1984 200x LED conversion

[newc14]

Simple enough, I'm looking to convert my 200x headlight to LED, but I have some major knowledge gaps. I've read some of the other threads discussing this but they tended to be a couple years old and mostly were 185/200s which have floating grounds or other trikes that are more easily converted to DC.

Some points of clarity:

I don't want a light bar or pod, I would like to get a H4/9003 LED bulb and pop it into the stock housing
It doesn't need to be perfect but it does need to work. I.E. I don't care if it flickers a little at low RPM but I do want to make sure nothing is going to burn up
I want to keep it running off the factory light switch with high/low on/off functionality.

Originally I didn't realize the power going to the headlight was AC, I don't know why this surprised me; I've built 3 of these bikes from the ground up and there's clearly no rectifier/regulator. So being a dummy I just popped in a H4 motorcycle LED bulb and it worked! ....for about 1 min, then started smoking. So after doing more research and reading some of the posts on this subject (including those from the very knowledgeable ATC King), I have some questions.

Why does floating/integrated ground matter? It's been mentioned, but I didn't see an explanation of what it affects. I would really prefer not to yank out the stator and mess with soldering.

Can I just wire in a small 2 wire regulator/rectifier like this just before the light switch?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFDN189N/?coliid=I1O683NSFK3JI8&colid=3IZZ0J4NPEMHN&psc=1&ref_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it

If I got a LED bulb rated for a higher wattage would I be able to wire in a simple converter like this gentleman? My concern when watching this was the range of voltage from idle to WOT, but he doesn't seem to have an issue as he says he's a year on and no issues. But again, he's using pods not a single bulb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLdcH8M9-2A


If the result is that in order to do this without burning up stator/light coil/bulbs means I have to modify the stator, install reg/rec, and a capacitor I'll probably just run the stock light, but it really seems like there should be a simpler solution.

Thanks in advance

[HondaRidr]

I can't answer your questions but I am also curious what floating the ground does.

[ATC King]

So after doing more research and reading some of the posts on this subject (including those from the very knowledgeable ATC King), I have some questions.


Thank you, I appreciate that, but ps2fixer had good input too. I think he's busy with an actual business, I just do this for a hobby. I bought a wiring harness from him and it was top notch and less expensive than if I built it myself. It's also by no means something that other people haven't done, they just aren't posting on here.

I appreciate your well structured and researched post. That helps a lot.


On a modification like this, it's a pick two type of deal. Cheap, Easy, Dependable, pick two and the other is the compromise you're left with.


The stock lighting works as intended and is dependable with a very simple system. The issues now is most of the reflectors are dull, not like new, so even a new bulb won't shine a bright as when they left the showroom floor. It's possible to separate the lens from the reflector and refurbish that, but it's a lot of work and the cost may be entry level LED lighting.

If you truly ride at night and depend on a quality light, I suggest doing the work to build a quality system. For occasional night use, there are battery powered, rechargeable, LED lights that surpass stock, but on high power, riding time will be limited to a couple hours. Many racers mount those to their helmets (on the chin bar) and they can be handlebar mounted. The helmet mounts are for directional control; light where the rider looks. Mountain bike racers use those because bicycles don't have a charging system and bar mounted lights get shaky.

For a cost reference, I have about $400 in my commuter/touring bicycle light system. I use a Shimano dynamo front hub (built into the wheel) and German headlight/taillight. I depended on good light just as someone with car because that's what I rode to work, for years, and have thousands of miles on the system. A hub dynamo doesn't work well on a mountain bike because of the lower speeds, especially while ascending steep hills. Wheel diameter and speed plays a major role on how effective a hub dynamo is.

To that, I roll my eyes at people trying to cheap out on lights their safety depends on. ATV racers experience much higher speeds and their light systems are going to cost more than that. For a recreational rider, expect to spend as much as my bicycle system and more for quality lighting. It can be less, but plan for at least a few hundred $$ if doing all the work yourself. If that's not in the budget, stay stock. It's not just about how bright a hotspot is, it's about the beam quality. Bright, long, AND wide.

Back in the day, when I started riding dirt bikes, preadolescence, I had a dirt bike with no lights and would strap a cheap flashlight to the bars and preferred a full moon to ride under. Sometimes I'd ride under a full moon with no lights. I don't heal as fast anymore and won't do that unless pressed, like when already out and something fails. That was in areas with little to no traffic, so my eyes adjusted enough it wasn't that bad, but I also wasn't riding fast.

