250es clutch stuck on shaft

[Swany10]

Hopefully the wealth of knowledge here has some ideas on my most recent 250es tear down problem. Went to take the low speed clutch off, got the reverse thread nut off, but the clutch seems frozen on there. I can feel a little axial play in the bell, but the clutch isn't moving. I've tried heat, but only heat gun temps, I've tried a slide hammer, but there's not much to attach to, and what little there is looks too delicate to really hammer on. Tried tapping on the bell a little bit too, no progress. As it stands right now I've hit it with some penetrating oil last night and hopefully that will do something, but I don't have my hopes up. Any other ideas out there?

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=269108&d=1644418407

[Dirtcrasher]

I'd get a large enough puller that would go behind the drum of the centrifugal clutch and touch on the center shaft. Anything that hits on just one side doesn't pull it off evenly...

[Swany10]

Since this motor sat for a long time, I'm tempted to put it back together, finish the top end rebuild, and try the clutch again after some runtime. Maybe some oil and heat cycles from running will work it loose.

[Dirtcrasher]

Depends how far the water got, your cylinder and piston rusted out but the cam seems like it still had some oil on it in your other posts picture.

If any bearing in that bottom end got even a touch of rust it will destroy itself quickly.

That housing should come off easily, I can't see any corrosion on the splines but it may have some in there...

[Swany10]

I'm not seeing any signs of water making it past the piston, but I'll look closer. Haven't seen a speck of rust on anything in the case, and the cylinder wall below where it was frozen looks clean too. there was still plenty of oil in it, and when I drained it I didn't see anything out of the ordinary with the oil. That said, the clutch shouldn't be stuck on the spline, so maybe that's my sign right there. Any other signs I could look for?

[big specht]

Does the centrifugal clutch have threads on it? I’ve worked on a newer Honda 500 the you had to pull that clutch off. They make a puller but I can’t remember if the big reds have threads or not.

[ATC King]

Does the drum have any blue color to it?

Looking at the edge, it seems like there's a ring of burned oil. It's not uncommon that people riding auto clutch machines don't understand how they work and use too high of a gear or to low of an RPM and work the hell out of the clutch to the point it's overheated and burning the oil that contacts it. If it's got a blue color on the drum, it's been overheated.

What can happen as the oil gets burned is it almost becomes like an adhesive and just about glues the clutch to the splines. It can also form a type of physical bond where the burned oil gets into the splines and turns to a crust in any groove or machined area and physically locks the parts together.

That situation can make getting the clutch off very difficult, even with a puller. In a perfect world, the clutch is just supposed to slide off the splines, but when it's stuck and if using a puller, it'll require a lot of pressure, then BANG, it'll break loose and come flying off.


AFAIK, there isn't a purpose built puller for the centrifugal clutch, because it shouldn't even need one. You'll just have to come up with something that'll work. Be careful not to damage the end of the crankshaft, because that's where oil flows through to lube the bottom end. Beating around on it isn't a good idea either, because you could damage the crankshaft bearings. You could try a propane torch, to soften whatever's holding it to the splines. It may as well be a thought that you'll have to replace the clutch, in case you damage it while removing, and it's a good idea before you get much deeper to find out exactly what parts are still available new, OEM or aftermarket, in case you need to sacrifice one to save the whole.


In the end, you need a lot of patience and to hold your mouth right.

[Swany10]

Pretty sure the bell hasn't been overheated, pretty universal in color, nearly black. I've seen some on eBay that look like what you're describing. My guess is that it's the fact that it sat for who knows how long with old sludgy oil in there. Probably the same effect as what you describe, might have to get creative with a puller.

[ATC King]

Good luck with the puller.

I don't know what experience you have with pullers, but the biggest thing is to get them pulling straight/even. Since a puller applies a lot of force, if it's not true, that force end up causing a bind and just works against you. In this case, if you can get something with three fingers in there, it'll have a better chance of pulling true. With just two, at some point it'll probably rock to one side or the other.

The big no-no with pullers is impact/power tools. Just with hand tools, they'll put enough stress on things that may cause damage. With impact/power tools, destruction is practically guaranteed.


One event that sticks in my head is a new guy in the shop decided to use an impact on a puller, after I had told him weeks before how bad a practice that was. I seen him going at a part and just kept my mouth shut and let him do it. He broke the part. I reminded him of the advice I gave and he actually acted like it was my fault because I didn't try to stop him. Can't fix stupid.


There are some exceptions to pullers and impact use, but in your case there aren't. It'll be tempting because the whole thing will want to turn as you wrench on it. Since you've already got the cylinder off, you may be able to remove the piston and put a wood/plastic dowel in the rod to hold it. You could possibly put a couple boards on each side of the piston to do the same thing, being the piston is probably junk anyway.

[Dirtcrasher]

There is a puller for that in the Service manual, IDK what it grabs but it exists. It must have internal jaws or something because I can't see how it could work otherwise. I'm often forced to make my own pullers. There are many ways to do things, I have a large bearing puller for bearings up against something flat and they have threaded holes in them 90 degrees off of that surface.

