Long time no post

[ps2fixer]

Been a while since I popped on here since I've switched my business over more to the demo derby harness side of things. My mind is always going though and I've thought of some kind of interesting idea's/concepts. These are just ideas, but would be interesting if anyone can find faults with the logic or disadvantages.

First thing up, clearly harnesses and CDI's and most electrical on these machines are starting to really fail a lot more, capacitors for example normally have a life span of around 20 years for a good quality brand and these machines are over 30 years old. The ignition tech has advanced a lot since the 80's for the automotive world, for for some reason it seems atv's haven't really advanced in the same way for some reason. Pretty much the idea that's been bouncing around in my head is a small computer that runs off the lighting coil of the stator, clearly it would need to rectify the power, regulate the voltage, etc for the computer, but should be very doable. With a custom computer would in theory mean ignition timing could be tunable too for those that are into racing or high performance. The output/coil setup I think would make the most sense to use an automotive "smart coil", basically it has +12v and ground ran to it and there's a trigger signal from the computer to tell it to spark, dwell time is generally handled by the "smart coil" so it makes the coding and tuning a bit simpler. Of course that 12v would need to come from the computer's power supply. Side benefit of updating the computer/coil design is upgrading most of the connectors involved on the machine to modern sealed connectors.

Working off this concept, the idea for lighting could in theory run off the computer's 12v power as well, but would require some pretty chunky capacitors and a heavier duty power supply, probably best to make it separate so if there's a short the ignition system can still function (ideally).

The stock harness has several splices in them, and more modern harnesses are designed with no splices in them whenever possible to reduce production costs, clearly I'd want to do similar if I went down this route, the splice work is one of the worst parts about building a harness.

Anyway, no guarantee I'm going to make anything like this, but I think it's an interesting concept. It's possible to get real fancy with a computer involved, like having an LCD display to give rpm data, maybe a GPS sensor for MPH (there's MPH gauges out there that does this independently too). Hours of run time could be a metric tracked as well. My concept for the tuning would be done over a wireless connection, likely Bluetooth to a cellphone.

Of course things could be taken a step farther too, add a temp sensor, injector in the intake (carb could act as the throttle plate I'd think), TPS would be useful, but a MAP sensor could probably be used to be a little easier to hook up with out as much of a custom intake setup. Basically an EFI system, of course it would need to be tunable and systems exist out there to pull this off, just not plug and play that I'm aware of. Of course the "crank sensor" would be the pulse generator, so it would be roughly early 90's tech for EFI on the automotive side of things besides the mid 2000's+ style ignition coil.

Anyway, figured this could spark some interesting conversation. I plan to do similar for the demo derby world, slowly working my way through computers and electronics to learn this stuff. It's really a huge project for one person, but it should be possible to pull off as long as I have the time and funds to dedicate to the projects. Clearly if I did build something like this, the kit wouldn't be exactly cheap, but the price of 3 wheelers have gone nuts so there's a potential for a market interesting in something like this.

If I'm thinking right, the only stock connectors used would be the stator's lighting coil wires, tail light, head light, and possibly the handle bar controls, but with a completely custom setup that could be swapped out fairly easily to something more modern since it wouldn't be quite so analog/direct, just finding modern controls with out starter buttons or shift buttons seems to be somewhat uncommon.

Anyway, comment away =).

[big specht]

As for the atc’s the finding space on most bikes would be a issue and nothing in the atc world has EFI so no tps ability’s even tho I think some times it would be nice. But the biggest thing for me that would help the HP junky’s is a cdi that has the ability to have the timing advance/retard adjustable like the msd box’s in the automotive world. I think there is some company’s selling them for some of the dirt bikes/ dual sport bikes but I don’t think they are adjustable buy the customer just have a custom timing map set in them.

[ATC King]

There's already a couple programmable ignition choices out there for less than $300. I've got two different ones.

The one on my 200ES is programmable by a two button interface. It's a bit clunky to work and I always have to refer to the instructions to figure it out. I bought it used and it's been problem free for several years now. Works fine with the stock coil.

It functions without additional boxes on the 200ES because there's a 12vdc power supply and a coil powered ignition. For just a coil trigger it needs a box that rectifies and regulates 12vdc. The manufacturer sells those and I have one but haven't used it. For engines with only 12vdc and no AC ignition coil, it needs a box for that, which I also have but haven't used. I have the extra boxes in case I put it on something else.

The one on my dual sport bike is programmable via free software. It runs on 12vdc only but is triggered by the pulse coil. That manufacturer does sell ignitions for dirt bikes without 12vdc. I haven't used those.


