ATC110 Suspension Seat

[ATC King]

A 110 I bought earlier this year, had a trashed seat pan. It was held together by duck tape more than metal; a total write-off.

I've been out of the 110 circles for a bit and thought a used seat pan wouldn't be too expensive. Wrong.


These aren't exactly super sought after trikes. They're common and nothing special trikewise. No way I'm paying through my nose for a used, partially trashed, seat pan for one of these. A used pan I'll have to make minor repairs to and rivet the cover on anyway; no thanks.


My 110 is in good shape for a rider, but not good enough to drop double the purchase price on a semi-junk seat pan. So...



...I thunk outside the box and came up with an idear.



The 110 fenders/seat are simply held on by the brackets, which all bolt onto the fenders/seat pan. That's pretty simple, just make some plates that'll allow the brackets to bolt to the fenders without the seat pan.

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For anyone breathing heavily, those are not melted/burnt spots on the fenders. That discoloration is from the lockjaw seat pan. After a tack weld, it's pulled off for final welding.


That was all done with strap; nothing special, and that's the goal. I'm not trying to go idiotic on the complexity of this.

I was thinking about using a bicycle rear shock, but at max angle (going by 30 degrees), that still puts the seat too high. The other option would be to lay the shock down by using a linkage system, and that goes back to not getting stupid complicated with this project. A linkage system would require figuring out the geometry/math of it all, spring rate, travel, and a whole bunch of stuff that isn't worth two inches of travel. That would add more wear points and be heavier too.

I had a bicycle shock in hand while figuring this all out. Time spent holding, looking, and using angle finder.


The other option is an air bag/spring. I have one from an 18 wheeler cab that a friend gave me to try for this, but it's still too long when compressed.

I found that TC Bros sells an air spring for chopper seats that is perfect for this build, but the price is putting it on hold for the moment. I've been unemployed for a year, so I'm doing the wobbly wheel, shopping cart version (burning plastic in a burn barrel for warmth edition).

The TC Bros air spring.
http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/air-powered-spring.html
http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/650x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/1/1/119-0088.jpg


After turning to YouTube for some inspiration, I found this for the squishy function...

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Anyone who knows what it is, raise your hand. It rhymes with dong, like the sound a bell makes or Vietnamese currency. Ask you wife about what her dog likes (I bought it at a pet store). There are some Harley riders who love this black rubber. Have I covered all the innuendo?



Everything aside, with the current mounts, the fender is solid on the trike. I rode it around, standing up, but that super sucks on a 110 because they're too small for an adult. The bars are at my knees and at any moment I feel like I'll go over the bars or loop it out. Part of this suspension seat build is to build a taller seat so the trike feels more comfortable for a taller rider. There is not a 'desert' or tall seat available for the 110 AFAIK. I totally don't get how adults are riding 70's around. Maybe it's like midget porn.

[207wheelin]

It's a Kong dog toy. My old hound was given one when she was a puppy. They are indestructible.

[ATC King]

Yep!

I was looking for something to use on a suspension seat and got to looking on the interweb. I found that some Harley riders with the police bikes wanted to ditch the seat's air ride for one reason or another, and some posted videos on YouTube about their solution. One guy says in his video that he later removed the Kong, because he thought it wasn't offering enough support and caused the pivot and bracket on his cruiser to break/bend. I don't know about that, but I'm giving it a whirl on this build anyway.

One guy used a red one, and like one video commenter, commented, it kind of looks like a hemorrhoid when squished. Maybe that person was a proctologist, or not, but I can't shake that mental image, so I got the black one, which is stiffer.


These are hollow, for anyone who doesn't know. They're meant to hold treats, so the dog will play with it longer. When used in the way I'm going to, they kind of collapse into themselves, which makes them better than a solid piece of rubber and actually provides some travel. They're almost like open elastomers used in bicycle and recumbent trike suspensions.

I'm not so certain the T-shirts Kong sells are something I'd want to wear in public. To most people, it'll probably look like you're proud of your big doodoos, or, a user of butt plugs. Either way...

https://shop.kongcompany.com/collections/all-products/products/short-sleeve-t-shirt
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0447/3185/9111/products/Redshortsleeve_480x.jpg?v=1606261145
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0447/3185/9111/products/RedShirtFront_8f545ea3-448b-4cc2-8e01-9afff4250beb_480x.jpg?v=1606261145


I do have to say this is on hold for the next week. I've been getting in some much needed local traveling, and plan to do a day or two more before the year is out. I've been to four state parks in the last couple days, and I think one or two more before the year is out will have me feeling better about 2021.

[207wheelin]

Happy New Year ATC King hope your enjoying your state park tour.
Take care
Corey

[ATC King]

I got the pivot built and the main support welded to it.

