-stroke 250R---forget about it!!!! Big difference.
Actually, he would be gaining power in 3rd gear, because the gears are multiplying the power to the wheels. But it should have been run at a 1:1 ratio for true power readings.
Speedster700HP
10-11-2005, 07:25 PM
I'm not sure what gear is 1:1 on the 250R, but on the 350x~ 6th is the nearest to a 1:1 ratio of all the gears with O.E. size tires. With that said, there is no way I'm spinning either of those machines that fast on the dyno in a 1:1 pull no matter how accurate the data....for not only my safety setting on the thing, but for the machine/tires. They were never meant to spin a 2864 lb. steel car dyno drum at those kinds of speeds it would be going in 6th and I'll bet it wouldn't be too pretty having a tire or two come apart on the dyno at those speeds..... :eek:
The wheels coming apart at 65 mph? LOL if they will do that on the dyno, they would do the same on the dirt and we would all be in trouble. I have spun the tires of my car on the dyno at 170 mph!
You do have a good point about the stress caused by a small engine turning that big drum, though.
Speedster700HP
10-11-2005, 07:28 PM
Actually, he would be gaining power in 3rd gear, because the gears are multiplying the power to the wheels. But it should have been run at a 1:1 ratio for true power readings.
You make more power in the higher gears, it is proven all the time with cars, and I have personally seen this with my car. I can gain 5% by dynoing in 5th instead of 4th in my car, some see much bigger gains than this.
Actually that's backwards ATCcrazy. ;)
When we dyno high-powered automobiles on our chassis dyno (1:1 is 4th for manuals~ 3rd for auto's) we will see a decrease in RWHP for each respective gear selection lower than a 1:1 ratio and an increase in RWHP for gear selections above 1:1. The same thing holds true for vehicles with smaller/taller tires and with lower/higher gear ratios in the differentials. The only thng that really remains as a trackable linear constant is actual wheel speed that is lower/higher depending on which situation you're in described above.
A dyno is merely a tuning tool to use to develop a particular vehicle to its maximum performance as much as possible, without having to visit a drag strip to dial it in everytime a change is made to the powertrain combination. A "dyno" only takes a snapshot in time of the vehicle's powertrain performance for that given day, in those given conditions and is certainly subject to go either way of baseline depending on the varying ambient conditions. The vehicle could make less power on one day, just as easy as it could make more power on another day... It's really a moving target that cannot possibly be hit due to the infinite variables present...accurately at least.
Unfortunately, most people use dyno numbers as a way to "prove themselves" to everyone else as "hero's" on what power their vehicle is making. (like we really give 2 craps anyway :rolleyes: ) To us, we really don't care, because all a dyno number tells me is the power output potential of that vehicle, in those conditions that the dyno test took place. Nothing more..
We use our dyno here as a real tuning tool, in that we baseline a car to see where it's at (where ever that may be) and then after an engine is built and calibrated properly, we put it back on the dyno to see where we have ended up after the performance upgrade completion. We basically use the baseline number as a benchmark to measure the performance delta gain/loss after the car is finished. We don't care if the car made 1 RWHP on the baseline test or whatever, because we can still measure the performance delta accurately from baseline to completion.
Clear as mud? ;) :beer
speedster700hp wrote:
The wheels coming apart at 65 mph? LOL
Incorrect and you're forgetting a very important aspect, which most people do also, so you're not alone....
When any vehicle is on a chassis dyno, wheel speed potential is MUCH greater than it ever would be on the street or track in the same conditions, with the same vehicle. Oversimplifed causes of this is vehicle aerodynamics and powertrain load...
When a vehicle is on a chassis dyno, the only job the engine has to do is spin the tires/drivetrain...that's it, nothing else; therefore wheel speed can FAR exceed a tire manufacturers specs easily spinning on the dyno rollers because of this...
When that same vehicle is on the street/track, the engine not only has to spin the tires/drivetrain, but also move the entire weight of the car and pull it through the air, which only gets more difficult as the vehicle speed increases.
This is why it's common for a standard street car to be capable of exceeding 200+ MPH of wheel speed while on the chassis dyno, but barely be able to break 150 MPH while on the street.
With these ATV's, it's no different and as I said before, there is no way I'm setting on a open-wheeled ATV on a chassis dyno pulling at full-throttle in 6th gear with wheel speed in the 157 MPH area! Those types of ATV tires were never meant for that kind of speed, much less on a dyno and I'm not going to push them that hard just to prove to the internet public what I'm saying is accurate....
