Atc 4 Me

[CoeShow]

Hello everybody!

My name is Mike Coe. Once upon a time I used to race ATC's for American Honda's factory ATC racing team. I was very fortunate to be able to race for a living for a number of years.

It was an incredable time racing ATC's in the early through mid 80's.

I consider myself very lucky to have been part of the BIG RED TEAM of that era. I raced for Honda for 5 years until they dismantled the team at the end of 1985.

Even though Honda did race in 1986, ATC racing was unfortunately dying a quick death. It was also a very difficult time for someone who was in the racing prime of his life (me) and didn't know what else to do BUT race!

I now am the proud father of 3 children. The oldest of which is now 16. She is the one who actually turned me on to this site. I have many fond memories of my days racing ATC's and will happily share them with you.

Any one that has any questions or needs some info about something please ask. I started out replying to a post by Dean Kirsten, former 3 Wheeling magazine guru. Dean was always a class act whatever he was doing. I wish I could say the same for myself.

Anyway, hello again. I'll read ya soon I hope. Till then...................

Mike

[250rAL]

Mike, do you have any ATV's/ATC's now? How about any cool momentos of your racing days?

[chris200x]

:Bounce :welcome: This is so awesome! I would like to know how you got started in ATC racing and what was your first impressions of the 81 'ATC 250R? Was that the first trike you raced or did you start off racing in other classes?

[bigredhead]

Do you still have your trike ?

welcome to the boards !!

[Dammit!]

Some old racing pics would be great. Do you have any you can post?

[Yardbird]

Hello Mike,

It's very nice to hear from someone who was involved with the early days of ATC racing. Are you still involved with the racing scene and do you still keep in contact with some of the other factory Honda riders? Just one more question. What was your favorite type of racing, Baja or on the track? When I saw who the originator of the thread was and before I had read it, I thought no way! Hopefully you still have a 250R parked in your garage. I still prefer to ride on 3 wheels myself and love to ride.....dare I say it......my '86 Tecate! :welcome: :beer

[83200e]

1st Dean,now Mike Coe.This site just keeps getting better and better.

[Huffa]

Hey MC

Glad to meet you and great to hear that a factory Honda 3W guy has joined 3WW!!! I have a few questions.

OK, we know there are 87 Honda's but do you have any idea if there are some 350X's & 250R's in America? http://www.3wheelerworld.com/87ATCs.shtml

You have any cool pictures you can post from back then? I know everyone would get a thrill out of that!

Do you have any pull at Honda yet? If so, tell them to stop crushing our parts and get the molds back out for stock Honda plastic :beer ........or did they crush them too? :lol:

What performace mods did you or rather Honda do to your R? I'm sure alot will be interested in that too!

Ever run over your foot? :D

[trikezilla]

Hey Mike. Welcome to the boards here!! lol, as you've read by know, we all wanna SEE PICS. Shoot...all the questions I was going to ask have been asked. Oh well, welcome again...cant wait for the responses!

Charlie

[OldManDM]

welcome mike....and believe it or not, I`M A FAN!!!...i remember you from back in the day!I started riding ATC`s in `81 and used to read about you in dirt wheels mag....anyway,welcome to the boards and looking forward to hearing some of your stories and hopefully seeing some pics!

[trikerider2oo7]

welcome mke..glad to see you on the site. i cant wait to hear some good old 3 wheeler stories

[CoeShow]

Hello all!
I'll try to answer all of the questions that I can. I am currently working with an old friend that has an 85 ATC250R that I want to fix up like my old short course racer from back then. I still have almost all of the momentos and trophies from my racing days.

I got started racing ATC's around 1976. My brother Sam actually got the bug first, and got me into it. Tommy Gaian and I were neighbors and closer in age, but Tommy and my brother were actually closer as far as friendship.

I first started racing in the 138cc class on a modified ATC 90. I was "blown away" like most everybody else when I first saw and rode the 1981 ATC250R. My brother still has his 81!

I have been in contact and ridden recently with Donny Luce. I talk with Curtis Sparks every now and then and stop by when I'm in the Bakersfield area. I see Tommy Gaian occaisionally too. I saw Wax a few years ago and people tell me they see Wax around.

I enjoyed ALL the different types of racing that I did on three wheelers. I felt the most rewarding overall was the short course racing like the Baja Cross series that was held at Saddle Back Park back then.

After winning an AMA national held in Colorado Springs in 1985, I approached the Pikes Peak racing commitee about racing a 3 wheeler at Pikes Peak. They said no. They were in the middle of a 10 year ban of racing motorcycles on the hill.

They did allow ATV's to race along with motorcycles starting again in 1993. My brother and I put together a Banshee with the help of many others (even Jimmy White helped) And we went up there and won the event. I had retired from racing in 1998 before the birth of my first child. I came out of retirement because I always had this "empty spot" . I just had to "Race to the clouds!"

Well, we went there and won! We even beat the current ATV champ!

This win was very special because of my direct involvement with my brother Sam. He really busted his butt for this event. People still tell me that our time is still a record for the 350cc class.

I have quite an assortment of pictures, but no proper equipment to down load to this site. Maybe soon.

Do I have any pull at Honda? No. But, my mechanic from my Honda days is now the Honda Racing Team Manager. Good for you Chuck!

Our ATC's were modified of course, but to be honest, the performance of my 250R's from my final year with Honda (1985) wasn't quite as good as when I ran DG Performance equipped trikes. Honda hired Paul Turner to perform all of the engine mods "in house" and all team members had to run Paul Turner cylinders and pipes, NO Exceptions. A problem that soon developed was that Steve Carter (Marty Harts mechanic) and Paul Turner were good buddies.

Almost immediately Paul, Steve, and Marty Hart were their own team, within the team, if you will. All of my former sponsors, including DG Performance, Bel-Ray, Sidi, Tsubaki, and others, I had to sever ties with, or not be able to ride for Honda. It was very difficult.

The biggest problem for me was that the parts (cylinders and pipes) that Chuck received from Paul Turner were always slow. ALL of the testing was done with Marty first. They would test for days all kinds of new set up's and combo's. Once they were happy with what they had, they would run the fastest stuff, and then give the "left over" stuff to Chuck for us to test and race with.

Needless to say, I never had anything worth a **** ALL season. I was still winning races, but more with talent than fast bikes thats for sure.

EXCEPT ONCE!! San Jose National, 1985.

I may write about the TOTAL fiasco that was San Jose National 1985 some day. What a total disgrace. If I would have had a gun then, I might be in prison now.

Yes I have run over my feet. Not regularly mind you, but it happened.
I hope this answers some of your questions.

Keep em coming.

Mike

[atctim]

Mike,

Welcome to the site - I'm sure I can speak for everyone here when I say it is really cool to have an "old school super star" aboard the board. Just a few questions -

Was the 350X every a major player in motocross - I know the majority was 250R's and other two strokes, but did anyone ever give the 350X a jolly run of it?

Do you plan to restore or rebuild any trikes soon?

Will you be interested in attending Trikefest '06?

Thanks in advance for you replies.

ATC Tim

[bigredhead]

I'm sure we have other members in the San Diego area... ANYONE with a scanner ?!!!!

[Huffa]

Hello all!

I have quite an assortment of pictures, but no scanner or proper equipment to down load to this site. Maybe soon.

Mike

Some of the moderators on here will gladly downsize them and install on here.

Just find out who and blast them a email with some pics.

Anyone know who it is?

[TimSr]

Hello Mike, and welcome to the board! If its any consolation, due to a few die hards on this board, amateur 3 wheeler motocross and harescrambling is alive and well in Ohio!!! We usually have to run in quad classes, but at least we get chance to put on a good show! There are pictures posted all over this board and others for some of these events but viewing them may give you some flashbacks and reignite "the bug". Im just just finishing my seventh year of ATV MX and Harrescrambling, mostly on my TriZ, and even though I should retire, there's always "just one more season".
Again, welcome to the board.

[250rAL]

Shouldn't this thread be a sticky too?

[trikezilla]

Mike,
Did you ever get to race the 83R?? Have you ever ice raced??

lol..I think it should be a sticky too

[Billy Golightly]

Hey Mike, I got a couple questions for you when you get a chance.

What other race team did you feel was Honda's biggest threat over the years?
Did they have anything you wished you had? I mean, parts wise, support, ect.
Did you ever get to ride Steve Wrights 200R? If you did, can you share some info about it? Its one of the more mysterious and cool trikes to me.

[firefirefire90]

And you knew Tommy Gain too right? did * ride his 200R? what about the ATC480? Last but not least, did * ride....he 1987 250R? The one with white plastics all around? How bout the 87 350x? Thanks man, hope to hear your stories soon.

[CoeShow]

Hey everybody! I'll try to answer some of the questions.

I did race the 1983 250R. I raced for the Honda ATC team from 1981-1985. I did all of the photo's for the 1983 Honda ATC brochure's. I never saw any 1987 model ATC's.

Honda DID have a pre-production ATC500 in 1985.

It was very similar to the 250 but had different frame geometry and a few other cool items. The machine handled so well, that they actually measured and copied the frame dimensions and modified our production 250 frames to match. I personally never saw or rode the machine. I believe Honda was already planning my demise and Marty Hart was chosen to do the riding/testing.

The tank and radiators were mounted farther forward. This allowed the seat to be moved forward as well. The fork angle was different (steeper angle) and the trike overall handled better for short course racing.

Other teams as a threat ? I never looked at the racing that way. I believe Honda spent more money that Kawasaki which was the only other "team". Jimmy White was / is a very good rider and was awesome on the starts. I was fortunate that at the best races, the start wasn't all important. But there were many races that were/are one liners and no matter how fast you are, it is nearly impossible to pass. Many of the TT and flat track races were this way. When every turn is a hairpin, how can you pass? Ashtabula has a world class facility, but the only place to really pass is on the straight.

Honda was very supportive UNTIL they hired Paul Turner and brought in Bruce Ogilvie. If it wasn't for the CPSC, Bruce would have single handedly ruined the team anyway (IMHO).

I did ride the 2 stroke 200's. They were light and fast. Stevie Wright really didn't quite have the talent needed to be to be competitive on these ultimate race trikes.

The bad thing about that class (200 2 stroke) is that it didn't have any production counterpart like the 250R or ATC200X. By todays standard (and then too I believe) The 200X's SHOULD have been allowed in the 125cc class. AMA double displacement rule right?

Honda had many trick parts that they COULD use to develop the market, but many felt it would over develop the machines. They were right.

The marketing folks didn't take long to figure out that people would buy ATC/V's regardless of the racing. Unlike motorcycles and auto's, WIN ON SUNDAY, SELL ON MONDAY had NO impact on ATC sales. A racing team was not going to be needed to sell the machines.

I do know Tommy Gaian quite well. I can't remember if he had or liked the 200R. The ATC480 I rode with and won the ATC overall at Riverside in 1983 was custom built by my brother Sam. He also built a few other custom ATC chassis's for Honda at the time. The 480 was built specifically to race in the open class at Riverside, likely THE premier race of the era. It was a CR480 engine grafted into a 250R chassis with aftermarket suspension parts available and pre-production 1983 front end. Honda had a custom pipe built for it because nothing else would fit or work correctly. I reached speeds nearing 100 MPH down "Thompsons Ridge" on that trike. It was fast, but vibrated a bit much. Like most OPEN class bikes and trikes, it was only an advantage on really BIG and LONG race courses. On smaller, tighter tracks, the 250R was easier to ride and had less wheel spin, allowing for faster lap times.

Well, keep bringing the questions. I'll try to answer them. This is fun!

Mike

[bigredhead]

Did you get to race against any of the Tigers ( the 500 for example ) ? what was your impression of them at the time ?

[MTS]

Any Chance at all that your brother still has some diagrams or pictures of the 480r at all or could describe the modifications need'd to make one.....?

[Yardbird]

Thanks for the replies. It sucks that politics and behind close doors shenanigans have to ruin a good thing. I was/still a Jimmy White fan and it's nice to hear that even though he was a competitor you still respected a great rider. Do you still get a chance to do any recreational riding with your family and if so what are some of your favorite places to roost it? I moved from San Diego (Mira Mesa) last year and definately get sand withdrawls every time dune season starts up. :drool: Just one more question. What were some of your favorite places to race?

[83200e]

Other than the 90 you mentioned,what other bikes did you race before riding with honda?

[trikezilla]

Would this be you on the air fooleR then if you did all the shoots or did I misunderstand? What were your impressions of the 83? Remember any neat tricks you did to it that I could do to give it a little extra or even too look more factory racer style??

Thanks :D

[CoeShow]

Hi all ! I'll try to answer more of the questions!

atctim.
The 350X was never a player in open class ATC racing. I know there are many who really enjoy them, and they are excellent 3 wheelers. At the time they would have had to run in the "open" class. They were a little heavy and down on power when compared to a 360- 500cc 2 stroke.

Trikezilla,

I have ice raced a few times. I was top 5 if I recall at the Lake George AMA National in 1985. I won the New York State Ice Racing championship at Olean New York around that same time. I also raced a Banshee on the ice at the San Diego sports arena back in 1994 or so after racing at Pikes Peak.

That IS me on the brochure you have posted. On the 83's we custom cut and reformed the gas tanks so we could remove the steering stops to allow the forks to turn sharper and reduce the possibility of spinning out. Dean Sundahl made some fiberglass rear fenders that lowered the fender closer to the short course tires we used to race with. These fenders allowed more room to move around on as well. That and major engine builds, pipes, appropriate tires, gearing and that was it!

BigRedHead,

I did race against the Tigers. There was a small effort from Tiger, but they never seemed to do well for the most part. I don't ever remember anyone even running at the front in any races on a Tiger. I may be wrong here, but that is how I remember it.

My Trike Sucks ?????

My brother never had any blueprints or drawings of this trike. He hand fabricated and/or modified everthing necessary to position the engine correctly into the 250R chassis by cutting, welding, milling, and fabricating all the metals. He is a World class fabricator and Engine builder. He can get 100+ rear wheel HP from a Banshee!

One of his latest creations was grafting two CR500 engines together to form a 1000cc twin, and mounted it in a modified banshee frame. Talk about a monster! This thing TRUELY rips!! Not for the unexperienced. Amazingly the thing kick starts easily.

Yardbird.

I LIVE IN MIRA MESA. Have for the last 12 years. I respect most of my peers, always did. Jimmy White, Donny Luce, Steve Mendenhall, Jackie Meadows and other Kawasaki racers were all top notch. Many other privateers rode extremely fast as well. I do ride recreationally with my family, but not on ATC/V's. It's motorcycles only at the time being. My favorite race track was Saddle Back Park, hands down. It was closed down in the late 80's. Riverside was another favorite. We never really raced any of the same or repeating venues like the AMA motorcycles do. Only the SCORE off road races and such you could count on year in and year out.
I didn't care as much for the completely flat tracks so much. I felt that the trikes needed to use their suspension. As the sport progressed and the wheel travel increased, the race tracks seemed to get flatter, and more single file and NO passing! This is no slam to Jimmy White or Gary Denton, but many of these races were decided at the start because passing was sometimes impossible. I feel Jimmy White was probably the best starter during the 3 wheeler days. Any of the REAL tracks that used ALL of the suspension I loved. The only flat track stuff I liked were the TRUE ovals and TT races like the AMA flat trackers race, and like Mike Kidd's Boyd Texas race facility. While passing was still difficult, the turns were not all HAIRPIN turns where all you needed to do was stay on the inside and no one could pass. One line tracks = NO FUN.

83200e
There were a couple. I raced my brothers 1981 250R. After he purchased it I started racing it and winning against Dean Sundahl and Mark Waxeldorfer at the local race tracks. This soon got the attention of Honda, and after a couple of miscues, they invited me on board as a factory sponsored rider. I thought I was in Heaven those first few years! One race before Honda was (I believe) the 1981 Baja 500. I was invited to race the Team Husqvarna Trike for this event with Tracy Dickson. We were WAY ahead of Honda until the bike suffered some small problem. That 3 wheeler was way trick for the time! I also raced the 3 Wheeling Magazine entry at the 1981 Score Baja 1000! I actually passed and made some time on one of the Team Honda entries. Thats about it before my Honda tenure. I also had a Pro support deal from Suzuki for the year 1986, and had Factory Support from Yamaha through 1987 and 1988. I retired after 1988 season, but came back for the Pikes peak race in 1993 (we won!). That officially ended my Professional ATV racing career.

If I left any one out I apologize. Please bring on more questions. This is cool. Tell your friends!

[Dammit!]

If you're still in contact with any of those old school trike racers, send them a link to this place. I love reading stuff like this.

[250rBeast]

Mike I just want to express sincere gratitude for your presence here. The fact that you take time to visit this site and answer questions regarding your glory days as an ATC Factory racer means alot to me, as it does to many people here. I only browse the site occassionally due to a busy schedule and demanding career however, knowing you're on here talking about some of the things that were so dear to me during my childhood, makes it that much easier to take the time to check in more often. To you Sir I say welcome, thanks for the sweet memories, your presence is a blessing and I am much obliged. Allan



Mike I just have one question, was Tom Carlson running his 350X's in the open classes, I heard his bikes were radical. Thanks again Mike. Allan

[Jeb]

Welcome Mike Coe!

