Perplexed-Need Help X 4

[patriot1]

About 3 months ago a guy outside of Butcher Hollar, TN sold an enclosed box trailer. The guy who bought it decided to sell the four three wheelers that were in it and I decided to buy them. The guy said that the original owner was from California and bought the trikes from there and they hadn't been out of the trailer since and that was over 20 years ago. The newest Cali registration sticker is dated 1995.

The bikes look like new to me. The tanks are clean. The plastics are good for the most part and most of the cables even still work! Minimal surface rust at the most. Seat pan are even pretty good on one of the 81 200s (No letter). Although there are twelve flat tires and evidence of a varmint bedding in a few of them.

2 81 200 (no letter) and 2 85 250SXs.

I decided that I would start working on one of the 200's (no letter) over Christmas break. The pull cord was out so I took it off and began to get it freed up and in working order which I did.

I was about to order tires for the 200 (no letter) when I decided to check and see if the engine would turn over with my ratchet. It wouldn't...hmmm. I pulled the plug and poured some marvel mystery oil down the hole. I went back today and it still wouldn't turn so I checked the other 200 (no letter) and it was the same way. Locked up.

Then, I checked the two 85 model SX's and when I put pressure on the kickers-they weren't budging either. ???

What would cause all four engines to seize up? They look very good and clean. The oil looks clean.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

They are all soaking in Marvel Mystery oil right now. Possible tips? Possibly what happened?

Thanks in advance.

[shortline10]

Make sure their weren’t any mouse nest in the air boxes ?
Mouse piss is like liquid acid and will seize a piston .

[patriot1]

There was mice all in them. Should the marvel mystery oil get them unstuck? Thanks

[patriot1]

Barnboy: I totally agree about pics!! For some reason, I can't post them anymore since my computer updated.

[BarnBoy]

This thread is worthless without :pics::pics::pics: Let's see em Patriot!

[BarnBoy]

Barnboy: I totally agree about pics!! For some reason, I can't post them anymore since my computer updated.

Its probably easier to do it off your phone...it is for me anyway. Unless you don't have a smart phone. Saves the extra steps.

[Jim mac]

I've used mmo and trans fluid to free up stuck motors. matter of fact, my latest pos project sat at this guys yard for almost 20 years. I bought it for the forks and spark advance but he gave me the rest of the trike for 10 bucks including a motor sitting without a plug outdoors. ive filled the cylinder with trans fluid for the last week, it just broke free. So let it sit for a week, take off the pull start and use a breaker bar and socket and try to turn it over. my last 185s project was also stuck, couple days of soak and it freed up, runs great too. jim

[patriot1]

265633265634265635see what this does from my razor flip phone

[patriot1]

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[patriot1]

Can't tell much about the problem from those pics but I got em. Thanks Jim!!

[patriot1]

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[BarnBoy]

Looks good Patriot. Possible that the trailer leaked, moisture settled in there over the years. Best stuff for freeing stuck objects is Hagens brew. It's a 50/50 mix of acetone and diesel fuel, ATF, etc any thing oil. Shake it up a bit and let er soak, works wonders.

[patriot1]

I'm leaning toward rat piss. Rats had nested everywhere they could. Big nest. A lot of nest. I'm going to let it sit for a week like Jim suggested. I'll try to get pics of the other ones also.

Jim: How much torque did you put on your breaker bar? I've been worried about pushing too hard and breaking something.

[DAM shop]

Make sure their weren’t any mouse nest in the air boxes ?
Mouse piss is like liquid acid and will seize a piston .

No kidding? I didn’t know that Shortline

[Jim mac]

not too much torque, just push one way then the other. im using a real 1/2 breaker bar. jim

[ATC King]

It seems like a great reason for buying a bore scope/inspection camera. Those things are pretty darn affordable now. You can probably get one that'll work with your current cellular device (phone), through the charge port or wireless.

Doctors have sticking cameras into people's holes for a long time for a reason; it's better than doing the same with their hands. Go MD-evil on that stuff.




A lot of times, anything that is stuck from corrosion is going to be an oil burner if it's freed up anyway. Rust pitting on the cylinder and rings is going to let oil by. Worst case, moisture has completely permeated the engine and caused rust on bearing and gear surfaces, making it a time-bomb.

[MrConcdid]

Hey Patriot1,

I don't see how a mouse, even a little one could get passed the carb slide, into the intake, and piss down the valves hole, that just happen to be open X4 engines.
Very limber mice you have. It sounds to me the P.O. left the plugs out thinking he was doing the right thing for a extended length of time. IDk.
I have had better luck spraying P.B. Blaster down the plug hole and letting it sit a week (junkyard dog build), then using a breaker bar and socket to rock the engine slowly just a little bit forward them back, then forwards then back, on and on until I can make a full revolution. then add more lube and spin it again with a drill or the pull rope, to blow the crap out of them, also you can use compressed air through the plug hole and blow while spinning the engine by the pull rope, this clears the intake and exhaust of debris as the engine cycles and the valves open.
Very odd that all 4 are locked up. Maybe they were left open with/out a plug in a damp area or by the ocean. are the frames rusty?

You really need to take your time, it could be the difference in saving them all or 4x rebuilds. go slow.
Keep us posted.
MrC.

[patriot1]

All had plugs in them. Frames are solid, very little rust on them. A lot of the brake cables still work but the throttle cables (at least on the 200's (no letter) are frozen which makes rat piss sense.

What about freeing the 250sx's? Work the kicker?

Thanks

[shortline10]

The ammonia gases that mouse piss gives off will pass by the throttle slide and definitely seize up a cylinder .

[shortline10]

I would remove the timing cover on the left case and rotation the 17mm crank nut back and forth .



All had plugs in them. Frames are solid, very little rust on them. A lot of the brake cables still work but the throttle cables (at least on the 200's (no letter) are frozen which makes rat piss sense.

What about freeing the 250sx's? Work the kicker?

