New Purchase: 1986 350x!

[wonderboy]

So a friend of a friend had this 1986 350x. My friend helped arrange the meeting, and he pretty much just said to make him an offer, which I did and he accepted. Got a great deal!

So first the good:
- Original fenders with no cracks (except for one tiny one that will get stop-drilled)
- Original seat with no cracks / splits
- No case saver installed, but the crankcase is untouched where the chain usually punches through.
- Mostly all OEM and still there except for the stuff listed in the bad below.

Now the bad:
- Needs tires
- Rear OEM grab bar missing and replaced with big-trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro basket rack (homemade)
- No mudflap on OEM fender (darnit!)
- Needs tank scoops (I've got a spare set ready to go)
- Needs fork boots (again, have a spare set ready to go)

...and I can't get it to run (yet).

So it's got fresh oil, clean gas, clean carb (not cleaned by me, so I'm gonna go back through it tomorrow) and I can't get it to fire. It's got spark, but low compression (about 60 PSI max after kicking it about a 5-6 times).

I checked the flywheel to make sure keyway wasn't sheared (giving wrong ignition timing). I can shoot gas in the carb or down the plug hole and all I've gotten in about 5 solid minutes of kicking it are a couple of backfires out the exhaust. It pretty much does NOTHING.

I'm thinking one of two things: stuck valve or jumped cam chain (changing cam timing).

Any ideas on how to both diagnose and possibly cure a sticking valve (without removing the head)? i've checked valve clearances and they seem correct on all 4 valves so if the valve is sticking, it isn't completely hanging open, it's just not closing cleanly.

Anyway, here are the pics:
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What other ideas do you guys have?

[BarnBoy]

Awesome score!!

Few things...stuck valve will give you no compression. Jumped cam timing would still not change the compression....but you might hit the piston with a valve and thats no good. With 50-60 psi, no way its gonna run. BUT, were you doing the test correctly? Throtle held wide open, choke off?

If so, next step, put some oil down the plug hole and try it again. Kick 6-7 times, WOT, if the reading goes up significantly its rings, if not you may have other issues. Never hurt to check timing and all that, I'd also check your valve clearances. Sounds like that motor is coming apart to me.

[wonderboy]

Yea, I think that's the next step. I'll dump some oil down in the cylinder and see if that gives better compression. The machine sat for several years (inside) but I could imagine that the rings are stuck. I did kick it while wide open and choke off, although on the 350x, the choke isn't a butterfly choke anyway (it's just a fuel enrichment circuit). I'll give it a shot in the morning.

With regard to the cam timing, it could affect the compression since it affects the closing of the valves relative to the piston movement. I honestly don't know if it would have that significant of an effect but it was a thought. Like you say, piston rings are definitely a way more likely scenario. I just hope I don't have to pull the top end...

Gotta order other maintenance items for it: air filter, front wheel bearings, chain / sprockets. Lots to do!

[tapper190]

nice score!! Get your son to pull you around on the auto x (unless he has moved up to your 350x) to get things moving in the engine

[tapper190]

I didn't want to pay for the $125 for a aftermarket rear grab bar or the $300 range for the oem, so I made one this weekend, maybe a new piece for the tapperline products, lol.

[shortline10]

If the compression jumps up significantly after putting a little motor oil down the plug hole then I would bump start the machine and force it to start , the heat from running it can sometimes restore the compression from stuck rings and dirty valve seats .

[ATC King]

I didn't want to pay for the $125 for a aftermarket rear grab bar or the $300 range for the oem, so I made one this weekend, maybe a new piece for the tapperline products, lol.

That's a clean looking grab bar.


Is that used motor oil in the Tiki torch container? You must really hate mosquitoes; trying to give them cancer instead of just driving them away. :)

I certainly made a mess of some good torches when a friend done that and I tried filling the torches in the dark.

[ATC King]

wonderboy, if you'd like to give it a better shot at starting, you can remove the sparkplug, warm it up with a small butane torch, & throw it back in quickly just before attempting to start. Also, use the lowest octane fuel you can.

That's a little trick used to start small engines with low compression. It's certainly good to at least get something running good enough that you can check it out for bad sounds & see if the transmission and clutch function properly. No doubt it makes project planning easier if you sort of know what you're working with, before tearing things down.

[wild200x]

Nice score!!

[BarnBoy]

You're right that valve timing could affect compression, but I think it'd be obvious if that was your problem. Definitely try and get it fired up, might get lucky with stuck rings or a bit of carbon in the valves.

[knappyfeet]

A lot of folks make the mistake (me included) of kicking an engine over after it has been sitting forever with no use.

Sometimes the valves get stuck and end up knicking the piston and bending the valve. Here is a pick of my bent valve and nick off my 200X. It looks very small but I couldn't muster 15 PSI of compression........so I would see if your compression doesn't bump up with the oil in the cylinder trick. It very well may be just bad rings.

Take an inspection camera and see how the walls are. Good luck

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[wonderboy]

Thanks for the info guys.

I tried oil in the cylinder. I actually used some heavy 20W50. Gave me maybe another 10 PSI, so I got maybe 60 PSI. I figured that wasn't that much of a difference, so I wanted to keep investigating.

