ATC185S 200S DC Conversion for LED

[ATC King]

Since I got my 185 going again, I got around to converting it to DC power. This should work on any of the 185/200 hardtails.

I bought a cheap reg/rec from Ebay, and a large capacitor. Yes, I now realize the capacitor may be to low a voltage and possibly fail. I've got a 16v one on the way. I realized this when I seen the reg/rec is keeping voltage near 15.
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I made a harness, so this is completely plug and play. No modifications to the stock wiring and the entire system is now DC. Harness plugs directly into stator plug, runs AC to the reg/rec, then DC back to the harness that used to plug into the stator. The capacitor is tapped in between the reg/rec and harness. I need to install a fuse, but didn't have one today. Will pick one up and install near the capacitor positive.
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The reg/rec and capacitor can be mounted in many locations, I chose the rear of the frame because I'm not using a stock exhaust, it's open to airflow, and I didn't have to run a single wire forward of the stator connector. No extra mess of wires near the headlight to deal with. It's a four wire reg/rec. Didn't need a five wire with sensing for this application.
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I've just mounted the capacitor with a hose clamp for the time being. Wanted to get everything working before I buy or make some type of rubber mount, or isolator clamp.

With no lights on, it's regulated ~14.85v and stays there idle to top. With low power LEDs (like for tail light), it's stays there even at idle, no flickering. With the big daddy LED I plan to use for high, voltage drops at idle and the LED flickers. Just off idle, it's back to 14v again. Just not enough power at idle. I could easily manage that with a battery, but I don't want to use one. I don't want to add another switch or key and their extra wiring that would be a good idea to have if using a battery. No electric start either, so a battery is a bit too much and just something else to make sure stays charged.

Just have the LED hanging there for testing. Will make a bracket.
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I have one of those LEDs on a motorcycle, it's bright, but has a very wide pattern. Perfect for woods riding at hardtail speeds.


Annnd about larger capacitors, they need to be discharged before handling or it can be shocking what they'll do. New one I have coming is about 100,000uf.

[350for350]

Good job so far.

[ps2fixer]

For the rectifier you used, was it a half wave or full wave (one vs 4 diodes internally)? Also what's the wattage of the LED light? If I remember correctly, the ATC200S puts out 50w, might be able to get the stator rewound for 70w. The 200e/es should be 70w if I remember right, don't recall if it would be possible to interchange the stator though.

Careful of the Chinese regulators, I worked on a Chinese atv not long ago for a friend that had a dead battery and no ignition problem, turned out the rectifier/regulator was shorted out internally and was blowing the main fuse, not sure if that's how they commonly fail, just food for thought.

[ATC King]

Guessing it's full wave. Same design as the other cheap reg/recs that list 'full wave' in their eBay description. The Chinese listing descriptions are vague, at best.

For instance, the LED light I'm using is listed as 248watts. That's certainly not true, and it's not even comparable to light output in any meaningful way. I haven't measured the actual power consumption, but it's on up there for lights of this type. It has over 70 led chips. It's not so high that the stator won't fully power it, just high enough that it won't at idle. It's listed operating range is 9v-30v, and the system is down near 9v at idle.

Same issue on my 200ES. I have a LED headlight and taillight on it, but it's still possible to go over budget with high beam at idle. With the headlight I'm using on it, if I run the low, high, and DRL at idle, the battery begins to drain. LEDs still take some juice, they just put out a lot more light for the same power. Want to decrease power use, typically running a LED with similar to stock light output will use much less power. Who wants that though, instead of gobbling up all the power, but putting out more light.

The charging system on these is only single phase, so there's only so much they're going to do, regardless. The good thing on the 185/200 hardtails is the stator is not grounded, which makes converting the whole system to DC quick and easy. Just treat the green wire from the stator like any other yellow or pink stator wire. Not a single wire or ground on the OE harness needs modified and now the entire harness is DC. Could easily add a small battery if someone wanted to included USB charging for phone, GPS, or other accessories, which wouldn't be a problem using when the lights are off or on low.

Ricky Stator sells a high output (75w) lighting coil for these. https://www.rickystator.com/product/honda/honda/honda-atc185-75-watt-lighting-coil-all-years

Not sure what it'd do at idle. Max output is always up in the RPM.

I already had wire and the connectors. The LED headlight was an extra that came with a set I bought. The reg/rec and capacitor were all I had to buy extra. Trying to keep the cost down, but I may buy one of those larger capacity lighting coils later, just to see how it acts. The lighting I'm using now is plenty, and the system handles if all fine, except at idle. I'll just switch to the lower power LED at idle and it's all fine.

I hear you on the Chinese electrical stuff, but that's about all that's available without going stupid expensive or buying used Japanese motorcycle electrical parts. Why I need to get an inline fuse pretty quickly and probably unwrap the new harness and put it in line with the reg/rec.

[ps2fixer]

A fuse isn't a bad idea, I don't know capacitors *that* well to know how much energy yours can hold (in a measurement I'm used to, like ah, wh, etc). If the cap shorting out wouldn't be able to burn wires, I wouldn't worry about the fuse. The alternator is designed to be full load used while running, so dead short shouldn't be a problem for it. It never hurts to have a fuse anyway, it's defo a best practice.

Everything you said electrically about the machine is 100% the same as I understand it. Single phase, floated ground, 50-70w peak output stock. Reasion I mentioned about the half wave vs full wave rectifier is because the half wave would be a lot easier to notice the flicker. I would have thought the cap would have filled the void between the power spikes/humps, I guess it's either the alternator doesn't put out enough at idle (makes sense), or the cap is too small for the power draw. Since power output and frequency increases with rpm, it's a little hard to tell 100%. In theory if you bypassed the cap you'd always see the LED light flicker unless it has caps inside of it. In theory 3600 rpm should be 60hz AC, fully rectified should be 120hz for the rectified DC power (not sure what exactly it's called for the frequency). The human eye notices flickers upto around 30hz or 30 flashes per second before it's hard to tell it's flashing vs just solid on. 30hzz should be 25% of 3600 rpm, or 900 rpm. If it's half wave the hz is cut in half and to have the 30hz rate with half wave would be around 1800rpm. Just food for thought.

For the voltage regulator/rectifier, did you get a pin out with it? I've contacted probably 5 or so sellers asking for a pin out and no one can get it for me, I have 4 rectifiers similer to what you bought. I did get one wire diagram but it doesn't make much sense, it appears it's designed for a 2 phase system, likely a moped or something. The rectifier in mine works based on the wire diagram, but the voltage regulator never worked in any of them. I have another model that appears to be wired the same and the physical size of the heat sink is easily twice as big. At the time I was hunting for a regulator/rectifier to match up to the atc350x (200w single phase). I was probably burning out the voltage regulator circuit though.

Not super sure how to read if the power is half wave or full wave with out using an oscilloscope. If you was near I'd offer to use mine even though I probably don't have the right lead for the voltage, I just have a 1x and 10x lead.


I'm not sure how much you've seen the aftermarket parts, but Hondaline did sell a DC power kit for the atc200. It tied into the wiring between the stator and main harness, two stator wires ran to the regulator/recitifer and the dc output went to the green/yellow wires. Yellow wire also split off and ran to the battery to charge it. I've been wanting to make a reproduction of atleast the harness and find a suitable voltage regulator/rectifier, but haven't gotten too far with that research. I do have an aftermarket regulator/rectifier that's rated for 200w single phase that *should* work well in any single phase 3 wheeler but I can't get a clear answer if it's stable with out a battery or not. They sell them for road bikes and they offer a "batteryless" version for slightly more, different wattage specs too though, I think it was 230w single phase. I figured it would be nice to sell a kit that doesn't use Chinese parts for one if my testing goes well lol.

Either way, I probably wouldn't worry much about the light at idle, every 200 I've rode with no battery has the light get quite dim at idle and cruising rpm it's just fine, sounds like you're having the same exact effect, just the led flashes instead of getting dim. Might be bad for the power supply in the LED light, but who knows what power supply design they used.

[MrConcdid]

WOW, I am so confused. Did it work? what parts did you need, a photo or part numbers would be nice. I have a 185s I want to put a L.E.D. pod light on.
Thanks,
MrC.- not an electrician.

[ps2fixer]

Yea it works, it just flickers at low rpm. I didn't hold back on the electrical talk since I know the ATC King knows electronics more than the average person =).

Basically he took the 185 system and converted it to a 200es system replacing the battery with a capacitor and he made the wiring changes himself.

To pull the same thing off, there's tons of options for DIY people, like using a 350x voltage regulator and getting a 30-50amp full wave bridge rectifier (for a power supply or similar application) and you'd be golden with no battery since I know 100% the 350x regulator is stable with out a battery.

The basic idea is, the engine generates AC power, and LED's like DC power. *Some* LED's will work right off of AC power if it's regulated atleast (can't go over voltage), longevity and such can be questionable depending on the design. I've heard quite a few people burnt out LED lights by hooking them up to AC generating machines and I've heard of people hooking them up problem free for years.

Hopefully this reply is a little easier to digest while still being useful. As for the parts, the OP can post if he wants, it's basically just a capacitor and some chinese voltage regulator/rectifier likely from ebay.

This is the regulator I had bad experience with, however no one could give me power specs so I hooked it to a 200w machine, probably too much power for it. No clue if it would hold up to 50-70w.

http://www.motopartsdealer.com/4pin-silver-gray-voltage-regulator-for-cg-125cc250cc-atv-dirt-bike-go-kart-p-858.html


If you want a for sure good setup, grab a 200e/es voltage regulator/rectifier, wire it inline with the stator wires (green and yellow) to the AC input, and the two wires coming out hook the ground to green on the harness, and the postiive to yellow on the harness and you basically have a 200es system ignoring the battery. If you want the battery too (more consistant lighting, stays bright at idle etc), then the yellow wire going to the harness needs to split to go to the battery postive and add a fuse for safety. Neg of the battery just goes to the frame, engine, or if you really want, tie into the green wire going to the harness. The voltage regulator/rectifier will handle charging an atv battery, and it does the AC to DC conversion for you. The battery makes the DC clean power and basically any part that's designed to run off car power will work on the machine.

I don't want to go the 200e/es regulator/rectifier route for the kit since there's a limited supply of them and used only.

Good luck with the project, The biggest problem you'll have to work out is the wiring. I should make a adapter harness to use the 200es/e regulator/rectifier on the 200/185 machines some time.