Thanks

[Homeless Dave]

I am going to agree with everyone saying that the rat piss did the damage. about a year and a half ago, I got an 85 250es that was siezed up. did everything you tried. I ended up taking off the cover on the left side that allows access to the 17mm bolt. Put a ratchet on it and got it to break free, then I worked it back and forth slowly. it was sized from rat piss...the airbox was full of nest, the metal filter cage was almost completely disintegrated, it looked as if it was at the bottom of the ocean for a hundred years. after I got it to turn over, it had zero compression. I tore the top end apart to find the rings and piston had become one from the rust. it might have been fine if the intake valve hadn't been open, but I had determined right away that it was, so I knew the engine was going to put up a fight.

[patriot1]

Thanks for all the advice and help guys. There is rust in places mice would be and looks perfect where mice would not be. I let them all sit again today except the first 200. I put a breaker bar on it and with very-very little torque, it moved a little clockwise but I think it was just the bolt and not the engine. (If that is possible?) The mmo that was soaking in the plug hole had leaked down so I refilled it to the top so I could guage it again tomorrow. This one is name Sinatra. (It might be dead like Sinatra)

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new problem-new thread-please advise there

[ATC King]

Wicked pissa thread.

[Jim mac]

with the breaker bar, move it forward and backwards a little at a time.
I got my 185 spinning real smooth yesterday, put a drill motor on the crank nut and got it spinning fast. unfortunately ately the valves not seated well, I can hear air past the intake. ive left wd40 and oil in the ports over night, I can feel suction with my hand over the intake port and spinning with a drill. Really doesn't seem like much compression on this motor. jim

[patriot1]

UPDATE ON RAT PACK:

Went to the shop today and after turning the lights on, I grabbed the breaker bar and went for the first 200 (Sinatra) and NOTHING!! I then went to the other 200 and began to try to move it clockwise first and NOTHING.

So, I went and beat on a set of forks from an 87 Big Red and NOTHING..

So, i then went to try and free up the pull starter from the 2nd 200 and NOTHING...

So then I thought about the 2 SX's (Sammy Davis and Dean Martin), which have only been soaking for two days. I loosened and removed the cap on Sammy and applied very little torque and it turned over and over and over again!! (More on Sammy later)

Then I high-fived my son and sang a hymn and moved on to Dean and same thing! Turned over very easily! I tried to remember everything MrC has said he does. I removed the tank and got it soaking first.
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Next, I remembered what shortline said about rats in the air box so I checked the air box. I am not positive that there wasnt a family of squirrels that were making it a home at one time:

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I then sprayed air through it while kicking it over. I felt air coming from the exhaust.

I hooked the battery charger up to it and...

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I found out the light worked but the switch didn't. I crossed the sylinoid and it turned over and sounded good doing it!

I needed a plug but didn't think I had one...Wait!! The totes the guy from Oklahoma gave me as part of a TRX70 deal that I havent really been able to look through. I opened the totes and started putting things on shelves and OMG!!! CHRISTMAS IN DIXIE!!!265659265660265661265662265663265664

I found a new plug in the bottom of the tote on the left. Installed it and sprayed starter fluid to see if I could get it to pop because I knew the carb would have to be cleaned. I crossed the sylinoid and heard a buzzing sound coming from the starter so I went and beat on my 250 es forks and still nothing so I decided to call it a day.

But it was a good day! Here are a couple of pics of Dean Martian:265666265667

[coolpool]

It will be quite the miracle to see all of these come back to life. I hope you got these for a song with all the efforts you've put in to them.....not to mention the parts that are pending. Might be worth parting one of each out to finance the other?

[Jim mac]

I've brought back worse. just give the penetrating oil a few days. problem with parting a complete machine, you sell off a few sought after parts and you end up with a incomplete trike taking up space. just go out and try spinning it both ways every day. if it doesn't have compression after it breaks free, a set of rings and gaskets is under 50 bucks. lap the valves jim

[Dirtcrasher]

4 stroke bottom ends are usually fine, but I'd pull the top ends off, clean and or replace the rings, hone the cylinder and oil the cam.

Freeing it up just gets things moving again, there's obviously some issues inside each motor...

[patriot1]

Well, today was unproductive and kinda frustrating.

Before I left yesterday, I sprayed the starter cam bolt? area with blaster and today when I got there the bolts turned in both 200s. I think they have moved a little bit before but not this easy, but it is only day 4 with Sinatra and day 3 with the other 200.

I removed the starter switch/button because the headlight buttons are frozen. I was going to replace the entire switch with one off a 250es and they had different plugs. So now I am trying to free the original switch up. I have sprayed it with contact cleaner and letting it soak. I think PS2 had a thread on rebuilding these but I have not had time to look for it.

I drained the metal rescue from the tank (no leaks-YAY!!) but it still had a few spots in it so I filled it back up and will let it sit for at least another day. It wasn't bad to begin with.


I am charging a part battery that is good and will put it on tomorrow and see what I can get it to do.
Coolpool: Yes: I agree that at least one will be parted out (Sammy Davis-more on that later) but these things are so complete that they really only need carbs and tires IF the engines turn out to be ok-and yes, I got them for a song. If I can use two to make one of each and have a runner of each-I'll be way ahead.

Jim: I'm trying! Thanks for the advice!

Dirtcrasher: I am thinking that I might have to end up removing the top ends on the 200s just to get them freed up. If it gets to that point, I'll probably just help barn boy with his 200 (no letter) build. Thanks for the mud flaps! You do great work!

Sorry no pictures today because I didn't make any seeable progress-just gained knowledge!!

[Jim mac]

transmission fluid works great as a penetrating oil. just fill the cylinder and let it sit a few days. jim

[patriot1]

Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose and sometimes it rains:

Neither 200 budged today-I will refill with ATF tomorrow and let it soak for a week or so.

I installed a spare battery on Dean Martin today and guess what?

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The neutral light works!

I hot wired the key ignition and totally unplugged the left side kill switch and crossed the solenoid and it turned over like a dream.

I checked for fire at the spark plug and had a beautiful blue arc so I sprayed some starter fluid in the air box and crossed the solenoid again and again she turned over like a dream....hmmm

I checked the compression and got this :(

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Not too good. Then I remembered a bike MrC had that had very little compression and he did a few things to it and it gained compression...I just didn't remember what all he did. I'll read up on that and check the valves tomorrow.

