Ok Ill do it Teamgeek we have questions

[jenndnn3]

If this is the wrong forum I deeply apologize. But I see alot in the other threads and frankly I want to know about this as well, but not at the sake of highjacking someones thread, so without further adoo here goes.

Team My first question,
Please define "energy" In your link at your signature. I am gonna assume like everything else this would mean voltage, is that a correct assumption? If so how much voltage have you gained? If it is not true, please explian how you got more energy, without the voltage.

2nd
I see you working on the flywheel in your picts in your link, what exactly are you doing to it?

3rd
Do you change out the whole wiring system, and if so what do you use?

4th
What timing changes, if any have you made? Forward backward or none at all?

5th
Have you lowered your compression at all within the cylinder?

This isnt a direct attack on your ideas, just wanting some clarifications. I am in agreement that the system is weak. I would say certian things are possible, but this one is almost to good to be true.
Based on what you are running I do not see it possible, but even that can be argued via you are not useing the fuel we are useing ourselves (if that makes sense) Which would give 6th question, what airbox mods have you made? I can only assume you have cut the air back as well?

I will start with this, and you just pretend I know absolutly nothing about the ignition system via cdi. So if you could keep it fairly simple in your responses that would be greatly appreciated! I am sure alot more questions will follow, not from me but they will come.


Oh yeah forgot a question, multi spark or one solid strong spark?

[OldSchoolin86]

Sorry Jenn but I'd like to take a stab in the dark.


Team My first question,
Please define "energy" In your link at your signature. I am gonna assume like everything else this would mean voltage, is that a correct assumption? If so how much voltage have you gained? If it is not true, please explian how you got more energy, without the voltage.
He's upping everything by rewinding the stator.


2nd
I see you working on the flywheel in your picts in your link, what exactly are you doing to it?
He's not doing anything to the flywheel. It's set up in the press so he can test the ignition system.


3rd
Do you change out the whole wiring system, and if so what do you use?
The only thing he's changing is the windings on the stator. The factory uses something they can call quality, mass produce and not go for broke. He uses a lot higher quality to make more energy.


4th
What timing changes, if any have you made? Forward backward or none at all?
I'm thinking he's not making any but if he was he's not advancing. By spreading the plug gap to .060-.080 and upping the energy to jump it he's probably getting a cooler more effective spark.


5th
Have you lowered your compression at all within the cylinder?
Nope, if anything he's slightly bumped it.


Oh yeah forgot a question, multi spark or one solid strong spark?
One strong spark.

Again this was just a stab in the dark. I too am interested in what the answers are.

[Troll 2]

I was wondering if the ignition work descibed included the stator being rewound? Sort of hard to tell in the work desciption; http://gl1200harness.tripod.com/2signition.html

* Measure and record the exact resistance and inductance of the stator, pulse coil and ignition coil on electronic test equipment
* Run the system on test bench to be sure it works
* Overhaul the wiring harness, eliminating bad connections that cause misfire
* Modify the ignition system for greater spark energy
* Test the entire system
* Re-check the resistances and inductances of the coils
* Modify the spark plug for more efficiency and electrically tune the spark plug circuit
* New spark plug cap if needed
* Supply you with the coil measurements to detect a failing coil later
* Send it back COD, includes Insurance


I was also interested in how he measures the secondary voltage output. It would be nice to see a oscilloscope rather than a analog meter. http://gl1200harness.tripod.com/250rignition.gif


Nice to see his background though: http://gl1200harness.tripod.com/harness.html#installsvc
* Electronic Technician and Research and Development Engineer for about 25 years
* Inventor of the Original GL1200 Harness
* Motorcycle rider and ATV racer with over 150,000 miles on two and three wheels
* Former National Technical Director for AGWA
* Author of Technical articles on GL 1200s for AGWA
* Former Technical Rep for GWRRA Chapter *, Celina, Ohio
* Member Society of Automotive Engineers
* Listed Marquis Whos-Who in Engineering

Other misc links; http://gl1200harness.tripod.com/2signition.html
http://gl1200harness.tripod.com/2signition.html
http://gl1200harness.tripod.com/owt.html
http://3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?t=38765&page=3

[TeamGeek6]

Team My first question,
Please define "energy" In your link at your signature. I am gonna assume like everything else this would mean voltage, is that a correct assumption? If so how much voltage have you gained? If it is not true, please explian how you got more energy, without the voltage.