I can often use those and thread some rod in the threaded holes and then drill a big flat piece of steel creatively either tapping holes or welding a nut onto the flat steel. Of course having welders, lathes, milling machines and a zillion fastners helps quite a bit. You could make a puller with some 1/2" steel flats, some nuts, a AC welder, threaded rod and so on, and always oil the threads that are doing the work; Gotta get creative but bear in mind that if something is designed to be pulled off of a shafts center that grabbing the back could make that outer drum out of round. Then you put it back together and have more issues. That's what gets people in trouble, when they don't see the consequences and you're the only one there to watch and see whats bending etc.

Typically the outer drum should pop off fairly easy. I'd have no issue using a large bar with pressure behind it and a brass punch on the shaft with a good hammer tap. But if you have to hit it very hard something is wrong and you are damaging your ball bearings or something else. And that gets guys into far more damage than they wanted.

It's always better to use a puller because it causes no stress to any other parts...

[ATC King]

There is a puller for that in the Service manual, IDK what it grabs but it exists.


Nice. Have a part number or image of it?


I wouldn't be surprised if only Honda made one and there aren't any aftermarket ones available. Hens teeth comes to mind, along with a generic three jaw puller, some heat and a bench grinder.


I second not pulling by the drum. I was serching the interwebs for that Honda tool and came across an image of someone using a typical three jaw puller, with the fingers duck taped around the drum. Maybe it worked, but that was tough to look at.


Swany10, just keep updating this post on what you come up with. It'll help some others as it isn't unheard-of for the clutch to be stuck on these old machines.

Here's a couple types of pullers I use. The fingers on the three jaw one can be reversed, and if needed, cut and modified to fit the job.

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-in-three-jaw-gear-puller-69224.html

https://www.harborfreight.com/3-jaw-pilot-bearing-puller-4876.html

[shortline10]

I use a large early Briggs flywheel style 2 jaw puller , I grab it just behind the bell , they are just a snug fit not pressed on so it doesn’t hurt anything , been doing this method for a long time .

[Swany10]

There is a puller for that in the Service manual, IDK what it grabs but it exists. It must have internal jaws or something because I can't see how it could work otherwise.

Yeah it's in there, but it's not right. There are no threads on the clutch for this to thread onto. You can find a 07923-HB3000a for sale online, but it looks like it only works with a clutch that has threads on it. Not sure why it's in the service manual for this motor, but it seems as though honda made a mistake here.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=269110&d=1644593089

[shortline10]

I have this puller as well but it’s for the old trx300fw motors all the way up to the 2022 machines ranchers / foreman’s that use that idler clutch .






Yeah it's in there, but it's not right. There are no threads on the clutch for this to thread onto. You can find a 07923-HB3000a for sale online, but it looks like it only works with a clutch that has threads on it. Not sure why it's in the service manual for this motor, but it seems as though honda made a mistake here.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=269110&d=1644593089

[Swany10]

Swany10, just keep updating this post on what you come up with. It'll help some others as it isn't unheard-of for the clutch to be stuck on these old machines.

Here's a couple types of pullers I use. The fingers on the three jaw one can be reversed, and if needed, cut and modified to fit the job.

https://www.harborfreight.com/8-in-three-jaw-gear-puller-69224.html

Will do. I think I'll try some sort of puller on the drum, but only try a light pull, with heat applied. If that doesn't work, I think I'll put this thing back together as is assuming I can finish off the top end rebuild, and come back to the issue if I ever find myself needing to take this side cover off again.

[ATC King]

Hopefully it'll come off with a little tug.


One technique that's worked for me with stubborn parts is to apply moderate pressure with the puller and let it sit overnight. I tie any potentially falling parts or tools up with wire or twine. Sometimes when there's just gunk holding something together, it'll slowly release if pressure is held on it overnight instead of trying to brute force it in one go. I often fall back on the overnight thing when I start thinking about using explosives on something that's not budging. I got to say, Namas Freaking Te, and back away.

[Swany10]

It came off. Didn't have time to get a puller yet, but I noticed after some light hammering on the bell with a block of wood as a buffer that it was starting to work it's way off. Probably 5 -10 minutes of hammering while rotating 90 degrees between strikes got it to come off. Puller would have been better as there's a chance I messed up my bearings now, but I guess I'll see if I ever get it running again. Shaft looks good, just must be a tight fit on this one.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=269127&d=1644950528

[ryanlovejoy87]

Hi all! New to the page and was hoping for some help. Recently purchased a 1985 Big Red 250ES and noticed when I go to shift up or down the clutch doesn’t disengage and the shift lever will stick. I have both left and right covers off and the left side everything looks great and for the right side everything looks great. But… I did pull the clutches off to inspect them and noticed on the shifter clutch that the 4 bolts are tighten down all the way but the springs seem like they are fully compressed or have very little room between the coils. I’m thinking that’s my problem. When I go to shift lets say 1st gear the shifter lever with roller should move the clutch adjuster then press the clutch plate to disengage it. I think that the pressure plate won’t move and causing the clutch adjuster to jam up from pressure? Please if anyone could steer me in the right direction before I start buying all kinds of parts I don’t need. Thank you all! “RIDE RED”. Email- ryanlovejoy87@me.com