Experience and older age has me focusing more on quality lighting. Don't get me wrong, my eyesight isn't bad, I just appreciate the lower strain of having not to concentrate so much with poor lighting. it makes night riding more enjoyable and less strenuous.



Onto your dilemma.

The easiest and best way to add quality LED lighting to your trike is to float the ground. It's really simple, remove the lighting coil, clip the grounded wire, solder a wire to it and run it through the rubber grommet with the others. The main issue is the old, hard, rubber stator grommet. Use and Exacto handle and small drill bit if needed and silicone it to prevent an oil leak, or replace the grommet with a new one. After that, you're free to add a reg/rec, capacitor/battery and the LED of your choosing. You'll have a dependable system and can even add a USB charge port for a phone.

If you go that route, I'll try and help to walk you through it.


The video you linked, the guy didn't even add a voltage regulator and is a half-wave setup. Basically, it's a typical lawn mower setup, inefficient and not something I'd hook a high quality LED to. He went cheap and easy, not dependable. At least a lawn mower has a battery, so it's somewhat buffered. I certainly wouldn't put a $200+ LED on it. I run a WalMart LED pod on one of our mowers, but it's seldom used. That'll probably last for years, but it's just around the house if it fails.

I've had plenty of cheap LED pods fail in short order and experience with cheap and acceptable quality LEDs on log trucks, which is an extreme use. The cheap ones fail within a year. Maybe not completely, but several of the individual LEDs go out. Backing into a set at dark is difficult enough, with a turd of an LED, it just about requires a spotter on the CB. I've got a hand-held CB I used to talk with the loader operators when I'm out of the truck just for situations like that.

If you want to get cheap and dirty, you can use the frame for AC to DC conversion, but nothing can be grounded to the frame. All grounds will have to go to the battery/capacitor. The stator is left alone and the normal hot wire goes to the reg/rec then the previously ground. The frame is part of the live circuit. I can walk you through that too. Even some of the sellers of DC kits give that option but it's not optimal.

There are multiple ways to achieve your goal but floating the ground is the easiest and most dependable way.

I'll try to help you with whatever you choose.

[ATC King]

I thought about it a bit more and since the 200X headlight accepts an H4, you could upgrade just the bulb and add a voltage regulator. I covered that here: https://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/192661-Honda-ATC-Headlight-Upgrade-185-amp-200-Models

The wiring wouldn't be the same but just a simple. The VR would just go in line with the 'hot' wire before the light.

The PIAA bulb won't set the night on fire, but it's a small upgrade the keeps everything simple with only adding a VR. They're expensive bulbs, in the sense of bulb prices, so when it's used up or gets broken, the replacement cost stings a bit. They're really tough bulbs, just make 100% certain not to handle the glass section with bare hands.The oils have a good chance of cracking the bulb when it gets hot, which hasn't happened to me and that's a general headlight bulb precaution anyway.

[newc14]

Ah yes, the classic Mechanics Triangle: Good, Fast, Cheap; pick two. Thank you for the comprehensive reply, that's cleared up a lot of things.

I typically ride during the day and all of the race series I do is during daylight hours. The primary reason for lighting is for the few occasions where we're out riding a little later than expected and it gets dark on us (it's easy to misjudge how much light is left in the PNW mountains) so the number of "on hours" will be relatively low, and I always keep a flashlight backup with me. My main concern with durability was with the OE trike parts. Most of the H4/9003 LED bulbs are $30-80 for a set of 2, so it's not the end of the world if one goes out, but blowing one every time I run the lights for more than an hour isn't great.

So to check my understanding: the main problem with the "lawnmower setup" on the trike is the unregulated voltage. It works, but it wears the LED components more heavily and will eventually lead to premature failure compared to regulated voltage, even if that takes a few years, correct?

It sounds like either option I go with a battery/capacitor is going to be necessary. Can you explain why? I understand the purpose in terms of the circuit acting as an "accumulator", providing an additional bank of voltage to draw on at low RPM and additional voltage tempering. It's absolutely optimal, but is it necessary? Why is it unadvisable to simply wire a small two wire reg/rec into the system right before the light? Theoretically it should still provide DC in a more tempered range, even if it wouldn't be as smooth as if it had a battery, it should still be better than using a simple converter.