I know the one on my bike has dual maps and I think the one on my 200ES does. They both have programmable rev limiters and can operate a dual or single fire, waste spark or not. The one on my trike has a built in, rudimentary, two digit tach and there's a tach output on the bike ignition. The trike one has some feature called 'pops and bangs' that supposed to do something goofy like make those exhaust farts. I don't know, don't care, and don't bother with that function. There's other features I'm probably forgetting.

Both are European made. Their websites may be difficult to understand with a translator and the instructions kinda the same, but both ignitions have been problem free.

I think someone here tried one of the MSD single cylinder ignitions and it didn't work out. Them, Holley, Accel, Mallory, any of that domestic stuff seems like junk anymore, likely because they're all owned by some large company who's office is filled with soft hands.

I have successfully run an ATC on a GM HEI module. The 185/200 engines with the mechanical advance can have the ignition run with all sorts of things.

As for FI on an ATC, I don't think, with the 250ES/SX as exception, have a robust enough charging system. Even then, it may have to be a low pressure system like TBI. Other than the ability of FI to constantly adjust (with enough sensors) to suit the conditions, I don't see a worthwhile benefit if the cost is too high. It's not going to add much/any power over a well tuned carb, but will add complexity and failure points. On new vehicles with FI, complexity and failure isn't really a issue, but on a retrofit...gotta make it idiot proof or it'll be a real headache for whoever sells them.

If you haven't already run across a small engine FI kit yet: https://ecotrons.com/small_engine_fuel_injection_kit/

[MrConcdid]

Hey PS2Fixer, glad your back.
I sent someone to you 2 days ago looking for a harness for there atc.

How about a kit that adds a lighting coil to a predator 212 engine, all the kids run them now and there do not have a lighting circuit.
also I had a guy ask about an adjustable cdi (a split 6 pin version), he wanted to unpin his factory plug and use a modern programable cdi for a 350x.
I told him to talk to you, that was not in my wheelhouse.

Did you ever finish that sx/200x build?
MrC.

[ps2fixer]

Dang I typed replies to the comments above but when hitting reply with quote on the other posts, it took away my message so it didn't combine everything together.


Hey PS2Fixer, glad your back.
I sent someone to you 2 days ago looking for a harness for there atc.

How about a kit that adds a lighting coil to a predator 212 engine, all the kids run them now and there do not have a lighting circuit.
also I had a guy ask about an adjustable cdi (a split 6 pin version), he wanted to unpin his factory plug and use a modern programable cdi for a 350x.
I told him to talk to you, that was not in my wheelhouse.

Did you ever finish that sx/200x build?
MrC.

I didn't fully leave, but wasn't really too active on the site unless an old thread was responded to where I got an email lol.

I've looked into stators a little in the past, a company that normally produces new stators would be better suited for the job though, there's machines out there that wrap them with wire and are way faster and cheaper than doing it by hand, but those machines I'm sure are expensive, like $50k-100k+ expensive.

The programmable CDI would depend on what it's designed for, like the capacitor inside needs to be sized to match the rest of the system or spark quality, max rpm, etc can be effected. Like a 400EX CDI on my 350x works great at low rpm, but at high rpm it hits a point that the capacitor must be too large so it takes too long to charge with the lower voltage/output exciter coil on my 350x, it feels real similar to hitting a rev limiter, but it's way lower rpm than the stock CDI. Also some CDI's are DC based, if that's the case then he'd need to wire up a half wave rectifier (full wave wouldn't work, ground conflict) and run a small battery to power it. Basically the Goki style harness has a diode in it for the half wave rectifier, stock AC voltage regulator is what regulates the voltage.

The 250sx/350D machine I'm still lacking a front end for, prices went nuts and haven't found a good one to use yet, haven't looked super hard either so that doesn't help lol. My dad has a lathe now but it's not hooked up yet so I should be able to machine the crank to convert it to manual clutch in theory.







I guess something I kind of missed in the orig post was if I designed something, it would make the most sense to design it so it works on as many models as possible, so one CDI per model wouldn't work too well for me since dev and production costs would be pretty high, longer to recoup on initial investment and such. Of course the system should work fine with newer atv's as well but I might not have a harness designed for them is all. The ignition upgrade I suspect should be a nice option, but the secondary thing is a brand new harness. Besides the stator hook ups being a bit different per model, the rest if the ignition section of the harness could be somewhat standardized to maybe just a couple or a few layouts to cover most machines. Honda intentionally made the stock harnesses different quite often it seems like since every 1-2 years they have to change connectors around or a wire color, etc, but it didn't have to be that way in my opinion.

