Thoughts on a battery purchase for Lifan/Pittster 70 builds...

[Dirtcrasher]

Copy of my post on Facebook:

Is it possible to buy a good battery these days?? 12BS - ATC70 clone motor.

I am using a 250SX battery box with the positive terminal on the left when facing the battery.

I bought a WEIZE battery for 40$ and it lasted 11 months, 0 volts and cannot be charged - China POS. Says 1 year warranty but they have only offered 30% off, they will not honor their warranty, they suck. I spent a few hours looking at what Amazon has and just about every single battery on there has 20% horrible reviews. Of course some peeps don't know how to treat a battery or what to expect, but many cannot be charged in just a few months OR right out of the box.

I even looked at what use to be a very good reliable battery YUASA, but according to the reviews, they are no longer good batteries or they are fakes from China. I really don't want to spend 40$ on something that won't last if I can spend 75$ and have a reliable battery that will last as long as a tender is used during dormant times. Apparently the 75$ YUASA on Amazon is a fake/clone and unreliable.

Lithium and AGM are in the 200$ range, seems a bit much to me and I normally don't mind spending $$ on good parts.

Update - Lots of replies on Facebook, seems it's quite difficult to find a battery these days. about half of them last for years, but the rest fail in weeks, out of the box!! or within months of purchase. If anyone can cross a genuine OEM Honda YUASA battery in the proper configuration, that would be the balls, thank you...

[IKE-Z]

Maybe you can check with your local Interstate Battery Warehouse if you have one near. I picked up a battery there for my sons kfx50 and it’s lasted 3 years. I did have to fill the battery with supplied acid initially and charge it. Just periodically hooked the tender up on it and it’s been good.

[jasong_10]

Check with your local powersports shops, my local one sells a Parts Unlimited brand that I've had really good luck with. I had one in my trx 450r, and currently have them in my daughter's Eton and the trx 200. The one in the 450 lasted three or four years (was still good when I sold it), and the current ones are in year three I think.

[ATC King]

Lead acid batteries are possibly worse than they used to be, because the price of lead has risen so much and to keep cost down (at least for the manufacturer), they're making thinner plates or using lower quality lead. It's reasonable that much, if not all battery lead in new batteries is post consumer recycled, and quality is probably all over the place with the Chinese stuff.

China was even taking US electronics for recycling and just burning everything off in large pits, then collecting what metals they could afterward, for further recycling. It also looks like some Chinese companies were even taking used laptop batteries, removing the individual cells, rewrapping each cell with generic branding and selling as new.

Amazon and EBay are rife with knockoffs. Things like batteries and sparkplugs are best bought from a reputable source or from the store, like Walmart or AutoZone. There's a whole lot of fake NGK plugs online. They've gotten pretty good a making them look legit too.

Deka is a US made battery. Maybe they have something that'll work.
https://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/divisions/motive-power/

I've got a couple Dekas on the tractor and they're from 2008. Still working fine. I do take them off when the tractor isn't going to be used for a couple months and keep them charged. I also keep the electrolyte topped off.

AGM is the best way to go with a lead battery on something like an ATV or motorcycle. Still, just because it's AGM, doesn't mean quality is there. I seen Walmart has some Chinese ATV/motorcycle batteries that are AGM, but you have to fill them with acid yourself. I question how well the vent system one those works. AGM still have to vent if overcharged.

Ever since 'maintenance free' batteries came out, people presumed they could just ignore the electrolyte level. The early, quality 'maintenance free' batteries, or 'sealed,' were still flooded batteries, it's just that they had a more complex vent system that was supposed to capture everything and return it to the battery. Some had a catalyst caps, that would recombine things that were vented and return it to the battery.

Like every new tech, once it's figured out and functioning properly, the next step is to make it a cheaply as possible. Maintenance free batteries are pretty much not what they used to be. It's best to still periodically pop the caps off and check the levels, and the caps do come off most of them. AGM should solve most of that, but now they're being made so poorly, that tech alone doesn't mean quality.

Lithium batteries are where it's at for ATVs and motorcycles, but are very expensive. I'm not so sure I'd trust a cheap Chinese one, if available. They can burn your stuff to the ground if something goes wrong.

One of my motorcycle has a Shorai lithium battery and it's been working good for several years. A friend just put an AnitGravity on his DR650. The AnitGravity lithium batteries have a 'Re-Start" feature. If they get low enough, the store a reserve that can be accessed by pushing a button on the top. Both brands are expensive.

