bad day for my 200x!

[vartiak15]

ok we went riding on my pond and then on the trails then we were going to go to a friends house taht lived about 15min away. well as soon as we got on the road i was in about 4th gear and giving it alot of gas then all of a sudden it died. so i pulled in clutch and then let off so it started again. )like being pull started i guess) and then i went to give it gas it died and a big puff of whitish blue smoke came out. and i cant get it started. and there isnt alot of compression. did i blow a ring? or is it somthing with my valves. the motor doesnt even have 2hrs. on it scince rebuild. its a 12.1 piston and im not getting alot of comresssion. im going to pull the motor tomarrow after i fix my sled. and tear it apart this weekend. i hope it is just a ring on the piston. i replaced alot of stuff but cam, valves. and valve springs. i also didnt adjust my valves because it runs fine. well, did. some one help me out here.

[smokinp]

are you running high octane fuel?

[83185s]

sounded like a ring to me

[TimSr]

sounded like a ring to me

Could you please explain how you were able to arrive at that conclusion from the information given? Im always interested in learning something new.

[vartiak15]

well bad compression has to be the valves or the rings right tim? and im not running high octane gas.

[83185s]

i came to the conclusion because u lost a lot of compression and u said it suddenly blew out a bunch of whitish blue smoke came out..blue = oil and white also = oil or to much air.. which means u blew a ring and the air was being sucked into the head from the bottom end...i think...im not the smartest one here but that sounds more logical than anything else if u hadnt broke in the motor yet

[TimSr]

well bad compression has to be the valves or the rings right tim? and im not running high octane gas.

Yes, or a seizure or hole in the piston, but there is no way anybody can tell you without opening it up and inspecting it. Ive never heard of a ring "blowing". When they break is normally from another problem, and they usually do lots of damage, but more often they get stuck compressed in the piston grooves from a meltdown or seizure.

[TimSr]

i came to the conclusion because u lost a lot of compression and u said it suddenly blew out a bunch of whitish blue smoke came out..blue = oil and white also = oil or to much air.. which means u blew a ring and the air was being sucked into the head from the bottom end...i think...im not the smartest one here but that sounds more logical than anything else if u hadnt broke in the motor yet

What is it that makes you believe it that its not a valve?

[vartiak15]

what would be wrong with the valve? sticking or what? ill take it apart this weekend.

[bigredhead]

With any luck nothing got in the tranny..... for your sake i hope so !!!

[kilabeez0]

12:1 piston and not your not running high octane?????????? did u really build that and then run 87 gas thru that thing??????????????

[vartiak15]

lol. thats what i say but my dad says it will run fine just not at its top potential(sp). so it will work and run but not as fast as possible. ive got some octane boost. mabye ill throw a lil of that in it i ever get it running. that didnt cause the problem tho. well i dont see how it could.

[Dammit!]

http://www.3wheelerworldforums.com/showthread.php?p=184889#post184889

[83185s]

i dunno tim sr. i just kinda did..im not the smartest one alive and i dont always know what im talking about but thats just what i believe it is..(not trying to be a smart ass)

[bigredhead]

have you removed your spark plug to inspect how it was running ? rich lean .....

[BigGreenMachine]

Higher compression adds more heat and burns more fuel than stock meaning you would need to rejet and add higher octane fuel. Sounds like you melted your rings. I melted a set of rings the other week the same way as you basicly, luckily I have a complete topend with cylinder/head and piston and rings so all I need to run now is to rejet.

[vartiak15]

so i could melt some brand new weisco(sp) rings, by not running race gas? wow man i never even thought of that. well will this do any damage to my cylinder? and from now on ill put in the octane boost. i got this piston and when i order it from dennis kirk it said standard so i thought it was like a stock one. well comes out it was a 12.1 compression one. i did not buy a monster compression piston on purpose. well ill let your guys no tommarrow if i get the time to get it apart. (got to clean up my bros sled project so i can have my bench back lol.) wish me luck. and Dammit i read your post and to let your no i did the same thing when i got it i tore it apart to find out that the crank bearings were shot(replaced them) i inspected the wiring harness and then retaped it and put some fancy wire protector on it. and replaced bearings and everyhting. i take good care of my trike. always clean it. i dont no if im running the right jet. im not good on that kinda stuff. ive got a 110 main. do i need to change the pilot and should i go with a bigger main? it ran good, ill check the plug(just put a new one in a lil bit ago). i think it might be a lil ritch if i remember from the old plug.