Another benefit of the more modern automotive setup is it's possible for the computer to have diag modes, like this video it could do like a 1000 rpm signal to the coil to validate spark w\o even cranking the engine. It could do something similar for an injector but clearly would want it at a lower rpm to not flood the engine. It could give an output for the crank signal (pulse generator), things like that. Also if it's tied to a cellphone, then the internet can be tied to it through an app and have people share/sell "tunes" for different machines as well. All of this is quite a bit more complex to do with the stock designed equipment and pretty much requires you to crank the engine to test the ignition system parts besides some basic ohm testing.

I haven't checked out the newest of the new atv's, but I'm guessing they are still using a CDI style ignition

Note when he brings out the distributor, that looks like a points style distributor, dwell time was physically adjusted on those, a bit newer like late 80's/early 90's they switched to ignition modules (for GM, Toyota and other Jap companies just drove the ignition parts directly from the ECU, as the saying goes, they are like 10 years ahead of GM in electronics) which were basically an analog device to pick the dwell time and ignition timing using resisters, capacitors, etc, somewhat similar to how our CDI's function but with a more basic output signal that's more of a digital type of signal (on/off with a dwell time vs high voltage peak that needs enough energy to saturate the coil so it's also dwell time but it changes with rpm and voltage, very analog to say it simply).

Btw, this video gets pretty technical on the electronics side of things a bit, the mosfets/transisters he's talking about is basically a solid state switch sort of like a relay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyZVSL5F26I

[ps2fixer]

As for the atc’s the finding space on most bikes would be a issue and nothing in the atc world has EFI so no tps ability’s even tho I think some times it would be nice. But the biggest thing for me that would help the HP junky’s is a cdi that has the ability to have the timing advance/retard adjustable like the msd box’s in the automotive world. I think there is some company’s selling them for some of the dirt bikes/ dual sport bikes but I don’t think they are adjustable buy the customer just have a custom timing map set in them.

I don't think space is too bad of an issue, lots of room on the frame normally, modern electronics can be pretty small. Not like we need to strap a desktop sized computer to the machine.

CDI's are basically an analog device, so balancing it with the exciter coil, ignition coil, and get the right ignition timing is probably not super easy. Automotive side of things it's simple 12v DC and instead of a high voltage output to the ignition coil they use a low voltage for a longer time to charge the coil up, but the cut off time I think is much more exact (this is dwell time in the auto world).

My concept isn't just to replace the CDI, but also give an option for a brand new harness, modern connectors so it should last as long or longer than OEM, if a rectifier/regulator was part of the design, LED lights even on machines that normally are AC only could be possible then too. A battery might be needed to keep costs down though for the massive capacitor needed to make smooth output power for the bigger draw items. I do think having the ability to change the ignition timing could be a good thing though. Like for the high compression built engines running 100-110 octane fuel needs a different ignition timing than a stock engine running 87 octane. Switching to other types of fuels like meth changes the timing a lot as well. I would expect the OEM timing is pretty conservative for longevity and different grades of fuel per gas station, year old gas, etc. Can't push things too much with out feedback unless you're willing to risk the engine damage from going a little too far.

[ps2fixer]

There's already a couple programmable ignition choices out there for less than $300. I've got two different ones.

The one on my 200ES is programmable by a two button interface. It's a bit clunky to work and I always have to refer to the instructions to figure it out. I bought it used and it's been problem free for several years now. Works fine with the stock coil.

It functions without additional boxes on the 200ES because there's a 12vdc power supply and a coil powered ignition. For just a coil trigger it needs a box that rectifies and regulates 12vdc. The manufacturer sells those and I have one but haven't used it. For engines with only 12vdc and no AC ignition coil, it needs a box for that, which I also have but haven't used. I have the extra boxes in case I put it on something else.

The one on my dual sport bike is programmable via free software. It runs on 12vdc only but is triggered by the pulse coil. That manufacturer does sell ignitions for dirt bikes without 12vdc. I haven't used those.


I know the one on my bike has dual maps and I think the one on my 200ES does. They both have programmable rev limiters and can operate a dual or single fire, waste spark or not. The one on my trike has a built in, rudimentary, two digit tach and there's a tach output on the bike ignition. The trike one has some feature called 'pops and bangs' that supposed to do something goofy like make those exhaust farts. I don't know, don't care, and don't bother with that function. There's other features I'm probably forgetting.

Both are European made. Their websites may be difficult to understand with a translator and the instructions kinda the same, but both ignitions have been problem free.

I think someone here tried one of the MSD single cylinder ignitions and it didn't work out. Them, Holley, Accel, Mallory, any of that domestic stuff seems like junk anymore, likely because they're all owned by some large company who's office is filled with soft hands.