I then sprayed pb blaster down the plug hold and starter fluid down the gas line hose and air box and crossed the solenoid again and....It almost popped but not quite. It's going to start-just as sure as the sun is going to shine tomorrow,

I cleaned and lubed the left hand control switch. the buttons were frozen and I them all back moving and reinstalled it. With the key ignition hot wired, I hit the starter button and the solenoid clicked one time. hit it again and again-one click. Bad solenoid?

Tomorrow will bring something new-no doubt.

Thanks for all the tips and input. More on Sammy Davis later.

[BarnBoy]

Always check compression with throttle held wide open. Crank @ 7-8 times and thats about as good as you're gonna get. If you put some oil down the cyl, it may up the compression. But if it does, you have worn rings/cyl and need a rebuild. There is no quick easy fix, it either has good compression or not, and if you're at 50-60 psi right now...WITH throttle held open, it will not run and you've got a rebuild on your hands.

[Jim mac]

hopefully the valves out of adjustment. ive bought a 70 with low compression, loosened the valves and started right up. jim

[kb0nly]

At 60 psi my guess would be leaking valves... Quick and easy test, spin it around to top dead center, get a blow gun with a rubber tip on it, pull the plug and hold that tight into the plug hole and blow some air in, quick and dirty leak check, air blowing out the exhaust or carb and you know its a valve issue, and if thats the case other then checking the valve lash i would say its time to tear off the top end. Not all is lost, i have had plenty that the only thing wrong from sitting was a leaky valve. On my current 82 200E project one valve was partly open as it sat for 15 years, the seat and valve were rusty and pitted. A quick valve job on it and i went from 145psi to 160, and it runs great. Before it would run but it sputtered a lot and had a miss at idle due to the leaking valve.

Of course if you gotta pull the top end apart to fix the valves you might as well go through it all... But a quick and dirty hone job and some rings along with a valve job might bring it around. I did a lot of them like that and they have run for many more years after. Just depends on how much you want to put into it.

[patriot1]

Thanks KB

I attempted your air test today but did not have it at TDC, so that was a waste of time. I'll try if again tomorrow at TDC.

I then put it at TDC to check and adjust the valves. The intake valve was loose so I tightened it. Specs say to .08 mm but my closest feeler gauge is .073. Also, I might have messed up interpreting "tighten until there is slight resistance on the feeler gauge". Not sure if my "slight resistance" is the same as a guy who actually knows what they are doing.

I'm going to check the valves again tomorrow.

I did check compression after I adjusted the valves and it still read 60 psi so maybe a set of rings is inevitable-we'll see.

Still letting the 200s soak.

Gotta take the rack out tonight so she's happy and I can continue to work on trikes.

I'll redo today again tomorrow-maybe I'll get it right.

[MrConcdid]

I like the valves loose on a new startup after sitting. I want to make sure they seat and or knock off any carbon or rust or anything, that might be on them. Once it runs, the I reset them to spec. Just keep at it, you will get them freed up.
MrC.

[patriot1]

So...both 200's are still locked up. The cylinders have soaked in mmo for five-seven days and atf and acetone since. Still locked up.

I am thinking about putting some tires on it and trying to pull it and get it to unlock.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Advice? Jim?

Thanks!

[BarnBoy]

So...both 200's are still locked up. The cylinders have soaked in mmo for five-seven days and atf and acetone since. Still locked up.

I am thinking about putting some tires on it and trying to pull it and get it to unlock.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Advice? Jim?

Thanks!

I would rather not pull them to get them freed up but that may work. I would insert a screw driver or lever through the pullstart pulley, and give it a few whacks with a hammer this way and a few whacks the other way. Not terribly hard, but just get a bit of movement going, try and break the rust bond inside the cyl. But honestly, you may just have to pull the head and jug. You may get them freed up, but I can almost guarantee you'll need a bore and rings.

[patriot1]

Interesting day-Not really but...

So back wheels won't turn on the 200 either. And since the nuetral indicator is broken off and I am not sure it's in neutral and I have no tires to push it, I decide to check out the chain and the condition it is in.

Have you ever seen a nicer front axle/brake parts for an 81?

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Yeah, that's how nice this bike is where rats have NOT pissed!!!

So still contemplating buying a set of Deestones, I begin to check the chain again.

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And a little more...

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How the hell? Why?

Like King said "This is one pisser of a thread"..

[350for350]

I think that you may have found the reason the the rear hubs won't spin. I've had some that I had to cut the chain off of before they'd roll.

[patriot1]

I'm not a ratologist by no means but how did they even get in there? It was completely sealed. I probably took the chain cover off for the first time today.

[Jim mac]

on my 185 motor, I just used a 17mm socket on a breaker bar. give it a quick jerk instead of a slow pull to shock the rings off tje cylinder. might even hit it with a impact, not to tightened it up tight, just to chatter it both ways.
maybe cut the chain off first if your not sure your in neutral. jim

[patriot1]

Jim:

If I twist it left (counter clockwise) with any force it just loosens the nut. If I turn it clockwise it just tightens the nut if/when it turns at all.


Question: Do I have to take the engine completely out to take the top end off on an 81 200 (no letter)?

[Jim mac]

on my 185, with the breaker bar the nut didn't turn, luckily the motor spun. problem i had using a screwdriver thru the cage, the cage wanted to distort. the motor does have to come out to pull the top end off. but its really only like about a 30 min job at most to yank a motor if the bikes complete. jim

[MrConcdid]

Yes full removal.
I have 3ft pry bar I insert between the cogs of the recoil ring. This gives me leverage. Remove the chain verify neutral. Then try the pry bar. It may be more than just locked up. Remove the engine and tear the top end off.
Timing chain could be bound up, or piston melted who knows at this point. It should of freed up by now.

[MrConcdid]

I have 3 in right now myself
1 a 200e leaky valves no compression
2 200es intake valve is hanging open
3 200es cylinder is rusted, piston moves but slowly.this

Yours may be a 2 ok bikes becomes 1 really good bike and the other becomes parts bikes.
You dont have to rebuild them all. Weigh out your options.

[patriot1]

I'm going to cut the chain off today like 350 said and see what happens. Whatever it is that's got it locked up has both the 200s locked up. The 2 250sx's weren't hard to get unlocked but of course, they don't have chains so we'll see.

[patriot1]

So... a little update

Slow but progress but first see why I am so interested in these bikes:

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See how easy it is to read the engine number? See how little the sprocket is worn? See how little wear is on the foot pegs?

