Neutral Inhibitor Relay

[Gabriel]

Anyone who has messed with 200ES wiring has run into this abominable turd of a part.
We can’t get a suitable replacement. They fail and make diagnosing a nightmare.

After several lengthy discussions Ps2fixer, our resident wiring guru, has given thought to coming up with a solution.
I had a bad switch but apparently threw it away some time ago.

Do you have a bad Neutral Inhibitor Relay for the 200ES you could donate to the cause?
I’ll reimburse your shipping if you send him one to dissect.

If suitable parts can be found, I will be first in line to buy a ‘Plug In Solution Kit’.
Wouldn’t that be nice.

Anyone with thoughts please jump in.

Yes, I know you can jump the harness across the ground leads to bypass the thing but that’s some sorry rigging and wiring & halfass rigging never play well with each other.

Discuss.

[ps2fixer]

Yea, the bypass would do the same as hacking up the wiring, but with out the hacking part, and is fully reversible. Also if it's a working one, I could toy around with it and find a suitable replacement part, but I'm guessing I'll have to make it on a short wire lead and have it zip tied to the frame to secure it. A non-working one will work too, I just have to disassemble it to make sure I get things right.

It appears it was only used on the 84 200es and 84 TRX200 machines, part numbers are 38500-969-405 & 38321-969-003. I'd be interested in other machines as well if there are any.

FYI, cheapest shipping is first class package, runs around $3-4, you just need a small box to throw it in, or reuse a padded envelope (type with bubble wrap is best).

Also, since this is likely to rank fairly high on google searches, here's how to test/diagnose/troubleshoot the relay. The ATC200ES service manual didn't have this info that I could find, the 84 TRX200 service manual did.

https://i.gyazo.com/2db6c9cc5383f36b77298021f11bb3f6.png

The starter relay power runs though the inhibitor switch, so when it fails I'd assume the electric start no longer works via button. The wire diagram is a little weird to try to follow the logic on how it functions in the circuit exactly.


Here's a photo of one (found on google) for a reference.

https://images.cmsnl.com/img/products/relayinhibiter_big38321969003-01_43df.jpg

[Gabriel]

Yeah, the 84 200ES seems to be the only ATC it was used on but the 1984 200ES had over 200K units produced. From what I have read, no other model comes close to those numbers. It's certainly the most prevalent Honda 3 wheeler around, Making this a worthy endeavor.

Never mind the fact I have 2 and they are my favorite machine for all around use. LOL!!

[ps2fixer]

I've had 5 or so, just not sure where I put the trashed harnesses with that relay switch at lol. Too much junk in too little area I guess :D. Also I'm pretty sure those production numbers are USA only, world wide was probably a lot more, like in Europe the 200es was made into 85 as well. There's a thread talking more about the non-USA machines. I kind of want to meet up with someone with one of them machines to validate the wiring etc is an exact match for the US model.

Anyway, based on the troubleshooting info I posted above, and the 200es harness I have on hand, I can make a bypass connector and send it to you Gabriel for testing. I'd still like to get my hands on one of the relays still though, if I do find a replacement option, would be nice to have the added benefit of fitting in the stock location. I'm thinking something like a normally closed automotive relay, or search motorcycle models that used something similar. Probably would just find out of production parts on the motorcycles though, or relays that are expensive.

[Gabriel]

So many electrical components mankind makes, there HAS to be a generic solution.
Understanding its function(s) may help find a suitable replacement.

My biggest stumbling block is forgetting what I think I know. Typical car wiring has permanent ground connections and interrupted hot connections. Everything on this ATC is opposite. Grounds are switch interrupted. Weird!!!!


Step in and correct my wrong assumptions

The switch itself has 4 pins. In no particular order:

1-[Yellow/Red] Picks up hot from the DC consent fuse

2-[grey] gets a ground connection from the reverse switch which also gives a ground to the CDI and the reverse indicator light

3-[green/red] gives ground to the solenoid

4-[green/red] receives ground through the starter button from the neutral switch.


SO!
It will not start in gear because the solenoid gets it's ground connection from the neutral switch through the neutral relay.
That's simple.

BUT, what is happening to the CDI as the reverse switch gives or interrupts ground? This grey wire is a bit confusing.