I have successfully run an ATC on a GM HEI module. The 185/200 engines with the mechanical advance can have the ignition run with all sorts of things.

As for FI on an ATC, I don't think, with the 250ES/SX as exception, have a robust enough charging system. Even then, it may have to be a low pressure system like TBI. Other than the ability of FI to constantly adjust (with enough sensors) to suit the conditions, I don't see a worthwhile benefit if the cost is too high. It's not going to add much/any power over a well tuned carb, but will add complexity and failure points. On new vehicles with FI, complexity and failure isn't really a issue, but on a retrofit...gotta make it idiot proof or it'll be a real headache for whoever sells them.

If you haven't already run across a small engine FI kit yet: https://ecotrons.com/small_engine_fuel_injection_kit/

Yea, I've seen there's some programmable CDI's that exist, but they stick with the CDI design and you basically have to adapt the atc's harness to the CDI. What I'm talking about is a whole harness replacement with modern electronics, in theory could make a regulator/rectifier part of the design too for LED lighting. Less splices in the harness would make it a lot easier to build at some scale.

The dual sport bike's CDI sounds interesting.

Retrofitting modules from other engines probably doesn't really reflect on the quality of the orig brand, the actual design might be wildly different from what would work on the atc's. Like just the pulse generator signal on it's own, maybe the automotive one functions on a negative pulse, while the Honda one is a positive pulse, wiring up the pulse generator backwards would fix that problem but it's a simple thing that could be different. The ignition module you had work likely works better with the atc's with the mechanical advancement because the ignition module is probably not advancing the timing much if at all from base timing. Just for an example, if it's a module for a 4cyl, it will see 1/4 the rpm as what the atc engine is running at, so 1000 rpm on the atv engine would make the module see 250 rpm.

With more sensors, the ignition timing could be pushed more, it's not only RPM that determines how much advancement you can go, but also the load on the engine, temp of the engine/intake air, compression ratio of the engine, fuel used, etc.

Yea, the retrofit logic probably would be less reliable, but if I did build a computer, it could make diag work a lot easier too. I run into so many threads online about people with no spark. It wouldn't be too hard to have it where you can make the computer send a 1000 rpm ignition signal out and check that you're getting output to the ignition coil with out having to crank the engine. Similar could be done for injectors but it would probably have to be a lower rpm and not too much fuel injected so it doesn't flood the engine. Also an EFI system doesn't draw that much power overall, but that also depends on processor used and such too. The micro processor I've been using is max draw around 100-200ma, injectors can run around 2-6 amps for a short pulse of time, ignition coils can be 10-30 amp again for a short amount of time (normally around 4ms or 4/1000th of a sec). I haven't done the math, but in theory the ignition system could probably have stable voltage with a large enough capacitor. Of course a battery would be most ideal. I suspect the continuous average draw for a single cylinder EFI system should be roughly in the ball park of 5-10w. Clearly on machines with no regulator, that means lighting draw needs to be cut down, but I suspect most people that would be wanting something like this would also be looking to switch to LED lighting.

That is one down side with this type of design though. A bad battery with an internal short could make it so it won't run. A short on the lighting circuit could bring the voltage low enough to effect the computer's readings. There's ways to design around the second problem, but that would require current limiting ability for the computer on the lighting circuit so it can't overload the computer or the alternator. A shorted battery I guess would fall in that category as well, so if it was designed to be able to run directly off the alternator's power, with current limiting and correctly placed diodes, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

One of the OEM design issues that could cause problems is the internally grounded stators like the 350x, 200x, 250r, etc uses. A full wave rectifier wouldn't work correctly since there's a ground conflict (before and after it). I haven't through about if there's a way to solve that issue though, I suspect it should be possible though, bare min I know a half wave rectifier (a single diode) would work, but you loose half of the power output too.

[Dirtcrasher]

Glad to see you, I have some projects coming up I need to talk to you about. Mainly the correct quality connectors etc, you probably already helped me in and old PM. Hope all is good...

[ATC King]

What I'm talking about is a whole harness replacement with modern electronics, in theory could make a regulator/rectifier part of the design too for LED lighting.

I know I'm in for something like that. Having some upgraded electronics on the ATC makes them a bit more useful and capable.

I mean, just about everyone has a cell phone but how many trikes have a USB charge port? A couple of mine do...game changer. Mount that dude to the bars, plug it in, and turn on the GPS speedo app without worrying about it draining the phone battery during a long ride. Keep up with distance traveled and know about how far it'll go on a tank of gas. There's all kinds of useful phone apps for ATC/ATV riding but if it can't be charged it's not much use for really getting out there on a long ride.

