Im not too impressed with the New...

[86250RZ]

Breed 4 strokes. Went to the sand drags this weekend and I beat The Raptor, Honda 450R and a 2004 piped banshee (me and the banshee were in a different classes but we raced just for fun) I actually think something was ether wrong with the banshee or this dude just didnt know how to ride it because it was no contest, I blew his doors off 3 runs in a row. Now to give the TRX 450R a little credit ( in pratice runs) we swaped wins back and forth 2 for the 450 2 for 18yr. old 250R and it really came down to who got the best holeshot. The Raptor gave me one heck of a run dont get me wrong, it was a photo finish but it's also 660 cc's and a 2003 model up against a dinosaur trike. Now for the bad part I did loose to the lone YFZ 450 (only one there vs 4 honda TRX 450R's, 1 Honda 400ex, one 440ex and one KFX 400) I was a little nervous after making it this far and dumped the clutch at the start and saw nothing but sky, by the time I recovered it was to late, bad thing about it was that he was sleeping at the start and if I would have just feathered the clutch it would have been all over, oh well thats part of racing and he one it all so I lost to the fastest one, the next round was between the YFZ 450 & TRX 450R. Believe it or not the only guys giving me props were the banshee guys, two of them come up to me after the Trial Runs and said I was the guy to beat, they said that if I could keep getting good holeshots like that no one could bet me, kinda made feel good, these banshee guys we are supposed to hate (us 250R guys) so much gave the 250R its props. Sorry for the long story guys just wanted to share my opinion and let you guys know even tho I lost in the later rounds I had one he11 of a time and will be back soon for revenge. :TrikesOwn

[trikerider2oo7]

dont worry...you can win next time if you dont dump the clutch. how far are you racin?

[atckowalski]

SWEEEET!!!!!!! :Bounce :Bounce :Bounce

[86250RZ]

dont worry...you can win next time if you dont dump the clutch. how far are you racin?

It was only 200ft Drags, I was expecting 300ft. These new quads are nice and all and for 4 strokes they do accelerate very fast but you would think 18yrs later they would be blowing my plastics off. I will bet that in the next 18yrs the quads built today will be no contest to the one's being built then. If the CPSC dosent screw it up. My bro's pred. was doing pretty good against the 450's also but he was having a harder time than I at keeping the frontend planted... lol You want to know what shocked me the most, in the first 100 yrds my nephew was keeping up with the new quads on a 350X but after the first 100yrds it was by by for him. They had a Warrior only class because there were so many there and we thought he would be racing them but they said he had a unfair advantage against them. I said so you think his advantage outweighs the advantages the 660 Raptor and 450's have against him. I guess they did, so he had to race me on the 250R, he lost of course, then the very next race he had to race against my bro's Pred. 500 and he lost. 2 races 2 losses (other than the trial races) to his own blood, thats what irritated him more than anything I think. lol

[NICKG]

I just bought a new cannondale quad and I can tell you it smokes my 250r in every way...incredible machine.

[leprogle]

a little off the topic, but lets see some pic of that new cannondale!!!!

[ATC crazy]

Sounds like you had some fun there. Did ya get any pics...I'd love to see a trike kill the new generation ATV's...

[250SX]

where is this racing going on? I'd like to bring the T3 over there.

[NICKG]

i will take some for you I got it brand new for 2500. the dealers are just about giving them away in some places! I found a dealer in ct that had one left and was persistant in offering 2500....they decided to let it go(msrp was 6995)

[250Rfanatic85]

Yea, I agree with being unimpressed with the new 4strokes.I barely lost to a Raptor,when he dropped the flag, i looked at the the heavens,when i let off the throttle the front tire dropped and the raptor was about half a trike length ahead of me and some how i caught up to him where the front tire was in his footpeg area but in the other lane when we finished! The only thing done to the x is a pipe and K&N airfilter(and it hasn't been rejetted so it spits and sputters when lettin off the throttle)

[250Rfanatic85]

he are some pics.....Enjoy!!