I cut the chain off today and front sprocket was rusty but moved freely and I verified neutral. I put an 18 inch stilson on the axle and it moved like butter (eventually).

I was going to remove the engine and according to the manual-the first thing to take off was the exhaust. Nuts came off very easily so I thought "something is not right", couldnt figure out what so I sprayed everything with blaster and will probably remove the engine tomorrow.

I opened the exhaust valve cover and everything looked new. I took the cage off the rotor and everything looked very rusty.

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And yes, I tried to turn the motor over and "nothing"

It"ll probably come out tomorrow.

Thanks for the help!!

[atcmatt]

So strange that so many parts look good and so many look trashed. It’s like it was squirted with some sort of corrosive liquid in spots!?

[patriot1]

Yes atcmatt: based on suspicion and knowledge of shortline-rat piss is the guilty culprit to blame! What's perplexing is how much and locations. Might have been beer drinking rats? How did so much get into the recoil? How did they nest up in the enclosed and sealed drive chain area?

These bikes have a "crank case cooler" (probably not the right name) that I am going to look at today. It's a 1/2 inch hose that runs from the bottom of the engine to a oil filter looking thing. Not doubt rats could have got in there as well.

One more thing that I find odd-I have not noticed not one chewed wire anywhere on this bike.

[shortline10]

Quote “ One more thing that I find odd-I have not noticed not one chewed wire anywhere on this bike. “

That’s because the wire sheath is pre vegetable coated crap that’s used on the newer machine’s .

[patriot1]

"I like to start off with something funny" Joel Osteen

"You can't make this stuff up" Jeff Foxworthy

Some of you know that I am blessed enough to be able to use an old Vo-Ag school building to work on my projects. Around the room there are old wooden toolboxes all labeled ie: wood working hand tools, cold steel, arc welding and:

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That's my people-East Arkansas!!

So update:

Going from a Haynes manual and I don't like it as well as a Clymer to pull the engine out. Haynes is small print and hard for me to read.

Everything went well and I could not believe how easy all the bolts came out. Everything until I went to war with the exhaust.

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I won

Next the carb just because it's interesting:

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Slim shady

Next the engine is out!

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And crusty as hell!

I should have stopped when i got it out, I really needed to go home but I couldn't wait to see what was inside so I kept going until:

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I screwed up the screw on the right. Then I decided to do something else.


Shortline: I can tell you have way more experience at this than me. What should I expect next?

More on Sammy to come.

[Jim mac]

https://www.google.com/aclk?sa=l&ai=DChcSEwinque-tJHuAhV3IK0GHR-ECFIYABAFGgJwdg&sig=AOD64_3cph2b9pi8usfT4VyRlC6HBEJtng&ctype=5&q=&ved=2ahUKEwjh6uG-tJHuAhXYs54KHVALDKsQwg96BAgCECw&adurl=
I use one of these on any screw thats been in there for awhile, spray it with pb blaster for a day, hit it with a hammer. it might mess the screw up if its really stuck but usually the screw comes out. jim

[patriot1]

I tried with one yesterday Jim. Didn't work so I decided to let it soak. Hopefully will be able to open it up today and see what I am working with.

[ATC King]

For a stripped Phillips/JIS screw, you can cut a slot in in, then use a flat tip in a impact driver.

Don't cut too deep or the head will split and make sure to cut square so the tip doesn't cant out.

[patriot1]

The manual say "remove the dowl pin" I don't see one. I can't get the rest of the pulse generator out (??Is that even what it's called???) What am I missing?

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Anything else?

[shortline10]

That whole advancer pulls off the camshaft , might be stuck .

[atcmatt]

JIS screw drivers are the best. Impact series have saved me so many headaches. They are worth every cent and more!

[ATC King]

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That's my people-East Arkansas!!



"Oh Boy" Scott Bakula

"Shazam!" Jim Nabors

[oscarmayer]

then dirty rats!!!! ARGH!!!!!

[oscarmayer]

The manual say "remove the dowl pin" I don't see one. I can't get the rest of the pulse generator out (??Is that even what it's called???) What am I missing?

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Anything else?

yep! the "sleeve" looking thing should be removed as it is stuck on the cam shaft itself. good thing these are a dime a dozen for parts! yours looks trashed.

[jth0907]

Even though the bottom end is full of clean oil without running periodically the head and piston have most certainly gone dry. Trailers are ok storage but I noticed in certain temperatures and conditions there can be condensation which doesn't go away easily. That will most certainly get in the motors. They probably are not destroyed at all but I bet you will have to open the top ends to get them cleaned up.

[patriot1]

Well, I did end up making a little progress yesterday

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I started with (above) and got to this (below)

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At which point I remembered Dirtccrasher saying in another thread "Don't force it"; at which time I proceeded to get help from this board and forced it to get to this:

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and eventually this:

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The timing chain was very tight. I worry about being able to set the timing correctly if I ever get it all back together but I am sure I will.

I took pictures of the valves but you can't really see anything. The intake valve is rusted-everything else looks fine.

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The top comes off today!

Thanks for the help.

[patriot1]

Slowly coming apart-Very little time to work on Sinatra:

So I got the cylinder head cover off yesterday:

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Then today I was able to remove the bolt under the camshaft and was able to remove the head:

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And the moment we've all been waiting for::

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Rusty as a 42 Ford! So I cleaned it up a little and finally got the sleeve loose with alot of light tapping from a rubber mallet and the ultimate sin of driving a 2 inch paint scraper in between

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Never could get the piston unstuck so I left it soaking in a shot of mmo, a shot of acetone, a spray of pb blaster, a shot of atf and another shot of atf:

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It'll be a week before I can get back to it so what do I need to order? Rings? Piston and rings? Rings, piston and cylinder? Piston, rings and get my cylinder bored for $60?

Thoughts on getting the piston unstuck?

Appreciate all!! Hope I didn't miss anything.

[Jim mac]

maybe pour out the liquid and hit the piston top around the rings with a propane torch? I'd just have it bored, ebay piston and ring kit is cheap enough. Get a valve job done at the same time and should be good for the next ten years. jim

[patriot1]

Well...back at it today finally...and...

