185 is getting spark!

[83185s]

well you heard :beer ..its getting spark now :naughty: ..i fixed that today :D ..its a bright blue spark. :Bounce ..anyway..it still isnt running...its getting gas and spark and not running..what could be the cause? my dad said low compression or not enough..im thinkin yea right its 12:1 !! and its pretty hard to push start it compared to the regular stock compression piston that was in there..i dont have a pullstarter...anyway..yea gas+spark= not running...whats the cause??..

[short4stuff]

I am thinking timing ...
umm yeha i dunno you can push start the 12:1 ?? .. My x with the stock 9.6:1 piston couldnt be jump started .. the tires would just lock up :S ...

[83185s]

i have spider traks :)) ..what gear u tryin to start it in?? with my friends 200x and his 12:1 it has to be in at least 3rd when cold..2nd when warmed up..well i just put it in the correct timing before i tried it..piston was at tdc cam lobes were down and it was all lined up..i cant figure it out and i gotta work tomarrow so ..ill figure out tuesday after school if i dont work..that 185 is truely a pos..i cant stand it anymore..i used to like workin on it..but now it seems everytime i do i strip a bolt hole or break something else..i need a different machine with a different engine..like a 2 stroker! ive never worked on one so it would probly jump my intrest alot..anyway..yea its just pissin me off..my light cam on also when i was pushing it...lol..it was gettin pretty bright to..5th gear is easiest to do it..1 wont move the tires with the standard 185s piston..2nd has trouble when being pulled by car/truck/atv to move them..tears stuff up..thats how my shifter return spring got broke..anyway it still shifts fine..3rd is ok and gets it revvin high..4th is good and 5th is easiest..but since u have a manual clutch then you should only do it in 3rd if you have to...with someone pushing or being towed..so itll start and you can bring the clutch in...anyway..yea somethin is wrong..i think it doesnt have enough compression but i torqued those bolts as hard as i could since it has the 12:1 o dont want it blowin gaskets..i mean it doesnt even try to start tho..it has spark and gas but doesnt even try...its gotta be timeing...i just fixed my exitor coil...had to re-solder the wiring on..after i did that i electrical tapend over the wire and solder..to help it stay..its gotta be the timing tho

[short4stuff]

alright so you timed the valves .. great .. how did you time the ignition?

[83185s]

t timing mark..i may need to turn the pulser 180..just thought of that..but if i needed to do that it would at least backfire...it always did before when i needed to do it after a rebuild..

[short4stuff]

t timing mark..i may need to turn the pulser 180..just thought of that..but if i needed to do that it would at least backfire...it always did before when i needed to do it after a rebuild..

F mark ... thats the correct way.

[83185s]

u sure?? the manual says t mark

[short4stuff]

well maybe its different than the 200x... but i mean is there a F mark there .. whats F stand for ..? .. fire? .. they wouldnt just put it there for no reason . .. It worked for my x.

[83185s]

hmm..i dunno really..maybe i should but itll only change the timing chain like 1 tooth difference..and it would backfire with it that close off..i dont think it has enough compression but ill prolly try all that stuff tuesday or somethin..or whenever i get around to it..lol..

[short4stuff]

hmm..i dunno really..maybe i should but itll only change the timing chain like 1 tooth difference..and it would backfire with it that close off..i dont think it has enough compression but ill prolly try all that stuff tuesday or somethin..or whenever i get around to it..lol..

what did you do wrong that it wouldnt have compression? .. i mean didnt uou bore it to fit the piston ?.. hone it too ?..

[MTS]

YOU USE THE "T" MARK FOR TIMING the F mark is for setting your igniton,

[3 weelin geezer]

Yeah, try turning the pulser 180 deg. The easiest way I found to put it right is look in the plug hole. if the magnet is at the top when the piston is comeing up and the valves are open, you wont get it to work. The pulser is upside down (especially if you dropped it and it fell apart.) I had a hell of a time until I figgered this out. Use the t mark when its not running. Adjust the timing when you get it to run to get the f mark where its supposed to be. Do you have a manual by the way?

[83185s]

yea i figured that ...its probly just that pulse rotor..no i dont have a manual..i used to borrow one from my friend but when he got rid of his 200e br he gave the guy the clymer with it..he got a dam good deal tho.. a 76 yami 350 2 stroke twin motorcycle..i cant remember what its called but its the same engine as a banshee..i should also mention that its got less than 5k orignal miles and its in mint condition..his br wasnt close to mint..lol

[HaggLE]

83185s, you seem to be confused about timing. There are two different timings, cam timing and ignition timing. Cam timing when the valves open and close during the cycle and the ignition timing is when it fires during the cycle.