[250Rfanatic85]

more....Yea also (86250rz) was talkin about someone who had an 04 banshee that didnt know how to ride it or the shee wasnt runnin right...I beat that banshee on the 86 X...yup,a PIPED SHEE!! my rear tires were about 3 feet ahead of his front tires,any ways that shee is in the last pic, it is the Blue shee!

[86250RZ]

Well I didnt realize you got pics while we were out there Tim. I lost my darn digi. cam out there I guess. After I got through unpacking it was nowhere to be found :mad: Hey Tim (250Rfanatic85) did you get any pics of the WET T-Shirt contest :D :TrikesOwn

[86250RZ]

In this pic below me and 250Rfanatic85 had to race eachother. When we pulled up to the line they made me give him about a trike legnth head start, I was like what????

[85_ATC_200S]

I'm not suprised you beat him. Think about it, 2 strokes put out double the hp's of their 4 stroke counterparts of the same cc. And also, you never did say what mods you have Vs. their, if any mods. You didn't impress me any, and i won't be impressed untill i find out what your opponents had for mods.

[86250RZ]

I'm not suprised you beat him. Think about it, 2 strokes put out double the hp's of their 4 stroke counterparts of the same cc. And also, you never did say what mods you have Vs. their, if any mods. You didn't impress me any, and i won't be impressed untill i find out what your opponents had for mods.


Well I wasnt trying to impress you or anyone for that matter and your knowledge of today's 4 strokes dosent impress me at all, if you would have done a little homework before you started shooting your mouth off you would know that today's 4 strokes are putting out much more H.P. per cc than just 2 to 3yrs ago and a 2 stroke does not put out twice the H.P. per cc any longer. Now go back to class and gain alittle knowledge of Today's 4 strokes before you end up with you foot in your mouth again. FYI my modds are FMF pipe, carbonfiber reeds and the engine is on it's 1st overbore.

[NICKG]

86250rz.......you also forgot forgot to say that you are about 65 or more lbs lighter than these. I bet if you did the math and figured a power to weight ratio, you be even more impressed with yourself(kidding) these new quads are fast, but they are much heavier than any of the race trikes, therefore they should be beaten buy them in a short race, however given sufficent open room, they are faster. I can tell you that I have a few bone stock machines and my cannondale smokes my 250r's(and I have a atc and trx) in most cases(save a short run...then it is the atc) and it has tons more torque and way more throttle response(love fuel injection). I personally prefer 2 strokes over the 4 strokes(they are less demanding to ride i feel) most people today are not familiar with 2 strokes (not their fault) so they underestimate them....I had a guy on a raptor (when they first came out) talk smack that he can piss all over my lt500....needless to say I raced him and he went home with his tail between his legs. The magazines are doing a great job of hyping up these newer machines....like a "piped banshee"......... big deal, I was not afraid of them when they were new and if they really wanted a fast banshee, they would use an rz 350 motor(i had 4 of these and they are ok, but not that amazing)half the guys who have these things can't or don't know how to use them anyway(posers) I guess I am rambling but.......simple math, simple math


oh, just as a side note(and this has been bothering me for a while)...I raced trikes when they were new(dist 6 and 34) all you guys on here talking up the tigers and the cagivas(and for that matter the tri z) and how great and fast they are is kinda funny, I know that I will get flamed for it but, did any of you guys actually think about why these were so rare? it was not because they were "expensive" as most of you guys think they were or hard to get(truth be know they were easily available) the reason was because they were pieces of junk..plain and simple(sorry but true) they were no faster than 250r or tecates and were as much a piece of backyard engineering as production. They were "off brands" that pretty much most people avoided and were very unreliable(I know this as fact as I had lots of experience with these) what they did was use components they could get cheap, hence the rotax motors, the grimeca and the marzochi crap.What do you think ATK/CanAM/Tiger(all pretty much the same company btw)does? they buy up excess inventory or obsolete stuff and work them into their new machines...ever wonder why there is no real year for any of them? you guys all rant about the astro conversions to 4 wheelers as bastards but you never thought about the 2 wheeler to 3 wheeler tigers? or cagivas? open you eyes a little....

