Winter Project.. The Super Trike

[Quickonstep]

Welp, i think im going to get a winter project going... I have a bunch of engines laying around.. but i think i have decided on an engine to go ahead and use for a seriously ballsy trike... a 89 kawasaki js550 engine... 70 hp @ the crank.. I do know that im going to need a long swing arm.. prolly somthing obnoxious like +15 inches or more...

Any idea's on a decent frame to start with? I was thinkin of a R or a tecate frame?... I will use a water pump driven off of the crank, as for an exhuast, that might be a little tricky... its gonna be a totally 1 off deal... the whole bike (other than the frame/forks.. stuff like that..

Engine info as of right now.

Shaved head, 190 psi of compression
Wisco pistons
44mm mikuni carb
Westcoast velocity stack
Ported/polished intake path and exhuast on the cylinders


Thats about all i can think of right now.. I will probably have to mount the engine sideways with a centrifical clutch, using all one gear, but havent quite made up my mind yet.. i may use a primary/secondary drive setup with a gearbox.

If i ever decide to sell the bike, Ill take the money to cover the parts used/bought, and the rest i will donate to 3ww..

Anyone has any idea's or wants to donate to the project, feel free... But im more looking for a good frame or rolling chassis to start with..

That cagiva looks sweet to start with, but id HATE to do that to such a rare bike...

Jesse

[4cylinders]

hey, don't get to carried away!! 70hp is easy.

[83185s]

that thing looks bad what kinda engine is that..and are those realtor tires?? ive been wantin them but cant find em...i think that it would be a neat idea quick! it would be a bad trike

[cliff2302]

is the JS550 motor out of a snowmobile?

[BigGreenMachine]

its a seadoo motor, two cylinder as well i believe.

[Quickonstep]

js 550 engine is from a kawasaki standup jetski... and if 70 hp is easy, then i may just have to use one of the 150 powerheads i have layin around here, 150 hp trike, whos your daddy? lol

Jesse

[Studytime]

How are you proposing to cool it?

Studytime

[Quickonstep]

ill use a radiator out of a street bike... it will keep it cool enough to keep things running ok.. will run around 180 degrees, which is just fine... i think a v6 trike would be cool.. and would have a sound that would be outta this world.. its going to be an extreme bike..

Do yall have any suggestions on a frame/bike to start with?

Jesse

[Maine_Triker]

Wow that sounds like one bad *** trike there, Quickonstep.

If i was you i'd go with a 350x frame.

[Quickonstep]

anyone got a 350x frame? or are they one of those frames that are so hard to get it would cost less to build one from scratch?

Jesse

[MTS]

i would build from scratch, or a 85-86 250r frame, the reason i say scratch is becuse you can make everything fit alot nicer, and make it look they way you want :p, i would build a trike with my xs650 yamie motor but im not aloud...lol, i wouldent use a 350x frame, there harder to find, more prone to crackin from what i read, and there not all the big compared to a 250r frame,,i think

[Quickonstep]

it doesnt have to be super light or anything... but what im really lookin for is a f'ed up rolling chassis that i can beat back square and drop this engine in it, and make it work.. didnt really WANT to build it from scratch, but... if i absolutly had to i would.. ill end up taking it to the track next summer..

Jesse

[4cylinders]

hey, go to a bike salvage yard, and check out the frames. swingarms are easy. check out metaltech.com, see if they build trike frames. 150hp sounds like fun, but a trike may be a little shaky.

[Quickonstep]

there aint no trike salvage yards around here... or id do that.. but i think i know a place that might have a few.

Jesse

[MTS]

just get a big bike frame and go from there, i think that would be the easiest rout...

[Quickonstep]

ahh yes, and just use a trike swingarm... good thinkin... i know of a place that has TONS of bikes.. so i shoudlnt have a problem there.. excellent.. ill go take a look tommorrow :D

Jesse

[Studytime]

Not to be rude, but I don't see this project happening. There are reasons you don't see hybrid ATVs everyday.


it doesnt have to be super light or anything... but what im really lookin for is a f'ed up rolling chassis that i can beat back square and drop this engine in it, and make it work.. didnt really WANT to build it from scratch, but... if i absolutly had to i would.. ill end up taking it to the track next summer..