2nd
I see you working on the flywheel in your picts in your link, what exactly are you doing to it?

3rd
Do you change out the whole wiring system, and if so what do you use?

4th
What timing changes, if any have you made? Forward backward or none at all?

5th
Have you lowered your compression at all within the cylinder?

This isnt a direct attack on your ideas, just wanting some clarifications. I am in agreement that the system is weak. I would say certian things are possible, but this one is almost to good to be true.
Based on what you are running I do not see it possible, but even that can be argued via you are not useing the fuel we are useing ourselves (if that makes sense) Which would give 6th question, what airbox mods have you made? I can only assume you have cut the air back as well?

I will start with this, and you just pretend I know absolutly nothing about the ignition system via cdi. So if you could keep it fairly simple in your responses that would be greatly appreciated! I am sure alot more questions will follow, not from me but they will come.


Oh yeah forgot a question, multi spark or one solid strong spark?



Oh, sorry, I didnt see your post. Ok. Ill try to keep it basic.

My answers are from experience, 35 years of electronics study and work and a couple horribly expensive books on a PhD level on spark formation, and a Technical Paper or three from the Society of Automotive Engineers.

The rest of you kids kindly state your sources, then we can chat.

1.) "Please define "energy" In your link at your signature."

Energy, in Physics, is the ability to do work. Its impossible to get "something for nothing" so a certain amount of spark energy is needed to burn the air / fuel mixture in the engines cylinders.

Energy in electronics is electricity. Any source of electricity (battery, power in the house) is a product of Voltage x Current.

There is a relationship between spark energy and how efficient (fast, good, etc) the combustion in the engine is. This relationship is extremely complicated.

In a gasoline engine (not diesel) the spark must first provide a high voltage
that, put crudely, activates the spark plug gap. This "activation" is extremely ugly Physics, some of which blows my mind.

Once the spark gap is activated, a current must flow between the spark plug electrodes and this causes a chemical reaction between the gasoline and air.

Voltage is not energy. Voltage is like water pressure in a pipe, with no water flow. Current is like water flow through a water meter. Energy in a water system is what makes the water meter go around.

2.) The flywheel is mounted on a small drill press that simulates the engine crankshaft. This test stand allows me to run the ignition on the bench as if the engine were running, and use an oscilloscope ( electronic equipment to look at electrical signals) to test and measure it.

3.) I dont change any wiring, the wires are not the problem, the connectors are. I either eliminate them, or replace then with new ones and solder them together.

About 1992 I did research on bad wiring in the Honda Goldwings GL1200 touring cycle and published it in AGWA (American Goldwing Association) where I was the National Technical Director and Author.

Later I applied this to the 250R and got about the same results, a much better running engine.

4.) Ive spent 3 years researching spark intensity, timing will come later.
So far, the 2 stroke doesnt like timing changes, although in a 4 stroke, I generally increase the ignition energy and retard the timing.

5.) I see you know something about automotive engines... No i havent, thats next up on the platter.

This is a large problem, engine builders usually increase compression but fail to compensate for it in ignition. Once compression is increased, the ignition may fail to light the gap *at the same timing setting* because the instant cylinder pressure it much higher. So they end up advancing the timing and the cylinders overheat.

6.) "...the system is weak.." Its OK for stock applications IF the wiring is good. Most of the gains I found were just in fixing the flaky wiring back to stock (CDI plug mainly). Things like that cost power as the motorcycle gets older and its not noticed until its put back right and then it looks like a giant power increase. Sort of like walking down the road and picking up rocks, after a while its hard to walk until we drop all the rocks.

"...using the same (or less) amount of fuel..." I understand your point, but this gets very complicated, mostly because it takes very expensive test equipment to do proper tuning.

Jet size does not determine how much fuel is *used* in the first case. It is secondary. Cylinder efficiency (cylinder design, spark quality, burn duration, cylinder temperature and a 100 other things...) does.