[86250RZ]

I agree with you about the Tigers not being that reliable but dissagree with you about the performance. Im 33yrs old and I was around during the hey day also, the Tigers were the fastest out there period, they had a problem with hooking up but if you had it set up right there was no touching it and also the only Tiger that was a 2 to 3 conversion was the 80. By the way my 250R is 50 pounds lighter than these new 4 stroke 450's and we did run longer distances than just the drags, we had a open field of 150yrds and the out come was the same, I still won and 250Rfanatic85 is my witness.

[yater]

Well put NICKG.

[NICKG]

did you race a tiger? I did. they were fast in the stock classes and that is about it. I can tell you in the modified classes, they were no way faster than a modded jap bike and did not have the parts support form the aftermarket. ever see a different pipe for the tiger? how about better swingarms? porting? reeds? bet not. I stand behind what I said as I have been there and saw it. What big pro races did they win? I cannot even recall how many. I think it is great that all you guys revere them, I just wanted to set the record straight and let everyone know the real truth....not someone's dream. I will say that the best one tiger did was the 200, but after about 1 to 1 1/2 years of them, kawasaki releases the 200 kit and ...no more tigers

[NICKG]

ok lets do some basic math (assuming the same riders and similar gearing)


lets say your 250r weighs 325lbs and has 37 hp
this equals a pw/wt ratio of .1138 hp per lb(this means that you have .1138 hp to move each lb of the machine)
yamaha raptor weighs like 425 lbs and has 29 hp
p/w ratio is .0682 hp per lb
not a fair race
lets take a cannondale 380lbs 38 hp
p/w ratio is .1 hp per lb now we are getting close
banshee 34 hp 390 lbs
p/w ratio .0871 still not fair
lt500 quad racer 51 hp 440 lbs
p/w ratio .1159 hp per lb that is a close one
give you some basic insight on why this matters.....a cr500 has a p/w ratio of .2956 hp per lb(ever wonder why they are so fast?)
crf450 .2521 hp per lb(this is still a big loss compared to the 500)
04 yz250 .2318
If you drag race(and I did for a long time with my grand nationals) you should pay very close attention to these numbers.
note to kids in school...take physics, trust me then things will begin to make sense

[85_ATC_200S]

NICE 86250RZ, sure doesn't look like you factored in everything that you got over them, weight, power, and in some cases just experience. Now i'm still waiting for that list of mods they have. I sure hope they all weren't stock.

[Trikeaholic]

Well, Nick, You are basically right about all that "one off brand" trike tyrade. What you dont say, is that these "off brands" as you call them were mostly run by privateers. As far as pro races go, did Tiger ATV win alot at flat-track and Ice track? I recall that they did. Junk? Im not sure that is a good word to use. Fragile-that is more like it. I dont know anything about a cagiva, but the few Tigers I have owned and seen in person are very lightweight and flimsy. Definatley a machine to be ridden for 20-30 minute heats and then properly gone over with a fine toothed comb. Would I trail ride one or want one for a daily rider? NO WAY, it wouldnt last a month. There, you are spot on about the Japanese machines durability! I think its cool that a company like Tiger or Tricky Dicks had the gonads and the desire to even race against the "big 3". We all know that some Euro companies never made it into the 3 wheeler race scene, with more money and resources. I know what you mean about the "dream"- most have never seen one in person but hear alot of exaggerated tales of how they can leap tall buildings in first gear. The one-offs are what they are, a piece of history, built by men with a desire to go against the grain and compete. For that, they are special machines, there is no denying that. :D

Oh, one more thing, The motor used in a Tiger has no reeds, it is a rotary valve inducted 2 stroke. The only reed intake one was the 500. I tell ya this, the rotary valve induction is wicked. Im not sure of exactly how it works, but I can say this, it revs faster and higher than any reed motor I have ever seen. A very interesting design, I wonder why its not used anymore?