[BigGreenMachine]

I ruined the wall of my cylinder but its nothing a 1st over bore would't take care of, glad I went the sleeve route instead of the Nikisal plating. I'm not perfect on jetting either, if I was I would not have melted the rings like I did. By running the clamp on filter and 12:1 piston you will need to rejet to allow more fuel to enter the cylinder thoughout the throttle range as well you will need to run high octane fuel (race gas).

[samster143]

From what I know that octane boost stuff only takes the octane up a few points like from 93 to 93.5 or something like that. You need like 110 octane...minimum.. for 12:1. that costs like $5.0 per gallon.

[samster143]

You must also adjust the valves after having the motor apart.... From what I know.

[HaggLE]

100 octane is plenty for 12:1 As long as it isnt pinking...

[TimSr]

i dunno tim sr. i just kinda did..im not the smartest one alive and i dont always know what im talking about but thats just what i believe it is..(not trying to be a smart ass)

Well, the problem here is that not everyone may know that you are shooting from the hip with wild guesses, and if someone assumed that your advice was good based on the amount of it that you hand out, they might actually follow it, and it could cost them lots and lost of money. What if this guy would have run out and bought new rings because he thought you sounded like you knew with certainty that this was his problem? Wild guesses are great for game shows, but they can be very damaging to your fellow trikers. Please limit your technical adivce to topics with which you have some personal experience, or preface them with the words, "I have no clue and am taking a wild guess..." so that poeple who dont know you, willo know that the advice you are about to give should not be relied upon.

[diggerzmound]

JEEEZZZ we got some opinions here. Unfortunately Opinions don't repair crap but maybe your ego, when you guess right. Lack of lubrication and wear are the worst enemies of our friends the rings.. If yours melted you forgot to mix your 2 cycle oil or are running too little ring gap, or wayy to lean. Hi compression and low octane fuel cause detonation or pinGing.. Detonation is hard on the piston and valves in a 4 cycle.. Detonation will surely destroy a piston before it will do anything but maybe break the rings. usually on a 2 cycle detonation kills the piston either directly beneath the sparkplug out right near the exhaust port. You do not necessarily need to run race gas unless you are experiencing pinging after proper jetting.. Race gas burns slower so it will hinder performance if it is not needed. (here goes the octane arguement, don't waste your time, I KNOW)

You people resonding to this guys question should really hold your tongues, unless you have experience what he is talking about or are sure you know what you are talking about. You quickness to supply an opinion really discredits this website..

As for valves, why would it blow smoke if a vavle was stuck????

The best advice is, you are gonna have to pull the top end, cause something is definately wrong with the rings/piston. Do a compression check, if its below 90, the top end must be pulled......

I am not trying to piss anyone off, just trying to help this very active and could be helpful forum....

[HaggLE]

Dude its been lunched. Pull it down and you will find lots of little pieces of aluminium.

[83185s]

well i was right tho tim..he did melt the rings..yes i said blow the rings but to different people it means different things...and i did know somewhat about what i was talking about

[TimSr]

How do you know your guess was right if he hasnt taken it apart yet? If he melted his rings, I will eat them. Please explain just exactly what "blow a ring" does mean?

[83185s]

alright tim he said he melted the rings already thats how i know..and im not even going to go into it cause i cant stand arguing anymore..i get enough at home i dont need it on a site that i go on to for information and helping other people..jeez drop it plz

[HaggLE]

Tim
I agree with your post regarding just guessing solutions they can sometimes lead to alot of time and money wasting.

