200e bottom end 200s top end

[Fullsizechevy9]

Are the bottom ends the same gear wise between the 2? When i looked it up it looked like everything was the same number wise only difference i saw was the final reduction was a higher number on the e. Are just the sprockets different to account for the difference in tire size? Also would i need to use the 200e harness to put the bottom end in my 200s? Im wanting electric start and already have an e for a parts bike. Would i be able to modify it so i can do away with the hi lo selector or is it pretty reliable? Im wanting electric start not only as a backup but just an easier way to start it i plan on putting a 10.25:1 wiseco piston in along with a bigger carb exhaust some port work and probably a number of other things to compliment the other mods. Can anybody recommend a cam that i would be able to keep my decompression lever functional? Im not looking for more bottom or top end specifically just a nice mid range cam that will help wake the motor up some.

[350for350]

The starter won't clear the down tube on the front of the frame. You'll have to modify this tube in order to use a 200E bottom end.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Yea i noticed that im sure i can brace it up and blend the welds in make it look decent might not have to brace it i see the e is just indented i could make a cutout and weld a plate in match the curve with the plate and blend the weld in should be plenty strong enough. Would the e harness work or would i need to modify the s harness? If its geared different im sure i can play with sprocket sizes. I would just use the e frame but its bigger and heavier plus i may use it for another project thinking about either a fat cat, a bigger motor, or a mud bike havnt decided yet. Thanks for the help

[ps2fixer]

I'd have to look at the 200E harnesses I have, but if the harness doesn't line up, I can make you a whole harness if you want to go with new and built exactly for your machine.

Besides the starter, pretty sure everything else should bolt right up. Final gear ratio should be the two sprockets, and since you mentioned different tire sizes, I'd bet that the final ratio accounting for tire size would be the same or very similar.

I've read the transfer case engines have issues fitting in the 200x frame, not sure about the other models though.

The 200E's stator I think puts out more wattage, so the 200S harness would be the right layout for the frame if the engine connectors line up right, but you'll need to wire in the regulator or you'd blow the light bulbs. The 200E harness would be wired for the regulator, but might be the wrong layout for the frame. Did you plan to use the electric start? That would require more electrical, starter solenoid and such. I'd say line up the 200E harness on the 200S frame and see how things line up. If the engine connectors are different, I can make a simple adapter if you want to use the stock harness.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Ok thats good to know since im going to be tearing it downto the frame and pretty much redoing everything i may just get you to make me a new harness so i know it will last and wont run into problems down the road. I will let you know when i start and figure out exactly what i have. I will def be using the electric start i will use the pull as a backup. Does it charge the battery also i would assume so kind of like a generator? I will also be going with a 200x front end probably so how would that work using the 200x headlight? May go with led but not sure i kind of like the stock look versus a light bar type headlight i know i would need to get a rectifier/regulator setup if i did that which i would get from you but more than likely just go with 200x headlight and stay with a stock type tailight may just get a nice cover made for the tailight.

[ps2fixer]

The 200E harness should already have a regulator rectifer, so already pre-setup for LED lights. Kind of the same story for basically all machines with stock batteries. The 200x light would be no problem, I can just make a sub harness to plug into the main harness the same as the 200E stock and have the 200x headlight plug at the other end. Lengths I'd have to rely on you for though.

The stator puts out AC power, should be 70W max for the 200E engine, the regulator/recitifer converts it to "Full Wave Rectified DC" and also limits the max voltage to be safe for lead acid batteries, so that's the charging system too. The ignition is completely separate from the lighting circuit, and I'm pretty sure the 200s and 200e used the same CDI part number as long as the harness has the same plug, I could double check though.

If your 200E machine doesn't have the regulator/rectifier, then the easiest thing to do is just buy a used one for that machine. I haven't ran across a regulator/rectifier that's affordable and pre-built for these machines. Most are some weird design for like a 2 phase moped or if it's for a larger engine, it ends up always being designed for 3 phase. Most of the 3 wheelers are single phase. I might know a guy that could build a regulator/rectifier, but I'm sure the costs would be pretty high for a custom built one. I do hope to find a main stream one that is over sized for this application though for a "DC Power Kit".

Anyway, The 83-85 200X stock headlight bulb is 60W and the tail light is 5w plus 1.5-3W per dash light. That's getting quite close to the max output of the 200E engine. If you draw more power than that engine puts out, it would slowly drain the battery, excess power would be charging the battery. I wouldn't think it would be a problem as long as you ride your machine often during the day, and rarely at night. For the sake of monitoring things, I'd say to get a cheap voltage gauge to wire up to monitor the battery voltage. Should never drop below 12v while cruising or the engine off. Cranking and idling with lights on, it likely will be draining the battery some and showing a bit lower voltage on the gauge.