[NICKG]

the 500 was a left over can am engine,(as were most of the engines) ...., it was commom in light planes and snowmobiles .The funny part is that no 2 tigers were the same, some had can am,ktm, bombardier some rotax(all the same motors, but from different suppliers) some have left kick starts and some right starts. as far as race wins, I said they won in stock classes....no pro classes...hell even polaris will win in a class somewhere. They were good in the 200 class because they only had to run against the 200x....notice the cagiva? yea..it ran 200 too. then kawasaki got the 200kits legalized for that class and you never heard tiger or cagiva again(hardly ever heard cagivas...they came too late)
the reason they went to 200 class was simple, they were 2 stroke motors(and at that time they DID make twice the power of a same sized 4 stroke) they cleaned up in this class...untill kawasaki....ultimately honda was due to come in (and infact did in 85) with the atc200r. that was the only breif success tiger or cagiva ever had.......and it was because they DID NOT have to compete with honad or kawasaki....yamaha was a joke back then.....the tri z was a pig, still is a pig and will always be one...they are nice for trail riding though(ironically their main focus that most seem not to know)
as far as Tigers and cagivas go.....I will take a honda or kawasaki anyday but I do agree that they are kinda cool in that they are different...that is why I got a cannondale.......

[NICKG]

oh as a side note, most of the parts they used on the tigers were of can am origin....this company was somehow part of polaris or bombardier so if you are looking for parts...the dirt bikes of that era fronm those companies are where you will find most of them....the worst part of the tigers was the bing carbs that some had.....what a pos

[Trikeaholic]

I know that all can-ams had Bing carbs, but the tigers ive seen all have Mikuni carbs, and thier ads say they do, as well. Hmmm. When I needed and intake boot for my 250, Tony Murphy (can am rotax parts guy) asked if it was for a Bing or Mikuni carb, so there must be different intake boots for the different carbs?
One little correction, though. Back in the 80's, Im pretty sure Rotax was still owned BY Rotax, and in the late 80's Bombardier finally purchased a controlling interest in the company. For those who dont know, Can-Am was a motorcycle built by Bombardier, and used a Rotax engine, like a ski-doo and sea-doo and the Bombardier golf carts of today. Early KTM's also used Rotax motors until Bombardier bought the company and wouldnt sell to them anymore. ATK bought up what was left of Cannondale, because, IMO, they were either told that the motor supply from Bombardier/Rotax would be shut off, or were afraid of it happening sooner or later.
True, the can am bikes used the same basic motor as tiger, so true there are alot of parts interchangeability, but unlike the Can-AM bikes, wich have "Bombardier" logos on the motors, the Tigers say just plain "rotax" wich leads one to believe that the motors were purchased from Rotax in Austria, also Can-Am was not using the LC motor until 86 (not positive but pretty sure-correct me if im wrong) I dont believe that Bombardier/Can-Am had anything do do financially or R&D wise with Tiger ATV, If you search some archives on Can-AM, they also had a prototype 3 wheeler, so if they were in some kind of deal, why bother with that? Alot of people think that Rotax and Bombardier are synonomous, when they are not, they are 2 seperate companies, Bombardier being their holding company and subsequently, setting policy, wich nowadays probably does not include selling engines to thier competitors! :D BMW has a 650 dual sport bike that uses the same motor as a DS 650 quad, only BMW paid enough to have BMW cast into the side cases, ever seen it?? Ugly machine.

