Well.... The SX is starting to upset me

[Tri-ZNate]

Everything was going awesome. I dropped the SX front end this weekend, bolted the 200X front on without a single problem and did it roughly 30 min so I didnt think that was too bad for a first timer, Then today I threw the 350x carb on (didnt even have to modify. Set right in and slid into the 2 intakes like a champ.) Then I hooked the electrical back up and I wasnt getting any spark. So I pulled the other SX over which runs and made sure everything was as it should be. Well it was. So here is what I know.


I'm not running a battery and have everything in the back electrical taped that goes to the battery. It ran just before I dropped the front end and wont run now. When I kick it over the neutral light comes on. I cant figure it out. The only possibility is I hooked it up wrong but the wiring is now Identical to my other SX (and everything is connected together). The kill switch is NOT in the off position and I'm also getting fuel to the cyclinder. Also just for shits and giggles I tried putting the kill switch in all 3 positions (off, on, and off) and it still didnt get spark.


Any ideas? Also I wouldnt think the cdi would go bad in the short amount of time it took to switch front ends.

[TeamGeek6]

Right, the CDi did not go bad in a few hours. Look for a bad ground, either on the harness, or engine - to - frame. This is a common complaint on chassis work. Neutral light coming on when you kick it might mean a loose wire connection somewhere thats "making" when its kicked over from vibration.

[thefox]

The sparkplug is the weak link in the electrical system. Have you tried a new plug?

[Tri-ZNate]

The sparkplug is the weak link in the electrical system. Have you tried a new plug?

Yep tried a different plug and still wouldnt spark.



When I kick it by the way the light works and plug dont spark. We also took 2 screw drivers and tried to get a arc by putting the screw driver into the piece that goes over the plug and had another screw driver that was grounded, and it didnt arc. I talked to brapp and he asked if I spray painted the handlebars and I actually did that weekend before I put the front end on. So I'm going to start swapping out electrical parts till I find the weak link.

[chris200x]

When you painted the bars I think that's where your bad ground is. that's one of the first things me and huffa tried when I had no spark on my 200x. There is someting inside the kill switch that grounds it to the bars. Like a little flange or nipple type thing. Sand down the area of the bars where the kill switch goes and that might do the trick. Not might be a bad idea to clean up the rest of the grounds too!.

[mad_max]

When you painted the bars I think that's where your bad ground is. that's one of the first things me and huffa tried when I had no spark on my 200x. There is someting inside the kill switch that grounds it to the bars. Like a little flange or nipple type thing. Sand down the area of the bars where the kill switch goes and that might do the trick. Not might be a bad idea to clean up the rest of the grounds too!.


I dunno guys, I painted the handle bar on my SX and did the same conversion. I didnt have this problem. I dont believe there is a ground thru the bars. I'd look at the body harness where it connects to the ign switch and the electrical connections near the steering head. Also, remove and reinstall the harness connectors that connect on the lower RH side of the crankcase (neutral switch location)

[chris200x]

Don't the kill switch have to be grounded somewhere. Maybe I'm thinkin of something else then. I dunno? But I think I remember doing that mentioned above. There was a tab inside that makes contact with the bars. Where's Huffa? He might remember?

[Tri-ZNate]

the SX kill switch has it's own ground plug. It doesnt ground to the bars but instead connects to the harness.

[phreakboy]

Well I would assume that if the neutral light is coming on when you kick it that it means your electrical is all doing ok, up to that point because when you are kicking it over your creating enough juice for it to light the lights. So I would be more prone to think that it would be somewhere on your way to the coil, just for shits and giggles you should just try hooking up a battery and see what works, are you sure when you are testing for a spark you are making a really good ground,(painted motor?) try hooking a wire from the threads on the spark plug to a really good ground point and see if it sparks then.

[Howdy]

Try unplugging the kill and ignition switch and see if you get spark. I would also double and triple check every wire connection to be sure they are connected properly. It's probably a simple problem.
Howdy

[conig]

I vote coil, but please let me know what you think of the 350x carb.

And definatly post pics when your done.

