If your 185/200 auto clutch is slipping, this thread's for you.

[Studytime]

Okay, my clutch is slipping and I'm not being able to transfer all of my bike's power to the ground.

So far, I've tried to adjust the slack (necessary as clutch shoes wear) and that hasn't helped much.

Well, today I bought four Barnett clutch discs for my 200s. While I was at Winner's Cycle in BTR I talked to one of the salespersons there. I learned that the shoes are probably slipping and that this is a common problem. Once the shoes start to slip then, the discs will glaze over requiring all parts to be replaced. Well, she tried to sell me Honda clutch shoes for $60 a piece (remember we need three). I passed on the shoes, but did learn some. She also said that if the shoes are slipping that there is a good chance they have damaged the drum that they grab. She advised me to take the shoes out and inspect the drum. It is supposed to be completely smooth and not have any ridges in it. If it has ridges it will need to be replaced to the tune of $140-ish from Honda with a 2-week wait. If it looks like there are any grooves machined into the inside of your drum than it's off to see Honda.

So, I have my new clutch discs in hand and tomorrow/soon I plan to dive into the side of my case and she what it looks like.

If you have any information to add to this thread that is of substance and may help people in the future, please add it. I'll be adding my findings and impressions of the Barnett clutches. Also, I recently started another thread about my xr200 cam install, I'll finish that one after I get the new clutch sorted out.

Lastly, if you know of a sourch for the clutch drum (the area the clutch shoes rub on) please advise. Parts Unlimited offers a 3-set of clutch shoes for $50 and they are supposed to be an OEM equivalent part.

Studytime

[RideRed250R]

i doubt its the shoes, the first place for it to slip is the discs not the shoes and to spin the shoes takes alot of power and a 200s sings to the tune of like 10 horses? i say discs or springs
adam

[Studytime]

That's good news to hear. The lady at the parts counter pays her bills selling parts so it's good to hear opinions from the other side.

You guys wouldn't believe how thin a layer of friction material is on those clutch shoes. The service manual gives the thickness that your shoes should spec to so they can be check by this method.

I'd also like to know more about the springs getting weak with time and what this will allow to happen.

Thanks thus far,
Studytime

[atczack]

This is from Dennis Kirk: Part's Unlimited Centrifugal Clutch Shoes for Honda
Fit's: 80-86 Honda ATC 185/200
Price: $52.95
Part # 38-904
Page# 416
Phone# 1-800-328-9280

Also, everytime I replace the clutch plate's/disc's I put heavy duty spring's in there. I can't really tell the difference between stock and H/D, but here's the info on that: Part's Unlimited Vesrah H/D clutch spring's
For: 84-86 Honda 200s
Price: $8.99
Part # 38-813
Page: 414

Hope this help's some. They didn't have the spring that goes with the shoe's.

[83185s]

hmm i may have to check out mine..its not gettin up as fast as it used to and i dont think the clutch has ever been tinkered with so i may have to check that..thanks for the info

[Dave223]

hey studytime,
take your time and learn how to change those clutches, mine are about due for a change and your in drivin distance!! :p :p Mine is startin to slip some and I want to go down to a 9 tooth front sprocket so I know it wont last long.....Im just undecided whether to tear into it and restore it or go to the Spillway one more time????

Off topic, Im building a shed for someone and across the fence is a 185s sittin in the weeds...I want it BAD

[Blown 331]

I used to work at a machine/ weld shop and I welded up the grooves in my drum and machined it back smooth, works great.

[Studytime]

Hmm... very interesting. What machine did you smooth it back out on? If mine is grooved I may opt to do this. Did you TIG that or MIG it?

Studytime

[Blown 331]

Mig welder. then chucked it up in a lathe. I measured the diameter before I started and when I turned it back down I made the inside drum diameter .010 smaller than what it measured before I started. Don't ask my why I did that, I figure there had to be some wear so I just guessed it. Works great though. When I worked there I didn't do much machine work so I got a little help squaring the drum up in the lathe.