But on the other hand, you mentioned him going out and buying rings when that isnt the problem, I think some good advice to take is dont buy anything without physically seeing that you need it. Going out and buying rings for your motor because some dude on the internet said that you needed them is not very wise. Checking the rings to help solve your problem well yeah that doesnt hurt.
If you wrote those comments about me (which i first thought you did till i read further because I posted before your message) I would be a little upset. Perhaps you over-reacted to the situation a little.

I too have felt like you about posts that are blaintlently annoying and not relevant or necessary but have resulted in my posts being retracted from rule breaking, so being a forum admin you should think whether the post is required before posting it. (Or retract his posts if necessary)

Not trying to get up your nose I value your opinions, just trying to help keep the peace.

I sincerely hope that nothing major is wrong with your motor vartiak15 but in my opinion you may have done some major damage.

[TimSr]

Tim
I agree with your post regarding just guessing solutions they can sometimes lead to alot of time and money wasting.

But on the other hand, you mentioned him going out and buying rings when that isnt the problem, I think some good advice to take is dont buy anything without physically seeing that you need it. Going out and buying rings for your motor because some dude on the internet said that you needed them is not very wise. Checking the rings to help solve your problem well yeah that doesnt hurt.
If you wrote those comments about me (which i first thought you did till i read further because I posted before your message) I would be a little upset. Perhaps you over-reacted to the situation a little.

I too have felt like you about posts that are blaintlently annoying and not relevant or necessary but have resulted in my posts being retracted from rule breaking, so being a forum admin you should think whether the post is required before posting it. (Or retract his posts if necessary)

Not trying to get up your nose I value your opinions, just trying to help keep the peace.

I sincerely hope that nothing major is wrong with your motor vartiak15 but in my opinion you may have done some major damage.

Haggle - Nothing I said was directed towards you or your responses. In my first response I stated that no one could tell him his problem without taking it apart and looking at it. I think we are in total agreement there.

What Im tired of is a handful of guys who chime in with some wild guess on every post for tech help that they see, even if its a machine theyve never seen in their life, in hopes that they might get a guess right once in a while, and everyone will think they are brilliant. Its one thing to be wrong. Its another to habitulally and fequently throw out information that you know you have no personal knowledge of without regards to the consequences suffered by those who follow this advice because they arent familiar with certain people's habits of doing this. I dont jump on anybody for it unless they make a habit out if it.

Again, Haggle, none of this was directed to you, and none of it was critical of the help you try to offer those seeking it.

[kilabeez0]

Haggle - Nothing I said was directed towards you or your responses. In my first response I stated that no one could tell him his problem without taking it apart and looking at it. I think we are in total agreement there.

What Im tired of is a handful of guys who chime in with some wild guess on every post for tech help that they see, even if its a machine theyve never seen in their life, in hopes that they might get a guess right once in a while, and everyone will think they are brilliant. Its one thing to be wrong. Its another to habitulally and fequently throw out information that you know you have no personal knowledge of without regards to the consequences suffered by those who follow this advice because they arent familiar with certain people's habits of doing this. I dont jump on anybody for it unless they make a habit out if it.

Again, Haggle, none of this was directed to you, and none of it was critical of the help you try to offer those seeking it.


I think throwing ideas out is a great thing to do. I sometimes make a list of the "wild guesses" when tracking down a problem. relax :TrikesOwn :beer

[bonkers_200s]

I think throwing ideas out is a great thing to do. I sometimes make a list of the "wild guesses" when tracking down a problem. relax :TrikesOwn :beer

I agree.
I've a turned a wrench 3 or 4 times

Trouble shooting is harder than fixing something by all means. Sometimes a few differant ideas/opinions need be heard/read.


This entire debauchery of ego's needs too be deleted ASAP, maybe he didn't have to post "sounds like rings too me", and just maybe people didn't have too offence to it, he didn't piss in anybodys cornflakes and didn't trash talk anyones momma. Biuld a bridge, and get over it. This thread makes this place look like hell.


