No Wheelies on my 185S?? HELP!

[thedeatons]

Hey all,

I am just curious... I remember my 70 and then 110, and my dad's 200S from when I was younger, and when you hit the thumb throttle on those in first gear, they all lurched really well, and if you knew how you could get the front wheel up fairly easily, and get into a good wheelie...
I am restoring a 1981 185S and every once in a while I take it up the street on the pavement (still has old shot tires, will not ruin the new ones this way!). Now, when I hit the thumb throttle in first it just thumps away, nice and slow, with no intent on wheelie-ing at all. My dad said it should jerk the front wheel up pretty easily, being a four stroke 185cc bike... I have recently done the clutch adjustment, consisting of: "loosening the nut on the right side engine cover, turning the flat head screw counter-clockwise until it shows slight resistance, then turning back clockwise 1/4 turn" - as described in a previous thread. I have not ridden it since then as I am restoring the wheels, but when they are done I may see if that made a difference.
Finally the question: I was wondering if you guys thought it would make a difference if I replaced the clutch plates and/or springs on this engine? Does anyone have any feedback on this replacement and what it did for them? Everything on the bike is stock by the way, with low hours put on by the original owner's wife. I am an experienced "one-wheeler", so I know my technique is correct.... Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, James

[BIGCRIP28]

what about the centrifugal clutch? (how are the shoes?)

[Tri-ZNate]

does it bog when you hit the gas and then take off or does it rev up and slowly take off?

[RideRed250R]

put your foot down on the shifter and leave it there dont let it come up.. then give alittle gas and let the lever up... it will "pop" the clutch and you will be on you butt in no time lol
adam

[Mike_Ham_250R]

put your foot down on the shifter and leave it there dont let it come up.. then give alittle gas and let the lever up... it will "pop" the clutch and you will be on you butt in no time lol
adam
LMAO, but anyway, im about 180lbs 6'0" and if you get in like the middle of second gear and lean back in pin the throttle it should do a very nice wheelie for you. I can hold them forever, so, I bet there might be something wrong.

[Mike_Ham_250R]

And long wheelies like the one shown above are supposed to be bad for the engine, so don't hold them as long as I do. LOL

[Mike_Ham_250R]

LMAO, but anyway, im about 180lbs 6'0" and if you get in like the middle of second gear and lean back in pin the throttle it should do a very nice wheelie for you. I can hold them forever, so, I bet there might be something wrong.
Wait, don't pin the throttle if you don't wanna end up on your ass. I usually have it a mid throttle, jerk it back while giving it a little bit more throttle and then work from that. Heh

[thedeatons]

Hey guys...

Let me reiterate... It's not a technique issue... I know and understand how to wheelie up and down the block all day long on a sportbike, mountain bike or just about anything else with two wheels... My issue is that it just pulls away slowly no matter how hard I hit the gas... It doesn't sound like the clutch is slipping when I do it, like I've heard on other bikes in the past... I just need to know what to check when I get the wheels back on... Like I mentioned, I did the clutch adjustment, and am just not sure what to go for after that if it still isn't jerking off the line when I hit the gas. I would imagine it would be either clutch springs or fiber plates. That is what I am questioning: What differences have you guys noticed when you replaced these specific parts???

[83185s]

is it smoking or anything? you may need to adjust the timing, get a fresh top end rebuild or clean the carb and clean the header out...you can get some pipe cleaner thingies..the big ones..not the little ones and just run them through and youll see all the crap fall out..and clean out the silencer too...it may get a little more power if you just take out the baffle..how long has it been since a top end rebuild?..it may just need freshend up a bit thats all..dont quote me on any of this cause im not sure...but mine never had a problem with doing wheelies..i doubtin its your clutch

[Yamahauler]

Well, he says it pulls away slowly when he hits the gas, I am assuming it is revving normally when you punch it, but it just doesnt seem to be moving as fast as the motor is going.
From that, I would say that it is you friction plates in your clutch, just take the right case cover off, pull the pressure plate off the clutch and take the springs, friction plates and clutch discs out. Measure the springs and the friction plates and make sure there within spec. chech for warpage of the clutch discs.

[bigredhead]

Got a compression tester ???.... would give you an idea of the condition of the motor itself. valves.. piston rings. etc.

How's your oil ? changed it lately ? i know my SX has clutch problems with old oil in it. runs much better on a fresh change.

[thedeatons]

Hey Guys,

Okay, now I feel like we're getting somewhere.... Let me attempt to answer everyone's questions. I have fresh oil in the engine. Non-synthetic, Honda brand, I believe it's 10w30 and I live around San Diego (to give you a temperature idea). I do not have a compression tester. Sears has a nice kit with adapters, but I'm having trouble with the $50 price tag. I do not know what the compression is at this time. I believe there is a note written in the paperwork about head work being done in the early to mid nineties, but I cannot remember right now for sure. I also know the bike has low hours, especially in the last few years.
As far as smoking goes, there is none. The carb was just rebuilt by yours truly, and a new needle and jet were added (OEM Honda, stock size jet), along with all new O rings. It idles okay, but seems to flutter a bit, and sometimes even after it's warmed up it will cut off when idling (in the garage). The exhaust is fine, as it was taken off at the dealer in '81, then when I bought it I reinstalled it.
I may try Yamahauler's idea of taking the right side case cover off next, and checking things out. That will give me an excuse to buy a manual.... If anyone would like to go into detail about removing gthe pressure plate to check the friction plates, that would be great. I've done this job on a couple sportbikes before, and am not sure of the differences. Can anyone describe an easy way to check the timing? There is a possibility that the CDI box may have been turned a bit while I was working on things:) So I may need to readjust that. Thanks for the great help so far! James

[bigredhead]

Hey.. how bout weight on the front end ?.. does your 185 have solid forks or suspension ? what size tire you got ? racks ? gearing changed from stock ?

all these things can make or break a wheelie machine !