I've really enjoyed reading your posts! I started riding on a 70 in '82. Never raced but have always loved 3-wheelers.

I'd love to read your thoughts on your main competition: the Kawasaki Tecate's (both designs) and the Yamaha Tri-Z's.

One other thing, I'm pretty close to Boyd, TX. How'd you like racing at Boyd?

:welcome: :beer

[Old 179]

Mike,
I found your interview with "Valerie Amarillas" in July 82 3wheeler mag. Had where you had lived. ( some "Ohio" members may be interested in your teens years there!) Rick Callaway influence on you, First racer "as a 138cc" at Speedway 117. Your first site of the 250r in the desert , and that Sam bought one right after that. He had built it and you raced it, about desert racing, and what got you on with Honda.

[OldManDM]

you should see if you can`t scan that interview and put it on here for all of us to read Old 179,that would be cool!

[Wickedfinger]

That IS me on the brochure you have posted.(1983 ATC250R brochure) lol ..... You'd be happy to know that you have been framed on the wall of my garage for about 15 - 20 years now. Welcome Mike.

[CoeShow]

Hey everyone, hows it goin'? I'm having a good time answering your questions. I'll try to answer some more.

Jeb.
The Kawasaki's......... Well, lets face it. When they were first introduced, they were faster than the Honda's in STOCK configuration. They were also a little faster when modified too. Overall, I feel the Hondas still had an advantage in the handling and "overall powerband" and suspension areas.

The later Kawasakis were good too, but by this time the Hondas were EXCELLENT. Again, the Kawi's were probably making a little more "peak" power. A problem with Kawi's was vibration. The Kawi's didn't use a counter balancer in the engine like the Hondas did. Yamaha's?? I don't know. I know many people liked the TriZ's, but to be honest I feel they were always down on power compared to the Hondas and Kawasaki's.

The gas tank location and other "ergonomics" seemed to keep them from handling really well and being truly competitive. They enjoyed limited racing success, mostly desert racing, but Yamaha never "fully" backed a team that could have developed it more and possibly made it more competitive at the short course races. In stock form they seemed pretty good. I'm not biased, but overall the 1985 and 86 ATC250R were probably the best overall performance three wheeler's ever made.

I did race at Boyd. It was an excellent race track. Mike Kidd raced for Honda then, and he invited the team to race there. Boyd was one of my favorite flat track style racing tracks. The first time I raced there I crashed pretty hard in the main event and did not have a good finish. The second time Honda was forcing us (Team Honda) to use Ohtsu brand tires. The Ohtsus would only last a handfull of laps and then start shredding. I had a poor finish then too. We had Hoosier tires, but could not use them in the races, only for "comparison" purposes. I lost a number races because of tires alone in 1985.

250rBeast

Tom Carlson was/is a very talented engine builder, and just a super guy too. His modified stuff ran as good as any on the race circuit. Tom did race as well, but I don't think he was as interested in the racing part as he was in the engine part. I may be wrong on the last statement. I don't recall ever racing against him head to head in the "open" class where I raced often. I remember him or his sponsored racers were mostly in the 200X races, or someone racing his 200X in that class.

Well, have a good weekend and keep on with the questions.........

Mike

[Billy Golightly]

This is a question thats kind of been asked alot over the years that no one is really sure of. What did Honda do with the Factory trikes after the last race season? Did they crush them, or were you allowed to keep them?

If someone was looking for an old factory race bike, what could they look for that would set them apart from most of the other 250R's?

[petesatc]

Hey Mike
long time fan here......ever since my first 3wheeler in 83!!!!!
i was just wondering why you were not allowed to use the 85' mugen kit? and did you ever try one out???....
thanks
Pete from accoss the pond :D

[Curtis-Tecate3]

Pete,

Read up here first..
http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=40980&page=2

I am sure Mike will let you know if he ever tested or rode a Mugen motor but he was clearly not allowed to compete with any "Unapproved" parts while at Honda.

Curtis.

[CoeShow]

Oh contrare Curtis-Tecate3 !!

Allowed? NO. But, after getting slow engine components all season (which I theorized was to boost Marty Harts chances to beat me) Oh Hell yes!!

Harry Klemm and Bill Cervera both helped me with engine stuff after I simply couldn't take getting such pitifully slow components from Paul Turner!

My first race with Harry's stuff I won. At the Lorretta Lynn National in 1985. I won the following race as well at Colorado Springs. The final race of the year was at the San Jose National. I had a Paul Turner ROCKET for that race. After qualifying fastest I never got to race that engine. If any one wants to hear that story, just let me know. What a sham that race was.

What A lot (most) of the 3 wheel faithful never knew was that Honda MADE UP an impossible points system that ensured Marty Hart received the number 1 plate for 1985. This was the first year that the AMA was to promote the professional racing program for ATV racing. I WON the Title based on the original point system. To make themselves feel OK (Honda management) about themselves, they PAID me on the original system. I won the money, but Marty got the #1 plate. I guess Honda mangement did this because they couldn't come to terms with letting the points champion go. Marty HAD to be the champ no matter what. Marty had like 3 DNF's and what should have been a D.Q. at the Loretta Lynn's woods race. With his results he wasn't going to win the title.

Another FIASCO! Ask anyone who was there. Wanna Know? Just ask me.

Check it out with the AMA. They somehow lost all of the race results and their records of the 1985 ATV racing YEAR. How is that possible? The AMA was and had been in Honda's pocket for many years. What ever Honda wanted to have happen, happened.

[RichinMO]

I recently read in a 3wheeling back issue about the 1985 season wrap up and awards (where they handed our the little clocks made out of cut up trees!) It said that you were the only racer to gain points in every race and showed that you won more money than Hart. After reading that, you know there was some shady stuff going on.

[petesatc]

Hey Mike
i'd love to know what went on back in 85 races......HART never should have been crowned champ from what you have said......
THANKS
Pete

[Curtis-Tecate3]

Mike,

Thanks for the info and welcome to the board. I never posted when you first arrived but I want to say that I am very thankful that you are sharing your information with us.

I am surprised (and pleased) to hear that you were able to obtain assistance from others after unsuccessfully running hand-me-down Paul Turner stuff for most of the 85 season. You said that you had help from Harry Klemm (Klemm Research) and Bill Cervera (Bills Pipes). Did they provide you with complete motors or just cylinders & pipes? Were they working together with you to get your bike up to speed or were they competing with each other for your work? I have had the pleasure of personally talking to both of these guys in the past while trying to dig up the right parts and info for my 86 Tecate and they are both top notch guys.

Thanks again for your participation.

Curtis

[Jez]

The final race of the year was at the San Jose National. I had a Paul Turner ROCKET for that race. After qualifying fastest I never got to race that engine. If any one wants to hear that story, just let me know. What a sham that race was.

Hi Mike,

Just wanted to say welcome. It's great to have such a legend posting on the board. I'm absolutely loving reading your posts. It'd be great to hear more about the 1985 San Jose National.

Cheers,
Jez (From across the pond)

[mad_max]

Mike,

This is some great "behind the scenes" info. I appreciate you taking the time to share it with us.

It dosent surprise me that Honda was pulling strings with the AMA... I dont encourage unethical practices but I can understand why it might happen.
BTW, I still think the "Big Red Machine" was the best team ever.

Max

[CoeShow]

Hey every one! I'll try to shed SOME of the crap that happened in 1985 and answer some other questions. I warn that this may get long.........

Curtis,

Harry Klemm worked with me individually(in secret) and we tested some very good stuff. At the time Honda had sent over a number of specially designed WORKS HIPO cylinders that would bolt on and were ALMOST indistinguishable from the stockers. While Harry's stuff was excellent, using everything of his on top of one of the WORKS cylinders made even better power. Bill's helped me big time with the 3 wheelers and then more when I was running some one-off quads for Yamaha.

The late Mickey Thompson was quite a salesman! He talked Yamaha into sponsoring into his Off-Road Gran Prix, and then came back and said,"Oh by the way, displacement limits for the quad racers is 250cc!! Yamaha was anticipating being able to race Banshees! No luck. Instead, My brother modified the Banshee frames to accept YZ250 engines. He built 2 for myself and another for Don Turk who raced with some success for a few years.

Nobody in their right mind wanted to spend any time working on something that they couldn't turn around and market for sale. Bill's still came to my rescue and made some Excellent hand built pipes for my YZ powered Banshees and for the one off Blaster I raced at a few races too. Unfortunately The Yamaha's were never as competitive as I would have liked because they were so different and every thing was unique to them.

For the last National of the year at San Jose in 1985, Chuck gathered together all of the parts for us to test and come up with a combo that we liked best. The testing session was held at Corona Raceway and was just incredible. While typical testing sessions were sometimes like splitting hairs to tell a difference, this day everything we tried kept making the trike faster and faster and faster.

When we left the raceway, I was ecstatic at how the trike was running. I KNEW I would be at the front at San Jose NO question. I had just come off of back to back victories at the last two Nationals and was in top form as well.

The cylinder that we chose for this race was a VERY custom reworked cylinder. The transfer ports were all epoxied up and recontoured and were VISIBLY modified. There was a boat load of work done to this cylinder. Chuck Miller my mechanic (and now current Honda Race Team Manager!) was convinced that the trike was clearly the best we had (using Turner components) for the season. The stopwatch doesn't lie. Somehow Steve Carter(Marty's mechanic) and Paul Turner felt that this cylinder was no good as it had clearly been run by them prior to making into our "pile" of leftovers for us to test.

Well, San Jose comes and we go out and set fast time in practice and Marty is struggling. I had absolutley no issue's other than some slight jetting changes that just made my trike even faster. We were looking forward to wining three in a row!

Chuck and I went to Sizzler that evening for dinner. Afterwards we went back to our hotel and were ready to call it a day. We were in my rental car when we came back to the Hotel and when we got there our Honda Box Van was GONE!!

We both went into a slight panic and Chuck started making frantic calls before calling the Police and reporting it stolen. Just about this time, Wes McCoy, the team manager got ahold of Chuck and informed him that the van wasn't stolen.
We both felt a huge relief, but then we asked, "Were is our van then?"

We were informed that Marty was unhappy with how his trike was running, and that his mechanic just wanted to "measure out" my top-end to possibly make a duplicate for Marty to try early the next day. I didn't like the sound of how things were going..... Not the night before the last NAtional of the year!! Wes said "Don't worry, everything will be fine" "Just go and get a good night rest". I did not like it.

Chuck and I drove over to where Paul Turner had a friend with a shop there in San Jose. Nobody expected us to show up there. We parked about a block away and walked up to the open doors of this shop. Heres Wes, Steve, and Paul Turner all thrashing about and there's MY 3 WHEELER all torn apart!! I was LIVID! I started yelling at them asking WTF were they doing!! They just kept saying that they wanted to "copy" it so that Marty might be more competitive. Then Steve gets in my face saying I should be more of a team player and other crap like that. I had been getting royally screwed over for the entire year using the crap Paul Turner/ left over parts. I had it up to here with his and Steve Carter's BS. I let it fly.

Well, I drive to the race track the following morning and Chuck can't even look me in the eye and looks as if he is really digusted. I get my riding gear on and when I look my trike over it's got a completly different topend on it!! I couldn't F**** believe it!! Chuck assembled my trike with a brand new top end, with no time on it. It promptly stuck in the first practice session. MY heat race just happened to be the first one of the morning. Chuck thrashed like a madman to put on another top end. In his rush, he assembled the engine with another cylinder that had been bored first over, and without realizing it, he put it together with a standard size piston. When I kicked it over it did start, but you can imagine what it sounded like. They promptly called my race to the start and I don't really remember where I finished. Its amazing the thing ran at all By now I'm on fire!

In between races I worked my way over to Marty's area. (we were supposed to be a team, but Steve and Marty always parked away form the rest of Team Honda) Anyway, they see me coming and Wes and Steve rush over to keep me away. Nothing could, and I got close enough to see it. There it was in all its Glory!! Martys trike had MY TOP END AND PIPE mounted. I was stunned to say the least!

I was so frustrated with all the turn of events I just couldn't help it and I lost it. I was between tears and yelling for what seemed like minutes. The wind had completly left my sails thats for sure. All I could think of was how political this season had become, and how it wasn't any fun anymore, and how much of a TEAM it wasn't.

I can't remember my finish at that race (anybody know?) By the main Chuck had a decent combo bolted up, but I had like the last pick of the back row to start in the main.

My finish still would have made me the points champion anyway, but Honda changed the points AGAIN to somehow allow Marty to collect a bogus championship. Even the Kawasaki guys knew it was all rigged. I did come away with a big pay check for the season, some consolation, but I still know I was the 1985 250 class champion.

It still gripes me to this day. Can you tell ?

Another story?? This is where it really got going and cooking. OK

At the Loretta Lynn's National earlier that year(85) It was a two race deal. The first day was the motocross race which I won. I went 2-1 to Marty's 1-2, giving me the win. The next day was the woods race. I don't know how many of you out there ever ran one of the early woods races, but let me tell you, the start is KEY. After you enter the woods it is single file, no exceptions. There are very few places to pass if you can, but not many.

Donny Luce gets the holeshot and is riding very well. I think I'm in 4th or 5th and making good time. It is a long race. 3 hours or something. Guess what? These races are dead engine start. When the flag drops, you have to kick over your machine and go! Unknown to me at the start, Marty's trike fouls the plug and does NOT START! By the time his mechanic figures out he has a fouled plug its 5+ minutes later.

Well, they get this BIG Idea thinking NO one will know. They throw Marty's trike in his box van and take it down the road some miles to where the course comes out near the road. They unload, throw in a new plug, and they wait until they can hear racers approaching. Then Marty takes off..... IN THE LEAD! Since it is such a long race you have to pit for fuel and goggles and stuff. Donny held the lead from the start, and I was being filled in during the pit stops of my positions and of the mounting fiasco with Marty and the race. It was clear that some serious stuff was going to hit the fan.

Marty stayed in front and Donny was credited for second place and I was third I believe at the finish. Kawasaki had watched the stuff with Marty unfold and they protested.

The Promoter (Dave Coombs) was a very honorable guy, but Honda had such an influence on these promotors that he said he couldn't act appropriately. He said that Marty SHOULD be DQ'd, and that Donny should be the victor, and me second.

After hours of behind the scene gesturing, they finally came out with the results. Donny first, MARTY SECOND and me third. Still totally bogus!!! I actually pulled in to the Kawasaki pits after the race because I was so mad at what was happening!

Chuck informed me that if Marty didn't get at least 2nd place, he would have no shot at the points title. (too bad)

I still went out and won the Baja 1000 as my final race effort for Honda in November. My fourth BAJA 1000 victory in as many years. As a consolation, The Honda "A" team (Marty, Wax, Curtis Sparks) for the 1000 had what was supposed to be the fastest off road 250R of all time. Turner and Carter spent untold amount of time and effort building this missle that was supposed to spank everything and set a land speed record. My team, consisting of Tracy Dickson, Steve Wright and myself (B Team) had a few Turner components and we went testing right threre in Baja. We quickly learned that our stock pre-runners were faster than our Turner "prepped" race trike! We started swapping on stock OEM parts onto the race trike until it was faster than out worn out pre-runners. That is what we entered and used to win the Baja 1000 that year. What happened to the "A" team?
Seems as though they broke down early in the race. Anyway, it was a sweet victory and my last ride for Team Honda ATC.

After reading some of these posts, it may appear as though I'm bitter and may have a poor outlook. I do not. Not one tiny bit. The good times clearly outnumbered the bad. I have no ill feelings about Marty Hart either. He was an excellent racer, but there were some agonizing events towards the end of my racing career at Honda that he was involved with, along with some troubling personal issues with the ATC Team mangement and my feelings of being handicapped with "lesser" performance equipment from Paul Turner.

Mike

[Dammit!]

That's some ridiculous **** right there. Wow.

Also, the second to last paragraph reminded me of something. Do you have any pictures of those 1985 250R baja racers? Big bug eye lights and all? I can only find like two shots of those online. I know you don't have a scanner yet but when you get one, I for one would LOVE to see a bunch of shots of those BAJA machines. I'd like to build one up like that.

[OldSchoolin86]

I tell ya Coe, I think if you wrote all this up for a movie you'd have a blockbuster!!!
By far the Coeshow is the best show in 3WW right now. Thanks for sharing everything with us.

[edog]

All i can say is wow!!!
You rule man.

[250rAL]

Man, if the internet had been around then, it might have been a different story. It must have been horrible trying to work with all that crap going on. Just one thing I don't get-- why did they want Marty to win so bad? What difference did it make as long as it was a Honda rider?

[catfish]

Back then when I was getting into racing big, my biggest dream was to become a factory rider with all the glory of traveling to all the races and signing autographs and being in the magazines and all. But now, I'm glad nothing like that ever happened. I never knew that stuff like that was going on. I guess it all looks good on the outside but beauty is only skin deep so the saying goes. Mike, I'm mad right with you. That was just totally wrong what they done to you. And the bad thing is that all the kids back then looked up to Marty because he was wearing the number 1 plate and was getting all the glory, when they should have been looking up to you. I was at the Loretta Lynn's race in 85 and I wish I would have come over and shook your hand after the race. At least I would have known now that I shook the hand of the person that I should have been looking up to instead of a lying cheat. We all appreciate this unbelievable information that your telling us Mike. It looks like this has been eating at you for 20 years or so. I bet you feel better now getting it all off your chest. You have got to go to TrikeFest next year and tell all your stories. Heck, nobody will probably even bring their trikes, they'll just be sitting in a big circle all weekend listening to your racing stories.....lol.