[ATC King]

WOW, I am so confused. Did it work? what parts did you need, a photo or part numbers would be nice. I have a 185s I want to put a L.E.D. pod light on.
Thanks,
MrC.- not an electrician.

Rec/rec is just one of those $10 eBay specials. Capacitor cost more than that.

Yes, it works. It's simple and others have done it, I'm not marching into uncharted territory. The thing I've done a little different is make a plug in harness so I don't have to modify the main one. I already had the connectors because I have other Japanese bikes and got tired of not having connectors when I wanted to add aftermarket electrical components and using parts store bullet or spade connectors just makes things look goobered up.

Adding a reg/rec is the simplest way to get smooth DC power. Some have added a AC regulator, then a bridge rectifier near the headlight, others have made crude half wave setups just for the headlight, and some have added just a diode (half wave) and paired up multiple LED lights in series to handle the unregulated AC voltage.

With a $10 reg/rec, why bother cobbling anything else together. Many other small engines have one end of the lighting stator grounded, which means that needs to be addressed before being able to use a full wave rectifier, but the 185/200 ATCs don't, which makes it much easier to convert to a reliable DC system, without halving the power output.


I'll draw up a simple wiring diagram sometime.

[ps2fixer]

I'll save ya a little time, below is the Honda wire diagram, it's for the 82 atc200 but the DC power kit wiring is basically the same for all years. The pass through for the black/red wire is the difference depending on the year of the engine.

For what machines have the floated ground on the stator vs internally grounded, the number of wires is a strong indication, but the Honda wire diagrams do show if it is or isn't. Like in the diagram below, the yellow/green wire coil doesn't go to the ground (the 3 lines under the circle), but the black wire does (exciter coil). 350x, 200x, 250r are all internally grounded. 250es/sx are 3 phase so completely different, the rest of the 185's and 200's I'm pretty sure are floated ground. I could look up the smaller models, I don't recall off the top of my head how they are setup. I do know some of the smaller ones were 6v instead of 12v based like the ATc70, ATC90, and early ATC110 (79-80).

For the generic advice on internally grounded stators, if there's a green (ground) wire going to the stator, it's a floated ground. If it has 2 yellow wires, it's floated. If it has only one yellow or white/yellow wires, it's internally grounded. Black/red, blue/yellow, and green/white are unrelated wires.

https://i.gyazo.com/b8d6d1a07285a0b11b51566ca962aa22.jpg

[ATC King]

Not super sure how to read if the power is half wave or full wave with out using an oscilloscope.


Just checked today, the rectifier is full wave. My multimeter has a diode test function, and they were in the 0.5v bias range. A half wave rectifier would only have one diode, so the other leg would not. Testing a half wave would result in looking like a bad full wave if not knowing the difference. I didn't bother checking it before putting it on, because most of those I've seen are full wave. Things like riding mowers use half wave charging for the battery and the lights run off of AC. They typically just have a diode in the wire harness.

Not a bad idea to check though. I wish you luck in getting real information from Chinese part eBay/Amazon sellers. :lol:

I would be more hesitant to run a used 200ES reg/rec, because those are old and they do go out. I've had mine fail and I've read of many others having failed. They're just too old to gamble on and used prices for them border on stupidity when new ones are available for the same or lower price. I think I have one good spare left.

I'll post the outcome of using the larger capacitor. The low power LEDs don't flicker at idle, it's just the main headlight and just a couple hundred RPM above idle, it's rock solid. I think the larger capacitor will help some, but it can't help if the system just won't handle that kind of draw at idle. The low power LEDs on, it's ~14.8v at idle and steady, only dropping to ~9v when the big LED is on, but goes right back to full power just above idle. No different on my 200ES, except with the battery, there is steady power, it just starts discharging at idle with the LED on high beam. Low beam is multiples brighter than the stock headlight anyway, so it's kind of getting greedy expecting it to go beyond that.

Someone could convert to DC, put LED bulbs in the stock headlight and taillight, add a small battery, a simple on switch for the system, and they'd have a stock appearing trike with the added function of being able to use the lights with it not running and being able to charge something like a phone or other small electronics.

I am not using stock lights. With the six-pack rack, the best taillight location which could actually be seen, was right on the back. Rock lights are these little LED pods that are for putting under 4x4 trucks, kind of like off-road neon. That's what I'm using for a taillight, and they are most certainly bright enough for that application. They're tough too, with thick aluminum, rubber mounting pad and a thick lens. Should hold up just fine.

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I modified the stock headlight brackets to use typical one bolt aux lighting. I didn't hack a good pair of OE mounts. The sheet metal tabs had already been welded multiple times because of cracks and the weld to sheet metal ratio was out of proportion. Doing this means I kept the rubber mounting for the headlight and these machines vibrate, so that's kind of important.

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[ps2fixer]

Ironically, I've had 5 or so atc200es's and no regulator/rectiifer problems. Almost all had harness issues though, the small red wire coming out of the positive battery cable seems to rip off quite often. Probably half had engines worn out so much they smoked or didn't have enough compression to run. I think two had rear ends with the bearings shot. That's what I get for buying cheap abused parts machines lol. Oh yea, one had the cam worn so much it wasn't really a cam any more, the lobes basically didn't exist. Ironically the rocker arms seemed to have much less wear on them vs the cam in that engine, don't quite understand that one, I guess the rocker arms are made from a harder metal or something.

That rock light is pretty neat. That's another back burner idea of mine is sourcing or creating new tail lights for the 3 wheelers that mount on the OEM tail light mount points but uses either updated light bulbs / removable sockets, or make it with an led light strip or "bulb". I think it wouldn't be too hard to design and have 3d printed, clean up the 3d print and mold it up for pour plastic molding. In theory it's fairly simple process, but I have next to no experience with that stuff sadly and I have plenty of other work to keep me busy. I know LED's are like the go to thing anymore, but there's so much lieing and garbage marketing from the Chinese market, it's hard to find quality stuff that lives up to what you'd expect from the parts. My last led "bulb" order took 2 months to receive, must have been on the extra slow boat from China. Personally don't like the end result, but I'm sure there's people out there that would love the extra white light even with the random "hot spots" like a disco ball. Besides that it eems like a good build process and my quality testing is showing it should atleast live the typical 300hr life span that most atv bulbs are rated for.

I have too many ideas and too many projects lol. Trying to keep focused on what I have already started so things can get done.

That light mounted up quite nice. Could use a bit of a covering around the light to make it more OEMness but it's not bad as is.

Also I didn't think of the multi meter trick for testing the regulator/rectifier, makes sense though.

[ATC King]

The larger cap is now installed. Too big?:p
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With this one, the light still dims (slightly) at idle, but any flickering is barely noticeable, almost none. At idle, with the main light on, voltage drops to ~9.5v, and 9v is the lower operating range of the LED. Still, multitudes brighter than the stock headlight had wet dreams about. Just above idle, everything's copasetic.

My conclusion is a battery is the only way to have 100% light at idle, but it'll still be discharged because this powerful of a light will cause the charging voltage to drop at idle, regardless. This large capacitor makes it acceptable though, without needing a battery.

The low power taillight and, what I'm calling a DRL, have always been 100% at idle and not a bit of flicker with the smaller capacitor. The DRL is just a rock light, but it's bright enough to actually see with at night. It'll serve as a trail DRL on cloudy days without the need for using the main light and blinding the crap out of people.

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I can't overstate how bright the headlight is.

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I'm satisfied with it. The entire system is simple, no modifications to the main harness, no extra wiring or electronics at the headlight, plug and play, no battery, and it should be reliable.

[ps2fixer]

Reliable is always a good thing. I'd assume the headlight would be the weakest link (the power supply inside), that monster cap is well a monster lol. Should easily have a 10 year life, probably more like 20-30 year. I've seen videos of people using capacitors like that to start small cars and replacing the battery with a capacitor bank. Longer life, doesn't care about voltage so much (within range for the specs), can provide crazy high peak amp output (cranking amps in a battery context). The only down side is when it sits the caps tend to self discharge. In your setup it's not storing the starting energy, so really probably a better setup than an actual battery. I suspect the cap wasn't cheap though.

As for the cap vs battery for the lights not flickering, you can get caps big enough to act like a battery, but yea the costs would be too much. Seems like you found a nice happy middle grounds. I've never ran the numbers, but with the known operating voltage, known amp draw, capacitor capacitance, you should be able to calculate the wave pattern an ocilloscope would see. From my understanding, in electronics, the typical setup is to step down the AC power to a lower but still higher than needed voltage in DC, store it in the cap, and the cap is big enough so the lowest dip is still higher than the needed power. Then the actual power used is regulated after that point to provide extremely clean solid DC power like for a computer. Of course the engine is designed to run at operating voltage, so makes sense at low rpm it's under voltage a bit.

Either case, neat project, I don't see people using caps too often in projects. Not sure how caps hold up to weather and such, like riding through mud holes. I'd guess a cap over top of the terminals wouldn't be a bad idea.

[ATC King]

What you may want to check out is super capacitors. Those are the kind that explode things like fingers that get to close. They are lower voltage and built into banks or modules, like you mentioned people doing with starting cars.

There are smaller ultra capacitors that would work in this application, but it's approaching battery prices. The capacitor I'm using was the highest cost single item in the conversion, but still much less than any name brand lithium motorcycle battery. No way was I even considering a heavy AGM, GEL, or flooded battery for this. It was make it work as good as possible with a capacitor or go with a lithium battery.

[ATC King]

Update:


It's all still working great. I've even been riding through the river with it several times and no problems.

The capacitor isn't a battery, but even after sitting a week, the small LED will still come on a partial brightness. So, not being a battery, it isn't going to hurt it if accidentally left on. The capacitor is working.

I do have a super capacitor on the way, but that's going on something else. Maybe once shipping is back to normal, I'll put a super capacitor on this. The only drawback is a super capacitor will have circuitry, which won't affect anything with installation, but it's more failure points.

[ironchop]

Update:


It's all still working great. I've even been riding through the river with it several times and no problems.

The capacitor isn't a battery, but even after sitting a week, the small LED will still come on a partial brightness. So, not being a battery, it isn't going to hurt it if accidentally left on. The capacitor is working.