[NICKG]

I think it depends on the trike, I did see some with the bombardier logo(possibly a replacement part or motor even)...some left and some right kicks...hell I've seen atk's that way too( i am sure it has to do with the intended country they were to be used in or made as Austria rotax motors do usually start on the left....look at husabergs and husqvarnas) and almost all Can ams had left kick I ever saw(I had a 406). as far as the can am trike...look at it closly...it is a tiger. bing carbs were on the ones I saw and the one I had were very early ones...they changed a lot of things as they were made due to the supply issues, I am pretty sure that they got closed(tiger) because they did not have permission to use rotax motors in a trike.......or something of that effect. the problem historically with atk is that they promise the world and then don't follow thru...when they sell out of cannondale parts...they will be done. they only bought the physical inventory, not the rights(or plans for that matter) to make more. I hope people enjoy this thread, it is a history lesson . I think it is ironic to see that tiger and cannondale went the same way...anyone else see the similarity?

[hondaATCman]

Wow, great history lesson guys!! This is cool, keep it up.

[86250RZ]

Boy this thread has turned into a whole different dog from what it started as, but keep it up. Im impressed with the knowledge you 2 guys have on the subject.

[KASEY]

i will take some for you I got it brand new for 2500. the dealers are just about giving them away in some places! I found a dealer in ct that had one left and was persistant in offering 2500....they decided to let it go(msrp was 6995)
LOL i call bs !!! lets see the paperwork!!! :D :D :D

[NICKG]

LOL i call bs !!! lets see the paperwork!!! :D :D :D
ok, here you go
the green paper is the update for the 02 manual, they did not print 03 manuals

[NICKG]

the black is the 03 I got for 2500 I took it out this weekend and managed to roll it twice and wreck the front wheels on some rocks(they are stock with .125 itp's....don't get them)
the red one I got for 1000, it was never out of the factory. they assembled it and it was disassembled at the factory when they discovered engine problems in the batch that it had. I got it from Rick Cecc, he raced them and was sponsored by cannondale in gncc. its all there save the motor :( but I have found a new motor for 1000 i an going to get shortly

[Trikeaholic]

man, nick some of this sounds too wacky to be for real. Like kickstarters on either sides? that would cost alot to change, I had an ATK 406 and it was a typical Rotax left hand start motor. I have had a bunch of 1980's ATKs, a 250 and a few 406's and a 1995 605 Dual sport. Ive had 2 tigers, a 200 and a 250 and both were very similar, the only differences was the front master cylinder, one was a brembo and one was a magura. As far as the permission to use the engine in a trike, that SOUNDS preposturous. Any business would sell thier product to anyone with the money to buy it, especially if there was no law against manufacturing the product. It just sounds too far fetched to me. Where did you hear that? PS RZ, I dont have any more knowledge than the next guy, I was a big Can-AM and ATK fan back then, and I remember Tiger ATV, so does my ATK dealer, who used to be a Can-Am dealer, we talk about stuff here and there. Im not saying Im right 100% on everything, and Im not saying anyones wrong (nick LOL) but its interesting to hear different takes on history, just like in school. The facts are, as I see them:

Tiger ATV was formed by ballsy Americans to race the Big 3
They bought the motors from Rotax in Austria
They bought the forks, brakes and electronics from European suppliers because:
1. the Japanese would have said "stick your new company up your tailpipe, were not helping you do jack"
2. nobody was using Euro parts
3. They "sounded" like exotic, high quality stuff
Thats IT. there is no more to the story, IMO

Very similar story to ATK, only ATK is somehow able to survive.
Nick, you really think ATK is not going to pick up where Cannondale left off? I figured (I have a Business degree-so it seemed rather obvious to me) that they bought the whole she-bang to try to survive as a company, and wean themselves from the Bombardier supply line. What makes you think otherwise? I mean, it makes perfect sence to build thier own motors in house, doesnt it? I dont know anything more than what it looks like from the outside, as a businessman, whats the inside scoop? do you know something?

Fascinating stuff, aint it??