[straight pipe]

just a question... what does the 350x carb do except give tuning nightmares? why would a dude do that ? it can't get any more top end than what it has already got.in my experience with my race motors is that if the engine hasn't been modified with a bigger cam oversize pistons ect..ect.. a bigger carb will kill power. reminder this is only a question ..not critisizm

[atctim]

just a question... what does the 350x carb do except give tuning nightmares? why would a dude do that ? it can't get any more top end than what it has already got.in my experience with my race motors is that if the engine hasn't been modified with a bigger cam oversize pistons ect..ect.. a bigger carb will kill power. reminder this is only a question ..not critisizm

I second this comment. If you are putting a bigger carb on the machine (intake) - you'll need to modify the exhaust (outlet) to see any difference. It's all about breathing. If it's getting more air/gas it needs to exhaust more. If not it is a mute point!

[Tri-ZNate]

I'll be going up friday to check on it so while I'm up there I'll swap kill switches and if it still doesnt get spark I'll do the coil. As for the carb you right you need inprovements to see any difference. I have a high flow pipe and the ram air tube that runs under the gas tank is running beside the gas tank so It can beathe as much as possible and also act as a ram air system. That is why I have the bigger carb.

[nouseforaname90]

Since I have a SuperTrapp (which is a high-flow pipe, correct?), I should experiment with this.
Either remove the airbox lid, or make some kind of "ram air" system like you have and put on an K&N air filter, put on a 350X carb, rejet as needed, and see if I see a difference. I guess I know what I'm doing as soon as I get the money..
Tell me how the 350X carb works out.
And the 350X headlight may be hard for you to find. It took me about a month of searching on eBay and PM'ing forum members to find one for a descent price. And after that, I had to find a new lense and bulb for it!! It was quite the hassle.

[Tri-ZNate]

or make some kind of "ram air" system like you have


You know what I'm talking about by ram air system right? The intake to your airbox that is clamped under the tank when it is stock. I just unclamped it and run it outdise the tank instead of inside. Its really neat because when you ram the throttle you can feel it sucking the air next you leg.

And yeah with 14 disks your trapp is high flow :lol:. I call most performance pipes highflow pipes in case I confused you.

[nouseforaname90]

http://www.supload.com/thumbs/default/ADscn3097.jpg (http://www.supload.com/free/ADscn3097.jpg/view/)

I knew what you meant by ram air. You pretty much explained it in your post. But I was thinking something more like this..
Take some kind of piece of long, flat pipe (kind of like one of those long sweeper heads), and mount it under that black bar on your forks. Then run rubber tubing from that, to the intake boot. That way instead of sucking it through the frame, it would pretty much force it back that pipe to the airbox if you were driving fast enough. And put some kind of drainage hole in it so water cannot get back into the airbox. I don't know. I'd have to think it through more.. but thats the basic concept that I was thinking of..
It would be cool if you could put the air filter actually INSIDE the pipe, and run the pipe straight to the carb so it almost literally forces it into the carb.. but I doubt that'd be very possible.. lol.

This is pretty much the same thing as removing the airbox lid, though. Which would be alot easier.. but I'm a complicated kind of person.

Edit:
Maybe you could somehow get a small, powerful fan and mount it in the intake boot so that it forced air into the airbox? You could probably wire it so that when you turned the key on, it turned on. But I don't know.. it may work?

[Tri-ZNate]

You probably get the same results as taking your air box lid off but like what you said by doing this I feel that at higher speeds its forcing more air in then I was to just take the air box lid off. In my head the tube out next to the tank and lid on should put more air in the airbox as you go.

Also I remember looking at a motorcycle book and in it there was an intake system that ran straight from the carb up the bars and had 2 big funnels with filters inside so no **** could get in. If it is able to be thought of then it can be done.

[nouseforaname90]

I edited my last post..

Well what kind of filters were these, and where were they? I would be afraid of mud getting caked on the filters and restricing airflow, or water soaking the filters. If you can, find the pic of this set up again.
But basically the filters were in the pipe and it put the air directly into the carb?

If I can find some kind of tiny fan that would fit into the boot, and find a way to put the filter in the pipe.. I am going to try this and see how it works. Just for shits and giggles.

[slothminx]

Just for s***s and giggles.