I do have a super capacitor on the way, but that's going on something else. Maybe once shipping is back to normal, I'll put a super capacitor on this. The only drawback is a super capacitor will have circuitry, which won't affect anything with installation, but it's more failure points.

Thanks for the update.

I used a battery on my 200X and that added a whole lot more work to effect, like removing the airbox and redesigning it, fabricating a battery box with mounts that wouldn't break from rough riding. If I had used a capacitor instead, I could have saved myself three or four hours of work and some money as well trying to sort it out in one shot.

I was really impressed with the LEDs but mine was a bit of overkill with one spot and one flood. A few ppl at Trikefest probably got tired of the temporary blindness from my oncoming traffic if I turned them both on at the same time, but they were very durable and effective. I almost set the shoe tree on fire with my lumens😂

[ATC King]

No doubt about not having a low beam. If I didn't already have the light I used, I would've opted for a single unit with a low/high. Would probably be a good idea to add a high beam indicator too.

It certainly crossed my mind about avoiding having to build a sturdy battery box. Little things like that do eat up some time. Another reason for the capacitor is I'm tired of trying to keep all the vehicle batteries around here, charged up. Several of the vehicles sit for long periods between use. Capacitor don't care.

The super capacitors (in a bank) wouldn't be any larger than the giant one I used, but would be about the price of a decent AGM battery.

What's gathering steam right now is a hybrid battery of sorts, where a smaller lithium battery is used in conjunction with super capacitors. Light weight and compact, but still powerful enough to start engines. The battery quickly charges the capacitors and they do most of the high demand work, then once the engine is running what little energy it took from the battery, is quickly replenished. More circuitry though, to keep everything balanced and charged.

For something like a Big Red, that may mean a lithium battery with 1/4 the CCA (tiny), but with actually more cranking power from the capacitors. A downside is not being able to crank it very long before having to stop and let the capacitors recharge. A problem it solves for lithium batteries is their sluggish cold performance.

It's something I'm going to try on my vehicles.

[ATC King]

I bought a super capacitor module.

http://www.intronicspower.com/products/pdf/DATA%20SHEET%20ucap16-58%207-31-2015.pdf

"This module has a capacitance of 58.3 farads at a
maximum rated voltage of 16.4V."

"ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM RATINGS
Maximum Voltage 17.1V
Maximum Short Circuit Current 840 Amps"

This is going into my pickup as an addition to the battery, for even more starting power in colder weather and to further smooth out the electrical system. Like when large loads are suddenly applied, other than starting, so the entire system stays better regulated for any electronics on the truck. For instance, just turning on the headlights usually causes a noticeable twitch in the whole system, but these capacitors can dump power so quickly, that momentary voltage drop should be minimized. I'll find out.

In the meantime, I've still got to get a box to put it in, and before I ordered it, I checked what size cable it could use and the specifications said up to 4awg. Turned out the marine grade 4awg I had didn't fit. I need to get some 6. I made up some 10awg leads for now.

After playing around with it a little, I pumped it up close to 16v, and put it on my 200ES to see what it would do.

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My ES starter is on it's last leg and the engine compression is low, so this thing whirls over for quite a bit before it'll start. It's not got that insta-start thing going on like it should have. Regardless, the capacitor module alone started it three times before the voltage dipped under 12v. With a tiny lithium battery used in conjunction, this module wouldn't have any problem serving as a battery replacement. It spins the engine over great, better than the AGM battery that's currently on my ES.

Even on something without a starter, I'd still want to use a small lithium battery in conjunction, to keep the capacitor charged. The reason is, when a super capacitor is uncharged, when you go to charge it, the resistance is so low, it's like a direct short. I don't think that's good at all for the charging system, so keeping this module charged up after the initial charging, would be a good idea regardless.

That also means when someone goes for the initial charging of a super capacitor module, they want to make certain they have manual control over the charger. When empty, this module will gobble up a lot of amps very quickly and could fry an automatic charger, or cause it to not charge at all because it interprets the situation as a short and kicks off. There are ways of fooling the charger, but if it won't handle it, it won't handle it.

The module charges quickly, but will definitely strain something not set up to handle it, and voltage NEEDS to be kept in check, so not to go over the maximum, which can damage the module. A voltmeter should be use while charging, even if someone is using a programmable power supply with one built in. It will arc violently if attached to battery in it's uncharged state (this guy learned), because of the extremely low resistance.

This particular module doesn't have a complicated balancing circuit. It only uses a diode and LED to bleed voltage at each capacitor, to keep them balanced. Six capacitors, in series, each with one diode on one LED. Not much to go wrong as far as circuitry. The LEDs light intensity varies on the charge state. At 12v, they're not even perceptible, unless it's in a dark area.

This picture is at more than 15.5v
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The LEDs are used as a visual identifier of module state by intensity and their uniformity. Being that most car batteries will have a resting voltage under 13v, it'll look like the LEDs aren't even lit.

This is a higher powered module, which I don't need on the 185S. I would go with something smaller on it, but still use a small lithium battery in conjunction, and add a on/off switch. On one of the E-start trikes, this and a small lithium battery may fit into a custom box that would fit in the battery location, or put one in the battery location and the other in the trunk.

The big deal is the lifespan these should have. Basically the life of a vehicle. With just changing out a small lithium battery every once in a while, and sill having kick-butt starting power in freezing temperatures.

[ps2fixer]

Sounds like there's a way to make the capacitor numbers make sense to those of us that work with batteries (like myself xD).


Multiplying 3000F by 2.7V gives you the charge in Coulombs, i.e 8100 coulombs. Dividing this by 3600 sec/hour gives you 2.25 ampere-hours.

According to that math, 58.3 * 16.4v = 956.12 / 3600 = 0.266 ah. Clearly that's for over an entire hour though, so lets convert it to say 10 seconds of crank time. 0.266 * 60 (60 mins in an hour) gives us 15.96 amp minutes, there's 6 groups of 10 secs in a minute, so again * 6, so 95.76 amp/10 seconds. If I did the math right, you can draw 95 amps for about 10 secs before draining the charge. Clearly it's not quite that simple of math, but atleast I can wrap my head around it, seems to be about the perfect size.

I was going to mention the charging concerns, but you already addressed that xD. Seems the math is somewhat accurate. I'm pretty sure I've seen one of the 3 wheeler manuals state the starter was 100amp so figured that load was about right for cranking.

Just wondering where do you get the lifespan of the super caps? Everything I've seen is between 10-20 years while car batteries are around 5-10 years. I've had exceptions to that and had 12-15 year old batteries work alright, but haven't been around super caps much.

Not the greatest source, but one of the first results on google: https://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/will-supercapacitors-ever-replace-batteries/

In vehicle service, batteries have a life expectancy of 5 to 10 years while supercaps can last for 10 to 15 years.

Seems like another route to get around needing a battery to keep the super cap(s) in check is to have a circuit to limit the charge rate. Should be a pretty simple mod for a car, the only wire that would need to be changed would be the charging cable from the alternator. Could do the math and limit the cap to say 10amp charge. Not sure if a large resister would work for this situation or if some sort of power supply would be needed.

I guess the other factor is the self discharge rate of super caps, according to google



The supercapacitor discharges from 100 to 50 percent in 30 to 40 days. Lead and lithium-based batteries, in comparison, self-discharge about 5 percent per month


Shouldn't be a problem for something used weekly, but monthly or longer it could be a problem (like for an atv). Of course the super cap doesn't care about being discharged, so it will charge/recover just fine, just an extra step for a machine that sat too long.

Anyway, interesting to hear your results on this. I wonder if they would be a solid option for the atc185/200 etc machines since the lights by design use 100% of the alternator's capacity, so the short circuit effect when the super cap is discharged shouldn't be a problem, and it would be more than enough just to smooth out the power for an LED. I suspect something around 1 farad would be plenty for that kind of job since there's no need for starting.

[ATC King]

On the lights; they do use all the power, but the filaments in those stock lights are a big ol' resistor. A uncharged super capacitor is like a direct short because of the very low resistance. That's how it'll treat the stator, reg/rec, like it's directly shorted to itself. Some of that magic blue smoke is likely to leak out.

Same as for automatic car battery charger. It'll see it as a short and kick off (if it's smart).

Once the super capacitor is charging up, the resistance climbs. That initial lack of resistance is going to hammer the charging system. The charging systems on these trike are low powered and the time it would take to sufficiently charge a dead super capacitor would be an extended time while the system is being overworked. Maybe thinking about the charging system like RMS versus Peak, would make more sense. Or, even subwoofer resistance affect on an amp, like going to 2ohm when 4ohm is the most the amp can handle. Not enough resistance is a problem.

as for lasting the life of car, yeah, that's not the life of a car that I'd own, but by today's standards, it'd last the life of most cars before they see the crusher. It's not just about the years, it's also about the cycles. A lead-acid battery cycle life pales in comparison. Think city driving, short tripping. A lot of variables, like you mentioning sill functioning, decade old lead-acid batteries. That's not the norm, and I've got some from 2008 still going. I imagine when super capacitor technology makes it into more cars, those parts are probably still going to be good by the time the car is trashed. It wouldn't be surprising that a used super cap market pops up a few years after they become common in cars.

They're already a selling point for dash cameras, because the lithium batteries currently used in many of those doesn't tolerate the heat they're exposed to and constant full drain cycles. One of my dash cams uses a super capacitor instead of a battery.

1F should be plenty and I've actually been looking at the capacitors sold for car audio systems. One of those already has everything needed, in a easily mounted cylinder. I'm not certain how well they'd hold up to the elements though and may need to be put into a welding rod canister or something similar. They probably have some type of BMS or other means built in too.
Edit: I was looking at those car audio capacitors and they are just as they've always been, some type of electrolytic capacitor. The new one's aren't super capacitors, they're the same old style inside those fancy cans. They do have voltage regulation and some other features. Maybe worth trying for the money. They are very large, so it'd probably have to go on the frame, under the air box. Would work about like what I already have, just more capacity. I watched some 'what's inside' videos, and it looks like they don't need to be as large as they are, some had foam filling up most of the space. I guess size sells.

There are $15 AGM batteries on EBay. Like those for a computer UPS. No need for a lithium if someone didn't mind maybe buying a new $15 battery every six months or so. They're not very well made. The 'valve' venting system they claim to have is nothing more than a rubber cap on a plastic nipple, just under the top cover. During an overcharge situation, pressure pushes past them and as the battery cools, the get sucked down. I would try it, just to see how long it'd last in ATV riding conditions.