Set the cam timing by lining up the "T" mark and lining up the mark up the top (with the lobes down).

To set the ignition timing move to the "F" mark and then line up the pickup with the rotor inside the cover found in the side of the head.

[crackshot]

so what was the problem and what was causing no spark?

[83185s]

well..im thinkin the springs were worn out in the pulse rotor causing it to be able to freeley move or something..i replaced the springs with some others that were stiffer and it got spark..it i can get it spark at the right time then ill be good to go..i hope..i know there are 2 different things on the timing..i wasnt sure what the f mark was for but i knew the t was for the engine timing..now that i know what the f mark is for i can get that pulse rotor set....thanks for tellin me how to do that...i apreciate your guys's help with this...ill tell ya in a few if anything else is wrong

[83185s]

cant get it to even try still..its got spark and gas but not running..i dunno what the prob is..i cant put it in the garage either cause if my dads m-cycle..its a bit to heavy for me to push...78' goldwing gl 1000...yea 800 pound bike so i dont think so..its been under a tarp so no snow or rain has gotten on the trike so far..its really p!$$!n me off tho! i dont see y it wont even try to run..ive even tried starting fluid to see if i just needed i higher octane gas but it aint workin...it dont try with ether and thats wierd...any clues?

[bigredhead]

Uhm... if you changed those springs for stiffer ones, you had to remove the ring plate that sets the timing to get to it, are you sure that plate is in the right place ?

What i'm talking about is that round ring that holds the black part with 2 screws that meet the rotor magnet, you loosen the 2 screws to set the gap between the rotor and ( You did set the gap with a feeler guauge right ? ) then once the gap is set, that ring can retard or advance the timing ..... make sure that ring is in the right palce.

[kando]

Just some ideas to try if you hadn't already, I hate to see some one stuck. Is your plug wet, then you know your getting gas for sure.If it isn't wet put a cap full of gas in spark plug hole and see if it will fire. If still no go I would go all through the timing again. when piston is at top dead centre make sure both no cam lobes are opening the valves..Go one complete revolution, and your exhaust v/v should be opening on way up. then when piston starts to go down intake v/ v should open. So when its half way around the intake should close and let piston come up to full revolution. when its there at the top this is when your fire mark should line up. Take your v/v cover off to see all this. I know you lined everthing up by all these marks, but following instructions can get confusing. I have followed these myself and still screwed up. Something has to be off if it won't fire. Hope this helps, It got to be frustrating you've been at this awhile.

[bigredhead]

NEVER put a cup of gas in your plug hole.. omg.

try a spray bottle with a few squirts max...

EDIT : ooops.. i swear he said a cup......... not a cap... Hahahahaha... sorry.

[kando]

Its says capful not cup full, I should of stated: off of a 4 litre jug, one ounce. Just took for granted he knew what I meant. His plug would definately be wet if he put a cupful in there..........LOL...............If he does put the cup full in and it fires atleast we'll know from the sound that he got it finally.....LOL.......

[bigredhead]

Put put put .. BOOOM

[83185s]

hey thanks..lol..well..i ripped the head off while the engine was on the frame ..not bolted..and was lookin all around to see if everything was seating properly..well..go figure..it wasnt..my valves were opened a little..but a little is enough..so i took the valve cover off and replaced with the 185 so i can set the clearance..well now that thats done they should close..which means compression which means ..fire!! lol...im hoping i fixed it but im not sure..br head...i didnt mess with the screws..what im sayin is the little rotor thing..i took it off then took the little c-rings off and then the little washers..put some other plates and springs on and replace it all..put the rotor back on and then the friction plate and it got spark..thats when it got it..before that it didnt...whats that gap suppose to be set at?? i just get it as close as possible without it touching the rotor..lol..it all seems to work..sometimes i slide a dollar bill into it...is it suppose to be set like the valves?? .003? or .8mm ?? all i gotta do on it now is put the engine mounts back on and try to fire it up but its 9 30 here and i gotta go to bed cause i got school in the morning and i have a bad cold..ive been in the garage..i maneuvered around my dads goldwing to get it in there...the valve caps on the 200x cover were so tight i stripped them with the right size open end rench..i tried socket and ratchet also but nothin..just strippage so i took it off and put the 185 on there...it still has the 200x head on..just the 185 valve cover...it lines up too..so im happy..it should be working..i think the valves not being closed all the way is what i heard when i thouhgt there was an air leak..i knew you meant a cap ful..i was going to use a 20 oz. bottle cap..lol..you guys are gonna **** when you here this..i just realized that all of my paychecks since august have gone into this machine and nothing eles besides about 200 on the 200x which means ive put about 1000 into this 185...and it aint running!!! i got to stop part time fixing this thing and have the shop do it...they will fix it and i can ride for another 20 years..lol...i really dont know y i bother with this 185 any more..but i have to anyway for the engine to get put on the x frame..thanks for your help guys..the ?'s are now.. how big is the gap between the pulse rotor and friction plate? , and