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The bolt and spacer are Harley Davidson. I don't know where they came from, but it's what I had on hand that worked for the pivot. Again, this is a budget modification (sort of). Foam and vinyl for the seat will be coming from Walmart. I'm thinking faux alligator for the seat...haven't decided on black or brown yet.

I did put a board on it, to test sit. This is going to be a double Kong build. That one dude isn't going to cut it, but two may be a bit much. I'm going to try and do it so I can swap out to the air bags later.

[floydechoes2000]

I like what you've done so far, but why not two upper arms with a kong on each side?

[ATC King]

Thanks!

It's going to get a T at the rear to support two suspension devices (Kongs for now).

There will be another cross brace, midway.


Why not a perimeter seat frame? Weight. This thing is already bulking up quite a bit. If I was working with DOM/Chromoly tubing, then sure, I'd build it different. I don't have a tube bender, TIG welder (only a cheap flux core MIG and Arc), or the funds to purchase those right now.

This cheap flat steel is heavy, and I'm doing what I can to minimize weight. It's going to end up heavier than the stock seat, but hopefully the ride quality will offset the weight penalty.

[floydechoes2000]

The T makes perfect sense. I can't wait to see the finished product and hear the ride report!

[ATC King]

I worked on this a bit more yesterday. The router depth adjustment got loose at some point, so I'm going to make another seat base and pay closer attention to that. The final shape will mimic the stock seat, this was just a rough shape to get started.

I inset the seat bracket to hold the seat base more securely, to there's more than just the bolts keeping it in position. No shear stress on the bolts, just tension this way.

There's not a whole lot left to do. A little more fastening hardware, another Kong, some prep and paint, then make the foam and cover for it.

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The final seat isn't going to be very thick, because it doesn't have to be. I'll use a denser foam, something with good support that doesn't just smoosh flat. I want it taller than stock, overall, but not ridiculously so.

[coolpool]

That's a novel idea, can't wait to see how it performs. I also got to thinking about all the old hard tail Harleys out there and remembered they had a spring seat on them too. Just in cast the Kong doesn't work out.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001405247544.html?src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&isdl=y&slnk=&plac=&mtctp=&albbt=Google_7_shopping&aff_platform=google&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&&albagn=888888&albcp=7386552844&albag=80241711349&trgt=539263010115&crea=en1005001405247544&netw=u&device=c&albpg=539263010115&albpd=en1005001405247544&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3Y-ABhCnARIsAKYDH7vJEU8Ba2kMCuuiGNbkAYjs9t7igAIZT0C06 C3ZQFlvE_PlmL6tDmYaAtI3EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

And if you wanted to contour the seat pan, steam will allow you to bend the plywood....or another option is heavy puck board which bends (with heat) and holds it shape.
https://www.globalindustrial.ca/p/building-materials/raw-material-supply/raw-material-supply-plastics/hdpe-plastic-sheet-1-4-thick-x-48-wide-x-48-long?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=Cj0KCQiA3Y-ABhCnARIsAKYDH7ux1_UO55pGeVJvBscAehQ6GsODhVuXgHolY u01VD_AOD4sPu3sUsYaAuO9EALw_wcB

[ironchop]

Your dog called.

Said "WTF happened to my kong toy?"

Interesting endeavor. Your rhoids will thank you later, I'm sure.

[ATC King]

I keep an eye out for used 185S and 110 seats, or more precisely, seat pans.

With the prices I keep seeing, this little project gets to looking better every time I work on it.

[ATC King]

I think I've got everything I need to finish this up and done a little more work on it today.

Remade the seat base using plywood, and made certain the router depth was securely adjusted.
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Added some 'furniture' hardware.
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Bolted the Kongs on. All this has to come apart one more time for final finishing.
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The Walmart seat foam, one layer at a time. Actually, it's a sleeping pad. Hopefully I don't' fall asleep riding.
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The first seat base still came in handy for bonding the layers.
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Once I got four layers, I cut and sanded the foam edges to shape. The height is about right for me, so I'm not so cramped up while riding it. A dual orbiting sander was used after a hobby knife cut the bulk of it away. The sanding leaves the foam a little hairy, but using a heat gun and a wide putty knife cleans it back up.
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I bought some of that incredible faux leather at Walmart for the cover, which I may sew up tomorrow (or sometime this week). It's the pin rolled faux style.
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I do still have the original seat pan. I'm wondering what I should list it for on EBay; $100?
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[coolpool]

That's turning out nice, well done. Do you think rounding off the edge on the first layer would relieve a pressure point from the inside of your legs or does that foam crush easily?

[ATC King]

I did think about rounding the top. I may still do it. I'd say the foam is about the right firmness, but that wouldn't hold true for someone half my weight.

The main duty this 110 will see is loaner, so no telling who'll be on it.