200 (no letter) piston still stuck after soaking in a toxic anti-seize mixture for the last 7 days

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Going to try a little heat tomorrow. (thanks Jim)

So I move to the 250sx of the RatPack (Dean Martin) and try my new valve adjuster (which didn't work because it wouldn't fit and I couldn't turn it with my hand)

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Don't buy these

So, I sit on my US90 and decide to turn the valve adjuster with a pair of long needle nose and I loosened it up a couple of turns (because MrC of MrC's garage fame said he likes valves loose for initial start)

A little starter fluid from the local Dollar General and boo-yah! First a pop, then a bust off and then a little run!! It was the preverbal good golf shot that I needed to keep me in the game.

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Hope I have a little more time tomorrow! Can't wait!

[350for350]

On the 200, maybe you could try lifting the cylinder as far as you can again and putting some wood blocks underneath it to hold it off of the case. Then try gently tapping the top of the piston to see if it will move down. Be sure to try to cover the opening in the case then best that you can.

[patriot1]

Thanks 350. Called myself trying that but it never broke free, probably "tapped" it harder than I should've.

[MrConcdid]

Great project, these are really making you work for it, I would still like to know the back story, how 1 guy ended up with 4 locked up machines (grenaded).
I am glad you found something useful from my videos, I am doing 1 a week now.
Hearing one bust off for the first time after you work on it is the closest thing to giving birth.
ok, may be not, but you know what I mean, its a great feeling of accomplishment.
Great job, keep digging
MrC.

[patriot1]

Thanks MrC, but to be honest, Barnboy and myself are going to need another 3WW shoutout on one of your vids before we watch many more! JK

So..Very good day today (and from what I mean by "day" is the hour or so that I get to work on the trikes)

Dean Martin is starting and running on gas. Pretty cool; still needs carb cleaned and recheck compression before I buy tires

I also got an 86 200x started that I have not talked about, but glad it's running-to some extent anyway: it's being sold tomorrow. Kinda hate to let it go but $$$$$

And then with a few taps, a few pretty good hits and a little heat (per Jim Mac):

266228266228

It Comes apart!!

266229266230266231

Ta Da!! Good day!

[patriot1]

Little help guys?

266237

How does this come off? My Haynes manual doesnt cover this.

[350for350]

I've only been into the rear drum brakes on a couple of trikes and am far from being an expert. Is there a circlip on the axle between the cover and the threads? It kind of looks like it. Warning:I may be wrong.

[Jim mac]

99% sure it splined and the drum slides off after removing the 2 nuts. you can prop up the rear, put a wooden block on the threads and smack it toward the sprocket side. jim

[patriot1]

Thanks guys, I don't think it's a circlip, I'll try beating it tomorrow! Should be fun lol

[Jim mac]

I should have said the axle will slip out to the left (as your sitting on the trike) when the drum clears the splines it slips off. jim

[patriot1]

Thanks guys: Worked like a charm and came right out

266304266308

Brakes, bearings and sprocket all look good so I don't think I will replace any of them except maybe the bearings:

266305266306266307

Wasn't planning on doing all this to this bike but since the engine is out and I am waiting on the piston, I figured that I would clean up the parts and paint the frame. "IF" I can get the engine back together and timed right and all, this will end up being a good bike.

[patriot1]

Update:

I've finally got everything torn down and the frame primed yesterday. Hopefully get it painted today, let it cure overnight and start putting stuff back together tomorrow.

266403266404

I've got rims and some other things painted and ready to be put back to use:

266405266406

And finally cleaning plastics. I found through trial and error that the wheel pictured works best to start on these plastics. Just as step one followed by a ton of sanding and buffing.

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And this picture is for Barnboy:

266410

I am waiting on the piston to get here from sledpartsguy on ebay. I found a guy who has a machine shop but he really doesn't work on stuff anymore. I asked him if he had the equipment and know how to bore an atv cylinder for me and he acted like he didn't want to. He asked me what kind of ATV and I told him it was a three wheeler and he got super excited and said "Yes!! I used to do those all the time! I am looking forward to it!"

I thought that was pretty cool!

[patriot1]

Started putting it back together today. Coming along nicely:

I think I have the front bearings figured out on re-install. cylinder is being bored by a super cool guy who asked me to find him a 90-said he had one with og tires back in the day. He was excited that I was into three-wheelers and was happy to help me with the project.

266515

[MrConcdid]

Looking good Patriot1
MrC.

[patriot1]

Real Factual News Update:

266577266578

Soulshine is better than Moonshine

Everything is going back together nicely! I am taking the time to clean and polish everything before I put it back on, Still need to hit the axle one more time (at least)

266579

Taped over and saved this because I think these are cool. Somehow at least 4-5 of my bikes have them:

266580

Question of the day: Underside of forks has 7/14 stamped in it. Why?

266581

Bad news of the day:

Man who is boring my cylinder called today and said that it has a rust pit that he can feel about halfway up (where the piston was stuck). I accidentally bought a .30 over a piston instead of a .10 over like I should have normally done for first bore but it was still not enough. I had to buy another bigger piston. If anyone has a cylinder that hasn't been bored or bored .30 over-let me know.

Still sanding on the front fender. I have successfully mounted two of the three tires on the split rims-I was worried they would leak but so far-so good.

[patriot1]

Nothing exciting-just small progress:

266687266688

Still waiting on new piston to get here-It'll be Tuesday at the earliest and snow might prevent me from getting it to the machine shop-we'll see.

I totally messed up on front fender. Deep scratches for too course paper. Lesson learned-won't happen again. Although not perfect by any means, I am happy with how the rears plastics are coming along.:

266689

Needing a headlight and pulse generator if anybody has one-pm me. Thanks guys

[patriot1]

Slowly but surely:

267020

Got the engine in last night and carb rebuilt and installed today. We'll see if it'll run this weekend. Hopefully Sinatra will sing again!

[patriot1]

So... I got the engine in, carb clean, gas to it and pulled the cord and nothing at all. I couldnt even get it to hit with starter fluid. I checked compression-good. I checked for spark-awesome. Fuel, fire and compression and nothing. I phoned a friend and then thought about it for a couple of weeks.