For something long term and more reliable, here's Antigravity's smallest lithium battery. https://antigravitybatteries.com/products/starter-batteries/small-case/ag-401/

Here's something about cycles on Maxwell's site, with the same capacitors in my module: https://www.maxwell.com/products/ultracapacitors/16v-small-modules
"all of these products will perform reliably for more than 500,000 discharge-recharge cycles."

[ps2fixer]

Yea that makes sense, I guess I didn't think about the filaments having a little resistance, it's not much though, what like 0.5 ohms per bulb in series? I do get your point though, I'm pretty sure the stators are pretty robust on the 3 wheelers, I have yet to see one fried from being shorted out, but I've seen them with bad wires (age) and the insulation wore through where the resistance of the coil went out of spec. Can't remember what it was that I was working on, but it had the power from the stator bolted directly to ground. No clue how long it was ran that way but the stator was fine.

I might be an odd duck, I'm a computer guy, like electronics, play with circuits a little and such, but I HATE new vehicles. I drive a 1990 car, a 1998 pickup, and my winter beater is a 1997. Car before that was 1992. I don't mind fuel injection, but beyond that my cut off is around the year 2000. I see way too many cars that are just a few years old with electrical problems, and it's not even something complex. Like one lady I know has a Chevy car and the mirror control switch is bad already. I've had 20+ Toyota's with power mirrors (I've bought a lot of scrap, wrecked, or parts vehicles) and never had one that didn't work. My 1990 car just had the battery fail on it sitting at my dad's for exhaust work (he's an ase certified mechanic and have better tooling than me for that kind of work). I'll have to check the date on the battery but I'm thinking it's like a 2009 or 2010 battery. It's drained dead 5 or so times since I had the car too. Even though it's a 1990, it has some stupid electronics I don't like about it, one being the alarm system that's factory installed, not dealer installed which means it's reversible. My 1998 pickup had a dealer installed security system, it's not in it any more, no more doors automatically locking, and it auto unlocks if you leave the key in the ignition yet and you can unlock both doors with the door key (unlock 2x to activate the feature).

If modern cars can't handle 10 years, then we have really went down hill in tech, the 70's cars could do 10 years pretty easily, I'm driving 20-30 year old vehicles xD.

For the BMS like board on the car audio cap, coat it in epoxy to seal the board assuming no heat sinks and such. I'd think the actual cap should hold up fairly well, maybe paint any unpainted surface and put dielectric grease on the connections. I'm not sure what's used on car computers, but it feels similar to a silicone, maybe the mix used for the back side of solar panels would be about right and should be fairly cheap.

Yea the AGM batteries probably wouldn't last long on a 3 wheeler big time if it's not a well regulated system. It's been a while but yea the over voltage makes the acid boil/offgas and for a sealed battery that's a no go. I'd have to do some digging on the UPS's I brought home from my last job (they where throwing them out), but I think they are about 8-10 years old with the orig batteries. They tossed them because we had a power outage, generator kicked on and they where not happy with the other 20+ ups machines all the same model in the building flicking on and off at the same time. They all kept cycling and the two bigger units I got were for the servers. I used it with expired batteries for a few years before the capacity got too low and I bought replacements off ebay. They are fair sized for what it is, something like 2x 14ah. Been thinking about grabbing 4 golf cart batteries, or a couple 200ah battery and hooking it up to the external battery port (24v system). It's designed for sealed lead acid batteries, so it shouldn't allow them to get over voltage. I could use the extra capacity since I have 2 computers, 2 monitors, and all my networking equipment on them plus a NAS (network attached storage), and a phone + phone server (basic VoIP).

I think my uncle was trying to run cheap sealed lead acid batteries in a lawn mower, if I recall correctly they did alright, I think they lasted about 2 years and that's removing them for winter and storing in a heated garage.

I know the super caps can withstand several multitudes more charge cycles than normal batteries, but I think the main thing that kills them would be time. I don't think I could name one vehicle that would normally be started 500k times in 10 years. That's over 130 starts per day. If time has less of an effect on them than what websites suggest, then it seems like hands down they would be better than a standard battery setup. They are smaller and such generally anyway, so if you change vehicles, could swap it out to the newer vehicle too. Maybe one battery for the rest of your life =). If I recall correctly a normal cap is known to last around 20 years for a quality brand, yet there's plenty of electronics that are much older with good caps yet. I can't remember the law, but because most electronics have more than one battery, for every extra battery, the chance of a failure is increased that many more times. Like 1 battery vs 4 batteries, you should be 4 times more likely to have a battery problem vs the single battery setup.

For car batteries, I can see why some people have terrible luck with them while other's they seem to last forever for. I rarely have battery problems, I have like 3 spare batteries for junk vehicles and they generally go bad from sitting before I need one lol. For lead acid based batteries, voltage is everything, if they get too low on charge they degrade pretty fast. A full discharge on them is extremely bad for them. I've been looking on and off for a trickle charger that doesn't work like a charger, but instead maintains the battery for long term storage, something like it charges the battery to say 13-13.5v then lets it sit till it hits 12.4v (slightly under fully charged) and bumps it back to the charge range to bring the battery back to 12.6v. I know they exist, I've seen one at a parts store, but marketing and listings are so poorly done it's hard to find what I want. Maybe I need to program a micro controller to do it for me, or go the less complex route and dedicate a 2 amp battery charger per battery and throw them all on a timer to run 30-60 mins a day (just enough to keep the battery topped up).

This is a really neat topic, I've seen the super caps used in cars in the past and figured it would be a neat tech to play with. The only down side is generally you loose cranking capacity using the super caps, like how long you can crank for, not the actual amps. With a good running machine it shouldn't need much crank time to start though, if not then there's clearly an issue that needs to be fixed.

[ATC King]

We'll have to wait to see how these work their way into gas and electric cars, but in the meantime, I'm going to incorporate them into my old crap. Super Cap + Old Crap = Super Crap?

I'll post my results.

Also, the old aluminum electrolytic caps are what I'll keep using for the pull start trike DC conversions. They're actually stupid expensive for what they are though, considering the price of new super caps and the performance difference. The problem is the low voltage of each super cap, and the need to make a module out of them, when I can run just one 16v old style cap. Simpler packaging, and I'll stick with that for now, on those.

[Blmpkn]

So much electrical nerdiness in here lol. I like it. I don't understand it, but I like reading about it.

[ATC King]

Feel free to jump in anytime.

A lot of this is new to me, with the super caps. They've been available to the general public for a good while now, but I'm just getting into them.

Some early adopters thought they'd work good as a car battery replacement, but soon found out that wasn't the case. Some of the companies, originally selling them as battery replacements, changed their focus. Some started marketing to the car audio crowd.

Here's one that's selling as a add on to a battery, so a smaller battery can be used: https://ioxus.com/english/products/ustart/

https://showtimeelectronics.com/ioxus-ultra-capacitor-12v-group-31-smart-power-ultracapacitor-capacitor-uc-31-uc31/

What I'm using isn't anywhere near that powerful. I'm just dipping my toes in the water and wanting a slight increase in cranking power with my pickup's standard battery, and a more stable electrical system.

[ps2fixer]

One idea that might be good is to make a fuse encase of a short on the super caps. I'm not sure what the formula is called but it's basically a bare copper wire that can burn away after x amps is down, like 800a. Doubt you can find a fuse for that so I suspect the only way is to build your own. 800 amp might be too high and the actual wire harness still ends up being the fuse (first thing to burn out and catch fire). Not really a requirement, just thinking encase a wrench ever dropped under the hood and shorted out the terminals or similar. Could stop from having a bad day lol. The idea comes from large DIY battery banks made from 18650 cells, there's a guy on youtube that bought sized wire like that to use as a fuse (20 amp per cell) encase any of the cells went bad and drew too much or any kind of shorts happened. Of course it's a little different type of a setup.

I'm also somewhat new to electronics even though I've messed with them most of my life. I know the surface level stuff fairly well, and some basic power supply stuff and very very basic micro controller understanding (I can program them atleast). Beyond that is uncharted territory for me. I've only made two electronic things from scratch, a peak voltage adapter for my multi meter (high voltage cap + diode + high resistance resister to drain the cap slowly), and a thermostat for my house/wood stove setup. It includes 3 temp probes (house, wood stove room to detect if wood stove making heat, and under the house to monitor water pipe air temps) and it controls 2 solid state relays, one for the wood stove blower and a fan that blows air under the house from the wood stove room. The programming was simple, wiring was more or less simple, hardest part was getting the right math to convert a resistance value into a temp and the physical build of it. I guess I can say I've done more with electronics than most, but no where near as much as anyone that is actually big into electronics.

[ATC King]

I made a bracket specifically for the capacitor.

266469266470266471


Funny story...

I thought there was enough clearance where I originally had it, but it turned out the rubber supports for the seat squish more than I thought, and the seat latch bracket actually poked a hole in the capacitor. It's still working though, so I put some silicone over the hole and back on it went.

[big specht]

So after all this reading what all hanging out stuff is needed to use led light or a 185/200 ?

[ATC King]

I'll try to condense it.

A little electrical humour. Capacitors used to be called condensers.



All parts I used were regulator/rectifier (Cheap Ebay unit), 16v capacitor, and a custom plug-and-play wire harness. Two main components and a harness. Easy stuff. Maybe if enough people wanted a plug-and-play harness, ps2fixer would oblige.

It doesn't have to be as large as a capacitor as I used, but does need to be 16v or even a little higher.

What makes this easy on a 185S/200S (and some other hardtails) is the stator is not grounded on one end. Both wires from it go out and to the wire harness. Other trikes like the 200X, would require a modification to the stator or something a little funky be done to the wiring.

The capacitor is only there to smooth out the power. It will hold a charge, but doesn't have the density of a battery. A powerful LED will quickly drain it without the engine running. A large capacitor or super capacitor will illuminate a low power LED for a while though, without the engine running.

Many LED spot and fog lights have voltage limiting circuitry built in and can operate on a range of voltage, like from 10v-24v, but that doesn't mean it's good for them or their circuitry to continually deal with voltage fluctuation, which is why the reg/rec and capacitor is important.