[thedeatons]

Solid forks, no racks, 22x11x8 and stock gearing... pretty much think stock, just old.... compression tester is being borrowed tomorrow... will post more... James

[Tri-ZNate]

check the splines on your wheels. :D if they are getting worn you might have this problem

[thedeatons]

Splines appear to be fine... I just did the timing adjustment, placing the severely scratched up flywheel at the "F" mark, and matching the marks under my CDI cover. The timing was off, my rotor was pointed to the left (rear of the bike) of the other line about 1/4"-3/8". After I get my wheels powdered and my new tires on I will see if these two things helped out. The next step will be to pull of the right case cover... I think I'll check the compression tomorrow evening first though. Anyone have an NOS Coil/plugwire and other ignition parts for my 185S??? I'd love to renew the electrical system... OEM Honda only, as this is a complete restoration. Thanks, James

[thedeatons]

Okay guys,

I checked the compression this evening. I did the "One long pull" test, as described in another thread (found using the search feature), while holding the throttle wide open. 2 out of 3 got me 88-90 psi on the gauge. I'm hoping this is okay, as I have not yet found a manual. I would like to know what the gap is supposed to be between the rotor and the pickup under the CDI cover. I have feeler gauges, and am not afraid to use them! If anyone can help with that, I can get that set also. I'm hoping that between the timing and gap setting, along with the clutch adjustment it will feel like new once I get the wheels and tires on. By the way, I'm betting on the mixture being right on, as the carb internals are new, and the pipe is virtually unused, not to mention the plug is a gorgeous light tan. I love the ideas you guys are giving me, keep them coming. Once I get the gap set correctly I may try and check the fiber plates out, along with the springs. It's a good time, as the oil is drained.... Thanks so far!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! James

[bigredhead]

I beleive the compression should read 130 ish psi... 80 to 90 is low.

hold throttle wide open.. choke off... pull a few times...

[corndawg]

also, the faster you can turn the engine over the better, i learned that on a tractor i was working on at school, the bat was low on it and it was cranking slow and would only read about 60 psi on each cylinder, i was about to pull the head and see what was up with the valves and clylinders, thankfully my ag mech advisor gave me the idea of hooking up the bat charger and turning it over, when it was turning fast it read over 130psi, we ended up doing a 3 angle vavle grind job on the valves and seats for kicks lol.....just a thought :wondering

[thedeatons]

Okay guys,

So, do I keep pulling until the reading doesn't go any higher?? I pull once, long and quickly, from leaning over until my arm was full reach, which felt like it brought the piston up two to three times.... I'd like specific instructions if you don't mind... Throttle was wide open, and choke lever was all the way down (isn't that off??!?!?) Sorry, that seems like it's so simple, but I can't remember.... James

[bigredhead]

My tester's instructions say to put the plug tip to the wire and ground it to the head ( to protect the bike's electricals ) then use the electric start to crank it over aprox 5 compression cycles.

Since they say to use the electric start if you have it.. i would say crank it a few times like you usually do to start it with throttle wide open and choke OFF.. and take a reading.

Engine Cold or at operating temps tho i'm not sure about... if it makes a difference or not. More fun to work on a cold engine tho.

[foster]

Choke down = choke off.
This is a great thread. I'm learning a lot.

[thedeatons]

I'm learning a good bit too... does anyone have my gap answers?? I'd like to gap the rotor/pickup tonight.... Thanks!!

[thedeatons]

Hey guys,

I bought some more GN4 Honda oil tonight, and then I used this site's spectacular search engine, and found the gap setting I was looking for. The 185S started up quickly and is running great, idling better than it has in a long time! I do notice that the idle speed seems to flutter up and down, and when it flutters down a bit it seems to sputter just a smidgeon, but then picks back up... Any ideas on that? I am not sure what type of gas is in it, or octane level, or the age of the gas, but I can change that, maybe this weekend.... Any other suggestions for this problem???
I will recheck compression this weekend, if I can get an answer on whether I keep pulling on the recoil until the tester tops out at a certain psi or what?!? I'm just not sure if the gauge will just keep reading higher or will top out at the "correct" reading.
Keep the answers coming!!! THANKS, JAMES

[bigredhead]

There's a check valve on the gauge that lets pressure build with every pull... notice that the pressure does not drop on the exhause stroke !!!!!.. and you press the button to release the pressure before unscrewing it.

I say pull that puppy and get a reading as high as it will go.

[thedeatons]

Okay, I'll try that this weekend... Any ideas on the erratic idle?? I also noticed that it took a little bit, maybe ten seconds to idle back down after revving it up just a little. On a good note, I let it cool off, then pulled once, and it fired right up. NEVER BEFORE HAS IT DONE THAT AND I OWE IT TO THIS FORUM!!! Thanks again guys, only a few hiccups left... James