Got my son to pull me and it ran very strong but extremely rough. I rode for a few minutes and then back to the shop. Pulled the cord and nothing. Hit it with the drill and nothing. It was very hard to pull.

So I thought some more over the next couple of weeks. I had my son pull me again and I rode it for a few minutes until it died, so we pushed it back into the shop and let it sit and I thought. The new spark plug was heavily coated with black.

I was inspired by Jim Mac and decided to 'Start over". I made sure of my ground because I had painted the frame. I removed the CDI cover and ....

267423267424

The cam bolt was broken and the pin was sheared...HMMMM? I have no idea?

So I checked the timing marks and put in another Advancer from a parts bike-second pull and BOO-YAH!!! Sinatra sings again!!! Runs like new money!!! Have to put the rest back together now.

[MrConcdid]

That's why we do it! What grit paper worked best for the sun dried fenders?

Congrats Patriot1

Mrc_Builds

[patriot1]

Mr C

Thank you and thanks for the help. I think you should add a "Saturday call from Arkansas" segment to your show!!lol I get the big stuff-it's the little things that slow me down.

I started with hand sanding (which is for the birds) and then I remembered a headlight kit that my son had and used it on my drill-not a bad job at all. Start at 400 and go up then polish with rubbing compound (because I had some) then some plastix. You might have to do it twice. The more the better.

This has been a challenge that I thought would be easy, but nothing ever is as simple as it seems on youtube lol.

[patriot1]

So while I was taking time to think about Sinatra, I would piddle with Dean Martin. Remember the engine was locked up and it looked like this:

267434

I freed the engine and put some fire to it and got it to start on starter fluid. So I ordered some tires. Cleaned the tank and cleaned the carb.

Front brake was locked up so I had to battle that beast and replaced them.

Starts and runs and rides like brand new!! Changed all the fluids and they all looked clean. Adjusted the valves.

This is a very very low hour bike that was put away and forgotten about.

I need to clean it up and put a seat cover on it, but man it's nice. Brakes, lights, everything works.

267435267436267437267438

[patriot1]

267456

And today we rode!!

SX (Dean Martin) smokes a little and doesnt have much top end power. Probably needs a top end. Who knows?

200 (Sinatra) needs carb cleaned, chain guard clips, head light, seat recovered, grips and who knows what else?

But today we rode!!

[patriot1]

So...this happened today:

267491267492267493267494267495

Kinda proud it turned out as well as it did. Kinda surprised it turned out at all!!!

More on Sammy later.

[patriot1]

So, in the beginning, I decided to start with the ATC200 because I wanted one to go through all the way and the 81 200 is simple and would not be as involved as say a 250es or sx. The original 200 (Sinatra) is about 95% complete-I need a headlight but I think that I have that worked out. So, I started working on Jessie. (Jessie was not a member of the Rat Pack but I only know of three members of the Rat Pack and Frank and Jessie go together.

268198

For Jessie, I found and bought a parts bike to save money. Tires alone would pay for the parts bike:

268199

Until the wheels turned out to be switched to 3 hole...So I bought new tires but still have a good parts bike maybe.

268200

so the work began. Engine was seized and so I beat the piston out and sent the cylinder to the machine shop guy. It should be done by this weekend. Rims painted and tires mounted. I went with tubes this time. Frame painted and forks disassembled and cleaned. All new bearings:

Remember the SX? Dean Martin? I've got an update on that one too but can't seem to upload pictures of it.

268201

Anyway...Cheers!!!

[floydechoes2000]

Very cool Patriot, it's nice to see them get saved!

[patriot1]

Thanks guys: I think that I'm going to be able to save 3 of the 4. I enjoy the process of working through them.

More on Sammy later.

[Jim mac]

you knkq next up will be rebuilding your parts bike right? jim

[patriot1]

No way possible Jim! I'll spend my time on something with suspension or maybe start on my blue 110-I have cool ideas for that one.

Just an update: I didn't get the cylinder back from the machine shop so I have been working on everything else.

268225

Tires mounted and forks cleaned and bearings replaced

268226

front fender sanded and cleaned but still need to get in the edges. New decals also.

268227

Remember Dean Martin?

Ok, now for a serious question that I need a little help with. It's kind of personal so I understand if you don't want to share but...

What do yall do with for your rusty nuts?

268228

I know these are bolts but same difference. I have tried vinegar, muric acid, baking soda, etc. I can get them clean but they seem to rust back up. Should I try to run them through an ultrasonic cleaner? I didn't spend as much time on these as I should have but give me tips.

Go Hogs

[floydechoes2000]

Look into zinc coating if you want to do it right, clear coat or silver paint will help it look nice for a little while longer than leaving them bare though.

[patriot1]

New Day-New Challenge

Remember Frank Sinatra? The 81 200 (no letter) that I brought back but couldn't find a headlight for? Well....It was the best machine in the stable, I even took it to the mountains to ride because it was the machine that I had the most faith in.

Well...I went to ride it over the weekend and it wouldn't start. Checked for spark and no fire. Checked the off/on//off switch and it felt like moving water so I figured the switch was bad.

Luckily, having two of the same bikes, I can try different switches. I changed the off/on/off switch and still no fire.

Changed the CDI-No fire

Changed the coil and wire-no fire

Of course I checked all grounds. I don't think this bike even has a fuse on it?

Then I remembered my dad teaching me to get a push mower firing by sanding the flywheel. I looked and of course the flywheel was rusty in places and I figure the stator could be bad.

Am I on the right track or did I miss something? (I did not try a new plug which I will do before I do anything else.)

[350for350]

I do think that you're on the right path. I'm thing that it could be your source coil in the stator. My AutoX happens to have the exact same engine (81 ATC200). A couple of years ago, I was going on a weekend riding/camping trip. Thursday evening, I fired it up just like normal and rode it into my trailer. Saturday morning, when it was time to ride, it wouldn't attempt to fire. It turned out to be the source coil. I'm not saying that there was a problem with them in the 81 ATC200, just that everything else seems to have checked out so that would be my guess.

[patriot1]

So...I took the flywheel off and cleaned the rust off of it. I looked in the manual to see how to check the stator. It said "Use a multi meter and connect the red/black wire to the red lead on the multi meter and ground the black on the engine. It should read between 200 and 400 ohms.