[petesatc]

Hey Mike
((DON'T BYPASS THE WORD FILTER)) you got the bum deal ....can't believe honda would stoop so low..... why did they want golden balls Hart to win over you? it changes all my childhood memorys of Hart from hero to CHEAT!!!!!
dude keep the story's coming....this is the best thread EVER on the forum so interesting...
thanks
Pete :D

[RichinMO]

We should petition the AMA to open an investigation and give the true champion his due. That's the craziest stuff I've ever heard of, stole your trailer and then the top-end off your bike?!?!? You had to have an incredible sense of self control if you didn't just start splitting skull around that shop.

[Yamahauler]

Wow, I can't believe they did that to you. Do you know where Marty is now? I dont know how he sleeps at night.

[Jeb]

Great Stuff CoeShow! I feel for ya.

Hey, in addition to the internal Honda team strife, I'd like to hear the inside take about the strife between Honda and Kawasaki over the 200cc class. Seems like Kawi used to fuss about Honda's 200R actually being a "works" trike, while the 200 Tecate was a production model that was sleeved down? Did Honda actually have an unfair advantage? Did the 200R technically "bend" the production only rule?

Any views on that issue?

[mad_max]

WOW! ............man Mike it sure sounds like Honda had Hart on a pedestal. Why him?

You deserve the title.

I think I'll retract my previous statement about Honda being the best team ever.

Thanks for setting the record straight!

[atcmatt]

Great read Mike. Thankyou very much.

Matt

[bigredhead]

I'd still like to hear about your thoughts on the TIGERS.....

please ?

[Old 179]

Dang, wish I done this sooner

1985 AATVA Marty Hart (Honda) Nationals
250-Pro

Tacoma, Wa 1-05
1) Coe 2) J. White 3) Marty Hart 4) Baker 5) Dunlap 6) Luce 7) Parson 8) Neary 9) Anderson 10) Ruppert
Coe-20points (Based on 1985-AATVA rules and up to 20 rider field.)
Hart-13

Lake George NY 2-10
1)J. White 2) Cardinale 3) Coe 4) Mendenhall 5) Edwards 6) Levesque 7) C. White 8) Roatz 10) Waterman 11) Weaver 12) Ouimet NO HART!
Coe- 33
Hart-13

Hialeah Fla. 4-06
1) Hart 2)J. White 3) Gentry 4) Mendenhall 5) Coe 6) Neary 7) Helter 8) Dunlap 9) Page 10) Anderson
Coe-43
Hart-33

Porterville Ca. 5-25
1) Hart 2)Mendenhall 3)Finley 4) Coe 5) Gentry 6)C. White 7) Olmsted 8) Luce 9)Savinski
10) Hunsaker
Coe -54
Hart-53

Liberal KS 6-01
1)Hart 2)Madole 3)J. White 4)Baker 5)Coe 6)Mendenhall 7)Nevil 8)Luce 9)Finley 10) Farrier
Hart-73
Coe-64

Boyd Tx 6-22
1)Mendenhall 2)Baker 3)Berry 4)Coe 5)Gentry 6)Finley 7)J. White 8)Farrier 9)Madole 10)Crews NO HART!
Coe 75
Hart 73

Little Valley NY 7-06/07
1)J, White 2)Mendenhall 3)Nevil 4)Page 5)Weaver 6)Hart 7)Coe 8)Baker 9)Ruple 10)Trey
Coe -83
Hart-82

Columbus OH
1)Hart 2)J. White 3)Coe 4)Gentry 5)Mendenhall
Hart-102
Coe-95

Hurricane Mills Tn 8-31, 9-01
MX
1)Coe (2-1) 2)Hart (1-2) 3) J. White (3-3) 4)Trey (4-4) 5)Nevil (8-5) 6)Luce (7-6) 7)Mailloux
8)Holbert (13-7) 9)Weaver (11-10) 10)Sulzberger (10-11)
Hart 118
Coe 115

H.S. ( DirtWheels , ATV News , 3Wheeler mentions this controversy)
1)Luce 2)Hart 3)Coe 4)Trey 5)Mailloux 6) Patton 7)Gentry 8)Weaver 9)Jones 10)Fox
Hart 134*
Coe 128

Colorado Springs Co 9-14/15
1)Coe 2)J. White 3)Hart 4)Gentry 5)Nevil 6)Luce 7)Finley 8)Farrier 9)Matthews 10)Patton
Coe 148
Hart 147*

San Jose Ca 10-05
1)Hart 2) Finley 3)Coe 4)C. White 5)Sanders 6)Weaver 7)Luce 8)Burman 9)Nevil 10)Conover
Hart 167*
Coe 161

Final 1985 AATVA Grand National Championship Series (11-28-85 ATV News)

Hart 145
White 130
Coe 121
Mendendall 93
Luce 69

Does't add up, Does it????????????????????????

Source from ATV News except Columbus results (3Wheeler)
Running points based on up to 20 rider field by myself
* represents hare scrambles controversy points

[Mr. Sandman]

Welcome to the board Mike, I've been a long time fan of your's and all the rest of the Team Honda guys from back in the day (not so much a Hart fan anymore though). And to think that someone questioned your authenticity of you being who you say you are. Just reading your stories confirms it as no one could make up this kind of stuff even if they tried. Maybe the "San Jose Slide Show" as Dirt Wheels called it should have been called the "San Jose Points Circus"!

Now a question for you; When did you last race 3 wheelers? It seems I recall seeing you race or test as a privateer on a 3 wheeler at Glen Helen, CA back in '87-'89 before the AMA dismantled the 3 wheel classes altogether. It wasn't a sanctioned race, just a typical Sunday CRC race.

[CoeShow]

Hey everybody,

Marty DNF'd at least 2 races and SHOULD have been DQ'd at the woods race.

But understand me on this!

I have no ill feelings toward Marty Hart!!. He was/is a talented rider. Put yourself in his position. Everyone at Honda was bending over backward for him. It must have felt quite good at the time.

It all started in 1984 when Wes McCoy (team ATC manager) hired Paul Turner to develop the engines for the team, and also FORMER motocross team mechanic Steve Carter to be the mechanic for Marty and myself. No team riders had ever had a mechanic before. We all had to wrench on our trikes ourselves. I did, Dean did, everybody did.

Marty hadn't yet earned the sponsors and top engine tuner deals that the rest of the team members had. While he was getting some support from 3B Lightning Products (one of my original tuners) Marty had didn't have quite the support as some of the Team Honda riders. He instantly fell into favor with Paul and Steve. The stage was set! They became their own team!

At the start of the 85 season, Honda Mangement laid down this law.

You must abandon ALL sponsors to be eligable to sign a contract allowing you to ride for Honda.

THIS WAS CRAZY! I and most other racers then and now have a working relationship that benefits the sport. I had many long term sponsors that I had to go to and say, " I'm sorry, but I can't endorse your product anymore" Think about that! NO OUTSIDE SPONSORS! HONDALINE PRODUCTS ONLY. From apparel to oils to tires to engines, everything. This never sat well with me. Many folks compared me to Bob Hannah for always speaking my mind no matter the circumstances. This outspoken way of mine likely put me in poor favor with management because I called it as I saw it! There was NO team at Team Honda during the 1985 season. I was doomed from the start. Even though I was winning some of the races, Marty HAD to win the championship at all costs, simple as that. Was I getting inferior performance parts from Paul Turner? You bet!

I did not want to lose any of my sponsors and felt that without their support in the previous years, my success at the races would have been less. I felt that I OWED THEM! It has been one of the hardest things I have ever done to this day. But for Marty it worked out perfectly. He didn't have as much support until the 1985 season. Now he had ALL of the support and then some. So, can you blame HIM? No.

I think Honda would have found an excuse to fire me except that some how aginst all their internal, mechanical, AND psychological efforts, I was somehow still winning and finishing well at the races. It was frustrating them as much as they were frustrating me. And with Marty's sometimes poor results, I believe they needed me as a saftey net just in case.

My resistance and "outspokeness" towards this arrangement is what led to much of the focus toward Marty. I never felt that what they were doing was right, and it was by no means a TEAM EFFORT. Curtis Sparks also felt as I did. Honda (Bruce Ogilvy) treated Curtis poorly during the 1985 season as well.

I actually did an interview with Tom "Wolfman" Webb who was writing for Dirtwheels magazine at the time. Honda Management got ahold of the draft prior to it going to print, and informed Tom that if the interview went to print, I would be FIRED INSTANTLY! Well, I wanted to race and Tom pulled the plug on the interview. I would love to have him print it now!! It was basically what I have been telling you all now.

Honda's attempt at molding a "team" was to make it more like a baseball team. Honda management wanted the MACHINE to be in the limelight , NOT the RIDER. They wanted to make us all be seen and not heard. If some one got out of line (like me) they could be replaced like on a baseball team. Everyone looks the same, runs the same stuff, and its all about Honda, nothing else. The riders names change, but hopefully the results remain the same. HONDA WINS! This might also mean NO GIANT SALARIES FOR THE RIDERS!

Secondly, the Paul Turner stuff I was getting was slow and IMHO, Steve Carter didn't know much about 3 wheelers or tuning.. My bikes ran like crap and it soon became evident to me that I was a better tuner than Steve, and I told him so. Our relationship was strained from the beginning and he went to management and proclaimed he was only going to wrench for Marty. This all went down ugly as Marty lost his fuel tank at a Micky Thompson race. Steve proclaimed wrenching for 2 riders was too much and that he ONLY wanted to work with Marty. Hey, this was fine by me! Honda "borrowed" Chuck Miller to be my mechanic and Chuck was/is awesome. He also knew we were getting the shaft as far as performance parts went. He was also in the prime of his racing career and it was difficult for him to split time to wrench for me and still be competitive in his own racing. He still did an amazing job.

At the races in 1985, Marty was suffering from too many poor finishes to win the title.
His tank flew off at one race (DNF), and I think his radiator hose came lose at another race(DNF) and then the woods race. He was still winning too though. He was good everywhere, but seemed to excell on the flat tracks.

Again, Marty was/is an excellent rider. But a lot of luck is necessary sometimes as well, and he was having some bad luck in 85. Honda was determined that Marty was going to be champion no matter what because I guess he was their "yes man" and I was still bucking the so called
"Honda only system".

So they changed the points system at least twice so that he would ultimately become the points champion. Like I said, The AMA will inform you that they have NO record of the 1985 race points system, and the employees at the AMA seem to really not want to be helpful when asking for data on that series.

Mike

[CoeShow]

Mr Sandman,

I never raced or rode a 3 wheeler after the 1985 Baja 1000 in November 1985. By early 1986 the writing was on the wall that 3 wheeler racing was on the way out and that quads were to be the "only" race in town.

Since I still felt that I was in the prime of my racing career, I did what I felt was necessary and started racing a Suzuki LT250 for DG Performance and all of my previous sponsors were there to help me out again. I can tell you that racing was FUN again!!

Suzuki initially made a huge effort to race the quads, but it only lasted for a single season. I won many races on my Suzuki! Gary Denton and other quad riders had some epic battles. Gary Denton, like Jimmy White, was a master of the start.

By late 1986, Yamaha contracted me to race the soon to be released Banshee at the Baja 1000. Team Yamaha went 1-2 in that race. Yamaha continued to support my racing endeavors through the 1988 race season. I believe I was the last, full Factory sponsored ATV Racer at the time.

Yamaha Motor Corporation was by far the nicest, most professional team I ever worked for hands down. Keith McCarty, you are still the man. Honda sure could learn some lessons from you!

BUT, my favorite ATV of all was my last short course 1986 Honda ATC 250R! Or was it my Pikes Peak winning Banshee??

[CoeShow]

BigRedHead,

I never really thought(at the time) that the Tigers were ever much comparison to a Honda. I know they put on a small effort and team, but I can't recall if they ever were truely competitive.

I don't think anyone racing a Tiger EVER beat me in a race!

I never rode one, so I can't give you any data on performance or handling.

Sorry, but thats all I can say about them.

Mike

[CoeShow]

Jeb,

To me, the 200 class turned into a real mess. I don't understand how it got so controversial because I tried to concentrate on my racing the 250 and open classes.

In reality, and by the AMA rules, 2 stroke 200cc trikes should not have been allowed to race against the 4 strokes to begin with.

Curtis and other 4 stroke 200cc riders were instantly at a disadvantage against a sleeved down Tecate. Look at todays MX racers. A 4 stroke is allowed DOUBLE the 2 strokes displacement! Curtis and other 4 stroke guys SHOULD have been able to race bored out ATC 350X's aginst the 2 strokes!!

The Honda 2 stroke 200's were clearly "works" like, and were faster than anything in their class, and nearly as fast as our 250's!! Steve Wright was never talented enough to ride this trike to it's potential, (IMHO) and thats why the Kawasaki guys were still more than competitive in that class.

[mad_max]

Mike,

Do you know what became of the ATC's when Honda dismantled the race team?
Were they junked? I saw a pic of what was supposedly a former Team Honda race ATC and the information with the pic said that the guy who raced it (forget the name but it wasnt Sundahl ;) ) was allowed to buy it from Honda when they quit racing.
Do you remember if this was a common occurrence?

Thanks for the great stories!
Max

[250rAL]

Mike, knowing what you know now, would you have stayed with your sponsors and not raced for Honda?

[CoeShow]

mad_max,

There were a few Honda employees that were able to purchase used and former ATC team 3 wheelers. As I recall they were not available to the general public. Many were disposed of too. (crushed) Now they would be considered a score! But at the time these trikes were definately USED HARD AND PUT AWAY DIRTY.

250rAl,

If I would have known EARLIER, most definately. The factory teams always want to get the contract negotiations and budgets set well in advance of the racing calendar.

Honda knew that if they sprang the surprise of having to run all Hondaline accessories like they did, Kawasaki would have already been set and unable to support another rider or two. Yamaha and Suzuki were not players in the world of 3 wheeler racing. It was Honda vs. Kawasaki only.

It was smart business for Honda, but unprofessional towards the riders. Like others have mentioned in these posts, I was living out a childhood fantasy of someday riding for the BIG TEAM. But like in Ricky Carmichael's and Jeremy McGrath's cases too, Honda was really pushing as to what they felt was necessary to get their moneys worth out of the racing team/riders.

Even though I got the shaft on not winning the title in 1985, up until that time I was living out my wildest dream! I have lifelong memories and the good times far outweigh the bad!

For other kids it may be like playing baseball for the New York Yankees! There was really nothing I/we could do but comply if we wanted to race for Honda in 1985.

[Dammit!]

BUT, NO quad was ever as fast or as cool or handled as well as my Honda ATC 250R!!

I think that needs to be quoted again.


BUT, NO quad was ever as fast or as cool or handled as well as my Honda ATC 250R!!

Oh hell one more time.


BUT, NO quad was ever as fast or as cool or handled as well as my Honda ATC 250R!!

:w00t: :TrikesOwn

[catfish]

Mike, you said that you wished that the interview would be published now...... would it be inappropriate to get Dirtwheels to do an interview with you and expose all this now? I know you feel better getting it all off your chest here, but what about letting everyone know what happened. I'm sure there's many people out there that raced back then that still follow the racing scene and don't know about this site. It would just be nice to read all of this in a magazine. You may not want all the publicity, but it may work out good for you. You can't never tell what might come out of it. Although, I hope it don't bring up any legal issues. In Honda's contract, did they say that you couldn't talk about any of the going's on within the Team? You know, like exposing any secrets and such. Surely after all this time it won't matter. Another thing though, Honda probably has a big influence on Dirtwheels, so they probably wouldn't print it anyway.

[Curtis-Tecate3]

Mike,

Just curious after re-reading your posts..

"The cylinder that we chose for this race was a VERY custom reworked WORKS cylinder. The transfer ports were all epoxied up and recontoured and were VISIBLY modified. There was a boat load of work done to this cylinder! Chuck Miller my mechanic (and now current Honda Race Team Manager!) was convinced that the trike was clearly the best we had had for the season. The stopwatch doesn't lie! "

I assume that the "WORKS" stuff came direct from Japan but you mentioned that is had been "reworked". Can you share the details of this particular motor. You mentioned that Harry Klemm had been secretly cooperating with you that season and I was curious if he was involved.

Also...
Regarding the Tom "Wolfman" Webb story/interview. Do you think he still has a draft after all these years? I guess that since he is still involved in the industry at Dirt Rider magazine that he would probably prefer not to participate in resurecting the story anyway.

Thanks again for all of your input.

Curtis.

[Curtis-Tecate3]

Mike,

A few more questions when you have the time.

Can you elaborate a bit more on your statement below regarding Curtis Sparks.

"My resistance and "outspokeness" towards this arrangement is what led to much of the focus toward Marty. I never felt that what they were doing was right, and was by no means a TEAM EFFORT. Curtis Sparks also felt as I did. Honda screwed Curtis every chance they got too."