I know this wouldn't affect compression, but may affect starting so I wanted to check for a blockage and removed the muffler. No blockage in the muffler. However, I did put my hand over the end of the header pipe and kicked it over by hand and it would suck my hand onto the pipe and then blow it off. I'd say the sucking was stronger than the blowing... (oh boy, that's gonna get me in trouble LOL)

I'm thinking bent/stuck valve. I've already pulled the cylinder cover off this morning and am gonna head back out and finish pulling the head off. Just had to confirm in the book that you do have to remove the motor to get the rest of the head off (dangit). Oh well, everything else is stripped off, so it really just means pulling the chain and the rest of the motor mount bolts.

Some good news from this morning though:
- The exhaust stud nuts came off WITHOUT SNAPPING THE STUDS!!! That's a first for me. 86 used acorn style nuts, so there is no exposed end of the stud. This has to be why. So no drilling out broken exhaust studs... YIPEEE!
- The cam journals look very clean and the oil pocket in the head for the cam lobes was full of oil. So no damage there. Very happy about that.
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I'll update in a bit once the head is off with what I find. Gonna check the cam timing too before removing that, just to eliminate that as a contributor.


@ Tapper: Well put me on your list to buy one once you start making them!! I'm with you, I'm not spending 200-300 ridiculous ebay prices for one of these. Tell you what, I'll make you a good deal on a large ice fishing basket rack grab bar... LOL!!

[wonderboy]

Found it!
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I have no idea what this is. It is a plastic tube. Initially, I thought it was an o-ring but this is hollow like wire insulation. There is no metal, it's all plastic thankfully! Looking at the valve seats and valves, I don't see any burning or erosion from not seating. I'm guessing that once this entered the exhaust valves, the engine stopped.

My find sure is looking a bit barren... LOL
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So the cylinder is looking in really good shape. There is really no ridge that I can feel (just barely) and I don't see any scoring in the cylinder.
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The cylinder is mirror smooth, so your seeing the reflection of the sooty/carbony top of the piston reflecting in the wall. I'll put this to top dead center and clean that off before reassembly (or maybe something else... keep reading below where I'm looking for advice)


So, now the thing I'd like everyone's advice on is how much should I replace/recondition.

I literally could throw this all back together now and I'm sure it would start and run. But I'm here...

Do I:
- Replace valve seals (I think yes, it is quick and cheap)
- Chuck the valves up in the drill press and clean the carbon/soot from them (I think yes)
- Lap the valves? I don't have the gear for this, but I'm guessing it's cheap for the little handle doo-hicky and compound. Does this really even do anything?
- Do a complete valve job? (not sure if I can get it done locally and how much $$)
- Ball hone the existing cylinder and replace rings (looks to be factory bore and rings)
- Upgrade to a Wiseco 10.25:1 and bore the cylinder and start brand new fresh? (I did this on one of my 85's and really like it)

Looking for your guys thoughts.

On a total tangent, I AM glad that I removed the motor now. Even if not to find this issue, the aluminum spacers on the motor mounts were JUST ABOUT seized onto the bolts. I had to hammer on the bolts pretty good to break them free. This will give me the chance to totally clean the bushings, bolts, and Anti-Seize the ever-loving crap out of them on reassembly. Take this as a public service announcement: Make this a part of your annual or maybe every other year maintenance. Take out one set of motor mounts bolts at a time, clean the bolts, apply anti-sieze, and reassemble. Ok, end of public service announcement. :)

[BarnBoy]

Frank, quick work. Wonder where that came from...

Its apart now. Pull the jug, pull the piston. Check your crank make sure its in good shape. Then get the cylinder bored and honed, that mirror shiny is glazing on the cyl. It needs bored and honed, and a fresh piston and rings. Wiseco piston kit, $120, bore $50-75, gasket kit isn't too much, timing chain. Then buy new valves, and get them ground and the seats cut. $25 a valve labor, and maybe $15 a valve if you buy Shindy. Get a good Japanese brand, Vesrah is good too. You gotta start fresh, don't skimp out unless you're gonna sell it. I say you can do the complete top end for @ $300, barring any unforseen issues. Is the 350x 4 valve or 2? I forget...if 4 maybe bump that up to $350. Then its brand new!!

Definitely reassemble everything with antisieze...im going through fixing a siezed bolt on my 185s motor. Not pretty...dissimilar metal corrosion is real.

[350for350]

That looks like a piece of an old, broken off carb vent hose to me. judging by the color and apparent size. I'm guessing that someone didn't notice it break off while removing or installing the carb at some time. Then, all of a sudden, it wouldn't start.

[floydechoes2000]

Carb cleaner can spray nozzle perhaps?

[jasong_10]

Carb cleaner can spray nozzle perhaps?

That was my first thought too, the little red straw thing that comes with that sort of stuff . . .

[wonderboy]

I think you guys may be on to it. I just shut down the garage for the night, but now I'm gonna have to go back out there and compare it to the other straws in the garage... (running now before I finish this post).

You guys nailed it! Its the straw from a spray can like carb cleaner or brake cleaner! I stretched out the mangled mess that I removed from my exhaust valve and it is pretty much the same length as the one I grabbed from my can of brake cleaner.

Check it out:266175266176

Underneath that nasty black is actually red plastic. It is visible (not in these pics so well) in other parts of the straw.

Mystery solved! Thanks guys!

I figure I'm going to keep posting here on my progress with the cleanup, repairs, and reassembly of this machine.