[Trikeaholic]

[QUOTE=NICKG]the 500 was a left over can am engine,(as were most of the engines) ...., it was commom in light planes and snowmobiles .QUOTE]

BTW, this statement is absolutley NOT true. There was NEVER a sled with a single cyliner, 500CC air cooled Rotax engine, If there was, and there is proof, I will eat my words. Craig Corda, a factory Tiger 500 rider sent me some articles, parts and a factory promotion photo of his race bike, and a reprint of a dirt wheels article dated .......

Dam 25 minutes later, turned the house upside down-CANT FIND IT!!!

I gotta say it was 85?? I dont know. The point was, did Can-AM and Tiger use the 500 Air cooled at the same time?? I dont know. As for a left-over Can Am motor, I dont think so. Like I said before, and I believe with all my being, the two companies had NOTHING to do with eachother. Was Tiger ATV a failure? Yep, so dont go there. Are the jap bikes better? Of course they are. thats not the point. But this is the truth, Bombardier and Poolaris had absolutley positivley nothing to do with Tiger or anyone else, thats like saying ATK uses bombardier motors and they are part of bombardier, Im sure that anyone who works at ATK would be livid at that very Idea! LOLOL

PS, I like ATK, and I hope they continue to use Rotax power. I wish I still had my 250 LQ model (got stolen) best dirt bike I ever had.

[NICKG]

the way I heard it is alot like the automotive buisness, (ever wonder why you cannot lease a car in ny?I can tell you) it all boils down to responsibility of the companies , I thisheard a long time ago and it has since been reinforced buy my automotive jobs....most companies source the major components from suppliers, these sare then built into engines or whatever and delivered to the assembly line. these companies sell manufacturing liscenses to other companies for a specific amount of units or for use in a certain vehicle(example, chrysler engine built by bmw for the new mini) or industrial use(or perhaps for go karts only) what happens is one of these companies sees a need in the marketplace and starts to sell these motors for a reason other than that they are liscesed for....this results in the losss of that supply. I understood that they got their engines from Can Am...which coincidently failed/became atk around the same time as tiger failed. as far as atk not supporting the cannodales, I can tell you for absolute sure they can't...you see thay only bought physical inventory...no contracts with suppliers and no rights for the designs or plans. Dinili has the intelectual rights to the cannaondale line. I can tell you that there will be or may be already a suit over it, Remember that if you sell the likeness of anyone's product without liscense you are infringing on there intelectual property(a big no no) they saw the oppurtunity and took it to bolster their own well being. You also have to understand that the japanese companies did not say that you can't buy out components, why did suzuki, kawasaki and yamaha all use kyb or kayaba suspension? or showa on suzukis too? they bought those components so they could build the unit to cost...not for the quality, that unfortunatly is not how things are being done, first you need to build to a cost figure and THEN bring quality up. also they could have been doing a component deal with can am or cagive or ktm for the other components too as part of a deal for the engines. Unfortunatley we will never know for sure, I just said what my understanding was about it. I lived by the largest Tiger dealer in the north east (sports spot)

[NICKG]

who knows for sure, it maybe the same engine as a 403 and they called it a 500(can am did sell a 500) I am not trying to flame anyone here but it is awefully odd that tiger was close to polaris in location(and for that matter bombardier too) it may be that these motors were versions of other engines as most motors are built in families(like the small block chevy many different displacements , but basically the same) that catered to individual customers needs...that would explain the kick starts on either side and the bing carbs

[NICKG]

one other thing I did not mention is that we in the USA don't see all versions of a manufacturers engines, tiger may have been getting bombardier engines that they only sold in canada or somewhere else(example would be rz500 which canada had and we did not...)