[83185s]

wel..i got it all back together and guess what..nothin happened..i turned the pulse rotor..nothin..now im stuck again..what could have gone wrong?? it had spark now im not sure if it does..it was getting gas and now that i changed the valve cover and adjusted the valves its got a **** load of compression...so im stuck again..plz help this pos

[kando]

Well on the bright side at least you have the timing right now. Make sure you have got a good spark and the firing timing is right.

[83185s]

well see thats the thing..its getting plenty of sparkk at the right time..the timing is right and all and its got so much compression now that i can hardly push it in 5th..it used to be really easy..now the tires lock up from the compression of the engine..also..i dont think its getting gas now...maybe if i switch the engine to the x frame and use that intake and stuff it might run..i dunno?? any ideas now??

[kando]

Just try a capful of gas to see if it fires now that you have got compression and you say timing is right this will prove everything is right. I wouldn't be changing out all your intake stuff just yet. If all this is correct that capful will give you combustion.

[83185s]

ok ok well i tried everything on this..cap full of gas and all..well i got tired of trying things that wouldnt work..not sayin your ideas arent good because i tried all of them..anyway...i rebuild it tonight..io put the stock 200x piston in there..it has a lot of compression still..i think the problem before was too much compression..i talked to a dealer that has had one of these and knows what hes doing ( not saying u guys dont) and he says it may have to much compression..so i rebuilt it like i said..its still got a lot but not as much..as far as i know its still getting spark and gas..i havnt tried turning the rotor 180 yet cuase it was 9 pm when i got it all back together and on the frame..i started at 6pm..anyway..thats what ive tried and its doing the same thing...any ideas?

[kando]

If the firing timing is right why would you turn rotor 180 degrees? Take it to a dealer your going to where the nuts out. Tell them all you tried he probably show you whats wrong for free.

[HaggLE]

Dont give up. This is what learning is all about .

Start from scratch. Check the following:
-Both valves close fully
-Cam timing is correct ("T" mark visible and top sprocket meets the mark)
-Ignition timing is correct ("F" mark visible and pickup line meets rotor line)
-Pickup meets when both valves are closed (check by taking the two caps off and making sure that there is valve/rocker clearance. If not its 180 out)
-pickup gap isnt too big but still not touching
-It has compression
-Decompression mechanism isnt staying on (if you have one)
-Jets arent blocked in carb
-float level is correct
-Intake tract is fully sealed between the carb and head (very critical)
-Air filter isnt blocked or too restrictive
-try another plug (preferably a new one)

Starting tips:
-Hold the throttle just over idle
-try with the choke and without

Thats all i can think of for now, let us know how you go and if anyone else has some fundemental checks that i have missed the please add them.

[short4stuff]

what about if you have you gear 180 off on your cam ... so there fore the valves would be opening at the wrong time ... exactley 180 off...

[bigredhead]

Hey man !

Sometimes the simplest solution prevails.

Have you tried new GAS.

and double checked your fuel lines for proper routing, overvlows and fuel lines not mixed up !!!!

[3 weelin geezer]

Is your email address current? I sent you some pics of the manual but I get a delivery failure.