Essentially it boils down to a relay that has one positive and three negatives. Finding one that makes the proper functions/connections, well, that's the rub.
If one can be located for a reasonable price, making an adapter pigtail should make it plug and play. I will buy the first one. LOL!!


This whole thing seems to rest a fraction of an inch outside my grasp. I feel like the solution would be pretty easy if I could just stop getting a headache when I stare at the wiring diagram.... HA!!!!! Not sure why this has hit my interest button but I will not rest until I understand the solution.

[ps2fixer]

Haha yea, based on the toubleshooting info, it's just a basic relay. 2 wire to power the relay, two wires that are connected/disconnected based on the relay state. Super common in the automotive world, same function as a starter relay. However there's one catcher, the common style of relay is "normally open" meaning the switched on/off wiring is no connection with no power applied, this relay is the opposite, or a "normally closed" relay, and it looses connection when power is applied. At least that's my understanding of it looking at the wire diagram. I know jumping the two green wires is the bypass, and I have a harness to get the pinout right, but yea I'd like one on hand to toy with and make sure my understanding of it is accurate with a multi meter + battery (or pull the cap off and look at the relay, should be setup to push a contact instead of pull).

Sounds like in the automotive world they are common, but are dual use (normally closed + normally open connections) or a 5 pin relay (SPDT Relay). Looks like they are cheap on ebay. Comes with relay + a short pig tail. Assuming the wiring isn't garbage I could just put the right wires to the right connector to plug into the 200es/trx200 machines and have a plug and play replacement. Reason I target automotive ones is because they are already designed for being outside and around extreme conditions (heat, water, oil etc). The ones I found are 30-40 amp, should be way overkill for the starter relay lol. They don't say country of origin, but the listing provides good detailed info, the part gives a good diagram of how it functions (like most OEM auto relays), and it even has tech specs like the switch contact material is a Silver Alloy (one of the best of my understanding). It even has life span specs. 10 million switchings at 10.8k switchings per hour for the mechanical part, and 100k switchings for the electrical side at 900 switchings per hour. In other words, 100,000 times turnign the ignition switch on and off before it should be worn out, I think the switch would be dead before the relay lol. As you can see, I love it when I'm looking up parts and there's good details to go with it. This might be a solution to some automotive relay sourcing problems I've seen in the past too, not sure if 40amp switched relay is big enough though for the first thing that popped in my head, but not related to this anyway.

I'll order the relays in bulk, worst case, it's always handy to have a nice universal water proof relay sitting around that can handle 30+ amps.

[Gabriel]

Yep, I just figured that one out too. Playing with a generic relay I had laying around. Need one that's backwards. Thanks Honda!!!

Now....where to source a 4 pin plug that will fit the Honda harness??? That might be troublesome. That's your game Cory.
If found, 4 wires could connect it to a plug for the generic relay. That would literally make for a plug and play solution.




As many times as I have seen this problem addressed here and other places, I would think there would be a good amount of interest.

[ps2fixer]

Yea that 4 pin connector I already have on hand lol. It's common on Jap machines, mainly for voltage regulator/rectifiers. I just ordered another 20 sets (male + female) since I'm actually finding a use for them finally lol (DC power kit & this bypass/adapter).

Anyway, had a few minutes to dedicate to making the bypass. Nothing super special, just DIY it's not so easy with out the right tools etc.

I'll probably wait to ship your wire project until after I get the relays on hand and use another connector to adapt it to the 200es plug. Then you can test both products for me so there's two options to fix the issue instead of just one. Aka, bypass it and be done with it, or stick with stock operation with an aftermarket solution.

[Gabriel]

Boy, this site is really slow lately. I would have thought as many people who've had this issue, there'd be some responses. Maybe they're waiting for Fixer to get the beta testing results back first. LOL!!!

Seriously, I will post a full review with pictures when I am finished.


Also, there are generic relays on the market with a screw hole on top. That might be nice. One self tapping sheet metal screw into the battery box OR a longer bolt on one side of the regulator would make a perfect mounting spot.

[ps2fixer]

Yea the relays I ordered has a metal tab with a bolt hole for mounting. Tab is removable too. Kind of hoping it's similar size to the OEM relay, or something that uses the same style of mounting as the OEM part (like a small CDI box). Could always include a couple zip ties with the product as another option too.