From your description I will probably float the ground, it seems like the best balance of the triangle. That being said, can you explain a little more about using the frame for AC/DC conversion? How does the frame become part of the circuit?

Thanks again

EDIT: Just saw your additional reply and that answers my question. That's what I was thinking I'd like to do (replace bulb with H4/9003), but I wanted to check with those more experienced to ensure it would work and not damage anything, and here it is! I'll follow your set up, but I might also try out a couple other bulb options and post results just for people looking to do this in the future. And ditto on the keeping the bulbs clean, I've done enough light changes I have special cotton gloves I keep just for replacing bulbs. Thanks so much!

[ATC King]

The lawnmower or, half-wave setup is dirty power and not good for electronics, plus the system looses efficiency.

Electric start kits for the 350X back then had a half-wave setup, simply because it was easier and less expensive, which I think was because that trike was set up like the 200X, which would require a stator mod or replacement to get full wave. That kit was already expensive enough.

A battery or capacitor is like you already understand, a reservoir of readily available energy. What it all comes down to is modern electronics, like in LED lights, aren't happy with dirty power and voltage fluctuations. The better quality the LED, the more tolerant it'll be but still has limits.

For actual, real deal specs, I don't trust any of the Amazon/Ebay listings. Those things are usually way, way off. I look at name brand and their company website. Some will function on a DC voltage range of 9-24, and some even list as being AC compatable, but that's still got to be voltage regulated because the 200X system, without bulbs or simply not having the lights on is probably 30vac or above @4,000rpm or more. That's a guess, the electrical system specs are listed in the repair manual. It's desinged to stay within range by using the headlight/taillight as the resistance, which is above what a LED would be which means a LED is going to be above specified voltage with a regulator.


PIAA has a vibration resistant H4 bulb, but I think it's 66/55 watts. Probably too much for the 200X. I've used those bulbs for years and haven't had one quit yet. I think I've mentioned in some other thread that a PIAA on a bike that was crashed was fine and lasted for a while longer even though I had to replace the actual headlight because it was broken in the crash.

I forget some of the things I've posted because they're done, haven't given me any more problems, and I haven't had to touch them since. It'd be nice if these people posting video on YT would do a follow up a year later, after actually putting some hours on the machine, not it still works but has only been sitting in the shop for the past six months or longer.

It's like the capacitor thing, which I tried some older style caps, which didn't work out for one reason or another. I remember one got a hole punched in it, which was my doing. I also didn't use one rated for a high enough voltage, again, my learning curve. After settling on a super or ultra cap I haven't had any more problems. Caps do have a high self discharge rate but one I'm using will still have over 11 volts after a month of no use. That's of no consequence though because it's not for electric start and will charge right back up in a minute of running. I just didn't want to use a battery, I already have enough to keep maintained.

Using a capacitor instead of a battery on a bike or quad isn't new by any stretch. I think even back in the 70's-80's there were battery replacement 'kits' for enduro bikes people wanted to ditch the battery on but still keep all the street legal lights working. One has to remember many of those were kick start only and lead batteries were the only available ones back then. Replacing the battery with a cap was a weight savings.

Those old caps would have never started and e-start engine. New super caps will though, as long as they're large enough. You only get a few stabs at starting though, until the cap is dead. They wont crank, and crank, and crank, like a battery and still rely on a tiny battery to recharge them, if using for powersports or automotive engine starting.


I did look at the landscape converter in that video. I didn't see any mention of voltage regulation on the Amazon page and there's no need for it to if used for the application it was intended, which is connected to an already regulated 12vac power supply. Running the system down to 9vdc, with a load, probably isn't too kind to that converter. Too low of working voltage can burn electronics up just like too high. Which is another reason to use a battery. What I didn't see in the video was him reving the engine with the lights on and monitoring the voltage.



As for the quick and dirty way to convert to DC by using the frame, that's also not new, it's just inconvenient because now all grounds must be made to the battery, which means a little more wire and clutter to deal with. It's not doing anything the trike isn't already, it's just removing all the lighting grounds from the frame, connecting a regulator/rectifier between the previous hot and attaching the other voltage input to the frame, the running the ground from the reg/rec to the battery along with all the other lighting grounds. have to be certain the reg/rec body isn't the ground or it'll have to be isolated somehow, it can't be bolted to the frame.

The engine kill switch is left attached to the frame and all ignition parts left as they are. It works but I wouldn't say it's a whole lot easier than modifying the stator to have a floating ground, it just negates the need to drain oil ,replace gaskets, and solder one wire and hope to be able to shove it through a 30yo rubber plug with the rest of them.