[83185s]

ok guys i gotta say..thos are all great ideas but i did something last night u should all know about..i blew it up!! literaly with gas a nd the 12 gauge!! lol jk..but i did put the stock 200x piston in there instead of the 12:1 ..i think it had to much compression..welll now i got it to where it tries but wont go..its firing and all..shot a flame out the pipe about 1 1/2 feet! lol..it about caught my bro on fire when we were tryin to push start it..hehe..i laughed so hard and about fell over ..lol..anyway..it tries but wont go..i found a little rtv red on the inside of my intake that had gotten there when i out it on..i took it all out and fixed that prob..now i know its getting gas and the plug was wet as well..i tried turning the cam 180, pulse rotor 180..everything..the most its doing is backfiring and tring but not going....valves are set right, timing is now set right, pulser is set right, getting spark getting gas, getting good compression as it still locks up the back tires ocasionally..anyway..its all good but it wont go..it tries but wont..now any ideas??? 3 wheelin geezer yes my email is current i beleive..if you sent it to jtetidrick2007@yahoo.com or f_balla_69@msn.com

[kando]

timing is out, your igniting your gases as they leave out the exhaust valve that is why you shoot flames at your brother....LOL...Get firing 180 degrees sooner. If you can get ahold of manual, it might save alot of effort. A pull rope would also come in handy. Good luck your almost there.

[HaggLE]

The little pin that goes in the cam that the spring thingo locates on, that is where the CDI rotor should be pointing. If you have another cam you will notice that this hole is on the side that is opposite the cam lobes. Change it so that it is right.

This definately sounds like your problem.

[83185s]

yea the little pin on the cam points north west..(up and a little left)...when the lobes are down...the timing is just right tho..i cant figure out why its doing this..are the valves not opening enough?? or is the timing like maybe 1 tooth off?? woould that make a big enough difference?

[83185s]

o yea i also moved the needle clip to the top position cause i figured it was getting too much gas..it was backfiring withno gas on and when i barely hit the gas it would stop..so i moved it up and it wouldnt do anything till i hit the gas a little..so i moved it back to the second clip from the clip..(on the carb slide)

[83185s]

ok i think 2 morrow im just going to put the 185 head and valve cover on with the 200x piston and see what happens..it seems like it wants to go but its not..so maybe if it does go i will put the 12:1 back on..if that works im keepin it liek that..im thinkin maybe the valves arent opening enough or are opening too much because its the 185 camshaft with a 200x head..i dont have a 200x with that little pin..the one i got had that little pin ripped out..im thinkin about putting a new one in and using it but i dunon..there less than 5 bucks so..i prolly will

[HaggLE]

Check the cam timing first. You arent 100% sure that its right then check it because more then likely if you think it isntn it isnt. The "T" mark and the groove lining up with the mark on the sprocket. They wont line up exact be as close as possible is as good as it gets. After this redo the ignition timing without turning over the motor (except the 30 degree turn backwards to get to the "F" mark). This will ensure that the engine is in the right spot for setting the ignition timing.

I am fairly sure this is your problem.

[83185s]

well..i tried all that today..i even put the 185 head on there..it tries a bit more but still wont go..im not even sure what to do now..im thinkin about gettin a new engine off ebay..that thing is really just p!$$!n me off and im tired of it..im not giving up its just almost hopeless..mnaybe the engine has had it? i dunno but it seems like every time i tighten down a bolt it strips out or the hole does..mostly the holes since the engine is cast aluminum and it sucks..any way..i have no more ideas except a new engine or different piston that has less compression...what about u?? i did all that today haggle

[short4stuff]

.. I dont know why you think its two much compression because its not. Other people use the 12:1 it runs. They sell the 12:1 it must be made to work... I think mayube you need some professional help to get it to run..

I am not trying to be an ass, but thatas what I think.

[83185s]

well..i just dont know what it could be...ive tried everything on it...i just cant get it to work...im buying another engine from ebay or something..im tring to find a cheap junker or somethin for parts if i can but if i cant im goin ebaying...if i can find a 200x complete bottom end its mine! lol..if i get one i can put that 12:1 in there and fix the head at school...a couple holes stripped out...and then ill be set..also im trying to find an xr 200 cam...or maybe ill go get a web-cam for it..i dunno..plenty of ideas but not the richest person on earth so it will take awhile..also im bout to quit my job at kfc..i cant stand the people there now and the managers...im goin to a pizza place...lol

[bigredhead]

You need to find a running engine and then leave it alone, then you get to ride !

[3 weelin geezer]

12:1 isnt too much. if it was, you would be getting detonation I believe. Anyways, put it aside and sleep on it for a while. You may just dream the solution. I did when I put my engine back in my car. I fell asleep on the bus to california and clearly saw what I had done wrong and why the engine wouldnt crank even though the lights all lit up. It was the negative cable that goes attached to the engine that I failed to attach. Yup, saw it as clearly as if I was still looking under the hood and woke up. I couldn't believe it but that was exactly the problem. How much compression are you getting in psi anyways? How many ft/lb are you torquing the bolts? I tried to send the pix of the manual to f_balla_69. but it just bounced back. The solution is very simple. Check every thing again starting from the top. I bet you missed something. How about the key in the crankshaft? Was that damaged/ sheared off affecting timing? I'm still thinking its timing because you say you have gas in the cyl., compression (how did you orient the gaps in the rings when you put the piston in?) Did you put the right ring in the right spot? Um..the cam sprocket/rotor can only go one way to work right. The carb is supplying gas and you have a fat spark.

[83185s]

yea i got trailprotrailpro emails...the key on the crankshaft is a good solution tho...i may go check that out here in a bit..the only way it tries is how it is right now..it will not try if the rotor or cam is 180 off..thanks ..you may have found my problem...but i have 1 more ?...would it affect it alot if the pulse rotor back plate is not staying on because the holes are stripped?...it stays tere because the pulse rotor bolt that holds it in but other than that it wiggles around..(the hole cdi assembly)...but it stays with the friction plate and all...i jsut cant figure it out..i havnt worked on it for a few days cause im tired of it but i may go check that flywheel and stuff

[3 weelin geezer]

Yes, it would affect timing if it moves around wich I think it would if the rotor hits it when the magnet pulls the coil in.

[83185s]

so could that be whats causing it?? i need to take the head into my shop class to fix it because i dont have a tap or die set...i forgot which is which so yea..lol..i havnt messed with it for awhile yet..i will 2 morrow..fill up the 5 gallon bucket and get the rust outa my x tank then go to work on the 185 i guess..while the tank sits in the muratic acid and water..wild guess here but that stuff will wat the spray paint right?? reason is because it looks like crap since i accidentaly spilled gas on it...lol..i want it to come off and i dont want to take the time again with the wire brush and sand paper...i dunno how it came off when i used 2 coats of primer and 3 of white but it did so now it looks like crap but itll change soon...anyway...back to tyhe subject..i bet that would be causeing it but i have no way to keep it in that spot yet..till i fix the head so itll be awhile..but something popped up so i may get it..25 bucks for a 200m...they said it ran before winter and they couldnt get it started in winter to ride so they left it in the garage and they put some new parts on but they cant get it runnin so i told him id get it..25 bucks for a complete trike..prolly justs needs a new plug and carb cleaning!! lol..and i can do that stuff!!

[HaggLE]

To avoid stripping out thread holes, dont tighten the bolts so tight, aluminium is easy to tear the thread out of.

The next thing to do is to blow all the holes out with compressed air and use the longest bolts you can without reaching the end. This gives the bolt more area to grab onto and less likely to tear the thread out. Sometimes a longer bolt will help you work around a stuffed thread hole because its only stuffed near the start but if you have the rest of the hole in use then it will do up tight.

Alot of people go and change from the standard bolts to using different aftermarket ones but they arent always long enough. Experiment with some different lengths and see what the longest you can get away with is.

[83185s]

its too late not to strip them...they already are..i can push them in with my hand and pull them out too..lol..it stays there tho..they dont rattle out somehow..im not to worried about it since im getting a 200m saturday...i will work on the 185 when i have time and when i get it stripped down im going to take the head and any other parts that need fixed into my shop class and rethread them..itll be ok..lol..it will get done..it will remain under a tarp since there is no room in the garage right now..and ill fix it when i can get to it..work and school are gettin in my way of what i need to do...anyway..itll run soon enough

[DeePa]

fill the holes with epoxy, drill a hole slightly smaller than the screw/bolt, then thread it in with some force...bootleg helicoil

[83185s]

thats a good temproary fix but will the epoxy hold up to the engine heat??

[3 weelin geezer]

lets see if I get these pictures right this time. The first is where I start getting compression of around 140-150 psi. The second is the 'f timing mark when the rotor is just about to cross the pickup coil. Why would you want a temp fix? Helicoil the holes and make that helicoil kit pay for itself. I had to redo the plug hole on mine and the $30 sure sucks for one hole. Felt like my money went right in there along with the spark plug.


http://home.elp.rr.com/pi8tures/compression%20begins%20.JPG
http://home.elp.rr.com/pi8tures/timing%20mark%20'F'.JPG
http://home.elp.rr.com/pi8tures/rotor%20position.JPG

[83185s]

sweet deal..id prolly work on it but its midnight now and i gotta get that 3 wheelr 2 morrow morning..and ill be fixing it to run first before the 185 since its causing me a bunch of problems...you can beat 25 bucks on a simple fix complete 200m...