"How much fuel is used" is the key, if the cylinder and ignition are efficient, that (in a crude way) makes a fuel surplus. Have a weak spark (or misfiring one) and the fuel demand goes up. It has to do with strength of the arc in the plug gap, a weak spark demands more fuel to light the gap, all other things held equal.

There is a Keihin 132 main jet in my PJ right this minute and while I won't say what other mods, its even leaner than that when running. Id guess around the low 120s. Its not a matter of belief, drive on over here and look at it. Jump on it, ride it, then come back and Ill take the carb apart. Ill take the jets out and show them to you, but you cant see the insides of the carb, thats secret. No, I wont explain what the extra hoses are for :naughty: , sorry, theres only so much Ill give away for free.

I know its hard to believe because mechanics are limited to adjusting mechanical things (jets, compression, porting) and for the most part, know absolutely nothing about electronics. I have no limits except $$, because I have access to the best there is in automotive engineering and technology through the SAE and other sources. If I have a question about fuel chemistry, I just E-mail one of our *.S. Federal labs and ask a rocket scientist.

This all started by my noticing what "everyone said cant be done" then going and trying it. Most of it can be done, but its not a matter of walking up to the average 250R and changing a 155 jet for a 132, yes, itll probably blow up.

Tuning is a very long drawn out process. Its taken me 2-3 years to tune this 250 R to this level of jetting.

Airbox - no lid, increase the air as far as possible. I wont say where certain little air leaks are or other off the wall things... Engines are all about air.

[Oldshell4481]

holy monkeyballs, atleast it sounds like you know whats up :p if i could finish reading that and understand it it would be a miracle.. simple minds :D

[Dammit!]

but its not a matter of walking up to the average 250R and changing a 155 jet for a 132, yes, itll probably blow up.

Tuning is a very long drawn out process. Its taken me 2-3 years to tune this 250 R to this level of jetting.

Which is why you have to be careful talking about it on internet forums. Until now you've been giving a very incomplete picture of what you're doing which will get some poor soul to try it and burn a hole in their piston.

[max]

Very Informative.

[jenndnn3]

Thank you!


The rest of you kids kindly state your sources, then we can chat Be easy, I am just a lowly little ole housewife, with absolutly no formal training! :p

[Troll 2]

I never knew a spark energy gain of 30% was possible by "eliminating connectors or replace them with new ones and solder them together" . Hmmm....?
Then if your modifying your carb to run extra fuel by "secret" means. Well I guess thats why the main jet is so small. Good greif.............. :rolleyes:
Come on, lets play............................................ :naughty:

[OldSchoolin86]

Very dazzling but as I suspected you have failed to contribute anything new to the members of this board. You gave us some nice little bits of info that aren't to useful without the rest. If you were here to help you'd actually offer up what you’re doing but your not. Instead you're here to pat yourself on the back and say look at me, I took 3 yrs to "tune" my 250R. Hey, good for you, I'm glad you found a different way to tune your bike. Until you decide to stop dazzling and start teaching I'll keep learning from the members around here that only need 2 weeks to build a world class engine. I'll keep talking to the members that don't enjoy trying to talk over others and instead are here to celebrate our sport.

Just my....
http://www.lisalees.com/~anita/images/2cents.jpg

[bigredhead]

Well.. if this means anything.

Having a Battery powered bike conversion on 36v SLA ( Sealed Lead Acid ) 12 a/h ( amp/hour) 2nd hand.. all spliced up and crimped here and connector there, add a key lock in the circuit, etc..... ran that for a few weeks and then spend a weekend re-wiring the thing with heavier gauge wire.. properly soldered connections with silver solder fully taped and sealed.. removed the key portion completely .... etc...

And just that gave me another 5 km worth of mileage on the same batteries... better connections.. less resistance ( ohms ) resulting in less heat buildup in the controler etc..... was pretty impressive.

Apply that to 20 year old coroded connectors full of rust and mud/sand.. rusted mounts bad grounds....... i'm sure it all adds up !!! I"m curious to know how much tho.