An LED is technically a diode and only allows current in one direction, and can function on AC within it's specified voltage range, but again, that isn't good for it and the pulsing light is annoying as hell. There are several YouTube videos of people hacking on LEDs to their trikes without a proper DC system and the result is as expected.

With a proper system, other accessories could be added, like a USB port for charging a phone. A battery can be used in lieu of the capacitor, but that would be better to add a on/off switch and fabricating a robust battery holder (just more stuff and cost).


Edit: I guess there wasn't a wire harness explanation in here, so...

Depending on the trike, there's going to be a yellow and green wire coming from the stator. Those will connect to the typically, pink and yellow wires of the reg/rec. This is for a four wire reg/rec. Those with a fifth and black wire, use that wire not for a ground, but voltage sensing and it's supposed to be hooked to a switched power source, which can be confusing, but it's definitely NOT a ground wire. Some of Honda's motorcycles use a reg/rec like that. The reg/rec green wire is connected to the green (ground) wire in the harness and the capacitor's negative terminal. The reg/rec red wire to the harnesses yellow wire and the capacitor's positive terminal.

With an inexpensive motorcycle wire connector kit, and some terminal crimping pliers, it's not difficult to build the needed harness and there's absolutely no modifications needed to the stock harness; plug-&-play.

[ATC King]

System is still working good. I did have to replace the damaged capacitor though, it gave up the ghost.

I noticed the headlight flashing at higher RPMs, checked the capacitor, and it was dead (not holding a charge). Even with the capacitor removed, the headlight would flash at higher engine speeds, so that shows what it's doing to smooth out the system.

I replaced it with the exact same type. For anyone who hasn't read back a post or two, the original got a hole poked in it by the seat bracket because of where I had it installed.

[big specht]

Thanks for the up date

[ps2fixer]

Cool stuff, seems a capacitor might be a good solution, just they aren't the most hardy of constructions, but that's pretty easy to work around.

[ATC King]

If I had poked a flat piece of steel through a lead acid battery, I'm pretty certain it would have failed too, except it would have been a much bigger mess.

Now that the capacitor has it's own bracket, out of harms way, it should hold up just fine.

[ATC King]

I replaced that stupid large LED light with something smaller, so it wouldn't dim at idle.

The stock headlight bulb is 35 watts, and obviously dims at idle, so it's clear the OEM stator doesn't deliver 35 watts at idle.

Today, I measured the previous LED watts, and it turned out to be about 26W (2.1 amps @ 12.2 volts). So anything that high, is to much for the stock stator to handle at idle too. Inefficiencies have to included for the reg/rec, because there's some power lost there.

The previous LED was a little hectic, with no real optics. It was just a crap load of LEDs, with a very rudimentary reflector. In other words, cheap and inefficient.

I bought one of these to replace it:

https://usa.alpena.ca/trailfire.html
267293

Still an inexpensive light, but at least there is an attempt at real optics. It also doesn't dim at idle now; rock steady. The listed specs say it's 8.4W.

Edit: I rode it with the new light yesterday, and being realistic, it's more than enough illumination. Compared to what these came with, it's loads better. A much wider, brighter, and steady beam that doesn't dim at idle. Still, I may add a pencil beam to it, something low power, but with a projector lens. It would be nice to get that narrow, long distance shine on, but to do it, will probably take a single dedicated light, because most of the unit type LED assemblies don't incorporate something that focused.

[ATC King]

The image of the optional DC kit wiring in an earlier post can still be a bit vague, so I made up a simple diagram that's easier to read. Keep in mind that as long as a four wire reg/rec is being used the wire colors can be different but the function is the same.

My diagram is based on a 185S, so the two stator wires are yellow and green and don't confuse the green stator wire with ground because it never is a ground wire in the sense that neither the yellow or green is grounded to the chassis until connecting to the main harness. That means only after both stator wires go into the reg/rec, does the green/black wire coming from the reg/rec become a ground connected to the battery and the main harness. Another way to say it is once DC converted a voltmeter can be used to measure DC voltage at the headlight socket ground (green) wire whereas before the voltmeter would have to be switched to AC to measure the voltage.

Also, if using a battery, a fuse and on/off switch to the battery positive should be included for safety and to prevent a drained battery. My diagram doesn't include that. With a battery and without a fuse, a short could end in smoking wires and potentially a burned trike.

268532

[ps2fixer]

All looks good to me in the image above. One thing to note is that the regulator/rectifier doesn't make "true" DC, it's a dirty form of DC called rectified DC. For a battery, lights, etc it's no problem. Adding a 12v aux port and charging your phone, it may or may not work. Anything more sensitive like that I'd suggest adding the battery even just a small one to smooth the voltage out.

This is a horrible scan, but it helps show the pin out of the regulator/rectifier. This is based on the ATC200ES, but the 200E and 200M should be the same pinout too. One thing to keep in mind when looking for a regulator/rectifier is specs, the stock 200es,e, and m put out 50w max. It likely is over rated for the actual power output of the machine, but that's your energy budget and there are losses involved so the real max is likely closer to 45w (accounting for 10% loss in conversion).

Here's a basic pinout guide if the regulator/rectifier has wires (based on ATC King's post above)

Yellow + Yellow or Yellow + Green = AC input
Green or Black = DC Neg output
Red = DC Pos output

*Some* 5 wire regulator/rectifiers also have a key on signal wire, if it has 2 yellow or white wires, it's likely this design. If it has 3 yellow or white wires, then it's designed for a different stator design (3 phase). I'm pretty sure the 3 phase setup can work on a single phase like the 200es/e/m (and several more), but you need 3x the spec since you're only using 1/3 of the hardware. If max output is 50w, then you need a 3 phase regulator/rectifier that can handle 150w. That style generally has the ignition switch detection wire too, pretty sure it "turns on" the regulator/rectifier to prevent battery draw, but a lot of old ones don't have it.

https://i.gyazo.com/7722c1c3187aba35be3e4d95f2baa9f7.png

Also there's some scooter ones out there that's 4 wire that doesn't work. Beware of Chinese made ones, they seem to not regulate the voltage at all. You don't want your battery hitting over 15v if you run a battery, and lights will have a much shorter life at a higher voltage. LED's designed with a variable input voltage can generally handle up to around 30v and probably would work if there's enough of a load to keep it under the max voltage (no load can hit 50-70v+).

[ATC King]

Here's a basic pinout guide if the regulator/rectifier has wires (based on ATC King's post above)


Depends if someone views posts in ascending or descending order.

From my screen the first page shows the last post first. :lol:

Don't know about no 'dirty' DC, but as for true and modified AC sine wave, that horribly modified junk like with those cheap converters is a sure-fire way to jack up some electronics. A hair dryer or incandescent bulb could care less though. DC don't care too much as the battery smooth's everything out. All the electronics in modern cars run on alternators that make AC current which is then rectified for direct control of dem cars currently heading in a direction.

Every modern electronic in a house on grid uses rectified DC because the entire house if fed AC. Even so-called brushless DC generators use rectification because they don't make DC like a brushed one. The little bottle generator on my old bicycle makes DC, but the dynamo hub on my other bike makes AC which is rectified by the LED light assembly so it's useable and to charge the small battery in the assembly. About the only thing on a modern home that makes DC is solar panels, but then it's inverted to AC so people can plug things in like normal then the power supplies convert that back to DC so the electronics can use it. Insanity.



A motorcycle I have uses the same basic DC system as the trikes and electronics charge and work just fine. Got to have a battery or capacitor though to smooth out that ripple.

The key-on reg/recs are more for remote voltage sensing because motorcycle/ATV wiring tends to have the main power junction farther away from the battery and it was an attempt to help the reg/rec see a more accurate system load. On that motorcycle of mine I got rid of that and put a modern four wire on it without an issue. The key switch was acting up and I think it was screwing with the voltage regulation.


I'm really just trying to keep the DC conversion thing simple for understanding. It certainly needs a battery or capacitor to function properly and keep from burning up the reg/rec. Anyone going over power budget will figure it out pretty quickly but there are some inexpensive tools out there to actually test how much something is drawing which is better than trying to get any accurate specs on Chinese products.

Speaking of Chinese products...China Freight has a 30 Amp automotive fuse circuit tester that with some adaptation will work to test electrical accessories. Do a little math with volts to figure out the watts and it's a handy tool to see how much junk the ATC can handle (at least above idle anyway). With any vehicle 12v system, a voltage gauge is always a good idea, because even a good and stable system can freak out at any moment and darn batteries aren't getting any less expensive. I'll take a voltage gauges over a tachometer any day if having to choose between the two. I'll instantly know when RPMs are zero but won't have a clue if charging is likewise or through the roof until it's too late.

Watts going to be energizing is modifying the stator on things with one wire coming out so the ground can be floated and add a full wave reg/rec. I've got a couple things around here that'll get that treatment.

https://www.harborfreight.com/30-amp-automotive-fuse-circuit-tester-67724.html

[ps2fixer]

Yea, dirty DC looks like this when there's no battery, the battery is the fix to the dirty power. Inside power supplies, large capacitors are used instead of a battery.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/jPhQP.gif

That's only without a battery, with a battery it's almost a perfect flat line like DC should be. To give an idea, here's what a capacitor does (tiny battery), they discharge off the peaks, a big battery you won't see much of a drop from peek to peek.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/IRvyk.png

This is getting pretty technical though, that's like electronics 101 though, like circuit level power supply area of electronics. I never had the class, but I'm pretty sure they start with power supplies.

Chinese specs don't exist, don't kid yourself, they are at best guesses, and at worst marketing bs (100k lumens! but only 55w.... but who knows if that 55w is even the actual power draw, more likely it's equivalent to 55w incandescent so it's more like 6w!).

You can run the 4 wire regulator/rectifiers on stators with internal grounds... the problem is you must float the DC output side instead of the AC input. Also have to be mindful if the housing is grounded at all or not and which side it's grounded on (likely output side). Another route you can take if you have plenty of energy budget overhead is to use a half wave rectifier (aka a single diode), but you'd still need a voltage regulator too and it seems they are generally separate in systems that are half wave rectified. The Goki kits used this logic for their ATC350X electric start kit but there's plenty of overhead to charge the battery through a diode while the lights etc run directly off the AC and the factory voltage regulator keeps the voltages in check for the battery. Yay for trying to keep things simple huh? I tried to keep it down to 2 and 3 wire systems, but you just had to bring up the 1 wire systems xD. If I recall correctly these are all the "1 wire" systems 350x, 250r, 200x. Most of the others should be 2 wire except 250es and 250sx were 3 wire (3 phase).