I looked and I didn't have a red/black wire coming out the engine but I did have a black one with red on the top by the clip. I did as the manual said and it tested at 195 ohms.

Not sure if I was doing it right, I asked McC how to test the stator. He said "Use a multi meter and connect the red/black wire to the red lead on the multi meter and ground the black on the engine. It should read between 200 and 400 ohms." lol (just like the manual

So I thought, Let me check the other stators on the other bikes. Using the same method, they all tested to read 195 ohms. Could they all three be bad? Probably not but possible. Could I be testing them wrong? Very possible.

I decided to check the coils while I had the multi meter out. All tested fine on primary test but all said 1 on secondary. Could they all three be bad too? Probably not but possible. Could I be testing them wrong? Very possible.

I am going to do a Jim Mack "start over from the beginning".

thoughts?

[350for350]

Did you happen to test the coils again without the spark plug boots on the wires? Sometimes a bad boot will throw readings off and/or cause it to not run. That stator coil testing at just 5 ohms low doesn't seem like it would keep it from running, but it is below specs. On my 1983 185S, the coil in the stator tests at 195 ohms while the manual calls for 245 (IIRC). I have a new coil to install, but I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. Ignore those manuals that tell you that you have to replace the entire stator if it ohms out bad. My previously mentioned AutoX runs just fine after only replacing the source coil. That is if I can remember to replace the CDI box that I stole to try to get the 185 going BEFORE I load it up and take it on a riding trip.:crazy:

[patriot1]

268375

Bought a new coil. Still no fire. WTH (Stator on the way)

268376

Still no word from machine shop about the cylinder.

So I cleaned the carb and went riding on this bad boy!

268377

Too much fun but not part of the Rat Pack so I worked on Dean Martin.

268378

I was told that I needed exercise so I took Dean to the track:

268379

I checked Sammy for the elusive 250sx tail light and robbed him of it. How many 85's have the tail light and tool box with tool kit?

268380268381

I know the tail light is crooked but it'll be ok.

and then I sanded and polished the headlight in anticipation for the headlight guard. rushed and didnt do a good job. I should have taken a before picture. It was rough.

268382

[ATC King]

My experience with stator testing has been that checking the voltage while cranking is more accurate than checking resistance.

The reason is that resistance is with no load and doesn't actually tell anything about the performance of the stator. The magnet wire used on stators has a very thin coating of insulation and as that ages over the years, it can break down to where it may even check out OK with resistance but when asked to produce voltage output, it fails because there is shorting inside the windings that won't allow it to provide the voltage necessary.

The source and trigger coil both produce a voltage. The source coil to charge the CDI and the trigger coil to fire it.

I just checked in on this thread and don't remember exactly what voltage you should expect but I think it's been mentioned on this forum before. It's certainly talked about on many other small engine forums.

It would probably be good to have a thread just to cover what people measure theirs at on various machines. Enough responses and a sticky would be even better.

And...NEW parts can always mean Never Even Worked 'parts'. That NEW part tunnel vision really can be a PITA.

[patriot1]

350:

Yes, I took the boot off and even cut an inch off to expose more wire for a better connection. (tip from shortline on a different thread)

King:

As always-thank you. New (but chinese) stator will be here by this weekend and hopefully i'll get it going. I think that its just something simple that I am missing. It doesn't make since to me that three tested stators all tested the same (195), Theres a better chance that all three are good rather than all three being bad, Anyway-live and learn.

In the mean time:

268383268384

You can't have an SX with a tail light without. a headlight guard. I also got the cylinder for Jesse back today, so hopefully that will come together soon.

[ATC King]

I checked the voltage on my 185S source and trigger coil and it was 24.56 VAC for the source and .139 VAC for the trigger. It may be a little low for the trigger but this is a one pull engine. Just let it set for half a year an it started on the second pull.

If you're still having problems, don't forget the spark plug cap has a resistor built into it. They can go out and I've had one do so.

[patriot1]

Thanks King, I will check VAC this weekend.

Tell me about stators. I got a new (chinese) in the mail today and went to swap it for the original. Check it out:

268398268399268400

The new one has a yellow wire coming out of it whereas the old one does not. ???

A) totally wrong part?
B) just cut the yellow wire off the new one?
C) Shoot it?
D) All the above?

Thanks for the help

[shortline10]

Ground the yellow wire to the stator screw , solder the other wire to the source wire .

[patriot1]

So when I replaced the stator with the chinese one and it didn't work, I decided to just give up, push it to the side and when I get the other 200 running I can interchange parts that I know will work.

At this point I had replaced the stator, tried three different coils, three on/off switches, two cdi boxes, checked the clearance on the pick up, took it apart to make sure timing was in the correct position and God knows what else. I decided to put original parts back on it, but it was just easier to put the stator off the parts bike, so that is what I did. Then I took the new Chinese coil off and put the one on it from the parts bike. Still nothing and getting ready to push it into the corner. Then just for fun I put a 3rd CDI on it and THE CLOUDS PARTED, THE SUN CAME OUT AND THE ANGELS SANG A HYMN...

I got fire!!! Started and ran like new. I checked the valves since I had it torn down that far and they were still in spec. I realized that I had the wrong spark plug in it also. Started putting stuff back together and did some sanding work on the front fender that I messed up the first time.

Then today, feeling spiritual because of my good fortune:

268427268428

I saw the light! I saw the light! No more darkness-no more night.

That was a very difficult thing to find but I ended up with most of the parts to two of them.

Thanks for everyones help. Have a good week!

[patriot1]

268565

Still finishing this but in the meantime on the other 200 (no letter)...



So I gave got my cylinder back from the machine shop. I got the piston and cylinder put on, no problem. I went out today after work and was hoping to put the rest together but when I put the cylinder head cover on-my exhaust valve would not move.

TDC-check

Valves loose-check

lobes down-check

Possible problems: I torqued the bolts down too far? (long story and just a possibility-I can't hear as well as I could)

Also: I had to use a rubber hammer to get the cover to seat correctly. I found the odd but figured it might have been rust on a dowel pin.

I quit and came home at that point to ask for help. Please excuse the bad pictures. My lens cover is broken and my camera doesn't focus well.

Also excuse the rust and rvt.