Jesse

This DOES NOT look like the right mentality to me. You want to "beat back square". Besides putting the cart before the horse, I think you need to set some more lofty goals that getting a "f'ed up" rolling chassis. I think the ONLY way to do this is to do it from scratch. This way you'll be able to design the frame to the dimensions you want instead of cutting and welding a trike frame. Also, you can position the frame supports so that you could actually work on the motor once it is installed.


ill use a radiator out of a street bike... it will keep it cool enough to keep things running ok.. will run around 180 degrees, which is just fine... i think a v6 trike would be cool.. and would have a sound that would be outta this world.. its going to be an extreme bike...

Jesse

I mentioned putting the cart before the horse.

Well, I read posts by a lot of dreamers and this sounds like one. I think you're caught up in the excitement of [I]saying you want to build this when you need to redirect that enthusiasm to making it happen.

Where do I propose you start? Get your cooling all worked out. That might break the project right there. I'm just being brutally honest here, on your current plan of attack I don't see your project getting off the ground too far. You should atleast have your engine running OUT of the PWC and out of a river/other. Then work out your drive system and design the rest of the bike around that.

I could help with your cooling system design. I ascertain that your proposed idea of using a bike radiator is either incompletely explained or your idea is incomplete. "Will run around 180 degrees"? Just because that's where you want it to be you can't just guess it'll run at that temperature and then it happens. "Keep things running OK"? Don't you want it to run right instead of "OK"? This a lot of work to just make it run as you describe. You're missing a lot of small details.

You (and other posters) can knock me if you want. Can say I'm being overly negative too, but I'd rather think of it as realistic. It is the small details that will determine the destiny of this project.

Are you serious about this project? Please give a descriptive list as to the tools you have at your disposal.

Studytime

[4cylinders]

hey, if you get too real, you'll never build anything. you could run belts and a harley tranny. electric water pump for a race car, check out summitracing. com, would flow more than enough, with a motor cycle radiator. It may be ugly, but it could be done.

[Mr. Sandman]

Well said Studytime. I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to waste my time to say it.

[3Razors]

With ebay anything can be done for cheap!

[Curtis-Tecate3]

I am with Studytime as well...
Sorry.

Way too many small (and expensive) details that would likely kill the project before you had it 1/2 done.

If you have access to alot of motors I suggest a 500cc dirtbike motor or at least something designed with a gearbox.

It is always nice to dream big though..
Good luck.

[bigredhead]

A local guy here took an XR 500 frame and motor, and hooked up a 350 X rear end.

disk brakes front and back, and a hell of a ride !!!! snow beast !

[Quickonstep]

well, im sorry that you guys feel that way, but.. i have a mill, a lathe, and a welder, i think i can handle this thing quite ok..

Jesse

[GreyhoundRugby]

Im with you man just do wat you want. With good tools and good skills anything can be done in my mind. You could make it from haspin to my place pretty quick
on it and i think id like to try and ride the beast. Anyways look at that "world's fastest trike" on the front page maybe you'll get some ideas. :naughty: Good luck

[Studytime]

Well said Studytime. I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to waste my time to say it.


hey, if you get too real, you'll never build anything. you could run belts and a harley tranny. electric water pump for a race car, check out summitracing. com, would flow more than enough, with a motor cycle radiator. It may be ugly, but it could be done.


I might be wasting my time, but you CAN'T use an electric water pump designed for an automotive application because it's not the proper size. It will have too high of a mass flow rate. What does this mean? This means that similarly how running your hand rapidly through a 3" flame does not burn you the pump will not cool the engine. When you do that only the hair on your hand gets burnt, right? Well, that's because you move your hand so fast that heat transfer cannot take place. A Meziere pump, for example, will pump the amount of water (mass flow rate, mass per time) it is intended to pump. Well, the water passages are so small in the jet ski that the water will move through at a much faster rate and it will not stay in the engine long enough to absorb heat and carry it out.

Okay, think about this. What diameter is the jet of water shooting out of an outboard/jet ski? A whole lot smaller than the diameter of a radiator hose.

I hope this point is digestible for all as it is very important.