Also, forum default is oldest post on top, newest on bottom since most threads make the most sense reading as posts happened instead of reversed. I'm sure it's handy to see the newest post first if you're right on top of of when the thread was made and such though. Personally I like the forum default though. If it was more of a Q&A and answers were always the last post, then the reverse would be 100% my go to. It would be neat to have a plugin on the forums to let the orig poster pick a replies as answers though so you see the question, and 2nd post is the answer.

Btw, the diagram you made is basically the same thing as what Honda made in one of their diagrams for the ATC185S/ATC200 "DC Power Kit". An updated in color version is nice to have around though. Honda does show the fuse too.

https://i.gyazo.com/10b909f26d4ad875b8f45796b8974ad1.png

Of course without context it's not great, here's the section of the wire diagram it's referencing. It's a "T" adapter that goes between where the engine normally plugs into the main harness. The black/red wire which powers the CDI box is just a pass through. In this diagram shows it as a seperate wire, but if I remember right the newer ones moved it into the 3 pin connector. The factory kit works with both versions.


https://i.gyazo.com/9a913280a3d4586df42adba6b80ff6d2.png

[ATC King]

You can run the 4 wire regulator/rectifiers on stators with internal grounds... the problem is you must float the DC output side instead of the AC input.

Some people have done that but it's the lazy way that actually ends up costing more work. Now that the chassis is essentially hot, all harness grounds must be undone and any devices that have a ground separate from the harness's chassis ground must be connected to that, which is what you've said by floating the DC, I'm just showing what that means in terms of extra effort. Then other issues like wire abrasion against the chassis would potentially damage more than just popping a fuse.

I wouldn't consider it a proper setup. Just remove the stator unsolder the ground and add the extra wire to it and be done without having to mess with any of the main harness. On more popular machines there were/are places that sold modified stators just for that purpose in case someone was able to do it on their own or didn't have the down time.


Yeah, the GOKI kit likely done their lawnmower half wave setup to save cost and make installation easier. Low end residential riding mowers use that even though their stator probably doesn't produce as much power, but the headlights are seldom used and are low power so it works ok.

I've kind of been waiting to see if you're going to build and sell a harness for this 185/200 conversion. It's plug & play besides the purchaser having to mount the regulator, battery/capacitor. You'd have to sell a regulator with the harness though so they don't order one separately that's incorrect.

[ps2fixer]

Yep, everything but ignition parts would have to have the ground isolated. Which also means the stock harness design isn't friendly to that setup, both ways requires reworking things, but some people refuse to open their engine up so it's an alternative option. I prefer floating the stator side myself, but never done it either way. For a plug and play product, a redesigned harness could be used though where the lighting ground is floated while ignition is still grounded.

If I recall correctly, the 350x stator specs at 200w, lights are like 75-80w so there's still enough for 1amp or so of battery charging (24w effectively from the half wave). The numbers work, the voltage is regulated with the stock part, so it reduces the cost to the customer quite a bit. Having each person float the stator ground to have electric start would have been probably a barrier to entry too high for them to become mainstream at all. It does say in their manual to charge the battery before use and that their system doesn't work with low batteries. The diode is tiny! Like 1-2 amp rated max. A low battery drawing more could blow the diode and there's zero fuse protection. I've recreated the goki harness for a few people but used a "rectifier" from Honda which is a monster diode. I don't know the amp rating, but it's 50x physically larger so I think it could handle 5-10amp. I didn't feel right using a tiny diode when people were paying good money for an upgrade. I also made the harness to battery connections real simple wires, and suggested to have a fuse added in. At the time I didn't have a solid source for fuse holders that weren't China made junk.

Yea, I'll make a kit, but haven't focused on this in a while. My problem is I can't stand low quality junk parts. I tried 5 Chinese regulator/rectifiers and they all did not regulate the voltage (hit 20v+ with no load). Either it's just a rectifier and it's a scam to just sell people a part that can make as cheap as possible and doesn't do as it says, or the voltage regulation circuit can't handle a no load condition. Honda stock regulators seem to handle the no load issue fine, but there's no new source for them. I did have a supplier that sold the OE branded regulators, but that dried up when they stopped taking orders from the public and are suppliers for an internal network only now :(. They weren't cheap, but OE brand for slightly less than some more modern regulators from Honda. I haven't ran across a newer stock regulator/rectifier that matches the 4 wire setup.

For the key on wire, I haven't dug into it at all, but I figured it turned it on, but what you said makes me think it's a voltage sense wire similar to an automotive alternator. Problem is, the red wire from the battery is a much shorter run and should be a more accurate voltage reading, but maybe just the power draw over that wire causes enough of a voltage drop for a 2nd wire that's twice the length of the machine to sense the voltage.

I probably should just find a modern regulator/rectifier that's close enough for a reasonable enough price from Honda and make it work and test it out. Like I'm 99% sure a 3 phase one will work, it's just only using 1 phase of it, so needs to be a machine that outputs atleast 150w which isn't hard to find. I think the 3 phase ones are quite a bit more expensive though and most have the ignition switch sense wire so I didn't want to hot wire it to "hack" it to work as a product.

If someone needs one of these adapters made for a 185/200 and has a 200e/200es/200m regulator, I can build the adapter harness, I just need to know how long of a lead is needed to mount the regulator, or just guess and make it like 12-16in. I'm pretty sure I have all of the connectors on hand. The battery vs no battery setup is the only small issue. I've read that it's not good to have no battery, but the 350x has the same effective circuit and it doesn't have a battery. It just regulates ac voltage instead of rectified dc (maybe the voltage regulation is done before the bridge rectifier). Back when I was searching for this stuff more, I was tempted to build my own, the circuits aren't too hard to figure out, but the heat sink housing is the hard part to figure out, I really like the OE style, compact and works well.

[ATC King]

The last capacitor just went bad. trailpro

I don't know what caused it. It was after the last little crash, but I made it home that night a few weeks ago and it just went bad last night. I also had a light failure that I think was due to just being a cheap light (more on that later - bad assembly/ temperature management) and I still haven't put a fuse in the system. These capacitors are used/old, and maybe the way I have them mounted the vibration is hard on them.

I really don't want to switch to a battery. I threw one of the 12v capacitors I had on it for now and everything is fine again, but it may not last as the max voltage is too low and I had to put the higher power LED back on because the other one bit the dust (after the crash too?) It's not really large enough of a capacity either, but I'll run it until it dies or I move on to my next option; super capacitor.

I really don't want to bother with one of the bare super capacitors and having to make a box for it. I just don't want to spend the time doing that. I also don't need one large enough to crank an engine either, just something with enough capacity to keep the light from diming instantly at idle. I've got the one I've been running on my pickup for a year or so now, but that's way overkill as it'll actually start a 200ES on it's own without a battery.

This company has some that are packaged in a way I think will work good for the application.

http://www.mac-bat.com/

[ps2fixer]

The super cap is probably the best option. It's been a long time since I read my electronics books, I know there's low ESR caps for motherboards though, ripple and all of that. What you're using them for is more along the lines of a power supply cap though. Grab an old laptop power supply, or desktop power supply and grab out the 200-400v cap, bet that one is the right spec for the application assuming the vibration and such isn't the cause of the death. A small box of some sort and fill with epoxy might be a good way to weather proof it and protect the wire leads (solder wires to it maybe, or a connector?)

Super cap should just be a higher capacity normal cap, I think the physical design is a bit different too.

I don't remember the specs of the orig cap you put in, but one thing I thought of is if there's no load on the system, it might go very high voltage which might be the cause of killing the cap. My 350x easily hit 60v on the lighting coil with no load, and that's AC, so it hit even higher for true peak voltage.

[ATC King]

My whole hand wringing deal is me just trying to keep the voltage up past 12 at idle with the light on.

That means running a light with a power consumtion less than what the stator can provide at idle, or using a battery. The capacitor works just fine for smoothing out the system, it's just they don't have enough energy density to run a high powered LED for more than seconds at idle. A super capacity has much more energy density than the old style caps I've been using and if I run a light, at least on low beam, that is at or just under the system's idle capacity, the planets will align.

I'll have to look back in this thread, but the larger light I was and am again using is about 25 watts and the system doesn't provide that at idle. I did put a smaller, less powerful one on, but it kicked the bucket. It worked how I wanted until something took a doodoo.

I took it apart to have a look, and just look at the lack of thermal paste how poorly the board fit to the housing. There's clearly a large gap back there because the paste wasn't hardly even squished around. The paste was still tacky though. All the materials and time to produce something that looked the part of quality, only to skimp on paste or time to make sure it's all assembled well.

268951268952

Probably just ONE of the differences between cheap LEDs and quality ones.


BTW, the reg/rec is doing it's job just fine. When the cap is good, voltage holds steady at a little over 14.

[ps2fixer]

I see. On the cheap LED front, my dad has bought a lot of them off ebay and such, from driving lights on cars, headlights, led light bars on quads/trucks etc. They almost always draw less power than they claim (about 1/3 to 1/2), so that's roughly how much dimmer they are than they should be. The power supplies in them aren't great, and as you've seen with yours, they look the part of quality, but the thermo paste is always lacking. It seems they use components that are under spec for the job, either poor design or designed to fail so you buy another, guessing it's a little of both.

Over on Diesel Creek (youtube channel), he got some LED lights that looked pretty impressive and when I looked up the prices, they weren't half bad, maybe 1.5-2x the price of chinese lights of similar wattage. They are still made in China, but there's a brand name behind them. Hyper light. Showed them to my dad and he bought a couple to test. The 30w one pulls about 33w (30w worth of LEDs = ~10% loss in the power supply I'm guessing). They are very bright and seem to be built well, or atleast better than the no name lights. He's only had them for days/weeks, so not sure how they are for long term. They have 12v and 120v variations. He's bought some bigger lights now since he was impressed with them, and all of the 120v lights he tested were using a kilowatt meter.

My opinion is the Chinese quality seems to be ok, if only they could just add 100% more quality to their work/component choices. Doubling the price would be no big deal if it actually worked well and lasted. China would take over the world and be the go to place for cheap *and* reliable electronics.