Didn't have a lot of time tonight to do much other than wire wheel the motor mount bolts and the aluminum spacers. So much to do. I'm gonna call around tomorrow and search for a local machine shop capable of handling the cylinder bore and valve job (yup, I think I've decided to go 10.25 on a fresh bore).

[BarnBoy]

I think you guys may be on to it. I just shut down the garage for the night, but now I'm gonna have to go back out there and compare it to the other straws in the garage... (running now before I finish this post).

You guys nailed it! Its the straw from a spray can like carb cleaner or brake cleaner! I stretched out the mangled mess that I removed from my exhaust valve and it is pretty much the same length as the one I grabbed from my can of brake cleaner.

Check it out:266175266176

Underneath that nasty black is actually red plastic. It is visible (not in these pics so well) in other parts of the straw.

Mystery solved! Thanks guys!

I figure I'm going to keep posting here on my progress with the cleanup, repairs, and reassembly of this machine.

Didn't have a lot of time tonight to do much other than wire wheel the motor mount bolts and the aluminum spacers. So much to do. I'm gonna call around tomorrow and search for a local machine shop capable of handling the cylinder bore and valve job (yup, I think I've decided to go 10.25 on a fresh bore).

Make sure they give you the right piston/bore clearance. So many shops are sloppy with this and turn out 0.005" clearance and crap like that. Whatever Wiseco says....run it.

Good luck! Post your progress.

[wonderboy]

So I spent most of the last week just disassembling and cleaning parts. The machine is down to the frame and swingarm.
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Finally, on Friday my first parts order came in.
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After a quick trip to the machine shop to drop off the piston, it's time for some re-assembly!

First up was the front tire and hub. The original tire had great tread depth left, but had some cracking in it and very poorly installed plugs. I figured even after plugging the holes the tire wasn't going to hold air, so I ordered a tube for it. So time to break the bead and remove it to install new plugs. I managed to find the official Honda tire removal tool quite a few years ago. It works very well! Plus the larger rim size of the front tire makes this one much easier to get off the rim once the bead is broken.
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Now that the tire was off, it was time to pull the old plugs out (two) and prepare for a new patch/plug. I've used these quite a bit and really like them. It provides a plug attached to a large circular patch on the inner surface. Obviously not as convenient as using a conventional plug which allows you to fix this without removing the tire from the rim, but this setup works very well especially for larger punctures. Even though I'm gonna run a tube, I want these holes patched to prevent any debris from entering the tire through the holes. So this just works like a normal patch: you "buff" the inner surface of the tire to clean it, apply the cement and let it completely dry, remove the backing from the patch and pull the stem through the hole, then "stitch" it down using the toothy roller wheel. This really presses the patch down and gets rid of any air. Then just cut the extra plug length off.
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Next up new bearings in the front hub.

[wonderboy]

The front bearing install was pretty standard.

I didn't take pics of the removal, but I have a way that I like to do it that I've used a bunch and it works well. I'm honestly not sure how else to do it. To remove them, here is what I do:
1. Pop out the bearing dust seal with a pick
2. Drive the bearing cage off the balls with a punch. This is super easy if the cage is a plastic clip on style, but more difficult if the cage is spot welded stamped steel.
3. Scoot all the balls to one side and remove the inner race and then the balls. Save for later.
4. Now the bearing spacer can easily be removed and the opposite bearing driven out with your favorite drift
5. So all that is left now is the original outer bearing race. I actually just reassemble the bearing with most (but doesn't have to be all) of the original balls and inner race.
6. Just lay some of the balls on the outer race, set the inner race back on them, and then scoot some of the balls to the other side. Just get it so there is a ball sorta on each side of the inner race. This will be enough to hold it all together while the bearing is not driven out (using a drift from the other side)

After wire-wheeling the spacer to clean it up, everything is put back together. Bearings are driven with the proper size tool (DO NOT DRIVE ON THE INNER RACES! You'll brinell the bearing and ruin it) Use something that will apply pressure on only the outer race. Both bearing are driven in until they bottom out. Don't forget to insert the spacer tube after the first bearing is in!!
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Next up are the seals. I used a tool that overlapped the seal and hits on the hub to keep the seals flush with the surface. Once I reassembled the hub on the machine (more on that later) I realized that the right side seal (the opposite side from the brake disc) need to be recessed for the spacer to seal properly.
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[wonderboy]

I didn't get any pics of the front fork rebuild. My hands were just too oily to use my phone. But there are lots of threads out there on rebuilding forks (I think!). The key with a fork rebuild is to inspect the two bushings: one on the bottom of the fork tube and the one that presses into the top of the slider. Make sure the wear surface (the outer surface of the fork tube bushing and inner surface of the slider bushing) are uniformly grey. This is a coating that provides the sliding surface. If you see copper showing through a majority of the bushing then it is worn out.

Also, when sliding on your new fork seals, use a thin plastic grocery bag on the top of the fork tube so that the alignment groove on the top of the tube doesn't damage the seal. Dump a little fork oil on the bag and the seal will easily slide over it and onto the fork tube.