[Trikeaholic]

Nick, Can-Am did not become ATK! ATK was founded in Cali in the early 80's building frames for the Honda XR motor. Horst Lietner, the founder of ATK, called home to Austria to get an engine supplier because he knew Honda would not or could not sell him XR motors for his own bikes, look it up, its true. I dont like to quote magazines, but I have an 86 dirt bike with a test of an ATK 560 4 stroke with guess what kind of motor?? In 86, can-am was still building bikes, so Can-Am did not, and could not have, become ATK, they are a separate entity,I would bet anything against that. just like Tiger was a completley seperate company. I dont see how something so plain as day can not be believed .Im sorry but your business theories are wack. IF you are a union worker in an auto plant, that would probably explain your thinking (im not trying to dis you, in any way, dont misunderstand) but I dont think you understand capitalism very well. There is no conspiracy, or other wacky side deals that were cut to fool anyone. The whole thing was simply, a man with a dream, and the dream was to build an ATV to race competitivley with the big boys, and eventually the big boys crushed the mans dream. Thats it in a nutshell. The rumor about Tiger ATV is that the founder was taken to the cleaners by his ex wife, in addition to not being able to compete with the japanese quads, after the AMA banned 3 wheeler racing. Thats how I heard it. Sure, they outsourced the cheapest parts, mabey showa or kyb would have sold to Tiger but at what price? Marzohcci needed the business more, thats for sure! thats not the point anyway. As far as the engines go, there really wasnt any other choice but briggs and stratton or techumseh, andI think Manco had a deal with those two high performance engine manufacturers! LOL ! I dont think bombardier/Can-Am could have or would have sold the motors at retail, I think you could have bought them wholesale from the factory is another thing about Agree or disagree?

I hope this makes some kind of sense, a few beers makes a bad writer...................

It really doesnt matter what the rumors are or what anyone believes if bombardier or polaris made the tiger, or mabey aliens from another planet made them, or mabey the nazis in hiding after WW2 made them to get even with the japanese who surrendered to the allies after Hitlers defeat. It really doesnt matter, there will always be misinformation and speculation, until someone can actually speak with the founder or a high ranking member of Tiger management (not a welder-NO OFFENCE TO WELDERS-jeez you gotta watch everything you type on this effin board these days) nobody will ever know the true story-so thats the end of this thread, hope you all had fun reading it, it was the most interesting exchange Ive had on here in a while.

Now, whats faster, a Manco or a RUpp? both 1975 models with the oscillating gungulator and electric start??

[NICKG]

just so you know I am a parts purchaser for a car company......not a union one either so I have a perfect understanding of capitalism. I think that you misunderstand me or I am not clear, as I understand it, atk absorbed can am(as they did with cannondales inventory)but hey, I can be wrong. If you have a degree in buisness ...you should know some of these deals can be very odd look at rolls royce(the manufacturing is owned by vw but the brand by BMW, or range rover, owned buy ford but still built by bmw) The company I work for also makes motorcycles...and in fact they do manufacture a certain 650 engine under liscense, but only for the us in THAT motorcycle, no others . most of these agreements also have confidentiality clauses or limits. I understand what you are saying but, trust me, I have a better understanding of these buisnesses...I don't however know it all(and never claimed to) and I can only say what has been relayed to me others

[Trikeaholic]

That is interesting, for sure. I sell parts to an automotive supplier. Its interesting to see how a purchaser and a seller view the supply chain, isnt it! :beer

[86250RZ]

NICE 86250RZ, sure doesn't look like you factored in everything that you got over them, weight, power, and in some cases just experience. Now i'm still waiting for that list of mods they have. I sure hope they all weren't stock.

Who gives a shite on what I factored in, I didnt factor anything. Who ever said anything about that, I just stated my bike is 18yrs old thats all I needed to "factor in" and every quad out there had a pipe at least, I didnt go around asking everyone what they had done to there bike :rolleyes: All I know is my trike is 18yrs old and I blew away almost every 2002 up quad there, we trial raced almost 2 hours and we also race in a wide open field 150+yrds for atleast 2 hours, didnt matter where or how long a distance I still won most of the drags. All I was doing was telling a story about that weekend. why people like you have to come on here and act like morons and turn it in to something else is beyond me. I could care less if there quads weighed 500 pounds more than my trike, my trikes almost 20yrs old and the quads were 2002 up and they still dont impress me much considering im riding a dinosaur.