I would suggest running the outboard with it's impeller still in operation and measuring how much water flows through the engine per time and then find a pump with a similar gph rating.

Who knows? You may find a large electric fuel pump better suited than an electric water pump.

Oh, and you know what!? Let's just say that you WOULD, for the sake of argument, run an electric water pump designed for a car. Would you wire that with 22 gauge speaker wire? or with 10 gauge wire? Probably not speaker wire. And why? Current draw. I doubt the factory alternator on a jet ski would last very long running at 100% capacity trying to maintain the battery and recharge it as the ignition and water pump drain power from it. I could be wrong on this point, but it is at the very least worth taking into consideration.

This is the start of my argument suggesting it won't happen.


well, im sorry that you guys feel that way, but.. i have a mill, a lathe, and a welder, i think i can handle this thing quite ok..

Jesse.

Jesse, prove us wrong and get an "f'ed up rolling chassis", slap the motor in there, and post a picture of you riding it 80 mph.


Im with you man just do wat you want. With good tools and good skills anything can be done in my mind. You could make it from haspin to my place pretty quick
on it and i think id like to try and ride the beast. Anyways look at that "world's fastest trike" on the front page maybe you'll get some ideas. :naughty: Good luck

You're forgetting two important aspects, experience and knowlege.

Studytime

[atczack]

Just do it and if you run into the big problem's they are talking about you will know not to make that particular mistake next time. Any project sound's cool to me as long as it has 3 wheels when your done! :D

[4cylinders]

hey, when you run into problems, let us know, we've got plenty of answers.

[Studytime]

hey, when you run into problems, let us know, we've got plenty of answers.

And that's what we're trying to do now- prevent problems. You claim we have plenty of answers; however, I suggest that we won't have all the answers.

When you take on a project like this, often you get so far off in the weeds that no one may be able to help. We can try to offer suggestions though.

Studytime

[Quickonstep]

well studytime, i dont know where you get the idea of me using an electric water pump.. that was never mentioned or even thought of using. I can fabricate a pully (using the lathe) to go onto the crank, then use a pump to pump the water.. The stream of water that is exited from the motor cannot really be found, but i can tell you where it does come out... 1. from a quarter inch hole. 2. from the exhuast. Now if you can mesure the water that comes from the exhuast then go right ahead.. btw, the intake for the water is 1/2, beins that the exhuast will be dry, and the water will be recirculated, it WILL work, it doesnt have the option not too..

I am terribly sorry studytime that you have not had the ability to become innovative in your life, and i wish you all the best.




Jesse, prove us wrong and get an "f'ed up rolling chassis", slap the motor in there, and post a picture of you riding it 80 mph..

will do


You're forgetting two important aspects, experience and knowlege.

I guess no one has EVER pioneered ANYTHING..


Please studytime, if your going to bash the idea, then just stay outta the thread, theres a million other threads that you can bash.

Jesse

[Billy Golightly]

About almost 4 years ago now, I started my project 500X threewheeler. I got alot done in the first year, but I found out ALOT of problems too. I've been working on it very slowly since then. I made a big mistake when I started out, I did not plan, or keep track of anything. I tried "wingin' it" and ended up with alot of problems. I've encoutered problems with the engine sitting so much taller in the frame that the carbuerator would not sit underneath the gas tank, this meant that new brackets had to be made, no problem. The Problem was when you try to put the seat on on it. There is a 2 in gap between the tank and the seat, and the seat only mounts in two places intead of 4 now. Making 2 more new brackets to fasten the seat in its original mounts requires raising it in height, which will degrade handling of the machine substantially because of top-heavyness. My kickstarter goes EXACTLY where the rear mastercylinder and other rear brake hardware are required to mount on the frame. My front fender rubs on the exhaust pipe, The petcock on the fuel tank hits the oversized cooling fins on the cylinder, and thats just the start of it.

While I agree that the only way that you will ever get started is to just go start working on it, you've also got to very carefully weigh and considering every single change you make, even the slightest ones. Work out as many details in your head as possible, and then try to apply them. Dont be suprised if they dont work as you had figured either, thats just the way it goes.