[wheelie king]

All of this is GREAT info. About 2 weeks ago, I noticed that under a full throttle accelleration, not backing off the gas, imy 185 slips a little in between gears.

Question: (as stated above)- it is more likely to be the discs, not the shoes, right? Mine is all still stock and never been adjusted, so could that be the culprit? Keep in mind this atc was bought new and sat for 20 years.
Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Studytime]

Mig welder. then chucked it up in a lathe. I measured the diameter before I started and when I turned it back down I made the inside drum diameter .010 smaller than what it measured before I started. Don't ask my why I did that, I figure there had to be some wear so I just guessed it. Works great though. When I worked there I didn't do much machine work so I got a little help squaring the drum up in the lathe.

I'm not visualizing how to secure it in the lathe, but if it's been done once hopefully it can be done again. Thanks for the information. The new drum costs upwards of $120. Even for people who have to pay for an hour of machine work at a shop this might be a cheaper alternative.

Studytime

[Blown 331]

It's kind hard to describe the lathe jaw we used, like I said I haven't done much maching work- I'm sure it has a name. But anyway we clamped it between the drum itself and the gear. The jaws cleared the larger gear on back and clamped on the flat surface. I figure you have a better chance of keeping everything square that way than if you clamp right to the outside of the drum. If you could somehow secure the drum from the inside where the shaft goes through that would be best. My way worked just fine though. I did 2 of them, I have a welded up spare floating around at my dads somewhere.

[Studytime]

First things first, I have some other cares to attend to, but the latest information I have gathered is as follows.

The centrifugal clutch shoes are what get you rolling. They are responsible for your initial acceleration.

The clutch discs take over once you are rolling and they are responsible for securing the connecting between the crank and drive sprocket once you are already moving and, of course, responsible for top end.

Low speed/RPM slip- clutch shoes
High speed/RPM slip- friction plates

I'm learning more as I go. Thanks for the information provided by you fellow board members.

Studytime

[Blown 331]

First things first, I have some other cares to attend to, but the latest information I have gathered is as follows.

The centrifugal clutch shoes are what get you rolling. They are responsible for your initial acceleration.

The clutch discs take over once you are rolling and they are responsible for securing the connecting between the crank and drive sprocket once you are already moving and, of course, responsible for top end.

Low speed/RPM slip- clutch shoes
High speed/RPM slip- friction plates

I'm learning more as I go. Thanks for the information provided by you fellow board members.

Studytime

So you're saying when you have a clutch slipping in 5th gear those are the clutch plates not the shoes? I just assumed it would be the centrifugal clutch but you could be right, never though about that. Where did you come up with that?

[83185s]

does anyone elses in here kinda keep reved goin up a small incline when u shift from 3rd to 4th and 4th to 5th? mine stays reved a little..well how it was before i shifted and then about 1 second if that it goes into gear (it feels like) and goes again till i shift again and it does the same..nothin wrong with downshifting tho

[BIGCRIP28]

Definitely dont buy those Honda centrifugal shoes.
We put in about 3 or 4 sets of those parts unlimited ones and they work great.
Only bad thing about them is that we had to file/grind them down to get them to slip in the hub. When they are fresh and tight they pull while idiling in gear but after a few rides they loosen up.

[Studytime]

So you're saying when you have a clutch slipping in 5th gear those are the clutch plates not the shoes? I just assumed it would be the centrifugal clutch but you could be right, never though about that. Where did you come up with that?


I came up with that from a guy that seems to know what he was talking about that worked behind our local parts counter. If you read the post right before this one, it says how the new parts unlimited were pulling his ATC at idle. This would agree with my latest findings- the clutch shoes are for low-speed operation.

Studytime

[greenhuman]

Its always the drum/shoes that causes the slip, top and bottom. When the shoes and drum wear out there is not enough pressure put on the drum to stop the slipping effect. The disc clutch is mainly there to help with gear changes. That is why there is one less friction plate and steel plate in that clutch compared to a normal XL185 and 200x manual clutch. The drum and shoes takes most of the load.