The steering stem bearing were next. 86 uses the identical loose 18 balls on the top of the steering stem like 85 uses, but instead of the same on the bottom, 86 uses a cage to hold the loose balls. There is still a separate race on the bottom triple and one in the steering neck on the frame, but it is nice not having to manage the loose balls on the bottom of the stem.
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After greasing the bottom bearing, the lower triple is slid up into the neck of the frame and then a good amount of grease is applied to the race at the top of the neck. The 18 1/4" steel bearing balls are place in (the grease holds them in place) then the upper race and large retention nut.

Once this is in place tighten the nut on top very tight (relatively, probably 20-30 foot pounds) and move the triples back and forth a few times. This sets the bearing and gets everything where it needs to be. Then loosed the nut all the way and torque it to a final torque (per the manual) of about 5 foot pounds. This nut requires a hook spanner and I didn't have a way to measure it, so I used the TLAR method. The triple should still take a tiny amount of effort to move, it shouldn't be able to flop under its own weight.

Once that's done, it's time to place the upper triple clamp on top, slide in the fork tubes for alignment, and torque down the final top nut.
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Done!

[wonderboy]

Almost done catching up this thread with my progress...

I had an old set of fork boots to replace the completely destroyed originals on this machine, but there was one crack and they were pretty stiff.
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I took them inside, washed them in really hot water to hopefully soften them up a bit, and used some super glue on the split to try to close the gap. Bottom line: it didn't work. The one boot was too far gone. Time to break into the emergency parts stash:
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Those will work!

Last step before buttoning up the front end was to clean up the front axle bolt and spacers. The spacers wound up having a lot of surface pitting. These definitely would have just chewed up my new seals. Time to dive back into the parts stash again. After wire-wheeling the "stash" parts, I had a usable set. I decided I would just us the parts stash axle bolt too since it was cleaner. Top bolt: original. Bottom bolt: parts stash bolt going on machine
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Time to grease the wheel bearing seals, slather up the axle bolt and put it all together.
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DONE!
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Sorry for the sideways pics... I'll see if I can figure out how to fix that.

Up Next: Front Brakes!

[BarnBoy]

Looks great....you're moving quickly and this is going to be an awesome bike. A 350x is on my list...I will get one someday....

[ATC King]

Found it!
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I've got to file that under: Answers for generic engine won't run questions.


Good thing that's all it was. Good job on getting on everything so quickly.




That front tire though. I'd be more than a little apprehensive about going fast and hard on it. Instead of a road gator, it may become a trail gator. It looks like someone rode it flat (or pert near) for a while, which will break down the carcass.

[BOB MARLIN]

When you do the engine reassembly the valve cover goes on without a gasket. DO NOT USE SILICON. Silicon turns into mush when it gets soaked in motor oil. I've been using permatex on all of my x's
and it is holding up well. The silicon will end up getting into your oiling system when it lets go, and do bad things. Whatever "sealant" you use don't glob it on. You want to minimize how much of it will squeeze
into the inside of the cover as so it doesn't end up globbing off and falling into the top of the head and blocking of the oil passages.

Also, valves are getting scarce for the 350x. If you can find new ones -great. But you might end up having to use the old ones if they are still good.

[wonderboy]

Thanks for the input guys. I'll keep an eye on that front tire and see how it looks after some riding. I've honestly seen worse condition tires before, but I agree I don't want a blowout happening which would not be nice to the OEM front fender.

Low compression causes:
1. Bad rings
2. Worn cylinder
3. Burned/sticking valve
4. Little red straw from can of carb cleaner stuck in your exhaust port holding valves open
LOL!!

With regard to the top end assembly: AMEN! I'm with you and am extremely anal retentive about this. I follow the book procedure and use the recommended Hondabond sealant (as far as I can tell, same material the factory used). I go so far as to actually mark in sharpie marker the "exclusion" zones exactly as shown in the manual. I am very careful about this because I don't want to starve the cam journals of oil...
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Another skill that is a sort of transfer skill from another hobby of mine (electronics) is using a razor blade as a squeegee of sorts to even out heatsink grease on electronic components. Same story here, you just want a very even thin layer of material. I've reassembled a couple 350x topends so far, and I use the razor blade to smooth out and remove the excess Hondabond. I just go over it to get a nice smooth even layer that isn't spilling out over the edges. I then usually let it sit open just a bit longer and then place the cylinder head cover on with all bolts just finger tight. I let that sit a bit, then finally torque per spec.

Regarding the valves, they are actually in beautiful shape. I have a couple sets of OEM new valves in the stash, but these are staying safely tucked away as the guy at the machine shop said that they originals were in perfect condition and will clean up with no effort.

[wonderboy]

Progress update from Sunday:

Gave the headlight shell a bath. Just need to do something about the minor rust on the bottom of the lamp lenses. Probably just find a brush on rust converting coating so I can do this in the house (too cold in the garage for this type of work). Sorry, no post bath pictures. I'll get some once this is all back assembled.
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Rebuilt front and rear brakes. Front caliper was in great shape, just needed to clean the slide rail pins. Gave the whole thing a good wipe down to clean it up, wire wheels all the fasteners and then reconnected the hose with new crush washers. Pads had good life left in them, rubber parts were good (after cleaning). Overall excellent condition.
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With the front master cylinder, I was unfortunately not so lucky. One of the handlebar bracket bolts broke (a first for me) and one of the Philips lid screws stripped. I botched the removal. What I USUALLY do is find a drill bit just a bit smaller than the OD of the head of the screw and then drill down. The stripped Philips slot usually give you a good enough centering of the drill bit. Once you drill down just far enough, you sever the head from the screw and then the lid is free. This also leaves plenty of screw sticking up to grab with vice grips and back out the rest of the screw. Well, I used too small of a bit and ate into the portion of the screw that I usually grab with the vice grips. It mushed and broke off and I'm left with the screw stuck in the master with nothing to grab. I think my next plan of attack will be to use an old lid as a drill guide and use that to help center the drill bit as I try to drill this out. The master would otherwise be rebuildable, and I hate wasting an original OEM master cylinder especially with the "HA5" marks in the casting. I'm a sucker for keeping the old original parts going.