Geek: Can you use a multimeter somehow to figure out your voltage to the plug ? Both before and after going thru the harness and cleaning/ soldering , sanding down the frame contacts . .. . . .

[bigredhead]

Oh.. and since this is a " Discussion Forum " .

Are you planning on marketing patenting and making money from your " Tuning " somehow ?

Cuz if you don't.. god man spill the beans.. no reason to keep secrets otherwise.

That's like poking your head in a kindergarden and yelling " Candy anyone ? " and closing the door. geeez.

[seadoo650]

Oh.. and since this is a " Discussion Forum " .

Are you planning on marketing patenting and making money from your " Tuning " somehow ?

Cuz if you don't.. god man spill the beans.. no reason to keep secrets otherwise.

That's like poking your head in a kindergarden and yelling " Candy anyone ? " and closing the door. geeez.

Inquiring minds want to know.

[jenndnn3]

Yes lets keep it at discussion level please...


Anyway Team I know I said no more questions so I lied, I apologize,,

Along with bigred question I have one as well. What is your A/F mixture now? And if you could tell us please what honda recommends? Or what factory settings are?

[Jason Hall]

Well now that we all understand what energy & voltage is. I personaly think that the end result is who cross's the finish line first. Sounds like the extra hoses are a dial a jet set up, with that you can lean your main way back & pull the extra feul needed , so not to melt your piston. How bout some 300 foot times. To hell with all the electrical talk. I love when someone tells me I can't do something. I have been a wrench for 15 years & some of this stuff is just funny to listen to, the kid stuff i think is pissing alot of people off. When you rub stuff in soneone's face & give out nothing, especially on a site here to help your fellow 3 wheeler dude out, does'nt make you very popular. I would almost bet with all your tech, there are a bunch of us that port & do some other secret tricks to our R's, would run rite past your ridiculously fast ride. When you said its all about air your rite, I'll give out some needed info the more air you can pack into the pipe, the better you will run. Especially with the rite pipe. I think if you can't share the knowledge then don't talk. When do we get our chance to run that animal, cause i would love a chance, with my hillbilly port work, & mechanical knowledge. Every 250-r I have makes so much power you can hardly shift them, bring it on. :twisted: :( Another thing kid why did'nt you just go buy a late model cr ignition system like i did? :naughty: :wondering :crazy: If there is one thing i love, its a smart ass. :beer

[bigredhead]

WOLF.... WOLF !!!!!!! :lol:

[Billy Golightly]

Well now that we all understand what energy & voltage is. I personaly think that the end result is who cross's the finish line first. Sounds like the extra hoses are a dial a jet set up, with that you can lean your main way back & pull the extra feul needed , so not to melt your piston. How bout some 300 foot times. To hell with all the electrical talk. I love when someone tells me I can't do something. I have been a wrench for 15 years & some of this stuff is just funny to listen to, the kid stuff i think is pissing alot of people off. When you rub stuff in soneone's face & give out nothing, especially on a site here to help your fellow 3 wheeler dude out, does'nt make you very popular. I would almost bet with all your tech, there are a bunch of us that port & do some other secret tricks to our R's, would run rite past your ridiculously fast ride. When you said its all about air your rite, I'll give out some needed info the more air you can pack into the pipe, the better you will run. Especially with the rite pipe. I think if you can't share the knowledge then don't talk. When do we get our chance to run that animal, cause i would love a chance, with my hillbilly port work, & mechanical knowledge. Every 250-r I have makes so much power you can hardly shift them, bring it on. :twisted: :( Another thing kid why did'nt you just go buy a late model cr ignition system like i did? :naughty: :wondering :crazy: If there is one thing i love, its a smart ass. :beer


You know, as I was sitting on the pot this morning I was thinking about this and 2 comments stuck out to me. 120 main jet and extra hoses in the carb then it hit me, Dial a Jet! Hahaha thats what it has to be. And then I also thought of another thing we haven't heard of in a while, Roost Boost! More powerful spark, Increased fuel burn, More power! Mystery Solved! :lol:

[jenndnn3]

Unless he is somehow burning the air rather then the gas. Actually it would be better to say something else, burning is not a good word. Fire needs the oxegyn. It has be a truley truley hot bubby to need that much air.