It's kind of like old mopeds, true to the name, mopeds. They often only had an AC system, but everything was AC. The headlight and taillight of course, easy, but the turn signals and horn too. That takes specific AC flashers and horns, DC won't work. You can imagine those didn't work too well at idle, but they had 50cc two cycle engine that turn more RPM than a four cycle, so at anything above idle everything worked good enough. Having to work on those is a pain, it really hertz.


I've been meaning to get better night pictures of the light mods I've done, compared to stock, but haven't yet. Set the camera to manual and have everything set up for distance. The ones in my older thread aren't really a good comparison.

There's always new products out there I haven't seen or heard of, but at the end of the day, floating the ground just makes life easier and then you'll be able to add any electrical accessory just like on any other vehicle. I didn't have much need for a battery/capacitor on a 185/200 before, but now that I can have a light on without the engine running, that function gets used more than I thought. Of course, being able to charge a phone is nice too, and can do that without the engine running.

That said, the PIAA upgrade is good and that's not a trike I ride much, so it's very practical for that application. Minimum time and money and still stock looking, with only a small VR added to the existing wiring.

I think I covered everything from your last post. You've already done the research and know about what you want and I'm glad I can help.

[newc14]

Thanks so much for lending your time and experience to this post, I really appreciate it. Like you mentioned, I know lots of people HAVE done these type of mods, but the documentation is sparse, and follow up information after long term use is even more sporadic. I think I'll start with the PIAA HS1 set up for now and plan to float the ground the next time I need/decide to pull the engine. The benefit of having phone charging while off road is definitely a plus. As a side note I found this: combined with the adjustable AC regulator it might be another viable option to provide clean DC power to an LED without messing with the stator https://www.cyclopsadventuresports.com/Rectifier-for-LED-Light-Module_p_85.html Not what I'm going to do right now, but something someone could try at some point

[ATC King]

The adjustable VR from TrailTech is pretty nice when using a conventional bulb because it can be run with stock or ones that'll handle a little more power.

If the stock lights are still on there and working, would you mind getting a voltage reading with them on an the engine reved until max voltage. I don't know if I've done it or where I put the info if I did. It's always nice to have a baseline.


It'd be nice if that Cyclops product had some specs listed, but I did notice they advertise it as compatible with only their LED bulbs, for H4 conversions and the like. It does have the three terminal headlight type connectors, so maybe that's all it's intended for. I think for their bulb and that piece, it's well over $100. Even not counting the bulb, that piece is gonna be about $50 by the time it reaches the door, which would be fine if that's all someone would stop at, but this gets a bit addictive and just about nothing less than a modern full DC system is the finish point. These only have single phase capability though, so they'll never have close to the power of a three phase system, especially at idle.

I'm guessing the Cyclops piece is doing about like the dirty way of not floating the ground and just piggybacking an isolated DC system onto the AC one. It's probably got some type of capacitors included, but the light will probably still flicker at idle if there's none included in it's circuitry. I know I found a lower power output limit for idle, maybe something like 20-25 watts before the system couldn't keep up, setup for DC. I may have posted that in one of my threads. A lot of the more powerful LEDs still consume more than that. Nobody want's a stock brightness replacement just because it uses less power, they want to max out the power budget while throwing a lot more light. That's where a separate high and low LED are nice. Use low for tootling around so it won't discharge the battery/cap, then kick on high when staying above idle.


I about forgot, but something about that Cyclops piece is packaging, as in it's another thing to attached somewhere where there isn't much space to do so. It'll have to be on the outside of the headlight housing. I've used HID lights that have a part like that and it's more wire and parts kind of getting in the way in a tight space up front. If it was on a touring motorcycle or car, sure, there's more space, but on dirt bikes and trikes it's a bit of clutter sticking out. I prefer to package the bulk of the system under the rear bodywork.

[newc14]

I've got this weekend set up as a maintenance weekend, will throw a multimeter on it and post results.

I had similar thoughts about the Cyclops, though I suspect it would likely work with any H4 bulb not just their proprietary $110 one. But it's size would definitely take up a lot of space inside the headlight housing. I might pick one up just to test it and report about it's functionality, but like you said at a certain point the cost/benefit just makes converting the system to DC the better way to go. Will check back in after this weekend with some more information