Anyway, no time to mess with this now, so into the parts stash again for a different master. Found one that looked promising. I removed the piston and found that a quick cleaning and blast with some brake cleaner and this was good to go. Cosmetically not a 10, but functional for sure. Grabbed a good used brake lever out of the stash (original was broken off) and a couple new chrome oval headed screws for the handlebar mount and got it mounted up. Oh yea, new crush washer too. No pics of anything except the final result:
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The rear caliper required a complete rebuild. When I removed the park brake block-off plate, it was very wet with brake fluid. The little P8 o-ring that seals the park brake stem out the back of the piston must have been leaking. Anyway, completely tore down the caliper and found the o-ring and retaining cup loose on the park brake stem. The little cup requires a little tap with something flat to give it a tiny bit of mushrooming to give a tight fit again. All new rubber parts, cleaned piston all shiny new looking, wire wheeled all hardware and reassembled. The master only required a new rubber boot on the input shaft. Sorry no pics of this one... it was way too late and hand way too oily.

Oh yea, I'm trying out these new handlebars from Emgo. These were very affordable, and I've had them on the shelf for a while waiting for a project. They are intended for a later model quad ('93-'06 TRX300EX), but they have the provisions for the OEM handlebar endcaps, grips, and are similar to the 350X bend. I've never used them, but we'll see. The only hickup is that the knurled area of the bar is too narrow for the bar clamps. They seem to be secure, but it will take a little riding to be sure.
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Up next: Have to decide about pulling swingarm pivot bolt and inspecting that or cleaning up the exhaust and drilling one snapped heat shield bolt... we'll see how the week goes.

[BOB MARLIN]

Good to hear you knew about the silicon problem, most don't. I've also dug silicon out of the oil screen in the bottom of the engine from people using it on the clutch side cover.

[wonderboy]

I pretty much only use the Hondabond now, if anything. Side cover gaskets go on dry for me (actually a little oil first) but no sealant. I've lived with too much silicone snot inside of motors from previous owners to know better now.

Cheers! :beer

[BarnBoy]

A bit of oil on the gaskets let's them come apart super EZ next time. You know what you're doing...Hondabond, yamabond, 3bond, all good stuff.

[wonderboy]

Yesterday I was able to drill out two broken bolts from the factory header (the two rear bosses where the heat shield bolts into) and heli-coil them. No pics, but once I bead-blast and high temp paint it, I'll snap some shots of it. I also opened up the little lid on the back underside of the muffler and repaired those threads too. This let me shake out a lot of loose crud that was rattling around inside the muffler. Same deal, no pics of that but once it's pretty again I'll post up some shots.

Tonight I removed the swingarm pivot bolt and rear shock. The rear needle bearings were perfect, and the pivot bolt only needed a small amount of wire wheeling to look super. After cleaning the fasteners, pivot seals, and chain slider I packed the needle bearings with moly grease, inserted the pivot shaft, coated the pivot bolt with anti-seize and reassembled everything. Torqued to 65 ft-lbs. Sorry, the only pic I have of this is the bolt. The rest was pretty boring.
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Next up: The rear shock.

There are signs of major leakage on the rear shock. I was worried that the guts would be toast. However, the shock still moved smooth and quiet so I was hopeful.
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After backing off on the spring adjuster nuts all the way (pleasantly surprised that they came loose very easily) and removing the spring perch and then the spring from the shock, I popped the bottom cap off and confirmed that the seal is toast, it is a sloppy mess in there.
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The shock is definitely coming apart for a rebuild. I released the pressure from the reservoir after fighting the cap off the entire way and was happy that it still had pressure. I removed the hose from the reservoir and was bummed: the reservoir was dry. No oil came out of it or the free end of the hose. Feeling nervous at this point (hoping the rest of the shock isn't dry).
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Switched attention to the shock body now and removed the hose from it, and phew... it was full of oil. The shock body appeared pretty much full of oil, so overall the system was only down the small volume of oil contained in the reservoir. I'm hopeful now that I'll only need the shaft seals.
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Disassembled the shock shaft, being careful to use a wire loop to hold all the piston stack, shims, washers, etc in the exact order they came off the shaft.
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Wouldn't you know it: I've got a 250R and 200X seal set, but NO 350X seals... Well, done for now! Gotta order the seals from Schmidty Racing. They have a nice inexpensive seal kit with the stuff you need for a basic rebuild.
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That's it for now!

[wonderboy]

I got too cold, greasy, and impatient to take many more pictures during the reassembly. But it's all back together! I just got back in from taking it for a spin down the road. For those not around the Detroit Metro Area right now, it is about 20 degrees and snowing out. Not exactly 3-wheeler weather (not for me anyway!). Ran it down our snow covered side street and it ran awesome. Just discovered though that the voltage regulator has taken a dump, as both headlights burned out within about 5 seconds of turning them on. Bummer.