I've seen a Z-rated tire explode off the rim of a Corvette at 197 MPH and it flew off into pieces so violently, it completely shredded the rear qtr. panel of the car, damaged the rim, tore a huge hole in the ceiling insulation AND ripped the 15,000lb capacity hold-down straps securing the car to the dyno! :eek:
I don't wish for that to happen to me sitting atop an ATV, pulling this thing in 6th, accurate data or not..who cares! Plus, it's MUCH easier on the engine and clutch. I value my heath/life more than that... ;)
Rex Karz
10-11-2005, 08:11 PM
Welcome to the internet ! Everyone's an EX-SPURT, even the 15 year old riding his mommy's trike. What I came away with was that I was impressed by the 350X's "area under the curve" i.e. the large gobs of power in the lower rpm's. I was also impressed by the amount of advice on how to "Improve Your Baseline" LOL LOL
daputz
10-11-2005, 08:31 PM
Actually that's backwards ATCcrazy. ;)
When we dyno high-powered automobiles on our chassis dyno (1:1 is 4th for manuals~ 3rd for auto's) we will see a decrease in RWHP for each respective gear selection lower than a 1:1 ratio and an increase in RWHP for gear selections above 1:1. The same thing holds true for vehicles with smaller/taller tires and with lower/higher gear ratios in the differentials. The only thng that really remains as a trackable linear constant is actual wheel speed that is lower/higher depending on which situation you're in described above.
A dyno is merely a tuning tool to use to develop a particular vehicle to its maximum performance as much as possible, without having to visit a drag strip to dial it in everytime a change is made to the powertrain combination. A "dyno" only takes a snapshot in time of the vehicle's powertrain performance for that given day, in those given conditions and is certainly subject to go either way of baseline depending on the varying ambient conditions. The vehicle could make less power on one day, just as easy as it could make more power on another day... It's really a moving target that cannot possibly be hit due to the infinite variables present...accurately at least.
Unfortunately, most people use dyno numbers as a way to "prove themselves" to everyone else as "hero's" on what power their vehicle is making. (like we really give 2 craps anyway :rolleyes: ) To us, we really don't care, because all a dyno number tells me is the power output potential of that vehicle, in those conditions that the dyno test took place. Nothing more..
We use our dyno here as a real tuning tool, in that we baseline a car to see where it's at (where ever that may be) and then after an engine is built and calibrated properly, we put it back on the dyno to see where we have ended up after the performance upgrade completion. We basically use the baseline number as a benchmark to measure the performance delta gain/loss after the car is finished. We don't care if the car made 1 RWHP on the baseline test or whatever, because we can still measure the performance delta accurately from baseline to completion.
Clear as mud? ;) :beer
I totally agree with FYI, a dyno is a tuning tool. If you want to use dyno for bragging rights.............then hit hit a few different dynos at $whatever a run and post the highest results you get :crazy:.
The last dyno I ran (it used an exhaust sniffer to get the jetting on the mark), tabbed a piped raptor at 34 hp, a piped banshee at 38 hp, a stock 400ex at 18 hp, and my modified blaster at 23hp...................how many of you are willing to bragg about your 38 hp piped banshee, or 34 hp piped raptor?????????
Troll 2
10-11-2005, 09:58 PM
When a vehicle is on a chassis dyno, the only job the engine has to do is spin the tires/drivetrain...that's it, nothing else; therefore wheel speed can FAR exceed a tire manufacturers specs easily spinning on the dyno rollers because of this...
With these ATV's, it's no different and as I said before, there is no way I'm setting on a open-wheeled ATV on a chassis dyno pulling at full-throttle in 6th gear with wheel speed in the 157 MPH area!
I was with you through this post. Seems like you wanted existing readings then see what the trike would read after. Pretty basic. You could have lubed your chain, jetted the carb or ran other fuels, IF thats what you were after.
I ran a old school sun chassis dyno for sixteen years. It used electro-magnets to apply a load. Set it for say 60mph and that was it. Just increase the mph to raise rpms untill power peaked and dropped.
From your quoted statmement it sounds like your dyno is just free rollers. Anyway, its been a while since my dyno days.....lol
Thanks for keeping us posted with your progress........... :beer
Our chassis dyno is an inertial load bearing dyno, meaning that the drum mass always remains constant (2864 lbs.) so the power measurement calculation is based on simple physics.
Acceleration of a known mass over time.
:)
Meat-BoX
10-11-2005, 10:07 PM
I see a Dyno War Brewing. Dyno the 250 R with the fun juice and tyou others dyno your rides on high grade pump gas and let see whats up. Just dont make me break out the Zinger with the wicked Red Metal Flake Flame job. That Flame Job alone gives me 10 more HP :w00t:
Troll 2
10-11-2005, 11:01 PM
I like this vid....................... :D
http://saberracing.com/pics/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=14
http://saberracing.com/pics/thumbnails.php?album=4&page=2
Another.........151hp
Vid http://www.planetsand.com/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=281122
link http://www.planetsand.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/281122/an/0/page/5#281122
Then some dyno info..........Waterbreak dyno vs. wieghted chassis dyno http://www.planetsand.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/317475/an/0/page/5#317475
I totally agree with FYI, a dyno is a tuning tool. If you want to use dyno for bragging rights.............then hit hit a few different dynos at $whatever a run and post the highest results you get :crazy:.
The last dyno I ran (it used an exhaust sniffer to get the jetting on the mark), tabbed a piped raptor at 34 hp, a piped banshee at 38 hp, a stock 400ex at 18 hp, and my modified blaster at 23hp...................how many of you are willing to bragg about your 38 hp piped banshee, or 34 hp piped raptor?????????
LOL, How about a 60 hp raptor, a 60 hp banshee, and a 53 hp trx 450r? That's what my buddies ride. And yes, thats rear wheel hp.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.