I'm afraid nouse that is all it will be for. :lol: :lol: But if you are still wanting to try it, can i recommend a 12v computer fan? should hook up nicely for your fun. :rolleyes:

[nouseforaname90]

Well it would increase the flow through the engine and there would be SOME kind of gain somewhere, wouldn't there??
I was thinking that you could hook the fan directly to the stator, so that it wasn't full-speed all the time. It would get more power as you went faster, which would make it go faster in turn.
I don't know. I don't know much about engines. I just know that generally increased airflow= gains. If there would be no gains of any kind, I'm not going to do it..

[Tri-ZNate]

If there would be no gains of any kind, I'm not going to do it..


I think more air might be able to get if you had a fan hooked up BUT check the voltages. I think most computer fans are 4.8 volts so you many have to hook it to your harness and hook a resistor up to it as well. IMO not worth the hassel. Take some big ass tubing shove it in the air inlet and run it to the front of the SX like you said. Thats about as good as she will get with the air box on.

[thedeatons]

This sounds like some great ideas for forced air, but in actuality you will notice nothing but time spent. I've been into tuning and riding sportbikes for a number of years, and have read many scientific ram air tests... Ram air only truly helps at ~100mph or higher. Even then ram air did not add horsepower, but rather helped the horsepower at high rpms hold on longer, giving the bike more over-rev capability, which is an advantage on the racetrack. As some of you may know, the cooler the air, the thinner the air, and the thinner the air, the more you can pack into a given space. This is why turbocharged cars have intercoolers, because the turbos generate heat, which in turn heats the air, so the intercooler cools the intake air charge to allow more air into the cylinder. I am telling you this because someone mentioned an electric fan. The electric fan would generate heat at the fan's motor, which is where the air passes by on it's way through the blades. This along with the suction of the intake would bring warmed air into the cylinder, causing a loss of power... Just something to consider... Oh, and taking the airbox lid off only makes the bikes power more susceptible to atmospheric conditions. The airbox serves as a neutral zone for the air, and therefore you do not notice the power difference as much when you ride on a hot day, compared to a mild day. This has been the problem with stage 3 jet kits for sportbikes for years, they either ran great on a good day, or horribly on a hot, humid day... You'll end up sacrificing ridability... Obviously this won't affect you as much in places like SoCal, where the temperature is more constant. James

[freewheel3]

I always thought it was the other way around. The cooler the air is the denser it is. The hotter it is the thinner it is. Eg. Hot air balloon.

[Tri-ZNate]

I always thought it was the other way around. The cooler the air is the denser it is. The hotter it is the thinner it is. Eg. Hot air balloon.


Yeah thats true. And the fan heat wouldnt make any difference because if your riding at 20-30 mph she gonna be cool. But I can see if you were riding long tight trails how it could get hot.

[nouseforaname90]

Hmm. Maybe there is something I could just get and put inside the airbox to make the air cooler instead of using a fan? Like some kind of cooling coil or SOMETHING that would cool the air off inside the box and is electrical. I don't know what though.
If you guys can't tell, I'm getting bored already and want some kind of mod to do to my SX. I NEED to work on it!!! lol

[straight pipe]

i've always wondered what would happen if you put fuel in the shop fridge and ran that...wonder if there would be a difference? and if you somehow separate the airbox and put ice cubes or dry ice in it and run the fuel through it in a copper line, it would also cool the air.might be worth it for kicks. add some race fuel in the mix as well....giver!

[freewheel3]

Well, first you buy the worlds tiniest refridgerator.......just joking. They say that opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one. Here's mine (not my belly button), you have your trike rideable & dependable, enjoy it as it was meant to be. Don't piss money away on mods.
Save that money up & buy something else that was designed to go faster.
Actually in the "old days" we used to run cool cans on our muscle cars. A can with a coil through it. Fuel ran through the coil & we used to put ice or sometimes dry ice in the can.
This allowed us to run high compression pistons w/o detonation problems. Gave us a noticeable increase in power using regular pump gas. I don't understand the technical side of it but I know it worked.

Just to clarify, this was in response to post # 26 by nouse.

[Tri-ZNate]

If you want to run a cooler system connect a heat sink to the fan so the heat from the fan can disapate better and be cooled better. The way I look at it is if you going down the road at 1+ mph your gonna have air going in no matter what. If you want a system so you can get as much air flow as possible remove the air box and strap the filter directly onto the carb and run it like that.

[freewheel3]

Also, just before a drag race, we used to pack ice bags around the intake manifold. We removed them just before we fired the engines up for the race.