I've got a few more details to work out (one fastener on the exhaust heat shield is missing) and the voltage regulator and new bulbs. I've got a set of OEM tires stashed that I'll mount up and this one is done! Can't wait for spring to get a real ride in on it.

Here is a completed pic. You can see how white I got the front fender. I washed it in our laundry sink and used a Mr Clean Magic Eraser. It really cleaned up nicely. The rear fenders are just too big to wash inside. They'll have to look nasty till warmer weather hits and I can get the garden hose out. I stole tank shrouds from one of my other machines, so I'll need to order another set eventually to replace them.
266665


Here was the very first firing of the engine. It's on high idle with the choke on. After heat cycling a few times to cook the exhaust paint on, I adjusted the idle pretty smooth. I think the airscrew needs a little tweak since it doesn't want to rev back down quite as quickly as I think it should. (sorry, can't upload a video)

[ironchop]

Nice rehab so far.

Bravo on doing your own rear shock. I'm glad I did mine as it saved me a few hundred bucks. As long as the person is careful with the shim stack order, it's a piece of cake to do a rear shock rebuild. I did my own on the R for $105 counting oil and nitrogen and I bought stupid expensive racetech oil which was $30 of that $105.

[wonderboy]

Nice rehab so far.

Bravo on doing your own rear shock. I'm glad I did mine as it saved me a few hundred bucks. As long as the person is careful with the shim stack order, it's a piece of cake to do a rear shock rebuild. I did my own on the R for $105 counting oil and nitrogen and I bought stupid expensive racetech oil which was $30 of that $105.

Totally agree! It's a lot of money to pay a service to do it. And the work really isn't that bad. I actually made the investment and purchased the nitrogen cylinder and regulator, hose, and fitting to recharge too. I've done probably a dozen shocks so far between my own, my brothers, and friends. I really like being self-reliant for this stuff. I HATE hiring out work, both because of the cost and because of the unknown of how good of a job they will do.


Oh, and here is a Pro-Tip for voltage regulators (note I blew both headlights and taillight last night): To get the most effectiveness out of your regulator, make sure the wires on the regulator are physically connected to the wires on the wiring harness on the 3-wheeler. They work better that way.

... I'm an idiot. I was rushing too much and completely forgot to plug the regulator in. I struggled so long with the boots on the airbox that it threw me off. Oh well, time to order new bulbs, plug in the regulator, and move on.

[El Camexican]

Nice job!!!! :beer:

[wonderboy]

I really had to fight the urge to pretty it up too much. I just cleaned the grime as much as I could. The key was to make sure that mechanically everything was sound. Once spring hits, I'll give it a good wash and get those rear fenders cleaned up (peel the old ORV stickers and magic eraser clean them). So pretty much every bearing, seal, etc is all good. Thanks to Dirtcrasher for supplying the out-of-production foot brake lever seals and to ps2fixer for supplying some electrical terminals that were shot on my harness. And also Dirtwheels for the amazing good condition rear grab bar and steering stop cover. Thanks guys!

Really the only things this needs to be back to 100% OEM (the way I like to ride them) are:
* Upper brake hose guide - If anyone has just the bracket part, I've got the wire form part. I'll buy whatchya got.
* Rear Skid Plate - I'm gonna make a couple welds on the old original to make it serviceable. But I'm keeping my eye out for a good used OEM replacement.
* Toolbox - Not gonna worry about this one since it's just too much money for something that I'm not gonna really carry tools in anyway (weight will just break it). Those support brackets for the 86 are worth their weight in gold (according to ebay).
* Helmet Holder - 86 had a helmet holder (85 didn't). Again, not gonna really look for this since it really doesn't do anything for me and people want stupid money for them on e-bay.

[wild200x]

been following and really like what you have done. I am still trying to figure out how the straw got there??? lmao. Also, you said you would use Magic Eraser on fenders? Is this a thing? restore color?

[wonderboy]

been following and really like what you have done. I am still trying to figure out how the straw got there??? lmao. Also, you said you would use Magic Eraser on fenders? Is this a thing? restore color?

The Mr Clean Magic Eraser is just a good cleaning option. It doesn't have enough oomph to bring back any color really. I think to really do that process, you're talking about real wet/dry sandpapers and staring out at much more coarse grits. As for the magic eraser sponge, I've heard it is the equivalent of a very high grit abrasive (very very fine, like in the 1000's). On the front fender, I first washed it in the laundry tub using just a car wash sponge. It got most of the dirt off, but the white seemed dirty still. I've used the magic eraser's on lots of other plastic parts before (stuff unrelated to ATCs) and had good luck. On the front fender, it is amazing how well it really got rid of the dirty look. Just a little effort and you can literally see the effect as you scrub and then rinse. I think the sponge form of this works so well because it conforms to the surface so well.

Once we get some warm weather and I'm able to use the hose outside, I'll try to remember to post some before, in-process, and after pics of the rear fender. It hasn't been touched yet just because it's too big for the laundry sink and the hoses are shut off for the winter.