If that's pushing the limits too much for your liking, the stock 200E light is 45w, and I'm pretty sure the same style of bulb is available in 45w to fit the 200x housing.

Here's the 45W light bulb that should fit the 200X housing, might be able to find one cheaper in the local automotive parts store, but they do exist at least.

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/34901-KJ9-003?ref=c323c2c01ea2df9a7f7183e539fca195fc02db06

[Fullsizechevy9]

Man your a genieus about this stuff without people like you it would really be some messed up trial and error type stuff. I would def take measurments off the s frame on where i will be putting my battery stuff like that . As for the headlight i would use the 45w for sure i want to make sure the battery gets a decent charge i will be riding at night sometimes.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Btw thanks for your time its great to have a good place like this to learn.

[ps2fixer]

Not a problem at all, I've dove into Honda 3 wheelers pretty far. Trying to slowly expand out to the other brands and touch into the early quads.

Measurements would be based on the stock locations of the 200s harness, like how long of a wire you'd need from say where the tail light wire splits out from the harness to where you plan to mount the starter solenoid. Once I figure out how it all splits apart, I can take the 200E wiring and basically push it into the 200s custom layout. Could clean it up a little and combine some splits into 1 location and such, but that would take more measuring and probably a "string harness" to make sure all the leads are plenty long enough.

Anyway, I haven't research out the 200E in the 200S frame, so hopefully the transfer case isn't a problem. Also probably need to know what year of 200S you have too. If I recall correctly, every year from 84-86 the harness grew slightly per year. I have all of the harnesses on hand though, I have like a 95% completed 3 wheeler harness collection =).

I can't recall the 200 series details the greatest, but if I'm thinking right, the 200x's higher compression is from a longer stroke crank, so a 200x cylinder would probably be a good upgrade if you can source one pretty cheap. Larger fins = more cooling which air cooled engines always need, big time if you do any mods to get more power out of them.

BTW, you're not the only one learning here, I'm still learning too lol. I've done a bit of trial and error to figure out interchanges and such, but it's more aftermarket or newer parts modded for our 3 wheelers. I just mod the parts and sell them since most people would rather have a ready to use part than buy x part from this location and mod it this way to have a usable part. Good tip with your build, document what you use where, so if you ever need to replace a part, you know what model of machine to order it for, also helps the next buyer if you ever sell the machine.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Yes when i get close to that part of the build w
I will def be contacting you you're the go to guy im pretty good mechanics wise i can do all my work myself with some research not to mention im a machinist by trade and can weld and fab pretty decent but when it comes to electrical im stumped i can do the simple stuff usually but when it comes to this i have no clue most of that probably being because i domt have much experiance with these bikes but they seem to be pretty simple. I was kind of hoping to keep my decompression lever since im going with a high compression piston but since ill have electric start and pull it may not be a problem if i need the x head and cylinder then i have no choice. Im pretty sure i seen somewhere that sombody put an e motor in an s frame it was tight and took a little modification but nothing major only thing i dont like is the hi lo selector but there may be a mod to get rid of it im not sure i havnt even began diggin into it i plan on completly rebuilding it. I would rather go that route and have a bottom end made for a starter versus buying a goki kit not to mention i already have the e as a parts bike. Im not sure what shape the harness is in but that doesnt matter anyway i would rather have sombody that knows what their doing make me up a new harness for exactly what my needs are and know its going to last versus using a 30+yr old harness. I will also take pics and notes of the entire build not only for my references but hopefully have a good thread for other people that may want to do the same thing. I have a.complete machine shop so im not worried about fitment i can make it work and make whatever i need. As long as the top end of the x bolts up to it i should be good to go.which im pretty sure it does. Who knows later on down the road i may take the bigger e frame and put one of those 250s in it or some other bigger motor for a project. I know everybody says it would be best to buy a roller but i like tinkering and y not build with what i already have im not going to be jumping big jumps or doing races it will be good enough for me to ride and i will enjoy it more. I would love to do a 250r build and maybe one of the crf450r conversions one day but i need to get more money saved for that lol.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Im planning going with white plastics do you think the x tank and rear fenders would work on the s with some frame mods of course it would be nice. I know i can get banshee rear fenders to work and they come in white but im more worried tank wise i want a white tank without having to paint and i like the look of the x tank versus the s and the shrouds are a plus. I would rather go with the x rear fenders though. Im pretty sure i can get the tank to work just wondering if u ever heard of it being done.

[ps2fixer]

Not sure on the 200x fenders or tank, they mount a fair bit different than the other 200 series machines, but I haven't had many of them to really know. Some time with a welder and cutting torch, you can probably make just about any machine's fenders fit.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Thats what i figured im sure i can make it work if i go with the x tank i would rather use the x fenders. Now my next thought is stroke whether the stroke is different and if i will have to change crankshaft to match the x cylinder head and piston

[ps2fixer]

I'm pretty sure the crank is just a stroked version, same bore size for the cylinder, so the x cylinder should fit fine, might have to use the top end from the x too. The fenders + tank probably would be a good idea to match them together since they mate well together. Just matching up the mount locations would be the challenge. The other 200 series machines should be all similar tank mounting, so it would probably easier to adapt like the 200E fenders to the 200S, but it would require the rear rack. I wonder how something like a 400ex/300ex rear fenders would match up with some mods.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Like you said im.sure its possible with just about any fenders with mods long as the frame length is close. Wouldnt you think i would need to change cranks since the stroke is different to get good performance. Ill have to look into that further see if i can find some dimensions and specs somewhere. Didnt gabriel do an e bottom end in a s frame thought i seen a thread about that maybe he will chime in with some info.

[ps2fixer]

I don't recall, but I don't think he used any 200x parts.

The normal 200 series is about 7.6:1 compression, while the 200x was something like 9:1. I suspect an aftermarket piston could probably make up the compression difference. Depends what your goals are with the machine. Shorter stroke generally is better for high rpm, quick acceleration etc, when you stroke it, you keep the same spinning mass, and torque goes up, but longer the stroke, the more of a tractor engine it turns into instead of a hyped up sports engine. There's always a balance in life. Personally, I'd probably just look into aftermarket pistons and get a 200x top end and maybe an aftermarket cam.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Yea thats the plan high comp piston, cam, better carb, and exhaust. I think i would prefer more get up versus top speed it goes plenty fast enough for me. Although in between would be nice a little more spunk with a little more top end. Idk if thats possible i know its usually 1 or the other. I pulled the e motor out the frame today im going to go.ahead and tear the bottom end down and start cleaning it up and replacing things looks like it was at the bottom of a mudhole think im going to change just about everything to be on the safe side

[ps2fixer]

Upping the compression should increase the power across the board. Targeting around 9:1 wouldn't be a bad target to run on pump gas. Not sure how far you can go before higher grades of gas is needed.

I wonder if that 230 top end from the china engine would be a simple upgrade for the 200x, 200 -> 230 is about 15% more displacement, so all else equal should be 15% more power. Up the compression and you should see pretty nice gains. As the American saying goes, there's no replacement for displacement. I suspect finding a CRF230 top end might bit a bit more fool proof since you can get the whole top end likely off ebay, but this is the stuff that isn't documented much.


I personally like torquey engines like the 350x, even if it's not the fastest to rev, or fastest 0-40mph time or whatever spec it would be. Torque is the true measurement of power, hp is work done over time.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Yea i think i read 10.25:1 i could still use 93 pump gas even if i had to put in an octane booster wouldnt be bad. If the 230 bolts right on to the 200 bottom it may be a nice upgrade wonder y anybody hasnt done it yet . I prefer torque also wouldnt more torque mean a faster take off?

[Fullsizechevy9]

I suspect neither one of you knows what your talking about............what series harness is it ?..........who`s on first ...........whats on second ...........i don`t knows on third.............buy all his harnesses
Im learning glamorous wish i could be as smart as yourself sir i guess its better than riding fullsizeC all day

[Fullsizechevy9]

Or shall i say fullsizeD

[ironchop]

Pretty sure you can say dick or cock on here

We'll found out in a minute

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

[ps2fixer]

Depends on a lot of things, the quickness to rev isn't just raw torque, spinning mass, stroke length, etc are factors too.

Here's a page I found that probably describes it better than I can.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_ratio

Basically a truck engine should be a long stroke because high torque at lower rpm, a race car typically has a shorter stroke to have peak torque at high rpm where more work gets done (HP).

[Fullsizechevy9]

Lol i guess we will

[Fullsizechevy9]

Ok i seen where the 200x crank will not fit in the 200e bottom so being i would have a 200x top end with high comp piston wouldnt it be ideal to have the 200x crank that is if the stroke is different between the 2

[ps2fixer]

I would think you'd be buying a piston for the 200e, so it should be the right height for the 200e stroke. Here's some specs.


200E:
Bore x stroke = 65x57.8mm
compression ratio = 7.8:1

83-85 200X:
Bore x stroke = 65x57.8mm
compression ratio = 9.6:1

Guess I was wrong about the stroke difference, must be a difference in the piston then. Never really looked into it before, figured they just stroked the same bore.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Thats even better 1 less thing to worry about now i just have to get on ebay and buy a 200x setup and see if it needs boring have it honed and matched with a higher compresson piston. I wish they made bottom end kits with everything you need for a rebuild might be somthing to look into and offer on ebay depends on how much bs it is finding everyrhing piece by piece. Bottom in looks like it was sitting in mud i dont know if that was the case or if its just grass and dirt built up from them.cutting grass where i got it so i plan on replacing all the bearings and seals and orings to be on the safe side.

[Fullsizechevy9]

I think i do remember seeing the only dif is the pistons 1 is the e is concave and the x is flat top and the high comps are a dome

[ps2fixer]

Yea the 200cc and smaller machines I haven't focused on as much, parted out a few but didn't notice the piston differences and such. Ebay photos seem to confirm the dish vs flat top.

A bottom end rebuild kit could be an interesting thing to try to offer. Gabriel would be more qualified to say how easy or hard it is to find the parts, he just did the same thing not long ago. I'm pretty sure the bearings are nothing super special, just need to measure them and buy a quality replacement bearing of the same size/type (sealed vs dust cap vs open). The seals might be a bit tricky, Honda OEM is a for sure fit if they are available yet. I suspect buying the parts 1 at a time would add up fast in costs, so probably not much price markup room to pay for research time and the costs related to storing the parts and the fact the money is tied up into them till they are sold.

[Fullsizechevy9]

Exactly what i was thinkinf probably y nobody offers a kit demand wise and price wise they would have to mark it up a good bit to make anything. I found a cylinder bored and honed with a wiseco 10.25:1 piston with gasket set wrist pin and circlips for 450$ is that a an ok deal or would i be better off sourcing everything myself

[Fullsizechevy9]

Still would need to find a head i think i could get some.good valves and do a 3 angle job on them myself and lap them in with better springs and seals and poasibly have it resurfaced if it needs it also buy hardfaced rockers and would need a good port job

[Gabriel]

As far as rebuilding the bottom end of an E motor, there are TWO different E motors. The difference as I have come to understand, is in the right hand side spacer plate. There's a single piece and a two piece. I only have experience with the single piece.


If you have the single piece, I have every bearing and seal number listed in one of 'Fixer's threads.


Here's a list of all the bearing, seals and Orings and their corresponding locations & dimensions.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/187438-MISC-Part-Measurements


If you know what you're looking at, post #45 shows the right hand side. As far any difference between the two different E motors, I cannot say. They may take the exact same parts. Again, I do not know.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/187039-Project-Loose-Fillings-AKA-The-Goblin/page3?highlight=goblin

[Fullsizechevy9]

I know i have an 82 model maybe i can figure out the difference with that thanks for the list that will really help and save alot of time not to mention i can get everything first instead of tearing it down and having to find everything after for some reason i thought you put the e motor in an x or s frame i dont know why i thought that i knew i remembered you doing an e bottom end

[ps2fixer]

I'm not sure, but I think the 1 vs 2 part setup is interchangeable between the two 200E years. They were made 82-83, then in 84 it became a 200ES and is shaft drive. All my experience with those engines are the 200ES model lol.

[Fullsizechevy9]

I didnt get a chance to tear into it today witb work but with gabriels list if i figure out which one i have i may just order everything that way i can doit all without leaving it tore down and possibly forgetting somthing it will go back together easier if i dont forget how i took it apart although i can figure it out i need to get a repair manual anyway

[ps2fixer]

Service manuals are free on http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/

[Fullsizechevy9]

I downloaded a service manual but isnt there a more specified repair manual

[ps2fixer]

Not sure if the other brands have more instructions. The service manuals are made by honda and generally has enough info to perform the job, just might have to read though a few sections to complete the whole job.

[Fullsizechevy9]

10 4 ill start reading through it

[Scootertrash]

Pretty sure you can say dick or cock on here

We'll found out in a minute

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

:lol::lol:

Does bailey's and coffee damage a keyboard?:wondering