[conig]

the big red motor and 250sx motor seem to be extremly under carbed posibly to keep velocity high and keep torque. From what im reading its easy to tune the 350x carb and starting is easier.

[Tri-ZNate]

I doubt i'll have any carb problems since it is jetted right, and might actually run a little lean

[Tri-ZNate]

Ok I went over tonight to tinker with it and think I have some issues. I swapped every electrical part and still no spark. I switch the key switch, on/off headlight switch, cdi, coil, tested the plug in the trike (which had awesome spark), and even added a battery back on to turn it over faster and still nothing. Also when I kick it the neutral light come on BUT when the battery is hooked up the light will not come on, it will spin over but the neutral light wont come on.

I also sanded down my grounds on the frame to make sure contact was being made as well.

[Tri-ZNate]

There has to be something I'm missing.

[Huffa]

Everything was going awesome. I dropped the SX front end this weekend, bolted the 200X front on without a single problem and did it roughly 30 min so I didnt think that was too bad for a first timer, Then today I threw the 350x carb on (didnt even have to modify. Set right in and slid into the 2 intakes like a champ.) Then I hooked the electrical back up and I wasnt getting any spark. So I pulled the other SX over which runs and made sure everything was as it should be. Well it was. So here is what I know.


I'm not running a battery and have everything in the back electrical taped that goes to the battery. It ran just before I dropped the front end and wont run now. When I kick it over the neutral light comes on. I cant figure it out. The only possibility is I hooked it up wrong but the wiring is now Identical to my other SX (and everything is connected together). The kill switch is NOT in the off position and I'm also getting fuel to the cyclinder. Also just for shits and giggles I tried putting the kill switch in all 3 positions (off, on, and off) and it still didnt get spark.


Any ideas? Also I wouldnt think the cdi would go bad in the short amount of time it took to switch front ends.


Lets rewind the tape a bit and go to step one here for a moment.

When you say: " Then I hooked the electrical back up and I wasnt getting any spark"

What exactly on the electrical sytem did you have disconnected as well as off the machine? Give us a step by step process on what you did - EXACTLY.

[Tri-ZNate]

ok exactly...

Before I put the X front end on I primed, painted, and clear coated the handle bars and electricals (except the kill switch, that just got clear coated). And tied the fuse up with a zip tie, tied the ground for the battery down with a zip tie (to the metal plate abouve the carb), tied the cdi to the frame with a zip tie, and tied the positive for the battery to the grab bar. I then kicked it over and it started.

I unhooked the kill switch, on/off switch, unhooked the throttle and choke cables and pulled them back toward the tank.

I dropped the SX front end, put the X front end on, and pulled the cables and electricals back through the front forks.

I hooked up the kill switch, on/off switch, and head light. Put on the 350x carb and was going to start it but realized I forgot the key.

So I took the on/off switch from the other SX and plugged it in and kicked it over repeatedly but it wouldnt start.

We checked that gas was getting in the cyclinder, and it was. We then checked spark and found it wasnt getting any.

We tested the plug on the other SX and it was nice and blue. So we cleaned it up and put it back into the SX-X but still no spark.

So I made sure everything was plugged in all the way and was plugged into where it should be by bringing over the other SX. Everything was as it should be.

I then posted my problem on here and switched out the electricals. In order it was the key switch, kill switch, coil, and CDI. All checked out.

So I reconnected a battery to the SX-X and turned it over and still no spark. When we looked at the nuetral light when the battery was hooked up it wasnt lighting but still the engine kicked over. And when I kicked it the light lit.

Now I am in this perdicament.

[brapp]

here is an idea for yuou 250sx wheelie pop pressurize the airbox with oxygenlol keep a constant 15lbs or so and just have a selinoid liek a nitrious hooked to it for the drags.

[darrel632]

did you check the fuse after all your electrical change overs? one bad connection and the fuse popped. scuff (with 00 or 000 steel wool the area under the kill switch), circut test the coil when you pull it over, see if power is going to the unit. You've gone forward looking for the issue now, you have to go backwards starting at the plug

[conig]

ingecting oxygen is more volitile then nitrious oxygen has been tried it gets way to hot in the cylinder.