[Studytime]

hey, if you get too real, you'll never build anything. you could run belts and a harley tranny. electric water pump for a race car, check out summitracing. com, would flow more than enough, with a motor cycle radiator. It may be ugly, but it could be done.

I'm not sure where I got the electric water pump ideal from. Hmmm???


As for measuring the water coming out of the exhaust, does it just condense out of the exhaust? No, there will probably be a HOSE carrying it to some point where it enters the exhaust after exiting the motor. You'd have to measure the volume of water per time from that hose. To spell it out, you may just have to remove the current hose and add a longer piece. All this, and you plan to really accomplish this project? I think you'll be in over your head... especially if you can't measure something as simple as this and need it all spelled out.

Okay, Mr. Smartguy, what size are you making your pulley? Spin your pump too fast and it'll cavitate; too slow, and you'll overheat at idle.


...I am terribly sorry studytime that you have not had the ability to become innovative in your life, and i wish you all the best...

Jesse


Here's my favorite one! Innovative in my life? We'll start another thread discussing what a mechanical engineer is if you want and what they do.

I'm not bashing you or your idea. Your idea just needs some form added to it... A LOT of form or it won't stand up.

Do you have a digital camera? If so, keep us posted.

Oh, and your description about the cooling wasn't very detailed. I still think that should be your first step. Sort the cooling out first, get your motor running on a bench somewhere before you go any further. This alone, could take all winter- designing and building your cooling system. I know that's not something I could do in two afternoons. The cooling capacity of a river is a great temperature resevoir to cool from, not having it anymore means a WHOLE new cooling system. Did you follow the post about the smaller volume of cooling passages meaning the water could potentially travel through too quickly?

What do you think of HondaATC's post?

Studytime

[mwill15]

70 hp at the crank isn't worth all that effort. I ride with a guy that has a banshee that makes h.p. number twice that big at the wheels. If you really just want straight line acceleration (and not much of anything else) banshee is the way to go. I AM NOT a fan of the banshee, but the truth muct be spoken. There would be way less money involved, and I hate to sy it, but the banshee would probably be more reliable. I have made many motors fit in many different things; there are ALWAYS problems.

http://bansheeracing.com/donniejp.wmv

[Quickonstep]

Here's my favorite one! Innovative in my life? We'll start another thread discussing what a mechanical engineer is if you want and what they do.


And that explains it all...


As for honda atc, he started out, did somthing HE wanted to do, and is still working the bugs out.. apx how long do you think atv's were around before they were made availble to the general public? dont you think the industry had some bugs, EVERYONE has bugs with custom stuff.. do you think everything goes together as perfectly as they do when they build bikes on american chopper? i think you need to pull yourself away from the television studytime and get back into reailty.. Ive HAD this planned out, as far as cooling/fuel delivery to the motor, it was going to originally be in a 2 wheeled deal. When my idea for the cooling fails, THEN you can say i told you so.


And i do believe there is a thing called "trial and error" i never expected to get it right the first time.. i dont think anyone does..

Kudo's on your project hondaatc...

Jesse

[mwill15]

That's not the guy I ride with, just an example of what these machines are capable of. Not impressed? Check out the website.

www.bansheeracing.com

[Lots_Of_Nothing]

While I'd hate to interupt a arguement,, If your going to do it, just do it,, and don't let anyone tell you different,. Although I personally think your plan for this (from what i've read.. I skipped over most the BS) is terrible,, What exactly are you wanting to get out of this? straight line speed? all around riding? or what? I would atleast use a motor from the offroad world (dirtbikes, quads, atcs..etc..). I saw you mention a 6 cylinder,, and while that does sound somewhat cool, Imagine how much of a pile it would be to drive anywhere besides the road. I'm not even going to comment on the jetski motor..

I really dont think 70HP is worth all the trouble just to use that turd of a engine. I mean.. a CR500, or KX500 can be made to hit 70+hp (for alot less trouble then it would be to work out your problems with the other engine) and those engines would be ALOT easier to put in, seeing as they have both been done many times.

The only gain your gonna get useing your motor instead of something like a cr/kx 500 is WEIGHT, so when you think of the whole power to weight ratio, that 70HP is gonna be dogged down because of the size of the motor (the ones you mention anyways), While the cr/kx 500 is gona be pumping around that same HP with only one cylinder and hell of a lot less weight.