[TimSr]

The clutch plates on an autoclutch work exactly the same way as a manual clutch, but they are tied to the shift lever instead of a hand lever. If you lift the shifter and hold it up, its the same as pulling a clutch lever. They are always engaged, and only disengage for a moment when you shift. For this reason they tend to last forever, because unlike a manual clutch, you dont slip it every time you take off, and you dont slip it while riding as you would a manual clutch. Contrary to popular belief, what wears a clutch out most quickly is frequent slipping as part of your driving practices, which doesnt happen on an autoclutch. Yes, you can slip it with the shifter, but its not common practice, though it is the correct method for doing a holeshot on an autoclutch. Heavy duty springs on these wont do much since they arent slipped anyways.

The centrifugal clutch is a separate unit, and as the name implies, requires centrifugal force to make the shoes spin outward and engage the drum. Centrifugal force is controlled by RPMs. Every time you give it gas, it spins faster and the shoes engage, and every time you let off the throttle, they disengage which is what keeps you from stalling, no matter what gear. These take the brunt of wear because they engage and disengage every time you hit and let off the throttle. If they pull when you idle, it means your idle RPM is too high. In the case of aftermarket, it could mean the pads are thicker, beyond Honda's normal tolerance. This is not really a problem though, beacuse its a lot easier to take pad off than to add it. If ist due to pad thickness, it should quit after several miutes of riding.

Slippage on these, if not due to wear, is usually from inadequate RPMs, meaning you are operating in too high of a gear, or you have geared up for freeway riding to obtain that almighty "top speed" but your motor no longer turns enough RPMs in low gear to make it fully engage and take off. Its a big from for an autoclutch to gear too high for the power your motor can deliver. A mechanical cuase can be when or if the springs on the clutch shoes get weak. This will cause them to engage prematurely at lower RPMs where they tend to slip rather than grab. The stiffer that spring the higher the RPMs before the shoes will engage, but when they do, it will be a crisp grab. Its common practice to use heavier springs on these shoes on two strokes with hi rev pipes so that they will take off in the powerband. You lose performance if you go too high on a 4 stroke and opeate above the power band.

[ric]

A few years back I had the same problem with my 200E, Being the cheap sort of guy I am, I found a budget fix for this. As luck would have it I was working in a Brake Rebonding shop, I brought the 3 clutch shoes in and got the workshop guy to bond on some industrial woven lining that is suitable for running in oil, the material was too thick but I just thinned it out on the linishing machine.
As for the grooves in the drum, I just left them there, since I had the shoes bonded with no grooves in them, and the drum did have grooves in it, ended up with the same result. worked fine for me for a couple of years until I sold it, its probably still running.!!

[jakerush]

Hey Studytime,

Thanks for the info. I'm here in Baton Rouge with a '85 200s that is having some clutch trouble. I ran by T-Raxx out on 61 the other day and she quoted me $45 for the 3 shoes together if I'm not mistaken. She didn't have a drum though. I just haven't pulled the trigger yet on buying them. Also, www.hyperparts.com or crosstec.com seems to have good prices on clutch parts. I'm definitely having low end problems with mine. My wheeler's just not up real high on the priority list right now.

Jake

[crackshot]

so is it the shoes or disks that fail usually?

[LaDano]

The shoes wear faster and give the most trouble.

[IrvSLedman]

you dont really need a compression gauge, just take the plugs out, and put ** fingure over the hole, pull it over, and if * get good compression, it should push ** fingure off, or atleast move it around, also the cylinders could be all scored up which would just totally mess it up, happened to my friends old 1970 artic cat, we had to buy a new 760 engine.. but. you could re-hone it if the marks in teh cylinder arnt too bad.

[crackshot]

you dont really need a compression gauge, just take the plugs out, and put ** fingure over the hole, pull it over, and if * get good compression, it should push ** fingure off, or atleast move it around, also the cylinders could be all scored up which would just totally mess it up, happened to my friends old 1970 artic cat, we had to buy a new 760 engine.. but. you could re-hone it if the marks in teh cylinder arnt too bad.



What the heck you talkin' about?