That phone is already a high tech gauge cluster. Add a harness already built to include a few sensors and tie those to a Bluetooth device then it's relatively affordable gauge system because the really expensive bit (the phone) the trike owner already has.

Glad you're back at it.

[ps2fixer]

Glad to see you, I have some projects coming up I need to talk to you about. Mainly the correct quality connectors etc, you probably already helped me in and old PM. Hope all is good...

Nice to see a lot of old faces are still hanging around here. Most of the connectors for these 3 wheelers are listed on https://cycleterminal.com/ - remember to get the OEM style crimpers and also buy extra terminals.

I've been dreaming of something like this for a while, finally found one that seems to have good documentation and the price isn't completely out of this world.... It's still like $1600 + $300-400 per die (terminal type, sometimes more than one per terminal type for different sized wire). They have a hand crimper to start off with, then the battery powered on, and for all out manufacturing, they have a bench top pneumatic one that runs around $5k. They all generally take the same dies, so should be a solid ecosystem to invest into. Not sure how long my shoulders can hold up to crimping terminals, already been doing it for 10 years. Might eventually get to the point of hiring someone to help, so I wouldn't want to put someone in the line of work that's going to wear their body out. As the saying goes, takes money to make money. I'm finally seeing some growth in the new market so I'm able to finally invest in scaling up instead of just trying to make more products all the time. Hopefully in 10 years, someone else will be building all of the harnesses for me and I can focus on R&D, design, electronics, etc, all of the "fun" stuff I enjoy that it seems like most other people don't like lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va1Jo7LXBmI

Here's the table top style one, big money though lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiXLeQSNSOM

[ps2fixer]

I know I'm in for something like that. Having some upgraded electronics on the ATC makes them a bit more useful and capable.

I mean, just about everyone has a cell phone but how many trikes have a USB charge port? A couple of mine do...game changer. Mount that dude to the bars, plug it in, and turn on the GPS speedo app without worrying about it draining the phone battery during a long ride. Keep up with distance traveled and know about how far it'll go on a tank of gas. There's all kinds of useful phone apps for ATC/ATV riding but if it can't be charged it's not much use for really getting out there on a long ride.

That phone is already a high tech gauge cluster. Add a harness already built to include a few sensors and tie those to a Bluetooth device then it's relatively affordable gauge system because the really expensive bit (the phone) the trike owner already has.

Glad you're back at it.

Yea, gauge cluster app would be part of the design. In app tuning (aka live tuning) would make sense too. Even if it just gave some basic rpm data and such, it could help with knowing when to shift and such if the display updates fast enough to be useful.

USB style charge is 100% huge on any atv, back in like 2015 at trike fest I was driving around with a "normal" GPS on my 250ES, was so nice to see the trails on the screen (historic of where I've been) and always know a solid path back to camp. It was an old GPS so it didn't display the current speed like newer ones do, but it was like $20 used lol. All I did was replace the 12v aux connector with an automotive type one, add the usb charger and plug everything together. Had a fancy holder for the GPS designed to mount on handle bars too. Pretty big and bulky but it was somewhat weather proofed. Most phones today hold up against moisture pretty well, so probably less of a need on them any more.

The computer could also monitor battery voltage if it controls the charge cycle, so if the battery is low on charge it could alert the owner that the battery should be charged or it might be starting to go bad. Like if it's under 12v when the key is first turned on it could be a sign the battery isn't long for this world when it should be 12.6v ish fully charged. ATV's sit a lot sometimes, so have to make the threshold low to the point of roughly when battery damage happens if it sits that low of voltage.

Really, a lot of the features to tie into a cellphone could be done fairly easily with external hardware and an Arduino to handle the measurements and communicate to the phone. Like temp sensors exist that you bolt to the head, rpm could be inductively picked up off the ignition coil wire, things like that.

This is the kind of stuff I'm currently doing with automotive computers. Attempting to pull the main processor off and add my own with my own custom code for the demo derby guys. If this works out, then in theory pretty much any car computer I can get inside I can make run my own code, aka delete security, remove safety features that people don't want for racing/derby, change sensor types like MAF to MAP, or go off the deep end and make it possible to tune off TPS things like that. I figured my project parallels pretty well with the ATV world. Ideally I'll have a custom computer built from scratch at some point, and once that's successful then stripping the design down to single cylinder would make sense to try in the atv market. Ideally 1 computer/hardware set to run any engine with the right harness and tune. I've gotten a fair bit deeper in electronics and signals since I was last active on here =).

https://i.gyazo.com/f7f47cff54359e8b57b1ea9d8f12d280.png