Anyway, I couldn't remember if you had a regulator/recitifer or which machine it was installed in, so with it shouldn't allow for power spikes I'd think. I know a lot of people say they aren't great with out a battery/draw but I never monitored one myself with an o-scope.


Back to the LED thing for a bit, my dad and I both have cheap chinese outdoor flood lights. All of his are burning up including the orignal one I got as well. I had some 3 watt LED's I bought off ebay a while back that are likely Chinese made, so I bought a 10w driver board, again probably chinese made and "rebuilt" the LED light. Hardest part was mounting the LED's to the heat sink, pretty much hillbilly rigged it up with some thermo paste in the center and clue around the edge lol. The China lights lasted months, mine is on 24/7 driving 4 3w leds (12w max rated) at 10w for 2 or 3 years now. Still looks bright and have had no problems with it at all. The parts to rebuild it was probably cheaper than the original price of the light and today they are probably even cheaper. It's just a little light to light the porch area at night. Some day I'll wire up the light sensing eye I have for it so it cycles with the night cycle.

[ATC King]

I've got a lot of LEDs in incandescent/hallogen housings. It took a while to find A. - ones that illuminated the housing properly & B. - that didn't burn out in short order.

I've also been through several pod type LED aux lights. There are some Rigids on my moto that've been working great for the better part of a decade.

The automotive style LED headlight I put in the 200ES is still working great. It's worth mentioning that even on the 200ES, which already has a DC system, at idle and with the OE lights on, the battery is discharging. Only the three phase systems like on the 250SX and 250ES charge decent at idle. None of the other 125/185/200 trikes have a charging system that will charge the battery AND power lights at idle. That's evedent by the way the stock AC lights even dim at idle. Switching the stock lights for LED can make that possible though.

[ZacH_GrifF]

Having an interesting issue. I bought a cheap kohler reg/rec off Amazon and hooked up both stator output wires to the outer prongs labeled AC and putting my tester on DC voltage I only get 2.3v DC or 1.0v DC depending on which polarity I hook the stator wires to the reg/rec. I’ve checked the ground from the engine case to the reg/rec housing and it checks good. I get around 16v AC when I check the stator output without the reg/rec. Did I buy the wrong reg/rec or is something not right here?

Bike is a 83 185s

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220118/30a40fcc55b7c2fb5d7b735c267136c3.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220118/e1a56f2e344c2a331ea322fbfc8885e6.jpg

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[ps2fixer]

Is thre a watt/amp rating for the regulator/rectifier, or the stator specs for the engine it was designed for? The ATC185S puts out a max of 50w (4.2amp @ 12v).

What voltage do you read at idle with the ac wires disconnected and reading them directly with the meter? Pretty sure it would be a bit higher than 16v, but I don't normally mess with alternators like that. Another option is if you have the stock blubs hook them up to the ac wire to "load" test the circuit to make sure the AC side is putting out what you expect (stock bulbs are 45w + 5w). You should be able to also put the same bulb on the DC side and get a similar load test through the regulator/rectifier. There will be a slight loss as nothing is 100% efficient.

One odd thing in your pic is you have your meter hooked up right on DC, but it's showing a neg voltage meaning the output is reversed to what it *should* be. Only thing I can think of is it's defective, or you exceeded it's specs.

[ZacH_GrifF]

Is thre a watt/amp rating for the regulator/rectifier, or the stator specs for the engine it was designed for? The ATC185S puts out a max of 50w (4.2amp @ 12v).

What voltage do you read at idle with the ac wires disconnected and reading them directly with the meter? Pretty sure it would be a bit higher than 16v, but I don't normally mess with alternators like that. Another option is if you have the stock blubs hook them up to the ac wire to "load" test the circuit to make sure the AC side is putting out what you expect (stock bulbs are 45w + 5w). You should be able to also put the same bulb on the DC side and get a similar load test through the regulator/rectifier. There will be a slight loss as nothing is 100% efficient.

One odd thing in your pic is you have your meter hooked up right on DC, but it's showing a neg voltage meaning the output is reversed to what it *should* be. Only thing I can think of is it's defective, or you exceeded it's specs.

Thanks. I actually just went and checked the reg/rec according to a procedure from another forum and I think my reg/rec is faulty.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220119/f3a514a4d39e3a3f148dbbefe4ceaddf.jpg

If I check the continuity between the dc prong and each of the AC prongs, one at a time, one gives me 0.0 Ohms and the other prong has no continuity


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[ps2fixer]

That post seems to lack a lot of details, like what a good ohm reading should be so you know what range it should be set in. A low resistance or inf seems like a wide range lol. Meters also have a "diode" test option, typically with the beep setting and it puts out actual voltage to get past a diode (0.7v drop typically). I know you can test diodes fairly easily, but with it being a bit of a black box, I can't really say for sure how to test it. The regulator technically is 4 wire/contacts, 2 ac, 2 dc, just like a Honda regulator/rectifier like off of an ATC200ES. I haven't had any luck with the Chinese ones so I've stuck with OEM or new with real specs provided. The rectifier section is almost always fullwave, it boils down to 4 diodes, very very simple circuit and extremely cheap. It's the voltage regulator that is the more complicated part.

Besides the 4 wire style regulator/rectifier, there's a 5-6 wire version too, the primary thing to focus on is the number of input pins though, generally yellow wires. 2 = single phase (same as your machine) and 3 = 3 phase which is like an ATC250ES. 3 phase should work, but you need 3x the spec because all of your power is only using one phase of the regulator rectifier. It's a 6 diode bridge rectifier instead of 4 and again a voltage regulator circuit afterwards.

The voltage regulation on these machines are generally load based, or in other words, short the excess power to ground and generate heat as a byproduct, so specs are pretty important since no load on the system is maxing out the regulator/rectifier since it's sinking the full load to try to stay in the 13.5-14.5v target range.



Some day I need to dive back into the regulators and try to find a quality source with a good water proof connector and such, maybe from a modern quad that's 3 phase and wire it up for these older machines. The components to build a regulator/rectifier isn't really all that much, the hardest part is sourcing a connector and a suitable housing to sink the heat to (needs to be metal).

[ZacH_GrifF]

That post seems to lack a lot of details, like what a good ohm reading should be so you know what range it should be set in. A low resistance or inf seems like a wide range lol. Meters also have a "diode" test option, typically with the beep setting and it puts out actual voltage to get past a diode (0.7v drop typically). I know you can test diodes fairly easily, but with it being a bit of a black box, I can't really say for sure how to test it. The regulator technically is 4 wire/contacts, 2 ac, 2 dc, just like a Honda regulator/rectifier like off of an ATC200ES. I haven't had any luck with the Chinese ones so I've stuck with OEM or new with real specs provided. The rectifier section is almost always fullwave, it boils down to 4 diodes, very very simple circuit and extremely cheap. It's the voltage regulator that is the more complicated part.

Besides the 4 wire style regulator/rectifier, there's a 5-6 wire version too, the primary thing to focus on is the number of input pins though, generally yellow wires. 2 = single phase (same as your machine) and 3 = 3 phase which is like an ATC250ES. 3 phase should work, but you need 3x the spec because all of your power is only using one phase of the regulator rectifier. It's a 6 diode bridge rectifier instead of 4 and again a voltage regulator circuit afterwards.

The voltage regulation on these machines are generally load based, or in other words, short the excess power to ground and generate heat as a byproduct, so specs are pretty important since no load on the system is maxing out the regulator/rectifier since it's sinking the full load to try to stay in the 13.5-14.5v target range.



Some day I need to dive back into the regulators and try to find a quality source with a good water proof connector and such, maybe from a modern quad that's 3 phase and wire it up for these older machines. The components to build a regulator/rectifier isn't really all that much, the hardest part is sourcing a connector and a suitable housing to sink the heat to (needs to be metal).

Amazon is pretty great tbh they just sent me a new one and I can return the old one within 30 days. So I should know regardless in 2-3 days whether it was bad or not or if it’s just not compatible but I mean it should work


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[ps2fixer]

Try the ohm test or whatever that other post was trying to suggest and compare the two of them. If the new one doesn't work I suspect any readings would probably change if it's over loaded.

Either case, would be interesting if it works long term, atleast another option for a regulator/rectifier for this era of machine.

[ZacH_GrifF]

Try the ohm test or whatever that other post was trying to suggest and compare the two of them. If the new one doesn't work I suspect any readings would probably change if it's over loaded.

Either case, would be interesting if it works long term, atleast another option for a regulator/rectifier for this era of machine.

Will do


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[ATC King]

Having an interesting issue...

That regulator may need a battery connected to function. Any vehicle 12v battery will do, use a car battery if that's all you have. Connect the ground to the reg (just to make certain it's a good ground) and the positive to the center terminal. Just be careful if you're futzing around with a car battery without using a fuse in the system, and obviously don't wear rings or bracelets.

Battery should be above 12.5 when resting and if that reg is operational and the system is charging, you should see mid 13 to mid 14 volts with the engine running.



BTW, please put a bolt in that fuel tank mount. You're scaring me.

[ZacH_GrifF]

That regulator may need a battery connected to function. Any vehicle 12v battery will do, use a car battery if that's all you have. Connect the ground to the reg (just to make certain it's a good ground) and the positive to the center terminal. Just be careful if you're futzing around with a car battery without using a fuse in the system, and obviously don't wear rings or bracelets.

Battery should be above 12.5 when resting and if that reg is operational and the system is charging, you should see mid 13 to mid 14 volts with the engine running.



BTW, please put a bolt in that fuel tank mount. You're scaring me.

I will try that and I already learned why to bolt the tank down this weekend lol. Throttle stuck and I panic grabbed the front brake and I went over the handlebars. Busted the rear fender and the tank came half way off. I landed in soft sand so I didn’t get hurt

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220119/851b674e30b53f990d918652e797b8cd.jpg


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[ATC King]

Nice. Sounds like you were having a good time. Glad you weren't wadded up.

Those kinds of crashes are just learning experiences, but my experience has been that I'm a slow learner. I wrung my bell so hard once while crossing up some ruts, I forgot where the hell I was a moment, only knew that I was laying on the ground. My MP3 player got smashed and there was just car horn sounds coming out of the ear buds in my helmet. I was thouroughy confused for a minute.

It's odd. These carbureted trikes can actually run upside down for quite a while.

[ZacH_GrifF]

Nice. Sounds like you were having a good time. Glad you weren't wadded up.