As for the straw, I really don't think it could have made it's way in through the carb and intake. It had to have fallen into the spark plug hole at some point when the previous owner was doing something. "Hmmm, where'd that straw go... must be on the floor somewhere. Oh well, lets put the plug back in and start it back up..." I'm really not sure what he would have been doing, but its the only way I can figure that this happened. I'm just happy it was a plastic straw and not something metallic that fell in there. I had the valve seats reground and the valves checked and everything was fine, thankfully.

[XRyder]

Yer dog don't look to thrilled! LOL

[wonderboy]

Yea, he loves hanging out by me, but not in the cold garage... LOL! Now, if I happen to fire up the 3wheeler, he goes bonkers because he loves to follow me if I ride it around (just close to home). But he definitely isn't a cold weather garage dog.

[keister]

The Mr Clean Magic Eraser is just a good cleaning option. It doesn't have enough oomph to bring back any color really. I think to really do that process, you're talking about real wet/dry sandpapers and staring out at much more coarse grits. As for the magic eraser sponge, I've heard it is the equivalent of a very high grit abrasive (very very fine, like in the 1000's). On the front fender, I first washed it in the laundry tub using just a car wash sponge. It got most of the dirt off, but the white seemed dirty still.

My goto for years on my ATC seats has been WD-40 plus Magic Eraser. I'm not sure if that was a good idea since most of my seats are now starting to harden up and dry out.
When I clean plastics, I generally spray the entire trike down with LA's Totally Awesome and hose off, BUT.... if still dirty, I pull out the WD-40 plus Magic Eraser and clean up the fenders. Really makes the white plastics (Fat Cat, white Clarke tank, etc) really very white.
The reason I am telling this is because the last time I took a Magic Eraser to my (Big Red) fenders, my friends were over and they told me to cease the practice immediately. They told me the abrasive in the eraser would take (and has taken) all the shine out of my plastics.
You know how Honda OEM plastics have a shiny exterior and it is dull underneath?? Well, I started looking at my plastics and maybe I have scrubbed the shine off of them over the years?
Now I am not even sure, and not trying to highjack the thread, maybe I should start a new thread on cleaning fenders but since it was brought up here, it triggered this question.

[wonderboy]

My take is this: the shine naturally goes away due to environmental conditions. I'm almost positive (but somebody here can correct me if I'm wrong) there is no coating or finish applied to the plastics to make them shiny. They are simply a very smooth out-of-the-mold finish which is nice and shiny. The shine after 35 years dulls down due to whatever processes are acting on the plastic. Yea, the magic eraser may help that happen more quickly, but even if you haven't touched them I think they will typically dull up if ridden regularly.

The magic eraser is a very mild abrasive. So, I imagine that if you have a very shiny fender and you magic eraser'ed it, you would knock the shine off a bit. However, it does deeply clean the surface and removes crud, so if you were to follow this up with a buffer and some polishing compound, I'm betting you'd start to get the shine back.

Most of my rider fenders have so many scrapes and scratches that it just doesn't seem worth it to try to shine them up.

[wonderboy]

So we had an amazingly warm day yesterday in the Metro Detroit area. I got the 350x fenders all cleaned up. I did use the magic eraser again, and the difference is dramatic. Like was stated earlier though, this may knock the shine off, but these fenders were already dull from long ago. Next step may be to try some polishing. But for now, I'm good to go. All that is really needed is a gastank repaint and this thing would be VERY respectable.

I also mounted up one of my sets of NOS OEM tires. These were a BIG disappointment though. I bought them 2nd hand. They still had all the little rubber nubs on the tread (they've never been run) but they clearly had been mounted before because the beads were damaged to the point where the air would leak so fast they'd go flat in about 10 minutes. Super bummed, but I just had to tube them. Would rather not, but now they hold air perfectly. Oh well...

Here is the before picture:
266915

Here is the cleaned up pic:
266914

I've got the upper brake hose guide on the way from e-bay. Once that is on, I may contact my buddy who does tank painting. The ONLY other thing that is missing at that point is the worth-its-weight-in-gold mudflap. I'm seriously thinking about different ways of reproducing this. I'm not sure about the resin casting methods, since the shrinkage (even if only a percent or two) over the long dimension of this would result in a bad repro. I'm wondering about the option of a fiberglass replacement. I can imagine that the flat part of the flap would be no significant challenge (no more so than a typical fiberglass molded part), but the mounting tabs on the back would present a challenge. I imagine those being a separately made piece bonded to the rest of the mudflap... not sure really.

[jasong_10]

That cleaned up great, looks good.

[newby200x]

The difference on the rear fender w/ that magic eraser is remarkable. It seems like it would be ready for some 2000 grit sandpaper and then some nice polishing to bring the shine out. I've been working on and off on trying to reproduce the rear mudflap. I took the original and modeled it up on my 3D CAD software. I had it quoted through a couple different polyurethane casting companies....some were way off from my budget, but one was w/in reason. His only drawback is the shrinkage/tolerance rate. He claimed that the length of the part would be subjected to a tolerance of +/- .3" which is astronomical. He claims there are ways to tighten this up, but I haven't had time to call him and discuss these alternative ways. My next step is to 3D print my model to make sure it matches up to the original and then work on casting them in polyurethane.

[Arky-X]

That cleaned up nice!
If you are looking for a cheap alternative to painting the tank, you can get a tank cover instead. Either Ceet or Hi- flite has different colors to choose.