It may be your key switch, mine is abit messed up I have to turn the key all the way and then back between the O and N for the word on to have the light go green.

If your getting spark I'm inclined to think it may be fuel, did you thoroughly clean the 350x carb prior to swapping jets?

[TeamGeek6]

ingecting oxygen is more volitile then nitrious oxygen has been tried it gets way to hot in the cylinder.



Not to mention dangerous. BTW, connecting a computer fan to the stator will produce mounds of smoke.

IS there a wiring diagram for the beast in question? Thats the place to start.

[Tri-ZNate]

If your getting spark I'm inclined to think it may be fuel, did you thoroughly clean the 350x carb prior to swapping jets?

Oh I'm getting fuel alright but the spark wont come out of the plug :lol:


did you check the fuse after all your electrical change overs? one bad connection and the fuse popped. scuff (with 00 or 000 steel wool the area under the kill switch), circut test the coil when you pull it over, see if power is going to the unit. You've gone forward looking for the issue now, you have to go backwards starting at the plug


I checked the fuse and it is fine (infact 3 people checked it because they think I'm incompetant). Also when I get a volt meter I'll be sure to check everything.


And teamgeek yes there is a wiring diagram for the SX (it is on the home page, 1985 250sx). I have been staring at it for a while and with no results.

[TeamGeek6]

With an ohmmeter, ignition off, engine stop switch to "ON",
read from frame ground to CDI:

R/B maybe 100-150 ohms
Y/B zero ohms
DG - zero ohms
L/Y- maybe 50 - 150 ohms
G/R = ????
B/W = ???
Battery negative = ??

Then on 20 volt scale, negative to frame, ignition switch on, read CDI G/R.
Post the results.

This is a CDI, not a battery ignition so it may not care about the battery or fuse, except that it looks like a safety from the starter solenoid to the neutral switch to the CDI - that circuit might kill the ignition (?)

[TeamGeek6]

When I kick it over the neutral light comes on.
.

Thats because kicking it over makes the stator and regulator put voltage out, and that lights the bulb. Not good to run that charging system without a battery, the AC voltage goes high. The battery is there for cranking, and to filter the regulator power.

[Tri-ZNate]

I'll let you know friday night since I'll be able to check everything friday.

[jeswinehart]

What ever you want to borrow from my loaner (250es-85) is yours to try Wheeliepops

Just let me know my friend + it will be in the mail the next day.


john

[TeamGeek6]

I suspect the CDI is popped and if so, DONT connect another one to the cycle, it may pop the new one. But I cant say for sure without knowing the test results. May help to have another one to get resistance readings from.

[Tri-ZNate]

I suspect the CDI is popped and if so, DONT connect another one to the cycle, it may pop the new one. But I cant say for sure without knowing the test results. May help to have another one to get resistance readings from.


The cdi is fine as I said before. I swapped cdi's between the 2 SXs and the cdi definatly isnt bad. And I'm gonna go get some reading to work off of now. I'll post them on here so I dont have to try and keep a small piece of paper for 2 days.

[Tri-ZNate]

well the voltmeter I used is broke so it isnt helping me much. Does anyone know the specs for the wires? ex. green kill switch- 5 ohms, .5 amps

[jeswinehart]

Looking at my manual wiring diagram ,,, I think if you unplug the kill switch wires that will in affect by pass the kill switch. only connected together will kill the motor ( or in your case ,,,, not give you spark ).

john

[Tri-ZNate]

I'll be sure to test it out on the one that has spark tomorrow. If it works Ill thank you very much :)

[brapp]

i will be up in the area this weekend and i could help take a look if you want and i coul dbringmy meter and manuals if you think it would help.

[Tri-ZNate]

If you really want to josh your more than welcome. I can bring it up to wysox so it would be closer.

[brapp]

i was just going to say bring it down to the house and we can work on it and also do a little riding afterwards, even if we dont get it done i have plenty of trikes up in the hills.

[Tri-ZNate]

ok cool I'll see if I cant get a truck.

[Dads]

200x the ground is the frame. can not compair that to a SX. SX grounds are in the wireing harness. To change front ends you had all the connectors apart. Did you put dyoelctric grease on them. If not do it. if all the wires are plugged in right you can unplug the left side switches. if still no go test the coil. Or put one on off a running trike. They will quit just like that.
I hope you welded on the 200x steering stop or your runnig a crap tank. Because that is the stop now.