I'm really wanting to get into the super capacitor, lithium hybrid batteries. They look very promising for ATV/motorcycle applications with electric start. Right now, many people are just building their own. There are some ready made, but $$$.

Tesla bought Maxwell, a super capacitor manufacturer. Whether for their super capacitor or battery technology, super capacitors are now finding their way into consumer products, like car dash cams and even jump packs. Capacitors physically store electricity, unlike batteries, which use a chemical reaction. Capacitors can last much, much longer and provide more instantaneous power. They don't hold a charge very long though.

[Dirtcrasher]

Thank you for adding such a great reply to the thread King... :beer:

Yup the capacitors just charge and release quickly and I agree 100% on cheap lithium batteries, I don't need a fire.

It just seems like the regular 40$ batteries are hit or miss, I may drive to my local dealer and get the part number off of a Yuasa.

I have noticed that the SX battery I use is quite a bit bigger than what a CRF110 or CRF450 uses, I could always change to a smaller battery box...

[badasskfx]

I’m a parts unlimited dealer if you get me a part number I can get you a good price on a yuasa battery which is all I put in my machines. I can get it drop shipped right to your door.

[ATC King]

I have noticed that the SX battery I use is quite a bit bigger than what a CRF110 or CRF450 uses, I could always change to a smaller battery box...

The lithium ATV/motorcycle batteries are generally much smaller than their lead acid counterparts, so they come with strips of dense foam to fill the empty space. Whichever type of battery you use, you could probably just put a smaller one in and use some foam. You probably don't need a SX size battery for the smaller engine.

Something I didn't mention about the Shorai batteries, is they don't have a BMS (battery management system) built in. Or, at least the last time I checked. If they get below a certain voltage, a special charger is supposed to be used to balance the cells while charging. If the cells become unbalanced, it can cause the battery to fail.

The Antigravity has a BMS built in. It cost more though.

The lithium batteries don't handle low draws very well, like alarms. It'll pull them down past a safe voltage if there's no type of voltage cutoff used. My motorcycle has a TrailTech Stryker, which doesn't have much more than the clock to keep up, which hasn't caused any problems with the battery. Newer street bikes are another deal all together. Many of them are like new cars and have all kinds of drain for a short while after the key is off, and the ones with alarms definitely do.

[MrConcdid]

Aside from linking a few potatos together, the best battery I even bought is over 5 yrs old is an optima red top AGM battery.
Yes, it was expensive but its lasted and cranks my hot rod caddy 500, with the battery in the trunk of the car, it is quiet the load with a huge stereo and onboard air compressors it gets a workout.
I'm not sure if Optima makes a atc battery but AGM batteries are available in other brands.

MrC.

[ATC King]

Aside from linking a few potatos together, the best battery I even bought is over 5 yrs old...


It used to be common for batteries to last five years or more.

The caveat is new automobiles are much harder on batteries. Cooling fans, water pumps (more cars getting electric water pumps), onboard diagnostic tests, alarms, lights, and other things still operate for a period of time AFTER the key is switched off. Even then, some modules still stay awake for a long while. Something has to be operational, otherwise key fob commands wouldn't work.

The constant discharge and short trip recharge many auto batteries go through now, really shortens the life of conventional batteries. The old vehicles where everything was mechanical and with low power charging systems that probably only powered a clock when the vehicle was off, tend to have batteries that last longer.

The other thing is, when the OEM auto battery finally dies, the majority of people buy the cheapest battery available. That cheap battery is very unlikely to give to the same service.

Most of that doesn't apply to ATV batteries (new street motorcycles are much like new cars though). What does apply is the rough environment, specifically, vibration. That's one area where an AGM battery has a leg up. They do tend to be a little heavier than something like a stock Yuasa. Maybe a pound more, depending on the size.

Batteries do have mechanical failure, internal parts can and do break. One type of battery prone to this type of failure are dual post batteries. The ones with old style top post and also the side mount. I've personally seen this a couple times, and on autos. It's pretty easy to figure out. When the battery appears to be dead, put the voltmeter leads on the other terminal for that polarity and it'll probably check out fine. Throw an adapter on and attach the cable to the other terminal and the vehicle is back in service. It's uncommon for ATV and motorcycle batteries to have more than one post type.