[wonderboy]

Hey newby200x

I know that there a lot of guys here that do the resin casting. John Swineheart did a ton of it and made some really nice parts. He used the resins from Alumilite. I looked on their site and most of their resins had a shrinkage rate of just a fraction of a percent. But the length of the mudflap is 30". When you multiply that dimension by even a fraction of a percent, you get exactly what those guys told you: +/- 0.3 inches. I agree that there is no way that would work here. Maybe an 1/8" max would be acceptable.

Alumilite does make resins that offer an order of magnitude lower shrinkage (forget what line it was) but then I think the viscosity went up. When thinking about a mold design, finding a way to get good bubble free coverage of the surface of the mudflap while still filling each of the mounting tabs seemed like a pretty tough problem to tackle.

This is what got me to thinking about make a fiberglass copy.

Keep in mind I really have minimal to no experience with either resin casting of fiberglass mold making, but hey, that's what the internet is for right? LOL!

...and yes, I'm really thinking about polishing up these things. They are honestly in nicer shape than my 85 machines (which have a lot of deep scratches).

[wonderboy]

Most of the Alumilite line shows shrinkage numbers of between 0.0041"/inch to 0.01"/inch. On a 30" long part, this means shrinkage of between 0.123" and 0.3". Too much.

They do have a line of lower shrinkage resins. The "Vac Master 50" and "Replicator 532". These have shrinkage of 0.0006" per inch. Over the 30" long mudflap, this would give 0.018" shrinkage, which would be acceptable. Problem is these seem to be VERY viscous. I think (as the name implies) these would need to use pressure (vaccuum or positive pressure) to give proper results.

[wonderboy]

That cleaned up nice!
If you are looking for a cheap alternative to painting the tank, you can get a tank cover instead. Either Ceet or Hi- flite has different colors to choose.

I'll probably just live with it as is until I've got the money to get it painted. I've actually got an 86 250SX tank that needs paint too, so I figure I'll have them both done at the same time (with the same color white).

[newby200x]

I really don't want to try to mold the part myself as I don't have the room or time at the moment to tackle a project like that. I'd like to hear some of the suggestions that the molding company has that I have been speaking to, but I just haven't got to that point yet. Once I verify my 3D model w/ a 3D printed part, then we can have that conversation. He did state that they typically just compensate the shrink rate by "oversizing" the 3D printed version. With the pricing he gave me, if he could produce the part w/ in a reasonable tolerance and consistently, I'd be ready to pull the trigger. He believes he could produce 1000+ parts of the same tool.

[wonderboy]

If you could produce that, I think you'd be printing money.

I think the target cost would be important too. Anything over 300-400 dollars probably wouldn't work (just in my opinion). If you came in under $200, I think you'd sell as many as you could make (again, just based on my opinion). At least this are my thoughts on it. Of course, the more you can make, the less the overhead costs influence the per part price. A 1000 would really make it affordable, but I don't know if the market demands 1000 parts. I've never done anything like this either, so I don't have a frame of reference for how much demand there is for replacement parts like this. Is it a 100? 10,000? I'm guessing between 100 and 1000. Probably closer to the 100 mark.

Super fun to think about. Just know this: If you make it, I will buy it!

If you don't make it... well then I'll have to think about doing it. But I really don't think I'd be able to pull it off.

[wonderboy]

So re-reading your post a bit: you'd produce molds then from a pristine 3d printed part then, rather than an original part? I see that huge advantage in that you can oversize the 3d print by exactly the expected shrinkage rate. The only downside I see if the finishing work required to get the same surface texture as the OEM part. It is a grained finish. I think you'd want to at least get rid of the lines you get from a 3D printed part, maybe make it smooth. Lots of fun to think about!

[newby200x]

The company I have been in talks w/ can create a mold of an OEM part, or a 3D printed part. I'd rather not take the chance at possibly damaging a good original, so the next best thing would be a 3D printed part. With that said, the 3D CAD model I have is made just from me using a digital caliper and angle finder. I wouldn't consider it a 100% copy to the OEM, but it should be close enough to call it a nice reproduction. And now that I have CAD data on it, I can 3D print a few, or modify any features that might need changed. As far as surface finish, they would make the mold off of a SLA 3D printed part. This is a much nicer, smoother finish than what you typically see on less expensive, home 3D printers. These less expensive 3D printers create FDM parts, which means it's just layering lines of plastic over and over to create the part. Based on my prior experience on polyurethane casting in the office furniture industry, you should be able to spray a textured paint on the 3D printed part, or at least sand/finish how you see fit. If I do pull the trigger on this, I would likely do a pre-order, or do their MOQ first. Based on the quote I have, I would ballpark that I could sell this for around $150 shipped. That price could go down depending on how many I order and amortize the tooling costs into. I have access to a FDM printer at my work, so I can fine tune the 3D CAD file until it's near perfect. What I don't have is access to a SLA printer, so that is where my costs would start incurring.

[wonderboy]

Darn, you've got this figured out! I get it, the devil is in the details, but it sounds like you're in a really good position to pull this off. This is awesome. @ $150, I don't think you'd have any trouble selling these. I know I'll buy multiple if you bring them in at that price. Post up from time to time if you want more encouragement or unsolicited advice (LOL!).

[newby200x]

Well you gave me some motivation at the least. I'm importing the model into our printer software right now and can hopefully print one off soon.