[Dammit!]

I was thinking some form of power jet rather than a DAJ.

[TeamGeek6]

Yes lets keep it at discussion level please...


Anyway Team I know I said no more questions so I lied, I apologize,,

. What is your A/F mixture now? And if you could tell us please what honda recommends? Or what factory settings are?

I do not know because I don't have an exhaust gas analyzer. I can tell you that if I throw in a new plug and go for a short ride, theres nothing on the electrodes or porcelain but a little liquid oil. Insulator = white

Optimum AFR is 14.7 : 1 and I shoot for the lean side of it. The A/F mixture limits for a spark - ignition gasoline engine are 12:1 on the rich side and 16 - 21:1 or so on the lean side. Anything in between is possible, the 16 - 21 :1 range only works with high energy ignition and special cylinder designs (stratified charge engines).

Honda does not recommed A/F mixtures. Their engineers design in whatever they want and thats specified through stock jetting. Stock jetting is somewhere around 140 - 150 main and 42 - 45 slow jet and 1-5 clip setting, depending on temperature, thats whats printed in my original ATC250R Owners Manual.

Honda does recommend oil premix ratio of 20:1 in the 86 250R, I have run as heavy as 10:1 but its not easy to do, and I've never found a good reason to do it for long, this engine is still on stock bore and stroke even after racing it at 50:1 premix so whats the point? :wondering

If youre interested in spark plugs and things, PM me and Ill send you a link to the research paper I tune from. Itl cost you $12.00 to download but its worth every penny.

[Troll 2]

I thought the a/f ratio was 14.7:1 at cruise, then richens up to 12:1 under power?

[TeamGeek6]

No, its not a Dial a Jet, that doesnt have 4 hoses and a fuel pump and I wont say what else. I design and build my own mods, not buy them.

No, its not a Roost Boost, thats a gimmick that advances timing a few degrees by putting a choke in the pulse coil. Anyone can accomplish that by just changing the position of the flywheel.

Put down the Popular Hot Rod and M/X magazines and grab a Chemistry book! :naughty:

[bigredhead]

you should work for AMWAY !

[Lots_Of_Nothing]

The same ones I saw. My ATC250R went from "can't pull the front wheel" with a dull
orange spark, to pulling the front wheel in 2 gears. It almost slid me off the seat first
time I hit the gas.

...From your site.. After saying "what performance gains can I expect"...

Just didnt make sence to me, My R, with a few mods by me, a chemistry flunk.. Could pull the wheel up in 4th. And it did rip your arms if you got on the gas.

It just doesnt seem to make sence to me why you call it high performance.. So basically all you do is re-solder or "fix" connections? Hell, any idiot with a half semester high school class of "basic electricity" could do that.

The only reason I can think of you running a fuel pump is to simply force feed the engine. Which again, takes no chemisty skill at all, Just a simple yahoo search and some parts off ebay... Forcing the fuel would also allow you to run the smaller jet.., and make the fuel enter at a much higher velocity.. Is this your big secret?

And about the fuel/oil mixture,, Hell dude, running 20:1 with todays oils would give you the ability to run jets down to 120 or less. I always ran amsoil at 75:1 with a 136 main and never had any problems.

My sources? A few failed classes and some common sence.

[Troll 2]

Untill I see your scope, exhaust gas analyzer, or dyno sheets. It will be hard to give you money. Your results are just "therory".................................... :crazy:
Shoot, I could run a 001 main jet, just add other ways to deliver the fuel. You'll still need the a/f ratio to be 14.7-1 at cruise and then richen under load. Why tought a small main jet when your compensating by other means.
Are you saying your a/f ratio is less than optimum? Lets hear it.

[Jason Hall]

There is one more thing he might have, but I just don't see the need for it. He might have a pump around feul system on it, It does away with the float. There used on go- carts that need feul pumps (tank is lower than the carb). But I see no reason for the need for that unit on a 250-r. If you want big flow just get a pwk D slide they feed 330cc,& 310cc, engines. I just don't see where you will gain from it. From what I have read on the punp around system is its a bandaid for a incorectly adjusted float or a carb that can't handle the high volume/ pressure from a feul pump. No wonder it took you a month of sundays to jet it. I also think that you have taken your high school chemistry, & tried it to something that does not need it. Somebody needs to race this thing!!!