And the 350 carb will give you great top end. But blows in the mud. loads up and kills engine if you bog down and engine rpm drops low. the SX does mud in second gear the best. first is to low. spins the tires to fast.

[Tri-ZNate]

200x the ground is the frame. can not compair that to a SX. SX grounds are in the wireing harness. To change front ends you had all the connectors apart. Did you put dyoelctric grease on them. If not do it. if all the wires are plugged in right you can unplug the left side switches. if still no go test the coil. Or put one on off a running trike. They will quit just like that.
I hope you welded on the 200x steering stop or your runnig a crap tank. Because that is the stop now.


No i didnt use dyoelctric grease. And i did try a coil from another SX.

Also I found out about the steering stop thing too after I put it on. I turned it and thought to myself.. hmmm that might hit, so I put a gas tank on and sure enough it hit. I have some homemade stops made and they will get welded on friday.

[Dads]

you can bypass the key switch with a jumper wire at the connecter. Big black wire and big red. this the key switch test. and I think the two seprit wires to the key switch can be swithed and it will not start. kills the CDI just like the kill switch does.

[TeamGeek6]

"Did you put dyoelctric grease on them. If not do it."

DO NOT put "dyoelctric" (can we spell?) in the connectors!!!!!!!! This wil ruin them.

The engineers that designed that harness did not intend for grease to be put in them. Doing so will allow the oil in the grease to soak through the crimp terminals and eventually ruin them.

This happened on the Goldwings after Honda put out a "CYA" service bulletin about "dielectric grease" and it caused more connector failures.

Grease can be put in connectors that are specifically designed for it, but these arent.

"Dielectric grease" is for HIGH VOLTAGE applications, is there high voltage in your charging system? No.

If you want to keep water out, wrap the connector in PVC or friction tape.

[Dads]

You’re comparing a gold wing to a 20-year-old trike.
The cheap plating they put on connectors does not last forever.
And Honda will tell you to use only OEM parts. Bet you don’t.
And if you don’t take about my spelling, I wont take about your ignorance.

[Tri-ZNate]

Well I'm back to square 1. I couldnt get a truck so I couldnt bring it up to brapp's and I have no volt meter right now so im kinda screwed. I have to figure something out because my want to ride it with the new pipe and front end is so bad thhat last night I had a dream I all of a sudden got spark and was riding all over. It sounded a litle quiet though, I was very uninpressed :lol:

[jeswinehart]

a multi tester that is ( and a little something else I picked up from trikefest05- I hope it fits ).
You would have had it by now but the postal people decided to read the very fine print on the box I used and rejected it for shippment ,,, AGGGG !
So I put a couple peices of tape on it and re-sent.
It's not a high quality tester but if it helps ,,, all is good.


I agree with dads 100% ,,,, anything to help make cotact is better then nothing ,,, not to mention the fact the connections will come apart easier.
WD-40 is a great eletrical contact cleaner (along with hundreds of other uses) ,,,

john

[Tri-ZNate]

Thanks Swinehart but I figured it out :w00t:. I disconnected the nuetral light and reverse light from the harness and put the aside and looked at two connectors, 1 group had 2 rubber gripper ends and 1 group had just the bare wire. Well I said to myself "well you arent gonna **** it up any more" so I switched them around kicked it over hard and shocked myself pretty good :w00t:.

So i put the tank on and went for a ride. Went good for about a mile then died on me. I put the choke on and rode it back. I shuit the gas off and I realized gas was leaking. I pulled the carb float off and everything was clean but I think I'm missing a jet. Anyway I'm very happy now and I love the suspension travel of the X front end! Thanks all. I'll send you back you meter when I get it Swinehart. Thanks for the thought.

[jeswinehart]

It is yours to keep pops. You done me good on the starter buddy.

[Tri-ZNate]

Oh ok Thank you. I appreciate that John.

[brapp]

glad to hear you got it runnign now just gotta figure out a few other problems dont hesitate to call with any questions.

[Tri-ZNate]

I took the carb apart and it looked like there was water sitting in it recently. So it is sitting in gasoline for 2 weeks now. and my neighbor snapped my a/f screw so i'm a little unhappy right now.