You can do anything you want,, Nothings impossible,, You just have to ask yourself if its really gonna be worth all the trouble and cash.

[Quickonstep]

its just somthing different, somthing weird, a coversation peice, i have most of everything i need here, except the frame.. the rest of the stuff i can build... i know i can do this for fairly cheap, and have a bike thats different from all the rest, it might not be the fastest thing in the world, but itll be somthing thats just different.

Jesse

[Studytime]

...they build bikes on american chopper... i think you need to pull yourself away from the television studytime and get back into reailty..

Jesse

Isn't it ironic I need to pull myselft away from the TV when you reference a television program. I actually can pride myself into saying I've never watched a complete episode of that show or any of its knock-offs. I think they had a very original idea, and they should have left it at that. If it weren't for the added drama, I may have been more interested in actually watching it.

One last thing, NO, NONE, ZERO, NEVER was there an ATV thrown together by a professional corporation that did not use a methodological approach which is what you're NOT doing. They actually use engineering, believe it or not. I doubt you'll finish this project, but if nothing else use this thread as MOTIVATION!




And i do believe there is a thing called "trial and error" i never expected to get it right the first time.. i dont think anyone does..

Jesse

Funny, you should mention this because it makes for a good introduction to what those blasted engineers actually do. We actually apply knowlege and science and then FULLY expect to be in the general vicinity. WE don't guess that a motorcyle radiator modified to work in a closed loop cooling cycle will "run about 180 degrees" and work "ok". We actually do thermodynamic calculations and figure these values out to the limit of practical calculations.

And to think there are actually people who pay for a consulting engineer's time and calculations... when you simply say "no thanks".


... i know i can do this for fairly cheap...
Jesse
HAHAHA.... I know you don't understand this, but that was your way of saying I was right.

So to you Jesse, good riddance with your trial and error. I'm through with this thread...

Studytime

[Quickonstep]

thank god


Jesse

[4cylinders]

oh yeah, thanks.

[mwill15]

They don't build bikes on american chopper. They merely order pre-fabbed parts and assemble them. Some of their body work is totally custom, but the frames, motors, rims, tires, brakes, lights, seats, front & rear fenders, and just about everything elese is a generic part ordered out of the same magazine I can buy at Wal-Mart. Dosen't impress me at all. Building something from scratch is another story; take into consideration Jesse James; now theres talent. Ohh, and guess what! He doesn't just throw together a frame and "beat it square". He has a jig set up to insure that his frames come out right.

[cliff2302]

Mwill, OCC are assemblers, not builders.

Quickonstep, do what you want. If you wanna make a 550CC bike, try it. There is no shame in loosing a fght with a frame. But, what i wanna know is how you are gonna make a drive system? good luck with your project
Joe

[OldSchoolin86]

Okay, Mr. Smartguy, what size are you making your pulley? Spin your pump too fast and it'll cavitate; too slow, and you'll overheat at idle.

Mr. Smartguy, you need air to cavitate, you don't get it just from spinning to fast. Also measuring the current flow won't help too much because it won't be enough in a closed loop system. Your DEAD on point with one thing, it won't be cheap to do it right.

[Studytime]

Mr. Smartguy, you need air to cavitate, you don't get it just from spinning to fast. Also measuring the current flow won't help too much because it won't be enough in a closed loop system. Your DEAD on point with one thing, it won't be cheap to do it right.


OS-ing,

You're right on the fact that you need air to cavitate. A better way to say this would be that you need a gas to cavitate a pump. So, it would not be air, it would be STEAM causing this said cavitation.

This is the same reason why a high performance outboard prop will cavitate. Now, [anyone] don't respond and say that your 1972 Chrysler outboard cavitates when the prop is too close to the surface of the water because that's not what I'm referring to- nor is that real cavitation. Real cavitation is when the pressure of the water on the exit side of the propeller is below the saturation pressure for that given temperature and the water turns into water vapor. In time this can actually damage a prop.