[Jim mac]

great idea! are you going to put a skirt around the seat to close up the gap between the fender and seat bottom? jim

[ATC King]

Nope. That's where the LED strips are going. :idea:

Kind of joking, and kind of not...

The cover will have a little apron though, sewed onto it, to obscure the staples and give it a more finished look. About an inch. I'd prefer all my hard work isn't hidden and if it was solid looking from top to fender, the seat would appear to be about a foot thick.

[Arky-X]

I read the first few posts of your thread but didn't really visualize what you were trying to do. Now that I see the pics I am like WTH!

Interesting concept. Like it!

[MrConcdid]

Ahhhhh, your putting a bed skirt around it, that's so sweet, will it have a ruffle too?

Honestly, this could become a real trend, all us senior citizens still riding these hardtails need some help.
I like it, reminds me of a 8N ford tractor seat or an Indian motorcycle from the 40's

MrC.

[ATC King]

I got the cover done today. It's been a couple years since I've sewn a seat cover and it shows. I had a little trouble rounding the corners with the stitching, but it's on. It took me two tries. The first one I made a booboo on and rather than picking the stitching out (which takes forever), I just tossed it.

I did round the foam's side edges, and in hindsight, I should have rounded all of it because it would have made stitching the cover easier. I wanted to do a pattern where the top had a full seam, with the side using one piece with just a seam up front. I like that look more than a top wrap with a front and back relief panel stitched on, like is typical for an ATC seat.

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The fit was good enough that I didn't add any type of veil below the pan. The vinyl neatly wrapped around it (doubled over) and was just stapled. The staples won't show unless the trike is upside down or the rider has fallen off and is below it, at which point, I don't think they'll care.

Now I've got to do a little modification the bottom frame part, then paint it all. That should wrap it up. It's taken more time than I expected, working on it here and there, but that's the norm for things like this.

[floydechoes2000]

Cool man, love your ingenuity and it looks pretty decent too, better than I expected to be honest.

[jasong_10]

That turned out great, good work.

[coolpool]

That is one sweet looking setup, well done!

[ATC King]

Maybe by the middle of next week, I'll have this completely done and together, with some ride results.

[ATC King]

I'm not orphaning this project; just got sidetracked.


I got everything done today, and painted. I wanted to assemble, but made a run to town to stock up on fuel for the generator in cast the weather gets bad this weekend.

It's the first time this year I've started the wood heater in the shop. Can't work and see my breath at the same time.

Tomorrow I anticipate putting it all together and riding. I've got a little pneumatic surprise too.

[ATC King]

It's on and besides a little fine tuning, ready to ride.

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It's on the hefty side. This is the ready weight of the complete assembly.
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No, the Kongs aren't holding air. :( I'm going to work on that a little more, to see if I can get them to. The Schrader valves are from tubes that I cut them out of. I keep a few of them around, because they come in handy for a lot of things. In a pinch, with an O-ring, they can be bolted into a tubeless wheel.

[jasong_10]

I'm sure that I missed it somewhere in the thread, but what is the stud/cable assembly for? Some sort of release mechanism?

[ATC King]

That cable is a valve stem tool for motorcycles, so a person doesn't have to bang their hands up trying to put it through from the inside with their fingers. Valve core comes out, tool goes in, and the stem is just pulled through from the other side.

I was just trying to show how I was able to bolt both ends of the Kongs without using some sort of hoodoo.

[jasong_10]

Ah, I see it now, lol. Boy I feel dumb . ..

[ironchop]

Clint... You're a pretty crafty m***erf***er, for sure.

Nice skills. Looks good.

[ATC King]

Ah, I see it now, lol. Boy I feel dumb . ..


Nothing to feel dumb about. If you've never used or seen one, it's unlikely you'd know what it is.

Regular tubeless motorcycle tires aren't too bad, but using tube type tires with a tube on spoke wheels (typical for modern street tires), it can be a literal pain trying to get the valve stem through the hole because of the stiffer sidewall and bead of the tubeless tire. It really chews up the hands.

[jasong_10]

Nothing to feel dumb about. If you've never used or seen one, it's unlikely you'd know what it is.

That's why I do, lol. I manage an auto parts store and have sold those valvestem fishing tools to some of my shops before, haha.

[ATC King]

That's why I do, lol. I manage an auto parts store and have sold those valvestem fishing tools to some of my shops before, haha.

Not to argue with your original assessment :naughty: but are you really thinking about valve stem installers.

Here's a cable version:
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fi%2F26154 7595684-0-1%2Fs-l1000.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

I have one just like that. Those are for installing rubber valve stems into tubeless wheels. They screw onto the outside of the stem.

The picture of the one I posted is for pulling valve stems that are affixed onto tubes, through the wheel. It screws into the stem so it's narrow enough to be pulled through the wheel. The hole in tube type motorcycle rims is just wide enough for the stem to fit through, nothing else.