[atckowalski]

I have a Dirt Wheels from back in the day that has the article on the 500 Tiger. I will bring it , and other to Trikefest :TrikesOwn

[TimSr]

In response to the original post, I find the new 4 wheeled performance sport machines extremely inpressive, but you will be blind to all the improvements and advancements if the only way you ever guage the quality of a machine is by "how fast it goes" and what it does on the drag strip. They call them "All Terrain" for a reason and they are desingned for certain uses. Does anybody really believe that if Honda or Yamaha wanted to produce a brand new "drag strip machine" that they couldnt come up with something faster than our dinosaurs? The YFZ and the 450R were built as MX "race ready" machines and should be judged on that basis, but then we cant do that on a 3 wheeler site because the results would be rather embarassing for us in this kind of comparison. Its not a quad vs trike thing. The first time I rode rode Trike's Z400, then stock, it totally emabarassed my 86 TRX250R. On a drag strip, it probably would have been close, but in the rest of the world it wasnt even close. The stock YFZ I rode at Crow Canyon is a big step up from the Z400, and sorry to say, but Id have had no trouble at all thoroughly embarassing any trike with any rider with that YFZ on that track, and the quad wasnt at all even setup for me. I always thought I loved and appreciated trikes, but Ill never understand this idea that a person cannot do so, unless they talk trash about quads. To insist that new quads have no performance advancements over old trikes is to believe that if trikes were being made today, they would be no better than the old ones. Would a YTZ450 be no improvement over a YTZ250 or would it be the same old chassis with a new motor stuffed in it? Would an ATC450R offer nothing over a 350X or 250R or would they be the same old chassis with a new motor stuffed in it? I thought todays "dream trikes" would have been putting new quad technology in an all new 3 wheeled design. Im suggesting that handling, suspension, and 4 stroke technology would have drastically improved and evolved in new trikes as it has in new quads, but if you are one of those who continue to insist that quads have not improved and that all aspects of 1986 Trikes are still technologically superior to the new quads because of a few runs on a drag strip, then your visions of "what might have been" is limited to stamping out the same old trikes they did in the 80's. Quads have not yet surpassed trikes on the drag strip, but then, they are not trying to. Theyve put their engineering advances into making a machine that can go faster over ground that is not flat, straight, and smooth and they have been very successful.

[Troll 2]

:rolleyes: All I know is my trike is 18yrs old and I blew away almost every 2002 up quad there, we trial raced almost 2 hours and we also race in a wide open field 150+yrds for atleast 2 hours, didnt matter where or how long a distance I still won most of the drags. All I was doing was telling a story about that weekend. why people like you have to come on here and act like morons and turn it in to something else is beyond me. .

Great story, glad you shared it...................... :cool:

[84honda 200X]

wow after reading all this im so confused!!!???

[NICKG]

yea...we wandered a little

[85_ATC_200S]

Who gives a shite on what I factored in, I didnt factor anything. Who ever said anything about that, I just stated my bike is 18yrs old thats all I needed to "factor in" and every quad out there had a pipe at least, I didnt go around asking everyone what they had done to there bike :rolleyes: All I know is my trike is 18yrs old and I blew away almost every 2002 up quad there, we trial raced almost 2 hours and we also race in a wide open field 150+yrds for atleast 2 hours, didnt matter where or how long a distance I still won most of the drags. All I was doing was telling a story about that weekend. why people like you have to come on here and act like morons and turn it in to something else is beyond me. I could care less if there quads weighed 500 pounds more than my trike, my trikes almost 20yrs old and the quads were 2002 up and they still dont impress me much considering im riding a dinosaur.
Doesn't matter how old your trike is if it's taken care of it's like new. And i'm just telling you that there was more to your winning than what you said. Theres alot to be thought of when it comes to that stuff. I didn't meant to sound like an ass or anything like that, it just flamed me a bit. I oppoligize for acting like a 2 year old.