**Awaits his punishment for voicing opinion**

[kilabeez0]

^^^best response ever!

I thought u were mocking me the first time I read the first line though!

[vartiak15]

well if you said anythign about a gasket your right. check out the pics. anyone got a jug for sale?

[vartiak15]

o and what brand makes the best gaskets? it is stock bore. should i get a honda one? it had a moose in it.

[bonkers_200s]

^^^best response ever!

I thought u were mocking me the first time I read the first line though!


Not mocking you at all, I've been turning wrenches since I was damn near born, my Grandfather would hand me $20, 5 qts of oil, a filter, and the keys when I was 6 and tell me "get at that Dodge bwoy", while he ate his breakfast. If people would have confidence in thier children like that, there would be no need for million dollar schools, time is the best teacher, unfortunatly, it kills all of its students. :p

You didn't notice the HTML sarcasm tags??? :p

I've noticed and quickly learned, pretty much every where, but this board definatly, not too say that you are mechanicly inclined, people take offence too it, then try to start a battle of knowledge, which in my opinion just shows stupidity, and causes things like this.

[short4stuff]

so now how did that happen to your gasket? .. Installed incorrectly? .... ?..

[TimSr]

anyone got a jug for sale?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4521829121&category=43977

This one is mine.

[kilabeez0]

that's what just happened to my gasket. how come that happens? and what is with the hole in the dowl pin??? also why do you need a new jug if you just blew a head gasket? or am i missing something?

[84honda 200X]

It does that because you didnt have the head torqued correctly or your head is warped. Causeing the exhaust to escape through the opening.

[vartiak15]

i just put it together with a new gasket and i rotated teh dowl pin.

[BigGreenMachine]

Also the 12:1 piston may have helped blow it out if it was a crap gasket and you didnt retorque. I don't like the quality of Moose gaskets anyhow. So you have it rebuilt and running now? If so I hope you retorqued the head and jug after the first time it cooled or you will have the same prob.

[HaggLE]

I would be having the head skimmed to ensure that its flat (even the top of the cylinder to be safe), buying a new dowel (and genuine gasket) and also making sure that the dowel is going all the way into the head properly. Maybe the dowel was holding a gap there. Definately make sure that you have the head torqued correctly. Premium fuel would also be recommended with a piston shaped like that.

One more thing, learn how to use macro mode on your camera. It fixes the blurs at close range.

[Bill X_R]

I just rebuilt an engine that I messed up the head gasket by having it flipped the wrong way. I can't tell exactly what your gasket looks like from the blury picture, but it looks alot like the one I messed up. After looking at what the problem was the gasket was just a little off-center, if it was flipped the wrong way. It was pretty hard to tell if you were not paying attention. Might have been your problem?

[vartiak15]

ya it runs why do i need to retourque them? i will soon.

[kilabeez0]

my torque wrench is busted, i just cranked mine down in the criss cross pattern!

[83185s]

so besides the gasket was there any other problems with it that you can tell?? that thing is gonna have alot more comp when u get that head and cylinder shaved

[vartiak15]

im not getting it shaved. were did i say that?

[BigGreenMachine]

You need to retorque the bolt because after the cylinder heats up everything expands and then cools when you stop riding so the bolts need to be retorqued to solve this. Make sure it is done after your first time riding and when the bike has completely cooled.

[kilabeez0]

so u mean they loosen up? didn't know that. i dont have a torque wrench but i'll tighten them up in the proper order. i just finished putting mine back together after having the same problem as u vartiak. took a WHILE to get it to kick over and start. I guess it must have killer compression. ran it for a good 15 minutes, i'll see how loose the head bolts are tomorrow.

[vartiak15]

make sure u got timming right. i think mine might be a lil off.

[MTS]

dont be cheap on gas buy the good stuff, my friend just ceased up his 200m with the 12:1 wiseco in it becuse he ran 87 octane in it, when that sucker siezed it was so hot you could cook a steak on it!