The rubber stem pullers work, because the hole to hold the base of the rubber stem is wider than the tip. They won't fit through the hole on a motorcycle rim.

[jasong_10]

Ah, I didn't catch the difference. I still think I should have recognized it, lol.
.

[patriot1]

Awesome work King. Very impressive

[ATC King]

I'm trying to seal these dog toys up, and bought some Flex Seal stuff.

The directions say to let cure 24-48 hours, so tomorrow I'll put it back together, with just the top sealed. I'm going to need longer Schrader valves, so even though I'll be able to put it back together, I won't know if it's sealed until later.

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It's not so much they need air pressure to hold the seat up, it's that they feel kind of dead, because it's just the rubber that pushed the seat back up. If that makes any sense. They're like just having suspension bump-stops as springs, so maybe a few pounds of air will give them a little quicker rebound.

I'd really like to use the TC Bros air springs, but at ~$140 for a pair, meh, that's too much for this project. Maybe on down the road though, or on another build.

[jasong_10]

Homemade air springs from Kongs . . . I applaud you creativity, I wouldn't have thought of that in a thousand years, lol.

[MrConcdid]

Hear ya go, holds air and is great at parties, put a couple of theses under the seat pan.
MrC.

I'm just teasing you, I'm about to make a wood seat pan for my 185s

[ATC King]

You joke, but if that Flex Paste stuff sort or seals, but not fully, it may very well end up being a farting seat.

Just the risk I'm willing to take. :)

[Truckasaurus44]

My back is loving this thread.

[ATC King]

I finally got around to a completion point on this.

The Kongs are air tight; I got them to seal. I don't know what pressure I have in them, because the stems are too short to put a gauge on, but I let them sit for a week and they still had pressure. I just used an air blower with a rubber tip to blip a little into them, probably only a couple PSI.

The air pressure isn't so much for holding up the seat as it is to give it more rebound. In other words, so the elasticity of the rubber isn't doing all the work and feeling kind of dead. Really, just sealing them and using a solid bolt would probably work as well for most people <220lbs.


The ride is great. It's a little bouncy, but there isn't the dead hit like with just seat foam when it bottoms out. My hinge has too much slack and there's more wiggle in the seat than I'd like, but while riding, it isn't too noticeable. I'd like to link the Kong air valves so they're balanced, but I'll have to wait to get longer valve stems for that, which probably isn't happening even this year.

Looking at the pics, the Kongs are at an angle front to back. That was to anticipate the angle change of the seat during it's travel. It didn't really work out like I wanted, but it's not a problem. While using the Flex Paste, it was a real challenge to bolt everything together without the washers and bolts squirting out of the Kongs, because the paste acted like a lube. That was the main issue I had while trying to keep the centerline of everything while I tightened the fasteners. It all just kind of went where it wanted.


Obviously, suspension seats aren't a new concept, even horse drawn carriages had them. This is the first time I've built one for a trike though. Learning from this one, there are several things I'd improve, but to start, I just buy the TC Bros front pivot and air bags.

http://http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/weld-on-front-solo-seat-pivot.html

http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/air-powered-spring.html

I've actually been looking pretty hard at my 200ES for this modification, and I think I can do it with a seat height not too much over stock, if I keep the seat foam firm and thin.



Final 110 suspension seat pictures...

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[jasong_10]

Kudos to your ingenuity, that turned out great.

[MrConcdid]

I like it, I can tell you have a lot of time invested in this one.
I could see a tractor style spring or even a Harley Davidson seat spring, either of those may lend themselves to keeping the seat lower

How does the Wal-Mart mat - foam feel as a seat, I need to make one for my 185s
Thanks

[ATC King]

It did take some time, but if I built another one, it'd be a whole lot quicker, now that I've sussed out the design.

Yes, coiled springs would make for a lower height. The pivot would need to be slimmer, closer to the fender, so the seat wouldn't be sloping to the rear. Using the TC Bros weld on set pivot would work well there, and they also sell multiple types of springs. I think some type of damping device would be preferable with steel springs though, so the rider doesn't get bounced off, being this is an off-road application.

The Wal-Mart sleeping mat foam is dense and pretty stiff. It's going to be a little too much for a regular seat. I've done seats before, using closed cell foam blocks, and they were too stiff as well. It'd be good for a base, maybe a couple layers thick, then softer on top of that. The stock ATC seats are pretty squishy and thick, if you like them like that. You can still buy 185S seat foam, already formed, and in different densities. I'd just go with that. Check out Hi-Flite: http://hi-flite-usa.com/

I have a usable 185S seat foam if you want to go that route and just use a cheap Ebay cover. PM me if you want to work that out.

[XRyder]

well done..............novel fix! What is the licensing fee to re-pop? :lol: