84 Honda 200es Big Red Rear Brake Repair

[MrConcdid]

Ok guys, I give up, kinda, I never give up, but I am asking for help.
I can not remove right side the cover to replace the rear brake shoes on my 84 200es, i have all the cover bolts out, the water drain bolt out, the brake arm off, the 2 axle nuts off, the seal to the cover off and the copper shim off.
The cover spins with a tap of a hammer, but does not come off, i have pryed a little all around and different side at the same time but no. I is diffenitlly held on from the center either from the drum or bearing that's froze up IDK.
If I turn the brake arm pivot it will lock up the cover not allowing it to move, so I think the shoes are set inside the drum and that's whats holding the cover on?

#27 sir-clip, I do not see one on my machine, All I see is #4 the collar. and a #22 bearing

Thanks
MrC.

[floydechoes2000]

You're probably correct about the shoes hanging it up, I wonder if part of your lining separated. Mine came right apart, you don't have to remove #27, it just holds the bearing in place.

Here's a write up I did years ago, maybe it will help: https://forums.justbigreds.com/post/basic-honda-big-red-atc-front-and-rear-drum-brake-shoe-replacement-procedure-9838633?pid=1305339950

[agedatc]

Ok guys, I give up, kinda, I never give up, but I am asking for help.
I can not remove right side the cover to replace the rear brake shoes on my 84 200es, i have all the cover bolts out, the water drain bolt out, the brake arm off, the 2 axle nuts off, the seal to the cover off and the copper shim off.
The cover spins with a tap of a hammer, but does not come off, i have pryed a little all around and different side at the same time but no. I is diffenitlly held on from the center either from the drum or bearing that's froze up IDK.
If I turn the brake arm pivot it will lock up the cover not allowing it to move, so I think the shoes are set inside the drum and that's whats holding the cover on?

#27 sir-clip, I do not see one on my machine, All I see is #4 the collar. and a #22 bearing

Thanks
MrC.07bc5877c6d3cbcd2b872102adbd1ee93eaf6e22
Found this on the forum from 2013. Might be of help.

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[MrConcdid]

Here's what I'm seeing, thank you both for the information and links

Thanks
MrC.

[MrConcdid]

Based on the link you provided the splinned collar should slide off with the brake cover, mine is stuck on the spline.
I will soak it with PB blaster tonight and try again tomorrow, I was expecting a sir-clip or snap ring.
if that fails I will pull out the torch and heat the collar (I really don't want to do that)
Thank you again
MrC.

[floydechoes2000]

Looks like water may have gotten in there, I'd order a new bearing if you haven't already then just soak it and heat it. I bet the splines are just corroded. Keep at it gently but firmly and you'll get it off cleanly with patience.

[MrConcdid]

Seems odd, I cant tell if its the shoes hung in the drum (because I can spin the outer case by hand or a slight tap w/ hammer) or is it the bearing seized to the collar. I am thinking about a slide hammer, or place tension on it with a come-along or jack and then work the brake arm back and forth maybe jar or loosen the shoes. idk. I wont get to try till tomorrow night.
Thanks for all the help.
MrC.

[wonderboy]

Just to help isolate the problem, if it is the shoes hanging up, you won't be able to turn the case when you're pulling on it. In other words, if its the shoes binding up trying to pull off the case, they'll also bind up the rotation too.

My guess is rusty parts in the splines/bearing races.

If you use heat, you need to be careful about not getting the axle itself too hot and ruining the heat treat.

It's been a long time since I had my Big Red open, but can you work the entire axle out with the drum and cover attached? I haven't looked at the part breakdown to see if this is possible, but it is what I did on my front axle when it was seized. Getting the parts out of the rest of the machine could help isolate what you've got to hit/heat/beat. Again, I don't even know if this is possible but just a thought.

[MrConcdid]

Hi Wonderboy,

IDK if I can take the whole axle out or not, I thought about that, I know on the Honda 300 atv "shaft drive" that is how you remove the drum.
You may be correct, I can turn the cover but it does bind up, in different spots and not always in the same spot. if I turn the brake arm it locks up, if I pull or apply pressure on the cover it locks up, that why I keep coming back to the shoes are hanging up on the drum. I was thinking if I could over power the shoes and force them off the retaining post, but I run the risk of braking the cover of course.
The diagram shows a sir-clip before the collar. I did not have one, the link provided by floydechoes2000 does not show a sir-clip either. The rear housing looks to be two separate pieces one houses the main sprocket, the other the brake drum, I was even thinking about pulling the half that houses the brake drum if that's possible and attack it on the bench. Someone has been in here before, it is missing the return spring on the arm I will have to check the boneyard for one, one way or another its got to come off.

MrC.

[floydechoes2000]

The circlip is there, it's on the inside. It merely holds the bearing in place. You can see it in these photos:

https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/197099/4051067/DSC_8766.jpg

https://d28lcup14p4e72.cloudfront.net/197099/4051066/DSC_8761.jpg

[MrConcdid]

Well, that was not fun. Someone say a prayer, because tonight
4 screwdrivers, two punches and the axle bearing all lost there lives in the shop.

So what was wrong?
The bearing was froze the the collar and the collar is still frozen to the axle. I ended up destroying the bearing to separate the outer cover from the collar. I soaked it with PB blaster 24 hrs. I heated the collar with a torch, and still ended up using screwdrivers and chisels to wedge the cover off, but only after knocking the cage and bearings into the housing. the shoes were toast, one had lost the lining and stuck to the drum, the return spring was in 3 pieces inside drum.

Well there it is, time to order some parts now, thank you all for your help
I hope I can repay the favor in the near future.

MrC.

[MrConcdid]

Seems parts are getting harder to find (partzilla no go), I did find the bearing and Rocky Mountain and amazon and ebay, no one has the the round internal spring, I plan to fashion an external spring/bracket to assist with releasing the brake similar to the pedal spring. If I was keeping this one, I would look into a disc swap. But not this time.

MrC.

[floydechoes2000]

Glad you finally got it!

[MrConcdid]

Thanks,

Does anyone know the right size tapered thread and pitch lug nut for my 84 200es? I have searched but didn't find what I needed, the manual doesn't really say.
I was told it was told a tapered lug 10mm x 1.25 thread, so I order some, way to big.

Thanks
MrC.

[ironchop]

Thanks,

Does anyone know the right size tapered thread and pitch lug nut for my 84 200es? I have searched but didn't find what I needed, the manual doesn't really say.
I was told it was told a tapered lug 10mm x 1.25 thread, so I order some, way to big.

Thanks
MrC.Ok...... First, I like to download an OEM parts distributor app or go to their website online for help in this situation. I use Babbitt's or Partzilla. I took screenshots of what you need and posted them below.

Metric bolts are either coarse or fine thread. I posted a chart of metric thread pitches per size of bolt to help you in the future.

I have an 84 200es out in the garage and it DOES NOT use tapered nose lug nuts. They're just flange nuts because the bolt holes in steel wheels are not chamfered on that machine like the aluminum wheels on a 250R

If you have calipers you can measure the bolt diameter with them. Unless you have digital calipers with a metric button, you'll probably measure them in SAE size and then you MULTIPLY your SAE measurement by 25.4 to get it's size in millimeters. For example, you measure your bolt and let's say it's 0.394 in inches, multiply 0.394 by 25.4 and you get 10mm.....9mm is 0.354....3/8 (0.375) inch is between 9 and 10mm. Technically 3/8 inch is about 9.5mm so sometimes a tape measure or ruler will get you close to what you need to know

Convert millimeters to inch....divide mm size by 25.4

Concert inch to millimeters..... Multiply inch decimal size by 25.4

Now, if you don't have calipers you can look up the fastener on the OEM parts fiche and it almost always gives you the bolt diameter and length or the thread diameter of the nut depending on which you're looking for. In this case the fiche says it's 8mm. It's most certainly coarse thread so then you look at the chart below for 8mm coarse and you get 1.25mm pitch..... So M8x1.25 would be the size.

On Honda bolts, the fiche usually denotes the bolt length as well, so if you're ever missing a fastener and you don't know what size/length it was, you can refer to the parts fiche..... For example.... In the pic below, #7 lug bolt says "(8x25)" so it's 8mm coarse and 25mm long. Virtually all the fasteners on Honda ATCs I've worked on with the exception of only a handful on each model (usually inside the motor) are coarse thread...... For future reference since I know you've been working on alot of trikes... Hence the long answer to a short question


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200301/709d88366253c1c1fa750a91b6c51221.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200301/70beb079cbc6e305c807058300ab2f9c.jpg

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[ATC King]

At least you got it apart.

I've got a spare final drive with a bent axle, and I wanted to remove the axle to have it straightened. After a fair amount of various penetrating oils, heat, and hammer time, some even pneumatic, it didn't budge and has been sitting under a shop bench for several years. I looked at it yesterday, and still not even going to bother with it.

It's going to be one of those things I'll have to put in a large press, and when it finally lets go, there'll probably be parts flying everywhere like an explosion. Everything I put back together on these, get copious amount of anti seize grease.


The final drives on these seem be pretty tough, but things like replacing the rear brakes, often ends up being like your experience. Not a well thought out design for servicing.

[MrConcdid]

Thank you all for the wealth in information you each have brought to the table, I search high and low and didn't find anything about what to do when the cover doesn't come off.
The new bearing came in today, tonight I will reassemble and install the new brakes, I will take a few pics as well, you will not believe how nice the "Walmart Special" turned out
I kept working on it while waiting for for the bearing, I decided to give it a whole new set of tires, she is a real beauty.
I like the Ocelot tire 25x12-9 $54 each on amazon free ship, the tires mount up good ( i do them by hand ) so i can paint the wheels beforehand.
I have used this tire a few times, They ride good and look like Original equipment.
I could not find the internal round return spring so I am going to build a external coil type return spring like on the foot pedal. Should be pretty straight forward.
Again, Thank you all
MrC.

Ocelot Tire, split rim, painted hub/rim/fork
This past Saturday, Scenes from my shop.

I have a idea on a Frankenstein build and not so much a restore I will start a new thread on that one....

[agedatc]

Thank you all for the wealth in information you each have brought to the table, I search high and low and didn't find anything about what to do when the cover doesn't come off.
The new bearing came in today, tonight I will reassemble and install the new brakes, I will take a few pics as well, you will not believe how nice the "Walmart Special" turned out
I kept working on it while waiting for for the bearing, I decided to give it a whole new set of tires, she is a real beauty.
I like the Ocelot tire 25x12-9 $54 each on amazon free ship, the tires mount up good ( i do them by hand ) so i can paint the wheels beforehand.
I have used this tire a few times, They ride good and look like Original equipment.
I could not find the internal round return spring so I am going to build a external coil type return spring like on the foot pedal. Should be pretty straight forward.
Again, Thank you all
MrC.

Ocelot Tire, split rim, painted hub/rim/fork
This past Saturday, Scenes from my shop.

I have a idea on a Frankenstein build and not so much a restore I will start a new thread on that one....I'm glad I saw your post. I just got my 83 185s out of 12 year storage a couple months ago. Went through the carb and aftermarket rear suspension components, lubes the cables and checked the rear axle bearings for play and called it good. After seeing your post I decided to pull the rear drum just to see what shape it was in. Had to heat it up a bit and hammer some but it finally came off after about an hour of work. Look forward to seeing your next build.

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[MrConcdid]

Here is the "Walmart Special" now with new bearing and brakes, the new rear tires will be here soon.
The new Ocelot front tire is already on. Its ready to sale. It really is a shame to let it go.
MrC.

[ATC King]

Those Ocelot tires look plump!

Better than the Cheng Shin ones I have.