Those kinds of crashes are just learning experiences, but my experience has been that I'm a slow learner. I wrung my bell so hard once while crossing up some ruts, I forgot where the hell I was a moment, only knew that I was laying on the ground. My MP3 player got smashed and there was just car horn sounds coming out of the ear buds in my helmet. I was thouroughy confused for a minute.

It's odd. These carbureted trikes can actually run upside down for quite a while.

I got the new reg/rec in. It tested the same as the old so I’m sure both are actually fine. I had to hook up a battery like you suggested. It now charges about 12.8v at idle and 14.7~ revved up about half throttle. The stock headlight no longer dims at idle so thats a plus. Just have a standard sealed lead acid battery wired up right now. Will be getting a smaller lithium anti gravity battery and making a mount for it once in comes in. Preciate the help guys

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220120/aa20c8e61c884e8531d975d13018e28b.jpg


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[ps2fixer]

Nice, I knew some regulators don't like being ran w\o a battery, but haven't came across one yet like that so it didn't even pop in my mind as an option lol. I guess I'm spoiled with the OE Honda ones xD.

Once you get the machine together enough to ride around and such, would be interesting to hear how it holds up after a long ride with lights off and ideally battery fully charged (no draw so max workload for the regulator). It can get warm, but not sure how hot is too hot. Probably hot enough that you don't want to hold onto it. The wiring is probably 80C rated which I'd guess most components inside are rated for or higher. The main limitation should be heat and it looks like the heat sink is a reasonable size.

Anyway, thanks for reporting back, always good to know what the solution was.

[ZacH_GrifF]

Nice, I knew some regulators don't like being ran w\o a battery, but haven't came across one yet like that so it didn't even pop in my mind as an option lol. I guess I'm spoiled with the OE Honda ones xD.

Once you get the machine together enough to ride around and such, would be interesting to hear how it holds up after a long ride with lights off and ideally battery fully charged (no draw so max workload for the regulator). It can get warm, but not sure how hot is too hot. Probably hot enough that you don't want to hold onto it. The wiring is probably 80C rated which I'd guess most components inside are rated for or higher. The main limitation should be heat and it looks like the heat sink is a reasonable size.

Anyway, thanks for reporting back, always good to know what the solution was.

I’ll update later with how it’s holding up. Thanks


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[Kcabbie]

Sorry to bring back a dead thread. I've been messing with my 81 185s for the last few days. Thought I had received a bad rectifier so got another. But it's giving me the same result. Here is my issue(s)

18vac input - 6-7vdc output
Still reading ac voltage on output
Output does not increase at all with rpms
Volts drop to 2-3 when small led is turned on like it's shorting

I've been reading about a floating ground for the first time. I believe this machine is that way from the start(has a dedicated ground wire going to stator). For my wiring I left all original wiring intact because I wasn't aware the factory light would work on DC and I would like to keep it working. I T'd into the yellow/ green wires where the stator harness connects to the main harness and ran my dc wires to a small led light through a separate isolated switch for my headlights. Thats where I'm still showing ac voltage which I feel like is a clear indication my rectifier isn't doing its job.

Heres the rectifier I used. Specs are "AC Input Voltage: 20-60V Max Watt: 55W Cable"

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B091MMPPZY?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_image
Thanks for any help!

[ATC King]

Just have a standard sealed lead acid battery wired up right now. Will be getting a smaller lithium anti gravity battery and making a mount for it once in comes in.


If I were going to run that expensive of a battery, I'd install a digital volt gauge on the bars to keep an eye on the system. I know they have a BMS, but if something went goofy and the system started charging 15v or more, I'd want to know, pronto. If charging stopped, that'd be OK because of the Re-Start feature on the AG batteries keeping it from going totally flat.


Just double-checking, I pulled this from the AG site.

"The maximum voltage the battery should be exposed to is 14.7V. On the lower end of the voltage range the battery should be put on a charger if the battery voltage drops below the 12.5V range while sitting."

https://antigravitybatteries.com/help-center/faq/lithium-starter-batteries/#electrical-charging

[ATC King]

I T'd into the yellow/ green wires where the stator harness connects to the main harness...

That's likely the problem.

According to the information on that product's page: "Wire: Red to Battery +, Green to Battery -, Yellow and Pink AC input, connect to magneto coil."

Yellow will still go to yellow, but pink needs to go to the green stator wire. You can't just 'tie' into the harness either, the yellow and green wire from the stator are now both in play and must only feed the reg/rec. All other grounds after that can remain as stock. If you want any DC system to function properly, it also needs an energy storage device, like a battery or capacitor.

[Kcabbie]

Followed Zach's suggestion and added a battery in the circuit. Charges at 12.7 volts at idle with the led light on high. Very happy!

[Kcabbie]

That's likely the problem.

According to the information on that product's page: "Wire: Red to Battery +, Green to Battery -, Yellow and Pink AC input, connect to magneto coil."

Yellow will still go to yellow, but pink needs to go to the green stator wire. You can't just 'tie' into the harness either, the yellow and green wire from the stator are now both in play and must only feed the reg/rec. All other grounds after that can remain as stock. If you want any DC system to function properly, it also needs an energy storage device, like a battery or capacitor.

Sorry for the confusion. Pink was hooked up to the green wire coming from the stator. You were dead on about the storage device! Adding a Battery to the output side of the rectifier made it work perfectly. Charges at 12.7 volts at idle with lights on. My xr50 does okay without a battery but think I'll get another one of the trail tech 12v battery packs for it too.

[ATC King]

I'll get another one of the trail tech 12v battery packs for it too.

Please post later how that TT NiMH pack holds up on the trike.

Here's a link to that product for anyone interested: https://www.trailtech.net/en-us/shop/accessories/motorcycle-parts/electrical/electrical-components/battery-pack-nimh-12v-3700-mah/?pfm=Browse

Nothing fancy going on there. There's not much info, but I think it's just NiMH batteries (AA) without a BMS. If already having the tools, someone could make one at home for much less. I guess if a cell or two goes out of balance, there's much less chance of a fire than with the lithium types with no BMS.

[ATC King]

I've added a super capacitor module and got to what I'll consider a finished point on the conversion. That includes a switched USB port and voltage gauge.

I'll post these pics and try to clarify some of it.

27014327014427014527014627014727014827014927015027 0151270152

The super capacitor module is from here: http://mac-bat.com/

It's not an endorsement. I've bought and am current running several of the 20f packs on vehicles with batteries as a booster and to smooth out the electrical system. They certainly add some ompf, but aren't meant to run like I am on the 185S, without a battery. I see how they hold up when used like that.

The two pics with the headlight on are with the engine off. The module won't power it as long as a chemical type of battery, but it'll stay illuminated for a minute or two. I've yet to try and charge a phone with the engine off to see how much it'll do before dropping past 12v, but it'll certainly put some charge on a phone without the engine running.

The wiring at the rear is with marine grade blade connectors, which I then put heat shrink over after plugging them in. That keeps them better sealed an all I have to do to unplug them is nick and pull the heat shrink off. A cheap version of weather tight connectors I guess. I was also working with three different gauge wires, but the connectors I used all have the same size blades and receptacles regardless of wire size, which made that easy.

Since I'm not using the module as a starting booster, there's no need for the large gauge wire. They're meant to connect to a battery and that large wire is so it'll dump it's juice when hit with a large load. I'm just running a couple LED lights and USB charger.

I installed a weather resistant fuse holder and put a 10amp fuse. I just zip tied it to the first convenient spot I seen on the frame. In hindsight, I could have chosen another location to clean up the wiring some. It's staying there until it runs afoul of anything.

When moving up front and wiring, I only use the Japanese style connectors so I don't murder the harness. These are very inexpensive and there's really no valid excuse to not use them. A good set of crimping pliers is a must.

I really wanted to put the USB switch next to the grips on the bars but there just wasn't anywhere it'd fit. A differently designed unit probably would but I've had some of these parts for a year or better and just wanted to get the project done. It's unobtrusive where at and better protected from damage. The light function on the switch is optional but I wired it up to illuminate when the switch is on so maybe I don't forget to turn that red thing off even though the voltage gauge only come on with it to, as I have it wired.

Wiring the switch, USB (has it's own wiring), and voltage gauge like I did means I can flick it on to check the voltage without turning a light on, and charge or power a USB device without a light on.

The lights are hardwired to the harness, just the same as OEM was (but the OEM obviously doesn't illuminate without the engine running). This way if I need light for a short while, I just use the original switch on the bars.

Nothing fancy or confusing. By wiring this way I also don't run everything through a single switch which gives flexibility and a bit of a fail-safe. No key, no goofy toggle switches.

I use handlebar top clamps from one of the electric start hardtail models, which have the tabs for mounting the handlebar pad/trim. These make easy mounting points for gauges or other accessories that need to be centrally located and out of harm's way. It'd certainly be a good place to mount a TrailTech Stryker...

I used thick plastic board for the voltmeter gauge mount. Aluminum plate would probably vibrate the thing to death. These trikes have vibration, there's no denying that and a metal plate stuck out there with only two bolts holding it on is a recipe for disaster, kind of like the license plates that were mounted like that which I've lost on a motorcycle.

The LED I'm using for a headlight is a modified projector with dual beams. One beam is lower and amber and the other white and higher. That works out great. Although it's a projector, the lens is oblong which trows a wider beam with a very sharp cutoff at the top. I chose it because of the lower power draw, but it'll still suck the module down in a couple minutes without the engine running and at idle the voltage will creep down. It has to be remembered that these systems have very limited capacity and even the stock headlight dims at idle. Adding electronics adds inefficiencies and lowers the total available output. There's no way to add a flame throwing LED on one of these and it not be affected at idle. Just have to compromise on power consumption and output.

I don't have a headlight bucket anymore so the wiring just gets wrapped with electrical tape and zip tied to the headlight bracket. That's one thing I'd certainly like to clean up with a small box bolted to the bracket but it's a functional issue. The wiring can be cleaner at the rear and I can continue to search and try different headlights, but all those peas can stay under the mattress for now and won't bother me.


No flicker, the ability to run/charge USB devices without destroying them. Project done. A word of caution with the 20f super capacitor module though. It'd dump about 50 amps almost instantly if shorted. These are not batteries and not toys. Watch the ends and probably take any rings off. There's no internal fuse. I've accidentally melted the original terminal on one.