[NOS_350X]

Yall gota rember fuel pump = methanol or alochol. Thats real common on quads why not on a bike. Come to think of it you do get the extra hoses when you have a carb set up for methanol i dono what for but ive seen em. That would also explain the smaller jet. When you run methanol you jet your bike down because you no longer need a as much fuel. I still want to see how fast this r is not just you talking crap about everyone on the board. Back your s*** up with more than some big words.

[jenndnn3]

I am having a hard time coralating a few things,

Based on some things you have stated you are running less gas, Is this true? Or are you just delivering the gas in different forms? This why I asked your A/F. I wanted to know what it is. Honda may not recommend them, however you will still have a slight baseline. Based on their recommended jetting, and mixes.

The whole oil thing however just throws me way off. Correct me if I am wrong here but isnt fuel/air mixture different from the oil Jetting? Now what alot of folks have a tough time with, including myself, is when they start to change the oil ratios, they dont concept more oil equals less gass coming through while the opposit is true. Oil does not burn like gas. (this is when the same jets are used) But your statement is what is confusing me here perhaps some clarification on it? And I quote

Honda does recommend oil premix ratio of 20:1 in the 86 250R, I have run as heavy as 10:1 but its not easy to do, and I've never found a good reason to do it for long, this engine is still on stock bore and stroke even after racing it at 50:1 premix so whats the point?

Perhaps an explianation or more clarification if you dont mind.

Second This question was asked of bigredhead
Geek: Can you use a multimeter somehow to figure out your voltage to the plug ? Both before and after going thru the harness and cleaning/ soldering , sanding down the frame contacts Are there any changes?

It simply comes down to this, when you first showed up on the boards, Your claim is less gas, less oil, Alot more air and alot more spark energy. (big evils to us 2 strokers) And the 250r still has same or more power then before. I am not asking your secrets. I just want an understanding of some of the things you did. Like A/f mixture, how much energy you gained, how many more voltages, some of your engine mods, and so on. I think I understand the implications of this if you have indeed accomplished what you claim. A 2 stroke with a strong lowend, and still keeping the torque and revs through all the gears. Or not forsaking the top. Am I understanding correctly?




Last Certian questions are not asked because I dont know the answer, they are asked to complete the full picture. Does this make sense?

Edit this was brought to my attention as to I didnt catch it How do you modify the spark plug? And what do we do if we need a new spark plug?

[Quickonstep]

Edit this was brought to my attention as to I didnt catch it How do you modify the spark plug? And what do we do if we need a new spark plug?
__________________

ill answer that one jenn..

sorry geek, i know that must chap your ass to know you cant "sell" this idea.

To mod your plug.. basically what your doing is setting the plug to fire towards the exhuast port.. its not a HUGE increase, but it does help.. and it isnt quite as useful in a thumper as it is in a pinger.. basically what you do is you shim the plug.. i said SHIM dont be a hick and throw a washer in there.. ill explain that in a minute.. you basically want the open end of the gap to stop at the exhuast port.. Then there are some other things you can do.. if you take your head off, and look at the plug while it is installed, file any thing that might hang down.. ie. threads.. you basically only want the electrode and gap in the combustion chamber..

You will notice a slight difference once you do this.. and you will get different results for pointing the gap in different directions..

ALOT of boating guys do somthing simlar, they will mod the plugs, and then when #1 is on the power stroke, have the blade of the propeller hitting the water.. some say it works, others swear by it.. its called indexing the prop..

So basically your indexing the plug to fire where you want it too.. and PLUG GAP IS IMPORTANT.. if its off, youll get poor results..

In my rc boats, i run a plug that accually sticks into the combustion chamber more that has about a .020 clearence to the piston, that has gained a bit more power, not alot, but has done it and i wouldnt reccommend somone doing that unless they have the proper tools to make sure the plug wont hit the piston..

Hope that helps you.. ill check back in later and see what else is shakin.

Jesse