I idolized Team Honda back then when I was in my mid-teens. Curtis Sparks happened to be my favorite rider at that time since I had a 200X and his first name obviously helped too.! I am curious since it sounds like his treatment may have been similar to yours.

Last question for now.
What other riders/competitors/industry people were you closest with back then and do you still maintain friendships with them today?

Thanks,

Curtis.

[the Outlaw]

Mike,

It's good to here from fellow rider from the "old" days. The fact that your a fomer Team Honda rider is that much better.

Myself I've been on three wheels since the 70's. In the mid 80's (85/86) I had just started racing 3wheelers and turned pro in 86 unfortunatly like you said by then the writing was on the wall. Being from back east I never had a chance to go up against you or the other top riders and that always left a sour taste in my mouth.

I read in one of your post you were working on restoring a "racing" 250R. After racing MX bikes from 89-99 I too am restoring my "old" 250R. It's not to far differant then what you rode for Team Honda. Not only do I have the short track tank kit, but I also have Mugen adjustable forks and rear shock. My cylinder was ported to some of the same specs you guys ran and I run a modified airbox like your old R's.

I was wondering if you had thought about attending Trikefest anytime?
I would love a chance to "ride" against you on one of there MX tracks.

As for your dealings with the AMA I too can relate. During my motocross days I had my share of run ins with the AMA about series points.

You also mentioned some kind words about Yamaha and some not so kind words about Honda and the AMA. While admittedly I never rode for either Team, Both have played "the game" with the AMA.

In 1977 Keith McCarty pulled a dirty trick at the AMA 125 MX nationals and had his rider Bob Hannah pull over so another rider could win the championship. that was/is against the AMA's rules involving "team tatics". then in 1990 Keith complained to the AMA about Suzuki bringing its 250 class riders into the 125 class to help Guy Cooper.

In 1985/86 Yamaha complained to the AMA about honda's works bikes and got the "Production" rule instated. Then in 1985/86 yamaha then went to the AMA and wanted a "works" bike exemption rule so they could race thier 400 four stroke against 250 two strokes.

Yamaha also went to the AMA with what I think was the worst decission ever made and got the 500 class dropped.

In 2004 The whole Yamaha team got cought useing illegal Gas at Supercross.

Not that Honda is any better.

As far as Marty Hart. Am I mistaken or was he not a threat when he rode the 3B lighting Yamahas? And is that not how he got his Team Honda ride?

Thanks.

[CoeShow]

Hello 3 wheeler fans!

I am enjoying this very much! I will try to answe some more questions.

Catfish,

I have tried to get ahold of Tom Webb. Not about the old interview, but to see how he was doing and to possibly go riding together. If he DID still have it the interview, I would be fine if it was printed now.

There wasn't anything in "print" about interviews per say in my contract, but I was verbally repremanded for the things I had said and brought to light, and was warned that if the interview was printed, I WOULD be terminated!!

Curtis-Tecate,

The "works" cylinders were from Japan. The transfer port area was re-designed.
As you guessed, Paul Turner got in there and really modified them even more. The modification was to lengthen the transfer port tract/timing.

Where the stock transfer ports look almost verticle from the outside, these were clearly "puffed" outward. I think he was just copying the Kawasaki design of the time. The Kawasaki transfer ports looked this way. Check one out and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Curtis WAS treated the same as were all the riders that wanted to ride for Honda in 1985. "No outside sponsors" Curtis was my teammate for all of the off-road races in 1985 except for the Baja 1000. We dominated the open class and won many overalls.

Curtis NEVER got any thing from Paul Turner when he was to ride in the 2 stroke classes. Honda always made him come up with his own stuff.


I rode and won the 250 class in the Baja 1000 in 1985 riding with Steve Wright and Tracy Dickson. We were the "B" team that year. Marty, Wax, and I think Curtis were the "A" team in that race. Paul Turner, Steve Carter and the riders all spent many hours building the FASTEST thing they could muster up.


Tom Gildea had a better idea. We had our desert racer all modified and it was quick, but not fast, know what I mean? It would outrun our prerunners (stock) but after it was wide open, the prerunners would catch up and pass it!
We started adding stock parts back to the race trike. When all was said and done, it was basically all stock except for a CR250 silencer! We SMOKED the "A" team and finishjed first overall!

Guess I got off track there a bit. sorry.

I have been in contact with Donny Luce as of late, Tommy Gaian, Jimmy White (to a lesser extent) Daryll Bassani, Mark Dooley(DG) Chuck Miller, and Curtis Sparks. I have occaisionally bumped into Dean Sundahl, Mark Waxeldorfer, Marty Hart (once) Steve Wright, and even some of the Motocrossers from El Cajon that were fast in that era like Rick Johnson, Broc Glover, and Ronny Lechein. I have even seen and spoken to Dean Kirsten of 3wheeling Magazine a few times at car events (swapmeets and shows)

I was closest to Curtis Sparks. Even though we didn't do that much together other than at the races, He was an excellent competitor and very fast on a 250 too. Curtis could ride as well as anybody out there, and he beat me and everybody at the races on 250's on a few occaisions. HE CHOSE to ride the 200x. He was all about the 4 stroke. We liked many of the same things and liked each others company.

As for the "competition" I probably had the greatest respect for Jimmy White. He was a wiley competitor and most times unbeatable off the gate. He had/has excellent skills and obviously won races. Donny Luce, Steve Mendenhall, , Rodney Gentry, Eddie Sanders, there was alot of talent out there.

I never felt that flat track racing required as much skill as in the other forms of ATC/V racing. I always wanted to utilize ALL of the suspension travel!
The trikes kept getting longer and longer wheel travel, but it seemed as though the tracks kept getting flatter and flatter.........

At many of the flat track races the start is key because most of the ones on the circuit were one liners. All of the turns seemed to be hairpins, and even though you might be MUCH faster than the competitor in front of you, you can't pass as long as he sticks to the inside. VERY FRUSTRATING.

Outlaw,

You have far more experience with Team Yamaha and Keith McCarty than I !!
As far as the ATV racing went, it was first class all the way. and by comparison to the politics at Honda, Team Yamaha was clearly a TEAM effort. That may explain the Bob Hannah results.

Marty did have some spirited rides on his 3B Yamahas, but was really not a "threat" as Yamaha was not entering the 3 wheeler racing scene in any official capacity. I also raced for 3B before Marty!! I was going to race Bob "Ace" Williams's 250 Yamaha at Riverside in 1981. He had just hooked up with Honda and was building a 450 powered trike to race there. The 250 Yamaha he built was awesome and I know I could have easily won on the Yamaha, it was VERY FAST. Bob unfortunately had his accident, and many things changed in an instant.

I also raced the Husqvarna 3 wheeler during this same time and things looked promising for a while. The Baja race that I rode the Husky in was AFTER I raced for Honda just a week or so prior at the Houston Astrodome. We led most of the race but DNF'd. The following Monday, Honda invited me up to join the ATC Team as a permanent member.

Looking back, and like in Marty's case, I think that Honda was initially trying to thwart any viable competition from another manufacturer.

At one Baja Cross event when Marty was riding the same 250 3B Yamaha that I had raced earlier, he won the first moto on Saturday mostly because the YZ powered trike was so much faster than our 1982 250R's.

The next day he was leading as well but crashed VERY HARD!! It was at this time that Honda decided to start lending him support to try and get Yamaha out of the picture. ATV News(Lance Bryson) always hyped anyone or anything other than Honda to stir up controversy AND to try and get the other manufacturers involved in the sport!! It was working!!

Honda was trying more to remove other brands from 3 wheel racing as much as possible! ANY publicity of any other brand was unacceptable! It was easier to "hire" Marty off of the Yamaha, and Eddie Sanders off of his Suzuki, than to have to share the lime light with the other manufacturers. The Kawasaki team was the "enemy" to Honda ATC manager Wes McCoy. He hated these guys. I could never get into the mindset and always felt that competition would improve the sport.

The Honda ATC team had MANY members at various times under different "letter" support. There was the "A" "B" and "C" teams, and lesser support for many other racers back then.

[NOS_350X]

Does the names Doug or Gary Meniffee ring a bell? I'm friends with there kids and they used to race pro back in the day with Eddie Sanders. One of them still has there race bike from back then. But from my understanding they wernt into mx more flattrack and TT.

[CoeShow]

NOS 350X,

Eddie Sanders lived in Visalia, near one of the finest dirt tracks in California, Porterville.

I don't recall racing racing any Meniffee's, but that doesn't mean that we never raced at some event some where together.

Mike

[mad_max]

The Honda ATC team had MANY members at various times under different "letter" support. There was the "A" "B" and "C" teams, and lesser support for many other racers back then.

Mike,

Can you give us an example of how "A" "B" and "C" teams differed?
I'd heard that some Honda riders were paid while others were lucky to get a few parts.

Also, I'm curious how you got along with Dean Sundahl, seems like he got alot of press especially for desert racing.

Thanks
Max

[Old 179]

Mike,

If it was possible to have 10 identical tuned trikes for mx and flat tracking. Who would you pick as the most talented riders and how they would place?

Possible riders: (no order) Ace Williams, Jimmy White,Mike Coe, Curtis Sparks,Marty Hart,Dean Sundahl,
Others: Rod Gentry, Mickey Dunlop, Steve Mendenhall, Greg Baker, John Neary,Donnie Luce, Mike Chester Mark Weixeldorfer, Eddie Sanders, Dan Lamey, Chris White, Tracy Dickson,

[edog]

Curtis Sparks would get my vote...if it were a 200X. :w00t:

[83200e]

I was reading old179's post and saw Mike Chester's name.Wasn't he the one that got hurt pretty bad during a race? What ever happened with him?

[Old 179]

He so happen to have been injured in a benefit race (1982) for the injured "Ace Williams" (1981). Same type of injury as far as I know. Don't forget, Dan Lamey meet the same fate up in New England area back in 1983 doing a bit for a "tv" film crew. I believe he was paralylse waist down. Wander what became of the three?

[CoeShow]

Mike Chester did suffer a broken neck during a "benefit" race for Bob "Ace" Williams. He was paralyzed from the chest down. I have not heard from him or about him for many years.

Bob Williams was comatose from the injuries he sustained while testing his race trike prior to Riverside 1982. He passed away a few years ago, never coming out of his coma.

Dan Lamey actually has his own Hi Perfromance shop in the LA area of California. He has done testing and modification work for Yamaha's R&D group. He was involved with the YZF450 Quad engine development to make the engine better suited for quads from the motorcycle tune.

[mad_max]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoeShow
The Honda ATC team had MANY members at various times under different "letter" support. There was the "A" "B" and "C" teams, and lesser support for many other racers back then.



Mike,

Can you give us an example of how "A" "B" and "C" teams differed?
I'd heard that some Honda riders were paid while others were lucky to get a few parts.

Thanks
Max

[CoeShow]

mad_max,

I will try to shed some light on the support levels.

As an example, I was very fortunate to be a fully sponsored "A team" rider. I was paid a handsome salary form Honda, and Honda also paid large bonus money for placing in certain races as "incentive" money.

There was predetermined bonus money for each race and for finishing positions of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places. The actual amount of these bonuses was also predetermined depending on the exposure level of the race itself. Nationals, Micky Thompson events, and SCORE Off Road were the highest exposure and largest bonuses.

Honda also paid for all of my expenses, hotels, rental cars, food, everything.
It was a sweet deal!!

"B" team riders would receive trikes and parts deal, and also a bonus schedule. I don't think the schedule was quite the same payout. Honda might also help out some for travel expenses depending on the event and how the rider performed.

"C" team riders would receive a trike and limited parts support, usually nothing else.

Winning was everything when it came to making the serious money.

Honda was quite generous at times. We would always lend support to racers that needed major parts for repairs at the races, and would always help out time permitting with weld repairs and however we could.

Honda even paid to have Jimmy Whites Kawasaki shipped to Alaska so that he could participate in a major race that was held there. I think he won it too!!

I hope my explanations have helped some.

Mike

[Billy Golightly]

Hey Mike...earlier you said that you guys did some mods to your 250R's that made them more similar to the prototype 500R for flat tracking. Could you tell us what those mods were and what the principle/theory was behind them vs the stock setup?

[CoeShow]

HondaATC,

The mods were done to aid the overall handling of the 250R in ALL aspects, not just for flat tracking.

The steering angle was changed (steeper)
The tank, radiators, and seat were moved forward @1.5"

Thats about it. It made a big difference in handling. The frames were modified by a professional frame builder utilizing a special jig manufactured to allow this work to be done correctly.

The seat was modified to become a "bolt-on" instead of using the quick release mechanism. (It was too far back to be used anyway)

These modifications were done to put more weight on the front end. A built 250R with good traction became very difficult to "steer" or keep from wheelying. Starts were difficult to get the holeshot as well for the before mentioned reasons.

A longer swing arm would NOT have provided the same results.

I also used a 350X front end for flat track racing(on 85-86 250R). The steeper fork angle allowed the trike to be turned MUCH easier.

Mike

[Old 179]

Anchorage, Ak Aug. 15-17 1983

8-15 Main results
1) J White 2) Dunlop (218cc 4 stroke) 3) Coe 4) Wax 5) Sundahl
Heats
White, Coe, Dunlop

8-16 Main results
1) J White 2) Dunlop 3) Hart 4) Davis 5) Howard (two locals)
Heats
Dunlop, White, Hart

8-17 Main Results
1) J White 2) Hart 3) Dunlop 4) Wax 5 Brehm

Over all winners
250 Jimmy White $1400
200 Wax $1400

[BigAir660R]

what exactly was the 200R? damn this is some great reading! and everyone wonders why I like trikes so much.

[TrikeKid]

Hello everybody!

My name is Mike Coe. Once upon a time I used to race ATC's for American Honda's factory ATC racing team. I was very fortunate to be able to race for a living for a number of years.

It was an incredable time racing ATC's in the early through mid 80's!

I consider myself very lucky to have been part of the BIG RED TEAM of that era. I raced for Honda for 5 years until they dismantled the team at the end of 1985.

Even though Honda did race in 1986, The ATV racing "scene" was unfortunately dying a quick death. It was also a very difficult time for someone who was in the racing prime of his life (me) and didn't know what else to do BUT race!

I now am the proud father of 3 children. The oldest of which is now 16. She is the one who actually turned me on to this site! I have many fond memories of my days racing ATC's and will happily share them with you!

Any one that has any questions or needs some info about something please ask. I started out replying to a post by Dean Kirsten, former 3 Wheeling magazine guru. Dean was always a class act whatever he was doing. I wish I could say the same for myself.

Anyway, hello again! I'll read ya soon I hope. Till then...................

Mike
I figured you'd show up here some time:welcome:

[Billy Golightly]

Very cool info on the 250R mods Mike, I appreciate the info. I've already got a CR500 drag trike and I'm hoping to sometime either the end of this year or beginning of next start working on a CR500 conversion for flat tracking. I would have never thought of using 350x front forks and tripples, but it makes sense. Thanks for the tips.

[CoeShow]

BigAir660R,

The ATC200R was a 200cc 2 stroke race specific three wheeler built by Honda to compete in the 200 class of the era.

Honda built them because the ATC200X was no match for a de-bored Kawasaki Tecate 250.

They were quite frankly "works trikes". They were nothing short of "trick" in every sense. Engine, brakes, axle, all state of the art and industry exclusive all the way!

[BigAir660R]

so do you have any idea what kinda specs the motor had? It was a honda 200 2-stroke. Wish i could compair it powerwise to something. Do you think it owuld be similar to the yamaha 200 2-stoke thats in the blaster? Do you happen to have any pics of one of these also, maybe you can post them whenever you have the stuff to do it. I now everyone would be intersted in seeing one as i personally think is the rarest trike ever. Thanks for the reply also.

[firefirefire90]

These are in the vintage racing pics page. I do not believe it was a honda motor but a Euro motor. It was liquid cooled. Talk to MyMint, one of his mates Tommy Gain used to race the 200R. My best bet is that it is a lot like the KTM200cc motor with a trick pipe. All i could come up with.

[CoeShow]

BigAir660,

I don't recall any of the particular engine dimensions (bore x stroke) I don't know if Honda built the engine specifically for the trike or if the engine was originally from another model. It was water-cooled.

The trikes weighed in at @200 lbs! That was VERY light! The engines were very powerful, and the trikes were nearly as fast as our race 250's. The suspension wasn't the longest or biggest. As I recall, similar to what the 200x's had.

I have seen some pictures of them here on this site. Look at the vintage race stuff from the home page. One of the coolest features was the swingarm. It was aluminum and both the sprocket and brake disc were mounted "inboard" of the axle bearings / mounts rather than "outboard" like the 250 and all other 3 and 4 wheelers.

I believe this design allows the swingarm to be stronger than other designs

[BigAir660R]

sweet, 200lbs thats crazy. Thanks for the info

[mad_max]

You gotta love this! Thanks for the info Mike!

[NOS_350X]

BigAir660,
. It was aluminum and both the sprocket and brake disc were mounted "inboard" of the axle bearings / mounts rather than "outboard" like the 250 and all other 3 and 4 wheelers.