For the most part efficiency would just drop off in the application at hand from spinning this automotive water pump too fast, but yes, it could cavitate with no AIR present- it would require a pressure drop substantial enough to get below Psat and the water would vaporize and that vaporized water would cause cavitation.

Hey, found this nifty article; it explains what I was saying,
http://www.i-boats.com/propellers_101.htm

Just wanted to clear up this last point as it was directed at me. Pretty neat phenomenon, if you think about it. This is the same way that water will boil at room temperature under a strong vacuum.


...Also measuring the current flow won't help too much because it won't be enough in a closed loop system...

I'm still not clear what you were saying here. The important part is to just make sure you have the same cooling capacity as the previous cooling system provided.

Regards!
Studytime

[OldSchoolin86]

I'm still not clear what you were saying here. The important part is to just make sure you have the same cooling capacity as the previous cooling system provided.

Regards!
Studytime

Agreed! The same "Cooling capacity" is needed. The current system, as you've stated already, is dependand on constant fresh water. I haven't ran any numbers here but I'm guessing that if you close looped this it may need more flow due to the great increase of coolant temp. What's your thoughts on this?

[Studytime]

Agreed! The same "Cooling capacity" is needed. The current system, as you've stated already, is dependand on constant fresh water. I haven't ran any numbers here but I'm guessing that if you close looped this it may need more flow due to the great increase of coolant temp. What's your thoughts on this?


We agree that the same cooling capacity is needed. We can't change the specific heat of the water, so the flow should be changed.

First off, i used this method, i'm about to get into, to find how many GPM a chevy LT1 would require to cool, according to my assumptions, and I came up with ~31.2 gpm. Meziere offers an LT1 electric pump that flows 35 GPM, so these figures should be in the ball park.

First off, let's assume that this motor is 40% efficient. We know it makes 70hp (well, first Jesse said 60, but now he says 70), if this motor had no heat losses or friction losses (add the other 60% back in) then we'd be looking at 175hp output. Again, we only see a percentage of this because the rest is robbed from friction, heat transfer, etc... Now, from this 60% that we lose let's say that 80% of that is due to heat transfer. This means that 48hp is lost due to heat transfer (or 35.304KW or 35.304 KJ/s). So this means in order for the engine to operate at a steady temperature that this much heat must be given off by the engine and that the same amount must be picked up by our coolant and that the same amount must be rejected from our radiator.

Based on the value above, I picked some temperatures of what the water COULD possible be entering and leaving the engine. There's a certain amount of engergy in the water so the values associated with this energy (enthalpy values) can be used to back out the mass flow rate.

Assuming the water enters at 30*C and exits at 70*C as set up in the river this means that .14606kg/s of water flows through the engine or 2.235 gallons/minute.

NOW, if we close this system and say that the water leaving is still 70*C, but the water entering the engine is now 60*C (as the radiator will not be large enough to cool it back down to ambian temperature) then we need .280703kg/s or 4.463 gallons/minute.

So, based on these assumptions we're looking at needing essentially twice the flow of the original system. This means we need 4.463 gallons leaving the engine/minute. The friction loss through the engine will dictate what the engine inlet conditions (exit of pump) should be.

This goes right instep with what I was saying about NOT using a racecar electric water pump, which would be SPEEDING 5X the water we need through the engine- possibly not even picking up heat because of it's velocity.

These values are all aproximates, but should be closer than a guess.

Did I mention that an electric water pump would probably be best? I think it would be provided that you have a sufficient enough alternator to power it AND a corresponding radiator fan.

Yes, OS-ing your idea was right on par, being we'll increase the average temperature of the coolant coming into the engine.

Additionally, as I've reading over this the 70hp rating is at max operating speed. Also, at this speed HT will be less of a parasitic loss because of the rapid speed of the pistons. Friction would me a bigger factor in where the lost power is going so I should have used a lower value for the percentage lost due to heat transfer, BUT the trend will be the same... and like I said in my opening comments the value I came up with for an LT1 was very close to what an actual LT1 water pump flows...

Just some thoughts...

Studytime

[Studytime]

Jesse, I was just curious if you ever started on your project. I'm not trying to say anything- just wondering if you even scratched the ground. Keep us posted.

Studytime