Vibration just hammers the crap out of flooded batteries and if they're cheap, there's a really good chance something is going to break and either just kill the battery or short it out.

[ps2fixer]

I agree with the above, the charging and maintenance on batteries are very critical for their life. Lead acid (and any version based on the same chemical process) are voltage sensitive, if left too low of a voltage, the undesirable chemical process takes place and capacity is reduced at a rapid rate. Li-Ion has the same effect, if a Li-Ion cell goes under 2v, most spec manuals declares the battery as junk. I've bought a bunch of used (aka junk) laptop batteries and took them apart for the 18650 cells. The ones 2v+ almost 100% were good (capacity test and self drain). The ones under 2v where like 50-75% junk, big reduction in capacity, or self discharges too quickly.

Modern vehicles drive me nuts, leaving lights on for 2 minutes is hell on the battery and short trips will make it even worse.

Super capacitors are very interesting, I watched a program on them recently and their charge cycles are way way way higher than battery tech. I can't remember numbers 100%, but it's something like 1 million recharge cycles vs li-ion being around 500. Super capacitors are super expensive though but the risk of fire and such is gone. The program basically came up with the conclusion that super caps won't replace batteries, but "hybrid" setups will become mainstream. Their example was electric cars and cellphones, everyone is all about instant charging anymore, and super caps charge like 60x faster than li-ion (full charge in like 1 minute). So the concept is have a super cap that can hold say 25% of the capacity of the actual battery and slow charge it to give it a longer life with the perk of near instant 25% increase in charge.

The other thing super caps are great at is discharging, again very high vs li-ion, can't remember the exact numbers but it was like 10x more per wh of battery. Their concept for starting batteries was a normal battery + a super cap in parallel. The idea is the sudden surge will be mainly handled by the super cap and again the super cap can take up higher voltage charge faster than the battery so the battery sees less heavy draws and less heavy charging which prolongs the life of them.

Long story short, super caps are like perfect as a battery replacement, however their price likely won't ever come down enough to be a full replacement. Their volume vs capacity isn't good either vs a battery. They are rated for something like 15-20 years of use though + a crazy amount of recharge cycles.

Anyway, on the OP's topic, I've personally used Yuasa batteries in any atv I work on that needs one. So far no problems and they seem to last. Also Honda lists them for their battery replacements and some are made in USA, some I think were made in Mexico. Only bad experience I've heard of is the one my dad put in his 680 Rincon, but it sat a lot so probably got low on charge. 100% if anyone has a machine they don't ride atleast monthly, get a battery maintainer to keep the battery up. Note, this isn't a trickle charger, it needs to be a charger that will charge the battery and it continues to keep the battery voltage at or above a target voltage. Of what I've read, a consistent float charge is fine for lead acid, like keeping the battery at around 13.5v, so maybe a dumb "old" charger on a low amp setting would work well. Personally, I'd rather float charge the battery to that area, then let it sit for a week then top off again. If the battery self discharges much then it's junk assuming no load on the battery.


Talking about self discharge, here's a google result for the rates of different battery tech. Lead acid is still the king for rechargeable batteries.

https://components101.com/batteries/18650-lithium-cell

Also talking about that, that's another negitive for super caps, but they also aren't damage by being discharged fully.

According to https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/whats_the_role_of_the_supercapacitor


The supercapacitor discharges from 100 to 50 percent in 30 to 40 days. Lead and lithium-based batteries, in comparison, self-discharge about 5 percent per month.

50% discharge rate for a month for super caps.

Another thing about the super cap/battery hybrid, since the super cap puts out higher amps, the battery size/capacity can be lower, but at the same time you'd loose how long you can crank on an engine before a dead battery.



Anyway, figured this would be an interesting post, hopefully someone finds the info useful.

[badasskfx]

I keep this post short.....
Get a yuasa battery and stop over thinking it.
Pm me your batt box size and terminal location

[ATC King]

Whatever the choice, get a volt gauge.

The small digital gauges now can mount right to the handlebars, or someone can make some fancy mount for them wherever they want that it can be seen. The gauges are very inexpensive and can prevent ruining a battery if the operator sees it under or overcharging.

Overkill for this application, but I put TrailTech Strikers on my dual sport bikes, specifically because they have a voltmeter function built in.

On any of these engines, the most likely failure is the charging system. Between the stator, reg/rec, connections, and battery, there's just more points of failure.