I believe this design allows the swingarm to be stronger than other designs
Are you saying it was a dirtbike style swinger with the sproket and roter where the wheel would be? If thats the case would the engine have to be specialy modified to have the sproket closer twards the center of the engine?
Do you know why they wouldnt do this for the 250R?

[Curtis-Tecate3]

Mike, Thanks again for your participation on this board.

Regarding the Factory 200R.
I attended the infamous Hialeah, FL National in 1985 that everyone hated. The 200R that Honda brought to that race had a conventional swingarm unless my eyes deceived me. See the photos on top of this attached page. Sorry for the quality but it was late at night with a crummy old disc camera.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/race.shtml

I also seem to remember that the motor had a "sand cast" finish which would indicate a very limited hand made engine. Some people think that the motor came from some euro dual purpose 2 wheeler but I remember differently. I may be wrong with 20 year old memories though.

Curtis.

[firefirefire90]

I saw a couple of runcan racing 3wheelers, one was using a westcoast. And for the swinger set up, everything looks normal. All the sprockets and such! Maybe i am wrong but those are nice looking macines.

[CoeShow]

Curtis-Tecate,

Some of those pictures are of 125cc race trikes, using alot of 200X parts. The "real" ATC200R's had red tanks and white radiator shrouds. A few of those pics posted are of the 200R's. In those few, you really can't see the rear axle set-up.

You are right about Hialea..... That was one of the worst races I ever attended. Every turn was a 180, or hairpin. A "no-passing" track layout all the way.

Unfortunately, a lot of the flat tracks used for ATV racing even today are this way.

The guy who gets the best start can usually win simply because he can't be passed!! How do you pass when every single turn is a hairpin??

[Billy Golightly]

Mike, did you guys ever use any CR250 parts on the 250Rs? Like ignition componets, engine parts, ect?

[CoeShow]

Honda ATC,

Many of the parts were interchangable between the CR's and ATC's but we never really used any of the CR stuff other than the exhaust silencer.

I did run a CR cylinder on my race bike once. It worked great until Paul Turner ported it. After he "fixed it", it never ran as well as it did when it was stock (the cylinder). I think the cylinder was from the 1984 model CR. It had 7 head nuts instead of 6. The water cooling design wasn't quite as reliable as the newer models, but the newer ones wouldn't "bolt on". Honda altered the cylinder base bolt pattern slightly. Just enough to keep engine parts from interchanging any more.

[Billy Golightly]

Mike, I did a little research on the 84 model CR250's and found that they had the powervalve setup on them. It looks like it bolted onto the outside of the exhaust port on the cylinder. (http://www.scooterhelp.com/moto.barrels/honda.cr250.84_5.sm.jpg) Did you just remove the external powervalve and use a normal 250R exhaust flange or was there another process to it? This would be a pretty cool mod to do on an R.

Billy

[CoeShow]

HondaATC,

The "powervalve" or "ATAC" system if I remember correctly, was a chamber located on the left side of the cylinder. The system did not operate as designed for the CR, but the cylinder was still a giant improvement over the stock ATC cylinder and anything I was getting from Paul Turner at that time.

Like I mentioned in the previous post, Paul "ported" the cylinder and it made LESS power! Steve Carter then reassembled the top end using ATC rings which were chrome against this cylinder which was also chrome plated or nikasil. It self destructed during a National at Liberal Kansas in 1985.

If these cylinders are run "as is" the port timing is very good. They do not need to be modified if the correct pipe is used. This set-up was very fast when I originally used it.

NOS_350X,

I never looked at it like you mentioned, but yes, the ATC200R's rear axle arrangement was very similar to how a motorcycle rear wheel is designed.

But even the motorcycle doesn't have to have the countersprocket located anywhere different. Kawasaki's and Yamaha 3 wheeler engines will interchange with their motorcycle counterparts. In fact, Kawasaki 500 and YZ 490-500 engines use the same motor mount sizes and locations so these engines will "bolt in."

I feel if the 3 wheeler era didn't come to the demise that it did, Honda would have brought this design to market on the 250's. The ATC200R was really a "works" 3 wheeler! No question about it! There were a number of re-designed and improved elements on these trikes that no doubt would have trickled down to the production 3 wheelers in the next year or so "if" they hadn't been banned......

Should this thread be moved to Trikesylvania??

[Howdy]

Should this thread be moved to Trikesylvania??
Good point, I think it should be moved. And I can / will do that for ya.

While I haven't replied until now, I have been watching and reading this thread. I ( and many others ) are honored to have you here and for all the details you have brought forth. Other than owning a few Polaris 3 wheelers I'm not a 2 stoke person. But I still find your information VERY interesting. I love to learn new Old tricks and information. Keep up the good work!!
Howdy

[ScottZJ]

Mike,
You have truely made one killer thread to read. Its great seeing old school racers that dont mind talking to some wanna b's haha.
Did you grow up in San Diego area? I lived near Westminster and grew up there. Although I wasnt really big into 3 wheelers back (I skated for G&S back then), I do remember a time before once race, they had Curtis Sparks and a few others out in front of the huge honda trailer signing autographs. I think this was around 1984 or so. I do remember them trying to push Curtis in the lime light and shy away from the other racers.
If your kids wanted to ride 3 wheelers now, would you encourage this? Thanks for all the great info and just wish we had some pics. I know back in the days, cameras werent something that everyone always had, so I understand not having tons of pics....................peace

Scott

[edog]

CoeShow,do you have any pics of you,and Curtis Sparks on your machines?

[CoeShow]

Edog,

Most all of the pictures I have were cut out of magazines by me, my family, or friends. I have a couple of good sized photo albums with many pictures, but no way yet to scan them and link them to this site.

I do have a couple of Curtis and I. One is of us accepting a 1st place trophy after the Parker 400 off-road race, and another of me punishing him (kidding) during a 200 race!

ScottZJ,

Thanks for your kind post. All 3 of my kids have ridden 3 wheelers. They all enjoyed an ATC70 during their formative years. They have all moved up to bigger and better things now... Like I mentioned above, I do have some cool photos, just no way to load them yet.........

Howdy,

I am having a blast here on 3 wheeler world...........

Keep on with the questions......... I am looking forward to them.

Mike

[Fox250R]

Welcome to the board mike! If you wanna take a spin on a 250R i'll let you ride mine :)

[Billy Golightly]

HondaATC,

The "powervalve" or "ATAC" system if I remember correctly, was a chamber located on the left side of the cylinder. The system did not operate as designed for the CR, but the cylinder was still a giant improvement over the stock ATC cylinder and anything I was getting from Paul Turner at that time.

Like I mentioned in the previous post, Paul "ported" the cylinder and it made LESS power! Steve Carter then reassembled the top end using ATC rings which were chrome against this cylinder which was also chrome plated or nikasil. It self destructed during a National at Liberal Kansas in 1985.

If these cylinders are run "as is" the port timing is very good. They do not need to be modified if the correct pipe is used. This set-up was very fast when I originally used it.



This sounds like a really good mod to do with the waterpumper Rs. I'm gonna guess since the cylinder was from an mx bike it shifted the power more to the top of the RPM range then the stock cylinder, is that true? Also you mentioned a pipe for that cylinder, did you use a modified ATC/CR pipe combination was an all new cone style pipe constructed? Thanks for your time Mike.

[CoeShow]

The cylinder didn't really move the power band up. It made more power at all RPM's. Of course it made more peak as well, so I would say it made for a wider than stock power band.

After my engine went south during the National at Kansas that year while running the CR top-end, I was never allowed to use it again. ONLY Paul Turner modified top ends were allowed. They were all junk except for the "one that got away" that we had for the San Jose National at the end of the year. That one ripped..........

[mad_max]

Mike,

I read a post by Dean Kirsten that talked about how uptight Wes McCoy was.
You mentioned that Wes was present at San Jose (at the teardown of your "good" engine.) Was this the way he was or was he this way due to Honda management?

[CoeShow]

mad_max,

I raced for the ATC team for nearly 5 seasons. In the beginning Wes was much more likeable and easier going. It wasn't until Kawasaki formed a team to race did he start to get irritable. The hiring of Bruce Ogilvie was also a HUGE mistake, along with bringing Paul Turner on board.

I heard from an excellent source that Paul Turner was actually FIRED from the MX team!! I don't recall what the reasons were, (nor do I care) but the politics and "TEAM" really started to fall apart starting in late 1984.

Wes did many honorable things and was clearly a mover and shaker at Honda. I hear he has recently retired from Honda. he must have been there for 30+ years in many different capacities.

I always respected him as a person, but he also did some "odd" things at the races and at the office. I wish him a happy retirement.

Like many things in life, hindsight is 20/20. Wes (like myself) may have done things entirely different if he had the chance to do them over.

The things that Bruce Ogilvie did were unforgivable. I have 0 respect for that man.

[Dammit!]

The things that Bruce Ogilvie did were unforgivable. I have 0 respect for that man.

Tell us how you really feel, Mike. :eek: :lol:

By the way, I believe quite a few of us are going to be at Glamis for Thanksgiving weekend. You should come out (even if it's on a quad or something... we won't laugh... really). :TrikesOwn

[CoeShow]

Dammit!,

I put so many miles riding at Glamis back in the eighties that I am STILL burned out on that area. I used to take my pre-runner with the dual oscars down to Glamis with a 55 gallon drum of premix in my pickup.

We/I would ride almost non stop, day and night until the fuel was gone. Would do that on many a weekend. Now I understand theres no such thing as an "off" weekend.

With so many more dunebuggies and quads sold since I was last there in 88, I can imagine it's pretty crowded these days.

In the mid eighties you could ride sometimes for days and never see anyone else in the whole dune system!! From Gordon's to Glamis!!

Anyway, I don't have much interest to go back to the sand, especially on a holiday weekend, sorry.

I hope you have fun though! Ride safe.

[R Nutt]

Mike,
This is great having you here on this site!
Thats alot of great reading!


One question....Do you Remember this guy?

[CoeShow]

Ido not recognize the person in the picture, but because of the words around the link to the picture I am going to guess that it is Micky Dunlap.

Am I correct??

[R Nutt]

LOL...........Yes its Mickeys face photoshopped onto someone else.

Mickey is a regular poster at Kawieriders.com , He's .....shall i say "different" people over there either like him or cant stand him, theres no in between....

Anyway, i read through the posts and maybe i missed it but what are you doing now, as far as work? are you still involved in the offroad business somewhere?

Dunlap and sparks do motor work, I saw jimmy white this past feburary in indiana at the dealer show.....how about you?

[R Nutt]

One more question for you....
Back in 85, Dirtwheels had a rider of the year poll, 10 riders---

(Coe,Dunlap,Hart,Luce,Sparks,Sundahl,Tokay,Wax,Whi te, and Wright)

And it was up to the readers to vote who will win the Nissan 4x4 king cab.

Who Got it?

[CoeShow]

R Nutt,

I have been working for Solar Turbines Inc. for almost 15 years. Solar is the leading manufacturer of mid size land based turbine engines and compressors.

Our equipment is primarily used as the means of pumping oil and gas through miles of pipeline in the *.S., Middle East, Europe, Alaska, and everywhere else Oil is being drawn out of the ground.

The company grossed over 2 billion last year. I work in the R&D section of the company primarily in the surface engineering department.

If I remember correctly, Jimmy White won the Nissan truck in the contest.

Who will ever know how biased or accurate the results were??

I figured Dean Sundahl was going to win it hands down.

Mike

[mad_max]

I figured Dean Sundahl was going to win it hands down.

Mike

Mike, speaking of Sundahl how did you two get along?

[CoeShow]

Mad Max,

Dean Sundahl and I got along very well. We were neighbors in ElCajon and were also team mates in many off-road races. Dean was one of the first riders to have been selected to be a rider for the ATC team. He had already been with Honda for some time before I was selected to join.

We did many things together besides riding ATC's. I would say that we were pretty good friends for some time. Our desire to win races began to strain our relationship as we ourselves became each others main competition. He wanted to win and so did I.

After I won the 1983 National Championship, we became more distant, and eventually stopped being team mates for off-road races as well. Starting in 1984, Curtis Sparks and I became team mates for all off-road events.

If ever there was one person that deserved to be called "The Best" ATC/ATV rider of all time, Dean would be the person I feel should be selected. He was VERY successful as a racer and amazingly talented on the 3 wheeler. He was instrumental in raising the bar in ATC racing. I learned a lot from him as did many others.

Dean was the "Fast Guy", winning most of the races when I first started racing ATC's. EVERYBODY looked up to Dean Subdahl in the early days of ATC racing.

"KING DEAN" is a perfect salute to this man. He earned this name and I am honored to have known him well. I also am proud to have been one of his riding team mates and main competitors.

Mike

[mad_max]

....Starting in 1984, Curtis Sparks and I became team mates for all off-road events...

When you say "team mates for all off-road events" do you mean that you trade off riding certain sections of the course?

I remember Dean getting a lot of press for his desert racing, nice to know that he is a good guy.

Thanks:beer

[CoeShow]

mad max,

You are correct. Depending on course layout and length, our "teams" would consist of two, and on very long races 3 riders. Each rider would be slated to ride a section usually dividing the mileage up as evenly possible.

On the longer races that ran through the night,(Baja 1000, Vegas to Reno) I would normally ride those sections as I was very comfortable riding at hi speed during night conditions.

Most of the off-road events were two rider affairs. There was at the time only one rider of record, so only one rider would end up as a "points" earner toward the championship.

Mike

[Old 179]

Mike,

You said Dean was the "king of atc". Do you feel that would be true if "Ace" Williams had not been injuried in 1981. I have read he was way ahead of his time.
Based on mags back in 80-81, "Ace" would had been the guy to beat. Then again. these were the same source for the "Wax" build up! You was there and I trust your thoughts over those mags.

[CoeShow]

Old 179,

"ACE" was ahead of the times........ as far as equipment. He was an excellent rider to be sure, but I don't feel he would have been so dominant on equal equipment like what the AMA and other sanctioning bodies would require.

Ace was building one-off YZ powered, fully suspended trikes about the same time that the first ATC250R was introduced. He was friends with Brock Glover, hence the Yamaha parts source early on for 3B lightning products.

Once Honda aquired his sevices he began work on a trick CR450 powered trike.

The rest is history......... When Dean and Wax and Ace would race in the 180cc class before suspension, but they each won races and mixed it up very well. ace was more of an "inovator" and fabricator. Ace won numerous races early with the Yamahas mainly because his trike was so much better than anything around or available!

I would sometimes even enter my 138cc trike into the "open" class sometimes to get more racing in on the race nights. I could mix it up with them and even occaisionally finish ahead of them sometimes while being significantly down on power to their trikes.

Anyway, form being around Ace, Dean, Wax, and everyone else at the races and at the shop, I feel Dean was more focued on racing and winning whereas Ace was more interested in building the fastest and best handling trike that he could use to win on easily.

Ace was the MASTER Fabricator!! I feel (Ace) was in it more for the fun and challenge and for the competition part of it. He got as much satisfaction when his MACHINE won than when he did. I won races while riding his YZ250 powered trike after he was signed to Honda and while he was working on his Honda 450 trike. He was not allowed to ride Yamahas after inking his deal with Honda.

Since my relationship with Honda was still about a year away, I was stoked to ride this YZ powered trike! It was ahead of its tiime. I think I won @5-6 races on it at local race tracks in So.Cal. in late 1980- early1981. My brother bought one of the first ATC250Rs, and Ace got hurt........ No more YZ250 Trike.

If you look on the back cover of the early 3 wheeling magazine's you will see this trike in the 3B-lightning ads. It was SWEEEEET.

Mike




Mike

[Old 179]

Mike,

Thanks for your info on "Ace". Hey, would you remember how he got that knick name? I ran across Dean Kirstens "Are you a whiz or a fizz?" article in their 4th anniversary issue. Another question was which riding spot had the fresh lobster available nearby? A) Glamis B) Pismo C) Cantamar, Baja California. (is it still there?) How about the famous motocross rider that ran a 3-wheeler in the 1981 Baja 1000 , while you rode the ghost to a second place finish with Dickson and McDermott. A) Chuck Sun B) Roger Decoster C) Rex Staten ? Remember what that rear suspension was called on the "ghost"
Speaking of the 180cc trike of Sundahl, they had that and his 84r racer in a comparison of the now and then racers. Very interesting reading! Thanks for your time

[R Nutt]

Speaking of your old team mates.....
Did anyone check out this months Atv Action magazine (i think it was this mag, maybe another), anyway it had an interview with the "King" as they put it, Marty Hart. When i read the article all i thought was this is BS! .....Talking about his Championships and the '85 title.

Any way they had his picture in there and its amazing what twenty years will do to a guy! LOL!.....I was 13 back then reading about you guys and riding my ATC 110...so i guess if you look at me 20 years later at 33 i guess father time really beat the sh!t out of me too!! HAHA

[R Nutt]

You seemed to do alright...........
What hair you lost on top, you gained on your lip...:lol: !

I just thought this was a nice comparison.....No hard feelings :beer

[CoeShow]

Old 179,

There were many stories on how Bob "Ace" Williams got his nickname. I can't say I remember any of them or which one to be true.

Fresh lobster nearby would have to be Cantamar, BC. It's still there.

Motocross racer in the Baja 1000. Hmmmmm. Must have been Chuck Sun?

[chris200x]

I'd like to see what that 138cc trike looked like. what was it a honda 125 or something?

[CoeShow]

R Nutt,

I don't remember if I was sporting a mustache when that photo was taken, or if that is just the remainder of all the dirt I was eating at the 2000 "Legends Race" at Ashtabula, Ohio.

Marty Hart was / is an outstanding rider. I have no ill feelings toward him. We have always got along quite well and I respect him as a racer. HONDA bought his title in 1985, no question. In 1986, I went to Quads as did most other 3 wheeler racers that could see the writing on the wall concerning ATV racing. I had a pro-support deal through Suzuki and DG performance in 1986 and won many races on my RM powered LT250.(Outlawed at seasons end)

The 1986 3 wheel title would have been between Marty and Jimmy White. If I recall, Jimmy had many mechanical failures during the season, and Marty really had NO other competition and won the 1986 3 wheel title with little effort.

Even in 1986, all of the emphasis was on Quads. 3 wheelers were history as far as racing them competitively.

Mike

[NOS_350X]

R Nutt,
I had a pro-support deal through Suzuki and DG performance in 1986 and won many races on my RM powered LT250.(Outlawed at seasons end)



What was the reason for the outlawing of the bike?

[oldfart]

Roger Decoster rode one of the ATC250Rs as a promo, Steve Rhoades invented the "Mystery Link" suspension on the white "Ghost." and Puerto Nuevo was the lobster place in Baja (near the Cantamar dunes). Back then, for $8, you could stuff your face with more grilled lobsters, rice, beans and fresh tortillas than you could imagine. Corona beer was about $1 a bottle... great times! Now that place is a major tourist trap.

[Old 179]

Hey Mike and Dean,

Base on the March 84 issue. The answers were; "Ace" crashed into a '62 Mercury in Baja, Lobsters at Cantamar, Motocross rider Rex Statan, And the "mystery link" suspension

[CoeShow]

Old 179

I really couldn't recall who if any MX racer was riding a 3 wheeler at the 1000 that year. I "guessed" Chuck Sun only because I know he rode for Honda and Rex was with Yamaha.

Dean was right about Cantamar. You could eat your self sick on lobster back in the early eighties for very little dinero.

[CoeShow]

Nos 350X,

My brother installed an engine from a 1986 RM250 motocrosser into my 1986 LT250 quad. DG performance built a hand made "cone" expansion chamber for it and the thing was a rocket. The engine was bone stock.

I was winning a number of the Suzuki quad promotional races in 1986. Suzuki was paying quad racers more money than they were for MXers at MX races!!

At one such race, Suzuki had a number of engineers in attendance and a few of the Suzuki "team" riders had been testing for days at this track prior to the race. I showed up and won the race. All of the engineers were amazed at how much faster my quad was than the ones that they had been testing. (what about the rider!!)

I won the next race as well but was informed by letter that the "stock"LT engine had to be installed to claim any prize moneys. That was the end of that. At almost this very time I was approach by Yamaha to help unveil THEIR secret quad, the BANSHEE!! So I parked the Suzuki and inked a deal with Yamaha!

The amazing thing with the Suzuki was that the RM engine was a near "bolt in"!! The engineers asked my brother if HE was an engineer and many many questions on how and why we did what we did.

The 1987 model LT 250 sported an "ALL NEW" engine. Suzuki copied US!! They did exactly what we had done, only a bit better by incorporating a counter balancer that the RM engine lacked. I have ridden many 3 wheelers and quads with motorcycle engines installed. They all vibrated noticeably, EXCEPT this one. The RM engine only vibrated a tad, like a Kawasaki 3 wheeler, maybe even less. It was easily acceptable. I can't say why this worked and didn't vibrate, but work it did! This quad was the best handling one I EVER rode/raced.

I had never ever ridden a Honda quad until I raced at the "Legends"race in 2000. Prior to that day I had only raced my Suzuki and Yamahas.

[Howdy]

I had never ever ridden a Honda quad until I raced at the "Legends"race in 2000. Prior to that day I had only raced my Suzuki and Yamahas.

Speaking of the "Legends" race, If they have another one of these races are you going to attend? I ask because I didn't know anything about that one or my butt would have been there.
Howdy

[CoeShow]

I would go again sure. I feel it would be a better event if held at another racing facility. The Ashthabula race track is a one liner for sure!

One of the more popular off-road sites would be nicer in my opinion.

When I attended the event I wanted to bring a 3 wheeler! They said no, quads only....... Maybe next time ??

[tkm]

Not sure if this has been asked or not, but which did you enjoy racing better...ATCs or Quads?

Also, which do you think was ultimately faster on certain courses (drag racing excluded)? I haven't looked at track times for ATCs in a long time.

Thanks for posting...this thread has brought back a lot of memories from my childhood.

[Old 179]

Hey Mike,

Found info on 81 Baja 1000 in 2-82 issue. (being there was questionable answer). Your team was #83 in which your team started between the two Honda entries #82 @ #84. Team #81 was Rick Younger, Paul Williams and Suzuki MX star, Rocket Rex Staten. They lead untill Rex hurt his shoulder in a high speed get off, somewhere before Mikes Sky Ranch.
Your team had some bad luck. High speed get offs,engine seized and a flat near the end. (Was only 4 min behind with 50 miles to go). It was mention that your stage, you gain an hour on everyone after the top end was redone!
Five time world champion Roger DeCoster was scheduled as the first rider in the 1980 Baja 1000. An urgent test session in Japan forced him to be replaced. I hope I cleared this answer to that question.

[CoeShow]

tkm,
I have always liked the way 3 wheelers handle MUCH more than quads! My 1986 Suzuki LT250 with Briggs Built A-arms and works performance shocks all around was the best handling Quad......... period.

Even in drag racing a 3 wheeler will out run ANY quad with equal displacement, and even some that have larger engines!

Old 179,

It's nice that you have all of the old literature to refer to on details....... I have known Rex Staten for many years and I don't ever recall him riding for Suzuki !!

After this many years things are forgotten.

Mike

[Old 179]

Mike,

Suzuki was mention in the article. He could have rode for others and wrong info given to the writer of the article! We don't want to rewrite our history. Thanks

[ATCWRENCH]

this is my first post on this thread, have read the whole thing and loved every bit of it. apperently I may be the only one that has made the connection but we have a few of your old action pics on this web page from 1983. 3&4 wheeling magazine did an article on factory racers and the way their machines were set up back in the day.

[edog]

That if fricken awsome dude.Love the artical.:Bounce :Bounce :w00t:

[breastman569]

saw this poster over at 3wheeler.org and was wondering if you rember taking this picture?

[dovesprings250R]

Mike, nice to hear from you! I'd read dirtwheels magazine in high school and wanted to ride like you guys so bad! I was able to race my three wheeler in the desert in 1986 but after that swithched to quads. How did you like desert racing as opposed to motocross? Did you ever race with Fred Wing? He hauled ass in the desert if I remember correctly. Thanks Mike!

[CoeShow]

breastman569,

Yes, I remember the photo shoot that was used to make the poster. I/we at Honda were very fortunate to be also used as "talent" for TV commercials as well.

Dovesprings20R,

Fred Wing was a Honda employee that was very involved in the early stages of ATC racing. He was an excellent rider and seemed to really enjoy his involvement with the team. He teamed with Wes Arnold and Tom Gildea at some of the early SCORE off-road races.

I was never on the same team with him. His involvement diminished gradually as the team expanded with riders that were racing for a living. Fred still had to work his normal 9-5 job at Honda and then he could work on his racing equipment.

Much harder to do and still be competitive.

[edog]

That poster is the ****.Why would some idiot use duct tape to hold it up?:crazy:

[Yamahammer490]

Mike,

This thread has been fascinating. I was a big fan of 3 wheelers back in the 80s, though I always cheered for the 3B guys. (Loved the yellow brand...)

I posted a bunch of my drawings from my old high school sketch book in another thread but didn't realize it was a picture of you. I hope you enjoy it and that I did it justice.

Mark

[CoeShow]

Yamahammer490,

Nice drawing! I like Yamahas too. Did you know that a 490 mill will almost "bolt in" to one of your Tri Z's?
A custom pipe would need to be made, but I have seen it done and it is cool.....

They don't seem to vibrate that bad either.

Mike

[edog]

That would be one kick ass Tri Z.

[Yardbird]

Nice drawing!

[jason85atc250r]

mike welcome to the board

do you remeber a guy named Mac Mohr? he was a privateer that used to race the pro class on a 200x. he was from southeast pennsylvania. i bought some old race parts from him. he told stories about how he would give curtis sparks and them guys a run for there money. he said at one national he raced the 250 pro class and got 5th or 7th i think. he ran alot in the mid 80's

after the ban he put the 85 200x motor in a 1988 250r chassy. the motor was a TC with the dual plug head with 13 to 1 compression big time cam. the thing was so camed up it had harldly any low end grunt you had to keep it tapped flat out or nothing like the new 250 mx bikes. i bought the quad from the guy he sold it to. that thing would hang no problem hanging with mild trx's and banshees.

[willcamach]

that sounds like one bad ass 200x motor!!!! my x could use one some of that guys magic. lol

[CoeShow]

jason85atc250r,

I raced at many many different tracks and locations. I don't recall a Mac Mohr, but it sounds as though he may have been a local hot shoe there in Pennsylvania.

I am originally from Pennsylvania myself. I was born and lived there during my youth. I moved to California with my family in 1967. (Yea, I'm old!)

I lived and grew up in a Pittsburgh suburb, Allison Park.

GO STEELERS!! I have always been and will always be a Steelers fan!

Mike

[mad_max]

Mike,

When desert racing, which was worse: flat tire or running out of gas?

What did you like the most and the least about desert racing?

[jason85atc250r]

jason85atc250r,

I raced at many many different tracks and locations. I don't recall a Mac Mohr, but it sounds as though he may have been a local hot shoe there in Pennsylvania.

I am originally from Pennsylvania myself. I was born and lived there during my youth. I moved to California with my family in 1967. (Yea, I'm old!)

I lived and grew up in a Pittsburgh suburb, Allison Park.

GO STEELERS!! I have always been and will always be a Steelers fan!

Mike


he told me stories of running the nationals. i remember telling about Lorreta lynn ranch racing there and hanging with the factory 200x guys.

i just figured you mite remember him

he would run that 200x quad at the local mx races at the pennslyvania farm show biulding in the late 80's and win in the vet class agianst the 250,s

he grafted a blaster front end on a 86 200x around 1991 when i started racing and would allways give me fits it was faster them the old one and got better traction due to short frame. they have a 0 to 230 air colled class in district 6 (eastern pa) so thats why he made it.

luckly he only came out to the tracks that paid cash so i was able to win some races. in 1994 i made a 88 quadracer with a blaster engine in it. that helped some also.

[CoeShow]

mad_max,

Desert racing......... What an experience! Baja............. Majestic and scenic!

Running out of gas would most certainly be worse than a flat tire!!

I NEVER ran out of gas in any race. Flat tires were a normal occurance, but I personally had very few.

There isn't really "one" thing I liked best about desert racing. There are so many things that make this racing avenue exciting!

I can say that eating all the "DUST" from having to start behind all of the race vehicles in the earlier SCORE off-road races was a clear bummer, and the thing I disliked the most.

After we proved that we were faster than ALL of the car classes, SCORE began starting us after the bikes and AHEAD of the cars where we belonged. The
ATC250R was such a competant desert weapon that we consistantly passed and finished ahead of almost ALL of the bikes by the end of the races.

In the 1984 Baja 1000, my team finished 4th OVERALL!! The only teams that finished ahead of us were 3 "open class" (500cc+) bike teams that started at the very front of the field. We were not quite as fast as those teams, but we still caught and passed all of the 250cc and 125cc bikes, and had faster times than ALL of the truck and buggy classes!!

Quads still can't match the 3 wheelers speed and prowess even with the new
450cc versions now available.

[edog]

3 Wheelers rule still.:w00t:

[Billy Golightly]

Hey Mike, what did your team (and others too) do to prepare for the several hundred mile long desert races? I mean rider wise, did you guys make sure you ate or didn't eat certain foods before the race, got a right amount of sleep, took vitamin supplements, ect? I'm sure the machines had a long checklist on them also...could you go into detail on that a little bit also?

[CoeShow]

HondaATC,

All of the Honda Team ATC riders were involved in some form of physical training and we all ate a nutritious intake of food. Granted, the selection of good food in Mexico was slim to non-existant then, and may still be today.

Thats why we took a lot of food with us. I used to ride many hours EVERY day when I was racing. I was never bored and to this day I still love to ride!

My typical day would start off with a light breakfast and then some form of cardiovascular exercise. I used to put in many miles on my bicycles and hours on a rowing machine I used to have, and I would swim several times a week as well in a nearby Olympic size pool.

Then it was out riding, like I said EVERY day!. A lot of days after riding I would come home and unload my 3 wheeler and load up my jet-ski and go ride and goof off with it in the afternoon. Jet skiing is also a good work out! Since I rode so much, the long desert races were never a problem as far as stamina.

I tried a few different diets and such, and a few supplements as well, but I could never tell if they had any effect or benefit. I was fortunate that one of the local Pros was part owner of a healthier food chain called the Soup Plantation. Do they have those where you live? Well I would have a huge dinner most every night always with a giant mixed salad. I was always hungry in those days!

I know that everyone is different. When you are racing out there, adrenaline will also keep you going!

Our desert bikes were gone over with a fine tooth comb! Our mechanics and riders would put in many hours prepping the bikes making sure the skid plates stayed on. The skid plates and their retention areas were always extra reinforced so that they would not fail. The engines were also built for reliability, so most times stock components were used. You can't win unless you finish right?

I hope that answers some of your questions

Good luck and ride safe.

Mike

[mad_max]

Mike,

Speaking of Baja, I saw an interview with an off-road racer (Ivan Stewart as I recall) talking about instances of locals setting obstacles or along the course in an attempt to make the racers crash. Did you ever hear of this happening?

[Jeb]

Mike, do you remember the race in the pictures on the following post? Thanks goes out to 250sxwheeliepop for posting them! :beer

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=44313

[CoeShow]

mad_max,

We called these obstacles "Mexican speed bumps". Yes, I have seen many and unfortunately been caught in one during the 1986 Baja 1000. I crashed hard and received a concussion, not being able to quite finish my section.

Some of the Mexicans are quite unhappy with off-road races running through their property and I don't blame them for that. I do feel that the traps they build are very dangerous and can even be fatal!

I never go to Baja anymore. My last race there was in 1987. I have known many other racers that have had their lives threatened by Mexican locals so to me it's a "no brainer" to stay the heck away fom there.......

Jeb,

I do remember that race quite well! During the practice and qualifiers the previous day, I think I was one of, if not the fastest rider at the track. That night and into the next morning it rained, hard at times, and the track became a quagmier.

We "HAD" to run some form of Ohtsu tire on our 3 wheelers, and the japanese tire guys had nothing for the damp conditions. Hoosier was well represented and had a tire and compound specifically for the wet conditions. This Hoosier tire hooked up so well even in the mud that the guys running them could wheelie out of the corners!

We (anybody running tires other than the wet weather Hoosiers) were doomed!
I think all of the Team Honda riders were nearly lapped at that race! If Honda management would have just let us run the tires that would work, I would have most likely won that race. There were even some local expert riders that beat us that day!

I lost too many races during the 1985 season because we HAD to run the Ohtsu tires no matter what!
Very poor management decision.........

[Billy Golightly]

Sounds like you rode the wheels off of whatever you could find Mike! Thats what it takes though. Did you ever experience anything problematic on the 250R during your racing career that wasn't just normal things that wear out? Any kind of structural breakage to the frame, or other parts? Do you recall if someone ever made an aftermarket frame for the late model 250R's? I would guess not since the geometry and setup on them was so good from the factory but I figured I would ask.

Billy

[Mr. Sandman]

Granted, the selection of good food in Mexico was slim to non-existant then, and may still be today.

What??? A few fish tacos and a cold one or three is the breakfast, lunch and dinner of champions and repeated running to, sitting down, standing up and sitting down on the porcelin throne can be quite a work out in itself!:D

[ATCT]

Wow! Mike Coe! My favorite rider when I was a teen. Amazing. That's like having Hendrix show up on a guitar web site, except I doubt his memory would be nearly as good.

Thanks for all the great stories. Your enthusiasm is much appreciated and definitely infectious (I now wish I could go riding...stupid slow restoration...haha.)

Tom

[CoeShow]

I don't want to be too critical. There were a number of fine eateries in Mexico. But lets face it, when you are racing for a living, Shellfish and beer will only go so far!

I never missed an opportunity AFTER the races to eat like that, but during prerunning and during the race you had to eat more nutritious grub.

I used to eat a lot of Grape Nuts cereal down there. Not only with milk in the morning, but like trail mix during the day. Curtis Sparks and I used to call it GRAVEL. " Hey Sparks, want some GRAVEL?" "Sure, I'd love some"........

[sandpuppi101]

Hey Mike- I remember reading all about you guys back in the day,and I am glad to see you revistitng your past with all of us! I have read all the thread and have found it to be very interesting! What is your take on trikes to this day,what kind of future do you see in the world of the 3-wheeler? I have been riding trikes since the early 70's,and basically they are all i've ever known and enjoyed.Do you ever see an uprising in ATC's or a downfall? And what do you think of all these guy's restoring there trikes to there former glory? And lastly,there are alot of young fella's on here now,do you have any suggestions for them,and how about the older guy's? Thanks in advance!!

[CoeShow]

sandpuppi101,

My take on 3 wheelers has always been the same. They are still the funnest of ANY ATV ever made, no comparison.

The future may not be so grand because like anything that hasn't been in production for 20+ years, parts become harder and harder to find.

I don't forsee any real "uprising" in three wheelers simply because I'm certain that many are scrapped out and/or totaled in accidents, attrition for parts and what not every year. So, the numbers will continue to decline as time goes on.

I think that anybody restoring their trike is most likely having fun and that is important. Hopefully they are doing restorations so that they can RIDE their trike, not turning it into a garage queen!

As far as suggestions for young and old, Just please be be smart! Don't drink and ride, ride double, all of the things that most already know NOT to do, but some still do anyway.

Good luck and be safe!

[mad_max]

Mike,

I was wondering if Team Honda used any stock 3wheelers as pit bikes or race support vehicles?

Also, way back in the thread you mentioned that the 350X never was really a factor in ATC racing. I was wondering if you knew why Honda came out with a 350X?

Thanks
Max

[CoeShow]

mad_max,

We used anything available for pit support, we even modified a Civic station wagon for pits. The wagon never worked out too well because after it was loaded up it was really light in the front............. not good for front wheel drive!! It got stuck easy!!

As far as stock 3 wheelers, our pre-runners were mostly all stock, and we would sometimes canibalize them if needed during a race.

As far as the 350X, while it was never raced to any success, the 3 wheel racing was over before the 350 was on the market for any length of time.

I believe I mentioned this before, but all of the 4 strokes had to run with equal displacement 2 strokes. I don't recall if the AMA's "double displacement" rule for 4 strokes was implemented at this time, but I believe it was.

Anyone racing a 4 stroke was at an immediate disadvantage back then. Thats why I never felt that Honda or any one else was doing the 200X (or 350X) any justice when having to compete against equal displacement 2 strokes.

The reality is that Curtis Sparks and all others racing 200X's should have been racing aginst 100's!! Even the 125 class would have been DOMINATED by the
200X!!

The problem for the 350X would have been no class to race in.

The reason Honda made the 350X was simple. Honda has a large market research department. The buying public made it clear even back then that they wanted a PERFORMANCE SPORT ORIENTED 4 STROKE 3 WHEELER!! Just like the popular 200X, only bigger and better. Honda listened and the 350X was born.

The Honda 3 wheel race team was under the watch of marketing as well. The marketing department had already shown that people were going to purchase 3 wheelers REGARDLESS of how the race team was doing!!

Unlike auto's and motorcycles where there is a distinct link (What wins on Sunday sells on Monday) The ATV racing effort was doomed from a sales perspective. The Honda ATC Race Teams budget came directly from the sales department. ALL of the motorcycle race teams had a seperate budget for their efforts. Since ATV sales were not influenced by racing them, the writing was already on the wall.

I feel that is the reason ATV manufacturers will never back an ATV racing program in any fashion near how they support motorcycle racing. Dirt bikes or crotch rockets! There is also little interest in ATV racing as a spectator sport.

While there is some interest, I don't feel it will ever come near the level of interest currently enjoyed by SuperCross and /or Roadracing bikes.

Lets face it, ATV's ARE supposed to be for recreation right?? That is their intended purpose. Hell, I think lawnmower racing gets more airtime than ATV racing!

Happy Holidays!

Mike

[Howdy]

Mike,
Did you see the thread: http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=44930

I bet that will bring back some memories. lol
Howdy

[edog]

CoeShow can you try to get Curtis Sparks to join this website?I was just wondering because you know him.

[CoeShow]

Howdy,

I had not seen that thread or the pictures here on this site. Thanks for posting them here for me to see..........


E-Dog,

I have not talked with Curtis for some time. I actually tried today, but he was not available. I know that he most likely won't have time for much of any stuff like this for some time. I know the reasons, but don't feel it is my place to discuss them here first, sorry. His presence on this site would be very cool.

I did speak with Tommy Gaian today! I will try and get him to reply. He was/is an awesome rider, and he is very knowledgeable on 3 wheelers and ATV's, especially the 200X. He told me that he has been on the site and has read some of the stuff so, it's time for him to chime in, wouldn't you agree??

[Howdy]

Howdy,

I had not seen that thread or the pictures here on this site. Thanks for posting them here for me to see..........


I did speak with Tommy Gaian today! I will try and get him to reply. He was/is an awesome rider, and he is very knowledgeable on 3 wheelers and ATV's, especially the 200X. He told me that he has been on the site and has read some of the stuff so, it's time for him to chime in, wouldn't you agree??

Mike, I have more pictures / info and will Gladly add them soon. I am sure I have a bunch of Tommy Gaian also. Maybe if I make a thread or a Web page for just his pics and info, then he might be inclined to chime in. Getting all the Ols School riders on this site is VERY cool!!
;)
Howdy

[Billy Golightly]

Mike that would be very very cool if you could get Tommy recruited to come onto the site. I know one member, mymint87, has talked to him about it before and shared some of his pictures (More then likely how Tommy had seen the site). I'm just really glad that guys like you and Dean Kirsten have found the site, and enjoy it as much as the other members. Merry Christmas.

[mad_max]

Mike,

You rock!

Thanks for all the great information. Merry Christmas & Happy New Year! :beer

[edog]

I called Curtis Sparks Racing yesterday.I tryed to get ahold of him.He wasn't there,he was off for the day.I talked to this other guy that works there.He said he doesn't work with that stuff anymore.I will try getting ahold of him some other time.

[HaggLE]

Mike, did you ever have anything to do with aussie trike racers? I vaguely remember my father talking about aussies going over to the US to race against you guys, my father was a trike racer back in the day.

[Billy Golightly]

Hey Mike, near the beginning of this thread you mentioned your brother made a twin cylinder CR500 engine. Could you tell us some more about that?

[Merriman]

Hello,

I have yet to speak here, but I was wondering if you (Mike) ever remember a Baja racer named Keith Callen, or his brother Jimmy Callen? They are both my uncles, and raced in the Bajas and even some local MX events. Infact The desert racer 250R that "Mad Max" posted earlier is my uncle's old race bike from 1986. He also raced a YZ490 trike in an earlier Baja, but after passing Dean Sundahl on the asphault, he was pushed off the road by Mickey Thompson and into a canyon totalling his trike.

I'll have to dig out some of those pictures.

[CoeShow]

HaggLE,

I don't recall ever racing anyone that came from Australia specifically to race 3wheelers. Not that they didn't come over, I just don't remember any talk of such a crew or anything.
I know that Dean Sundahl WENT to Australia and raced over there for awhile.


HondaATC,
It wasn't a twin cylinder, but actually 2 CR500's joined at the crankshaft with the cranks phased 180 degrees apart. The right side engine was basically hollow other than the kick start mechanism, while the left side engine was complete.

He installed it into an almost stock Banshee frame and had some hand built pipes made for it. I never rode it, but was there when it first ran! I was later informed it ROCKED in the sand dunes and at competition hill!!!

It was amazingly not hard to start, and was quite a sleeper! The only real giveaway was the 10"+ over swingarm.


Merriman,

Yes, I know both of your Uncles! They were/are excellent ATC riders/racers! Is Callen Campers still in business?? I moved away from El Cajon a dozen years ago.
When you see them next, tell them I said "HI".

[BigGreenMachine]

Coe, how fair of a comparsion were the 85 Tecate and the 85 250R race trikes on the track? Did the R just flatout rule or was the Tecate always on your heals. I ask because the Tecate was undersuspened compared to the R and stock for stock just couldn't compare on a rough track.

James

[Billy Golightly]

Man thats an insane sounding engine. I've seen pictures before on the internet of something similiar to that done up by a company called "Trick Racing". The only thing is it was just modded cases with cylinders on them. It wasn't an assembled motor or anything. Heres a link to it: http://www.trickracing1.com/The%20First%20CR500%20Made%20into%201000cc.html

[CoeShow]

BigGreenMachine,

In most instances the Kawasaki's were a bit faster. Honda's had a better overall powerband IMHO. The Kawi's seemed to be "peaky" like a 125 when built to make top power.

Another problem as you alluded to was that the geometry and suspension was not on par with the Honda's. On flat tracks and off-road tracks that were tight, the Kawi's could hold their own. But on tracks that were rough, had many big jumps and had higher speeds the Honda's were superior. And because the Honda's had a wider powerband and didn't vibrate at all, they didn't wear you out during the race.

Plus it seemed that the Kawi's had reliability issues too. I know Jimmy White and others dropped out of races with engine/ignition troubles. I heard that the cases were prone to "leak" causing seizures, and that the ignitions were problematic.

The faster and rougher the track, the more I liked it. (like Loretta Lynns and Colorado Springs) It was killing me that every year the trikes had longer suspension, but the tracks kept getting flatter and flatter..........

There must have been many racers that smoked cigarettes and complained that the tracks were too rough and the motos were too long !!

I've always felt that flat track racing takes much less skill AND physical conditioning to be competitive, and that a faster machine is of more importance for flat track racing.

The Micky Thompson races unfortunately ended up like that as well. In the end the races were like 5 or 6 laps. When your running sub 30 second lap times, thats not much of a race in my opinion.

[Old 179]

Oh-yes!!! Loretta Lynns, Great long starts, the table top, the whoops, oh- yes!!!

[HaggLE]

I've always felt that flat track racing takes much less skill AND physical conditioning to be competitive, and that a faster machine is of more importance for flat track racing.


My father had a 200x with a CR125 engine in it for racing flat track (in Australia back about 83 or 84), there were two classes 0-200cc and over 200cc. He use to enter both classes and blitz the unter 200 class and get 2nd or 3rd in the over 200's which were mostly air cooled 250r's (pre dated watercooled ones) but the one that he couldnt beat was a 250r with a cr450 engine which im sure you could understand why (ill let greenhuman explain that trike, he rode it).

My point is that flat track isnt all about horsepower when a 125 is beating worked 250r's. The key here was excellent starts and superior braking and handleing and definately some years of riding skill.

[~coeshowgirl~]

Hey dad!!!!!!! Well i was just cheken up on your site and it looks like you got a big following!!!!! You definitly earned it!!! i love you and miss ya!!!!:TrikesOwn hahaha anyways...... i hope i inherited those great riding genes like you have! lol talk to you later :w00t:

[CoeShow]

CoeShowGirl,

Oh you got the genes alright!! I put you on your first quad when you were only 4. Do you remember that little Suzuki 50? I can still recall your first "get-off".

You were trying to ride across some bumpy terrain that was too rough for your non-suspended little quad and it bounced you off like a bucking bronco even though you really didn't crash!!

You were a trooper even then. You dusted yourself off, jumped right back on. Only better AND faster!

Like the Gatorade commercial, "It's in you!"

I love you.

Dad

[edog]

Did you find any 200X pics Coeshow?

[CoeShow]

HaggLE,

I don't question that at the local level and/or at smaller racing venues years ago, a better rider on a less powerful machine could beat others on larger and more powerful machines! I used to do the same exact thing at my "local" track. I used to enter my 132cc machine into the "OPEN" class and run right at the front like your dad did.

But at an AMA pro event, that would never happen. I doubt that you would be able to "sneak" the 125 into any other race besides the one designated for the displacement.

E-dog,

I don't have any ATC200 pictures, sorry. I also have no way to scan them and download to this site if I did have some.

[firefirefire90]

mike...dude were like neighbors...just post(mail) them to me. I can post em for ya. Or work something out if you need stuff scanned. I kknow you must have gooood pictures from the 80s...heh

Mike, how was your 132? I have a chance at buying one on a bandito frame. How fast were they? Could they keep up with the 200x?

[Billy Golightly]

Mike let me talk with Howdy and see if we might be able to buy a late Christmas present for you. Would you be interested in that? :)

[CoeShow]

firefirefire90 and HondaATC,

I appreciate both of your offers, thank you. My wife is actually "Queen" of this computer. She is planning on purchasing one here in the near future(scanner/printer) so I should have the capability soon.

My last 132 was real good. My brother Sam actually helped design the "Bandito" frame back in the day, and that was the frame I used throughout my modified 90-110 days. I feel a good 132 can stay with a "stock" ATC200X in the sand.

Without suspension though the 200X will start to look real good if the terrain starts to get rough.

Mike

[mad_max]

Mike,

Just wanted to mention a nice ride area that your daughter may want to check out in the Tulsa area, its called Appalachia Bay ORV area, its at Lake Keystone just about 10 miles west Sand Springs (which is just west of Tulsa). Take I-244 to US Hwy 412. The highway goes across part of the lake then there is a sign for the Appalachia Bay ORV area turn-off. Its open every day and doesnt cost anything to ride there. Its approximately 600 acres. Has some sand but mostly dirt trails.

[~coeshowgirl~]

Hey thanx for mentioning that, my friend actualy just came back from riding there. he said it was totaly awesome hahaha....

-dad

Moms looking for pics of me and abbi riding.... well post some as soon as we find them!!!! love you lots :TrikesOwn

Coe girlie

[SpeedBump]

Any Updates? We Want :pics:

[~coeshowgirl~]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/Mandi_faye/100_0921.jpgDAD!!! WHATS HAPPENEN????? SEEMS AS THOUGH YOU HAVENT BEEN ON RECENTLY..... WHA THAVE YOU BEEN UP TO? ANY RECENT RIDING ADVENTURES???

ANYWAYS - WRTE ME SOON

-LOVE THE GIRLY COE SHOW HAHAHA

PS:TrikesOwn

[EricWL]

This site rocks. I love reading these posts. It's good to see the great heros from back in the day who were in the world of 3 wheeling post on this site. Way to go Mike. Thank you guys.

[leprogle]

what's coeshowgirl doing on a 4 wheeler???? didn't your Dad teach you anything! lol just kidding, at least it's a honda

[Yardbird]

GO STEELERS!! I have always been and will always be a Steelers fan!

Mike

Somebody must be very happy after this Sunday. :TrikesOwn

[CoeShow]

Yardbird,

You're right! While the Super Bowl was'nt the best overall, The Steelers did have the only plays worth mentioning.

1 3rd and 28 and Roethlisberger finding Hines Ward for a 1st down near the goal line!

2 Willie Parkers record breaking 75 yard TD run!

3 The "gadget" play that also scored a TD.

The Seahawks never really did much offensively.

Anyway, the Steelers won and thats all that matters! One for the thumb, and Bettis gets to go out in style.

Mike

[Old 179]

Hey Mike,
Nice to see your still around!

[mymint87]

Mike,

props to you and all the info you have freely given to this forum. to hear all the stories that you tell and the ones that Tommy tells of you and Sam only makes me wish I was "Hanging" with you guys during those Trike racing years

I hope that you benefit in all ways with the resergence of trikes. as one of the pioneers you (and your family) deserve every cent and every prop that is, or with time, that will be given to you....

[CoeShow]

Mint87,

I have asked Tommy to get involved and write something here on the site. He is busy with life, and supporting his sons bicycle racing and who knows what else that occupies his time.

He has a wealth of knowledge on three wheelers as you know. Hopefully he will find the time to offer some things in the future.

Mike

[mymint87]

Mike

Yes, I've spoken to him about your conversation;) ...hehe

It brought a tear to my eye to see a proud dad boosting that his son was, "A chip off the old block!" Congrats go out to little Gaian for winning "ALL" (7 total) #1 plates :w00t:

Mike, I can't say it enough.....

I feel that you and the other Trike Racers were the biggest victims of the cessation in production of ATC's

Thanks for giving us all the information we seek, and telling us of your racing career. You've moved this forum forward tremendously,

by helping the ATC to gain respect in the modern ATV world, you too will benefit......it's a win-win situation.

and thats my montra as I scream in Tommy's ear, and with you being not only a friend, but a childhood friend of his, I hope that you keep a bug in his ear too....

Maybe you should go over there, hold him down and sign his ARSE up.......LOL:lol:

Anyway,

Thanks for answering questions from the next generation of "ATC fans":TrikesOwn

[bondoboy]

Thanks for all of the stories Mr. Coe. I just have a few questions. Do you still own any 3 wheelers? Are you coming to Trikefest? Thanks a lot.

[bondoboy]

Mr. Coe, you've got a PM.

[slothminx]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v720/Mandi_faye/100_0921.jpgDAD!!! WHATS HAPPENEN????? SEEMS AS THOUGH YOU HAVENT BEEN ON RECENTLY..... WHA THAVE YOU BEEN UP TO? ANY RECENT RIDING ADVENTURES???

ANYWAYS - WRTE ME SOON

-LOVE THE GIRLY COE SHOW HAHAHA

PS:TrikesOwn


Woah!! Coe genes and yet a quad!!!! whats going on there! :lol:

At least you chose the right colour there Coeshowgirl!! hehe thats a YAMAHA yellow:w00t: .

You almost lost it by riding a quad but with the trikes own smiley made everything good!!!!! Now all we gotta do is see how you can handle a 250R :TrikesOwn

[Billy Golightly]

Mike, as a long time rider at what point in time would you say that you personally realised that land use and closures were a big problem that was going to effect anyone involved with off-road riding? And are you active in Land Use issues today?

[CoeShow]

Bondoboy,

I currently own 0 3 wheelers.

Honda ATC,

Back when I was still racing, land closures were not yet an issue. Most land closures here in San Diego county have been due to Urban development. Many of the places we used to ride are now full of homes!

Even the old race facilities now have strip malls and housing developments built on the sites where I used to race. I am not direcrly involved with land closure issues personally, but I am interested in what the Blue Ribbon Coalition is doing here in Caliornia. I feel the biggest current threat is sound control.

Mike

[mad_max]

Mike,

Do you have any plans to get a 3wheeler again and if so which one would you like to have? My apologies if you answered this previously.

Thanks

[firefirefire90]

Mike, I remember you once telling me that you're brother still had a 250R professionaly built by him or something like that. If i remember rightly, it was a 1981 250R? I was just wondering, if your brother would be willing to ever do work on trikes again? To get them to race spec? I am not meaning free or anything, because I want my 81' R to be very much like an old racer(yeah i know) and i need work done. It would be cool if he would do it for pay or as like a side job. Cheers mate.

Nick

[CoeShow]

firefirefire90,
It might be easier than you think to get him to do it! He is currently the R&D genius at Alba Action Sports in Poway. Give him a call or swing by the shop and meet him. He is currently developing many systems and engines for current quads and Yamaha's Rhino.

Good luck and ride safe.

[firefirefire90]

Woah i was just there!!! What is his name? Should i tell him you sent me LOL maybe get a discount..lol..Man you got me exicted!

[CoeShow]

His name is Sam Coe. Feel free to inform him that I steered you his way! He does get very busy at times so I don't advise just "dropping in". Call ahead and ask for him on the phone. You may have to leave a call back number.

Good luck!

[SWIGIN]

so you raced for suzuki....i have a video of the suzuki race circit from 86 or 87 ill have to dig that up and see whos on it.....i do know that gary denton is on it

[CoeShow]

Mad Max,

I would only want a 85-86 ATC250R. While I enjoyed all of my 3 wheelers immensely, those were my favorite.

SWIGIN,

As with all of the other Suzuki "racers", I had a Factory support deal from Suzuki in 1986. Suzuki formed an official team for one year only in 1987. I was not part of that team. I had been previously hired by Yamaha to campaign the soon to be released "BANSHEE" !!

Yamaha suppported my racing fully through the 1988 season. I may have been the very last fully sponsored ATV racer until recently. I can't say for certain if any of the manufacturers have full factory rides comparable to what I had 20 years ago! Still its better than nothing I suppose.

Its just that now the cost of living and expenses are significantly more. So even if the current salaries were similar to what I was earning way back when, it wouldn't go very far in todays economy.....

[crackshot]

Yo Mike!
I grew up in Orange County and was a teen during the ATC era.
We used to ride Glamis, Azusa canyon, Deanza, Hemet (before populated) Diamond Bar (again before populated) and Prado Dam.
I cried when they closed Riverside!

[chris200x]

Mike, someone recently discovered a nice 200r flat track racer on the boards. Did you have any experiences with these trikes. Any info you can give would be appreciated. Can you guestimate how many of there things were made? Also were they made by honda or just privatly,,, stuff like that.

I'd also like to hear any more stories from back in the day... I'm sure you got some good ones! :beer

EDIT: I just seen you responded to the post about the 200R... So what in the world is a 200r? a myth? Mike in ftlaud also says he has one. I posted a link in the new 200r thread. Can you confirm this as a 200r? Anyone know where to find some pics of a real one?

I would also like to know what taking weight off the flyweheel does. Does it shorted engine life?

[CoeShow]

chrisr200x,

The ATC200R was a factory only non-production race trike built by Honda to dominate the 200 class. The machine had many foreseeable advancements that may have made it to production if 3 wheelers hadn't suffered their untimely execution. There are some pictures here on the site, look for them from the home page............

Lightening the flywheel will allow your engine to accelerate AND decelerate faster.

I never liked the effect, and actually ran a HEAVIER flywheel in some instances.

Personally, I don't recommend it, but to each his own......

[chris200x]

:beer yea I've seen the pics on the mainpage. There just doesn't seem to be too many good pics or info anywere. Thanks for your time.

[firefirefire90]

Mike, I talked to Sam last week and although I am not impressed on how Alba got him to me...i called about 8 times and all the time got put on hold..but I was impressed on how much he still knew about the trikes. Particularly the 1981 R. He started tellin me on bore the carb, port it, 200x front end and everything. Sure opened my eyes. If he has talked to you lately, apologize on my behalf...I have not been able to go down to alba because of school... Cheers

Nick

[vintagemotorsports]

Hi mike,
I am a big fan of yours from back in the day, I own Vintage motorsports we are a restoration company for off road bikes and ATVs , checkout the site www.vintagemotorsports.net you will like what you see as far as the vintage 3 wheelers. I am currentley working for the honda collection hall in japan and have restored 13 bikes and ATCs for them so far, I know they dont have any race ATCs at the museam do you know of where any of the original race bikes may have ended up They would love to have some restored for there collection for sure. My buddy Andrew from Md who works with me knows some people you know , his best friend mark hough drives the 2cnd semi for the honda motocross team so thats how we got our in with honda he knows the other driver Tom G very well , and knows your buddy chuck miller , and cliff white , and eric Keho. I have not dealt with too many people from american honda but have become very good friends with many people from japan in R&D and especially Mr IKEDA the GM for the collection hall . they would love to get at least one of their race ATCs on display in japan , you wont beleive all the cool bikes they have there . Its great to talk to you feel free to email me and we can go into more detail on a build for Honda take care
Mike palmgren

[CoeShow]

Mike,

As I recall, ALL of the race trikes were sold to Honda employees and their friends at amazing prices. It would be very difficult and/or impossible to say where any of them are now.

ALL of our trikes started as production ATC250R's. We did modify them, but again, most people would never be able to tell. Only the trained eye could see what we did!

There really weren't many physical differences that were readily noticable. If you can find an original HRC short course tank and shrouds for the 1985 and 86 models, your 99% home for a restored moto / short track racer.

Our Desert race trikes had larger than stock tanks that held in the neighborhood of 5 gals. I believe IMS made our large capacity tanks back then. You will also need a much thicker/taller seat. A number of aftermarket suppliers made these taller seats back in the day. E-bay might be your best hope. Maybe some of the current seat makers? Other than those items, we used mostly stock components.

I wish I could say there was more, but there really isn't!

Good luck with your resto projects.

Mike

[vintagemotorsports]

Thanks mike,
I just finished an 86 250r for Honda they will have it on display soon at the collection hall , see attached pic, so like you said the actual race bikes looked pretty much stock , so really the only real trick or works bike would be the 200R correct? I would have to ask some of the guys in japan if they know of where they all ended up , i would imaging most of them got crushed etc but you never know they may have stashed some of these bikes somewhere , you would not beleive the warehouse of bikes they have that are not displayed on the main floors , now on the 81 250Rs did the actual race bikes resemble an ( out of the box) bikes also. I love the 86 250r though by far the best bike i ever owned all i did to mine was put a pipe on it and jet it stock tires and all and it never let me down , thanks for all your help
Mike

[200xcellent]

That is the most beautiful R I have ever seen! Great work vintage!

[CoeShow]

Vintage,

That is a new looking 86! Nice job. You are correct again concernng the ATC200R. They may have all been crushed, I don't know. They were VERY trick, so someone may have some of them stashed somewhere. Tom Gildea might have some info on what happened to them. Ask him next time you see or hear from him.

The 81's were very close to stock as well, but by 1982 there were longer swingarms, fork kits, frames, and lowered fiberglass rear fenders. Our 82 trikes were better than the 83's for a while. The 3 wheelers were evolving at such a rapid pace they had to re-engineer them almost every year!

Good luck.

P.S. Was that 3 wheeler in your pic a very nice example to start with or did you have to score a lot of parts to make it that nice? Since you are into this kind of work, how much stuff is still available that is NOS or good used?

Thanks.

Mike

[vintagemotorsports]

Hi mike,
thanks for the compliments , lots of time and money goes in to all my restorations. the 86 250r I started with was a real nice original but I spent the better part of 5 years searching the country for as many NOS parts as i could witch was quite a bit and managed to build what i would say is as close to new as i think you could get . I built it for my personal collection but honda saw it in the background of one of the pics i sent them on another bike and wanted it , lets just say I didnt give it away . plus Its good to know that that bike will be alive forever in japan long after I am gone so thats cool, speaking of Tom Gildea I just talked to my buddy Andrew today he wanted me to tell you Tom is working hard today out deep sea fishing in florida before the next supercross race must be nice Huh, what a job. I attached some pics of an 82 250r i restored also i think this will spark a few memeories for you also . i will try to get a hold of tom regarding the 200R . thanks again
Mike

[chris200x]

lol.. Mike (coeshow) if those pics don't get the old pumper thumpin again I don't think nothing will. I'm sure if you hang around this site much longer you'll be back on three wheels in no time. :D

I know there's some info on the mainpage about tricky dick and his tricked out trikes (the caviga 200) Can you add anything to these super rare machines? Sorry but I still haven't got these old 200 cc race trikes out of my mind.

Mike from vintage.. that wouldn't happen to be OC's elusive 81 R by any chance.. :naughty: That freakin thing is just sick. Nice work! :beer

[vintagemotorsports]

No this is not OCs 81 250r , I am working on getting that one all finished up soon, that one will be nicer than the 82 i posted beleive it or not, I have done almost every parts for the bike OC has the fun part of bolting it together , wait till you see that 81 , Mike (coeshow) you will really like this one when its done He will post some pics for sure
take care
Mike

[CoeShow]

My brother still has his '81 that I used to race. It has seen many iterations over the years. It currently wears an '85 200X front end, +3 inch chromoly swingarm, 82 rear disc brake, lowered fiberglass rear fender and one of the air to water cooled topend conversions sent over from Japan.

He will have the trike forever........

Mike

[250r'en +TCB]

Hey mike, you mentioned earlier (way earlier!) in this thread that you wanted to get an 85/6 250R and restore it to be a short track racer. So I'm just curious as to what exactly you would do. I am assuming an HRC short track kit (kinda a given) but as far as pipe, silencers, suspension, and any engine modifications what would you do? I am looking to turn my R into an ice racer by winter and short tracker by summer and I would definantly like to know what you would do for mofifications!
Thanks, Devin

[Mike_Ham_250R]

Whatever feels good for you. A decent pipe, a lowering kit, and the S T kit should work. If you want one like the old pros, theres more work.

[CoeShow]

250r'en +TCB,

Once I get to that point I will have Curtis Sparks send me his latest 250R top end parts and pipe that I will modify to fit a 3 wheeler!

I feel he has the fastest 250R stuff hands down.

Mike

[Dammit!]

I didn't even know Sparks did 2-stroke stuff.

[CoeShow]

Dammit,

The 4stroke rage has settled into the ATV world as well as with dirt bikes. Up until a couple of years ago (before the 450's) Sparks built some of the fastest 250R's!



I'm certain he still has plenty of stuff for the quads, but probably nothing for the 3 wheelers other than top end stuff that might or might not directly swap.

[250r'en +TCB]

Hey mike, have you ever riden or seen a missile engineering flat tracker???

[350xman]

Hi Vintagemotorsports

Great job on the 86 atc250r!!!! I think that 86 atc250r looks the best left completely stock. I have a few questions for you about the restore. Did you have to find all of the replacement OEM parts or did honda"from japan" supply you with parts for the restore? What shape was the bike in before the restore? Also, could give me a ball park $$$ figure for what a restore like that would cost? I understand that it depends alot on what shape you bike is in but what did this restore cost out at? You guys do excellent work.
Take it easy!
350xman

[Chevy200s]

Hey Mike, great stories Ive been reading this thread from day 1. Sounds like you had a lot of fun. I was wondering if you had anymore stories from when you were riding/racing the air cooled 250R's. Thanks!
-pete

[vintagemotorsports]

Hi 350x man,
thanks on the 250r , that bike was originally mine I had it for years and was actuallt 75% through the restoiration for my private collection when I was talking to my contacts at Honda and they expressed strong desires to buy it from me and have me finish it for the museam , I never wanted to sell the bike i had countless hours searching for NOS parts and intense detail getting every part just right , but I thought to myself If i want the bike to end up anywhere in my life it would be at Honda japan , so there it went. lets just say i did not give it away I dont want to give out any figures etc its not really good busness . i would be happy to talk to you in detail by email on restoring one for yourself , I can build one as nice as the last one but you have to be prepared for the long term commitment like all my work it does not leave here till its spot on , email me and we can talk more
mike@vintagemotorsports.net


thanks Mike

[Bryan Raffa]

did you ever race the blackwater and if you did what did you ride for that race? what are the possibilitys you comeing to trike fest for a day??
my boss raced the blackwater in 86,87,88 he rode a Lt 250 and was a TT racer who has raced many of the tracks that you have his name is aaron reisig thought you guys might have bumped shoulders? he races astabula every year and saw you guys in 2000 he said he'll never forget it! I told him what you said about paul turner putting out junk in the early years and he just laughed and said that there was a lot of people who learnd a lesson buying cylinders from him!:lol:

[CoeShow]

250r'en + TCB,

I have never seen a Missile engineering 3 wheeler, so obviously I never had a chance to ride one either. They looked pretty cool though....... Should have done well on the circle tracks being offset like they were in the pictures.

Chevy 200s,

I have many fond memories of riding and racing the air-cooled trikes! I don't really have the time to write that much currently, sorry.

bryan raffa,

I never raced the Black Water. Turners Suzuki stuff was probably as slow as his Honda stuff!

[Trike Dude]

Hi Mr Coe,

I noticed you mentioned the Husky trikes you ran. Would you please tell us more about them and anythig you know about the Cagiva's as well?

Thanks for the great stories. Please keep em coming.

I used to stare at that '83 R ad all the time. I would go down to the Honda shop in Cordova, AK and set on the machine and recreate that pose. I still love doing it for real on my '83 R now-a-days along w/ the '86 R and the '85 350X

Thanks again.

[ausatc70]

gday mike, being from australia ive never heard of you or most of the places you raced at. but reading this thread has given me a great sense of nostalga. thanks. you seem like a top bloke!

[firefirefire90]

Hey mate, its Nick again..sorry If i have had your brother waiting this entire time, i thought it woul dhave just broke off...things come and go and people move on..well I finally might have something that is of interest of you and your honda days...might have been very close to you..give me a call...245-3010...619 that is...if you have a chance. You may want to ride this baby...she's wearin the number 1..

[CoeShow]

Trike dude,

I rode the Husky 3 wheeler in one race only, the 1981 Baja 500. This particular Trike was advanced in many ways, but did have a few flaws as well. One of the shortcomings on the trike we entered in this race was the chain adjustment mechanism.

Dickson dsigned and installed a simpler and stronger unit after the 500 on subsequent chassis's. The chain adjustment mechanism failed and we DNF'ed. If I remember correctly, we repaired the trike and did actually finish, but not in the required time limit for an official result.

I remember that the trike handled very well, was fast, was built extremely well and would have sold well too (IMHO). I don't recall exactly why Husqvarna didn't go through with marketing them. At this very time their off-road motorcycle teams were dominating the Baja races by a huge margin. It would not have taken a lot more to support the 3 wheel race entrants.

I can give you no reply or info on any Cagiva 3 wheelers.

[250r'en +TCB]

So Mike did you ever end up getting a new ATC??? Well I guess it would be 20 years old so not really new.....

Anyway I'm looking to get a big bore kit for my 85 R, either a 295cc, 300cc or 310cc I think. Any particular brands you recomend or dislike??? Anything else you think I should do to the engine with this upgrade? I already have a 38mm carb by the way.....

Thanks!

[CoeShow]

Devin,

I never did much with big-bore water cooled stuff. I know its out there, but will have to ask my brother his opinion. He has done MANY!

Mike

[Billy Golightly]

Hey Mike...do you recall when you first seen a dirtbike to three-wheeler conversion out in the wild? What was it and was it done well?

[Dammit!]

Hey CoeShow,

Seems you haven't been on in a while but I have a request.

Could you describe (in as much detail as humanly possible) how your 85-86 250R's were setup for Baja style racing?

Gearing?
Suspension?
Motor work?
Pipe?
Type of air filter?
Seat?
Electronics/ignition?
Tires?
Twist throttle I assume?

How was the powerband in those trikes? Were they setup for an emphasis on bottom end power or were the top end screamers or what? Any idea what their top speed was in full race trim?

Anything at all you can think of. The next 250R I get my hands on is getting the desert racing treatment. ;)

Recognize these machines by any chance? (http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2404&d=1094955468) These are the only two images of Baja trikes I've been able to find on the net.