268561

will not budge

268562

Intake is loose

268563

TDC

268564

lobes down-dots lined up

What have I missed? Why is the rocker on the exhaust valve not moving? It did move before I tightened it down.

[ATC King]

When it comes to the electrical stuff, if you have known good OEM parts, you may want to stick those back for diagnostic use only. I say that because the OE stuff is dang old and it'll all go out sooner or later so just using it for diagnostics/swaptronics is really a money saver.

Everything besides the CDI is pretty easy to diagnose. It's always nice to have a good CDI in the toolbox for testing.

[patriot1]

Thanks King. I finally got fire awhile back. That 200ATC (no letter) (Sinatra) is running good again.

On the other 200ATC (no letter) (Jessie) I made a horrendous rookie mistake. I thought the head cover would not seat because of the dowel pins so I forced it. I knew better but I did it anyway-life lesson-don't force it!

268647

The camshaft bearing that fits in the hole wasn't in the hole. I knew to check that but didnt think. Anyway...I screwed up that head. Thank goodness for the parts bike! I am now back on track. I got the engine reassembled and put in the bike. The parts bike head was painted a very persistant red so I got my first try at partial engine painting.

268648

I am resisting an easy chinese carb and figure that if i can clean and make this one run then I can clean and make any of them good. Maybe?

268649

We'll see...

I wire wheeled, sanded and painted the exhaust today. I really hated painting exhaust that was still black from 1981.

Hopefully I'll be able to see if it will run soon!

Thanks to everyone for the help!

[350for350]

Most of the time, those Chinese carbs don't seem to be easy for very long. OEM is always better as far as I'm concerned. If I was buying trike, getting them to run, and then reselling them, I'd probably use the Chinese carbs, but I don't seem to do that. I seem to keep them around as long as I can.

[patriot1]

Well...I had the original carb soaking and found one that I have no idea where it came from and now

268666

We have a runner!!! It was running rough so I ordered a chinese for quickness purposes

Plugged on the Chinese carb and still running rough...Checked and thought and then noticed this trying to escape the exhaust:

268667

What is that? Let us explore:

268668268669

Wow. Was I surprised? Not really-nothing surprises me after I opened the airbox:

268670

It runs much better when I got the pipe cleaned out but I realize that I probably didn't get it all. I'm glad the rats had fun. Now it is time to tackle this chore:

268671

Which I started the process yesterday:

268672

About 1/2 way there:

268673

I just don't like the idea of painting plastics. I'm sure some guys can do it well but I don't like it. I don't like sanding these for hours either but ....

Almost there. The hard part is done hopefully.

Thanks for all the help and advice guys.

[ATC King]

Dang plugged exhaust will get you everytime.

Got to look in both ends when living somewhere that has hole plugging critters. Maybe leave the baffle out and ride it hard for a bit to burn/purge whatever's left.


Ugh; sanding plastics. That's the best option if you can achieve a reasonable finish. You have to take the time to blend all the scratches while switching to finer sandpaper or have to start again. If there is crazing that's too deep to completely sand out, I don't hesitate to paint them. Properly applied paint will hold up very well and it protects the plastic from further sun damage.

You've probably had some old plastics that someone spray painted decades ago and found out just how tenacious that can be when trying to remove. It's like after enough time, the chemical bond is just as strong as if it were molded in.

Saving the OE plastics is worth the effort though. Nothing fits or looks like they do.

[patriot1]

Thanks King. It was full of stuff. I am leaving the baffle out until I ride it a few miles. I cleaned out what i could and it's running much smoother now.

With the original tank not having a lid on it, the original tank was rusted out beyond repair. (at least with my skill set)

But that is the beauty of parts bikes!!

268809268810

So the parts bike tank was rough as well. I let Metal Rescue soak inside it for a few days and it didn't leak!! I was pleasantly surprised. I thought I was going to have to do a full sanding and repainting and new decals (and I still might) but with a little wet sanding, rubbing compound and some polish and buffing:

268811268812268813268814

Yes, I know it's not new but I like the petina. It adds character. Honda used the best paint!

More on Sammy later...

[knappyfeet]

The plastics are looking good!

I'm with you...and I'm in the same boat...I hate doing them.

[patriot1]

Thanks Knappy, pictures are always better than reality though!

What really does (or eventually will) look good is the newest (and most expensive) 40 years old NOS headlight.

268820268821

After an expensive trip to partszilla.com this morning for hardware, I decided to try my hand at plating again (2nd attempt-I never mentioned the first...)

268822

Top is condition before, bottom is after. I'm satisfied but i know they are not great. I will continue to get better.

And after all that it was time for a maiden voyage for James:

268823268824268825

A few issues but I am getting them worked out. 3rd pic reminds me of "I like big butts and I can not lie" lol

Now for a few questions, as always, your advice is very much appreciated.

Question #1

268826

I had oil leaking from here so I tightened it up pretty tight. I know that I will have to go back and re torque the head bolts but why is this still leaking?

Question #2

268827

The manual says "loosen the bottom bolt but not the top 6mm bolt and the tensioner will self adjust"; Well, when I loosen the bottom bolt the top bolt turns too (duh). Sorry. if this is a dumb question but is that ok to set tension on the cam chain?

Question 3

268825

When hooking up the tail light, the original bulb worked and then stopped working quickly. I replaced the old bulb with a new one and it was bright but only lasted a few seconds. What is causing the tail light bulbs to blow?

TIA and Merry Christmas from the RatPack:

268828

Dean Martin, Frank Sinatra and Jessie (More on Sammy later)

[ATC King]

On the cam chain tensioner, they're often stuck/worn and the specified way to adjust tension won't work.

Under that top bolt is a plunger, and inside of that plunger are bolt threads. I don't remember the exact size, but something like 4mm or 6mm. You'd set the engine to TDC on compression and using a bolt threaded into that plunger, gently lift up then tighten the set nut. It's just a manual way of doing it.

I never have had good results doing it the specified way. Always had camchain noise doing it like that. These things are old and the spring in there that's supposed to set tension is likely weak and with whatever goop from the years has formed on the mechanism, they just don't seem to work as intended.



Albeit expensive, good score on that headlight. In good condition, the headlights on these aren't that bad and are totally sufficeint to ride a night with considering the lower speeds these run at.