Also yea, the site hasn't had much traffic lately from what I've seen. I've replied to nearly every new thread in the last month, and it's like 20 threads total lol. That's why I've been bouncing around a new website to build myself, not to compete with the forums, but a place to log the data here in a easier way to look up. I own the domain atvinterchange.com running wordpress, but blog style posts isn't very efficient for finding stuff, about the same setup as a forum, just only one poster lol. This is kind of part of my html5 interactive harness diagram post, I might try to make it a little more universal for other parts, or even just images with measurements on it (for zoom in, moving around, and comparing any two parts etc). Would be awesome getting community generated data (measurements), but it's fairly uncommon for someone to take the extra time to make the measurements and such.

Anyway, back on topic, I'm sure the bypass plug will work. The main thing I want to test is the relay one if I can't get a inhibitor relay from somewhere fairly cheap. Seems too many fail so ebay is pretty dried up for them even when searching for the 84 trx200 model. I think the cheapest one I've seen sold for $25 and it kind of looked like the aftermarket one I found that's over 70 pounds (Uk). I might just have to pull the one off my good 200es to toy around with and probably forget to reinstall it and wonder why the electric doesn't work the next time I go to start it lol.

[danbur55]

I scrapped an 87 Suzuki lt300 and I think it had something real close to what y’all are talking about you might check into that and I will dig through my stuff to see if I kept it

[ps2fixer]

Cool stuff, I'll have to see if I can dig up a service manual for that machine. Thanks for the tip.


Edit:

Seems like there's something similar for sure on that machine, here's a thread about electric start and a mention of some relays, neutral/reverse switches etc.

https://www.suzukiatvforums.com/forums/repair-maintenance/2550-lt-300-electrical-help-needed-please-2.html

No luck on free downloadable manuals though.

[danbur55]

Couple of pics of what I think might be the same or similar 255791255792. Haven’t tested it as stated above but quad would spin the motor as normal

[ps2fixer]

Interesting, looks about like the same thing, just plastic housing instead of the smaller metal one. I wonder if the pinout matches the Honda one. Of course the connector is the opposite one.

If you don't have a use for it, or if it's a junk part, I'd be interested in playing around with it.

Also for more complete details and possible google search results. The Suzuki part number for the 1987 LT300E is 38740-24X50 and it's also in production yet at around $33.51 from partzilla. The part diagram labels it as a Neutral Start Relay. Looks like that relay was used on a ton of machines. I'll have to poke around and see if I can find a wire diagram/service manual for one of them some time.

[danbur55]

ps2fixer sent you a pm

[ps2fixer]

Received the relay order today. They worked exactly as I expected. Per the 84 TRX200 service manual test process it's a perfect match with my little adapter wiring between it and the main harness. I was going to use the wire provided on them, but found their terminals are not crimped as well as I thought. I actually pulled one of the wires out while removing terminals which shouldn't be possible with a proper crimp. Side benefit of this is that I can color match the wires to the OEM harness.

Anyway, I'll be sending Gabriel the bypass plug and the automotive style relay to test out. I'm 99% sure it's all good to go though.

I added photos soon of the fancy relay. Not sure what the best route will be for mounting them (they are a bit heavy to just leave hanging). Maybe a zip tie to where the tab that the original rubber mount went onto.

Of course the stupid phone doesn't want to take clear photos for me, but not super horrible. Need to get a proper quality camera some day lol.

[Gabriel]

Fricken Awesome!

One of the worst headaches on the most ubiquitous ATC.....SOLVED. I will post here with a full report.

Thank you Fixer for taking this on. Hope you can pocket a dollar or two for your troubles.





My 2¢ worth, If I rode a perfectly working 200ES, I would want this part. If the relay ain't bad yet, it could go at any time. Why NOT fix it before it pisses you off?
I will have these on BOTH of my 200ES trikes.

[ps2fixer]

Just a suggestion, even though electric start isn't critical to have working, but one could throw the bypass plug in the tool box or somewhere suitable and if there's ever an issue on the trail, it could be the get home ticket. Of course pull start would work yet, but if someone had back issues etc, that might not be an option.

Anyway, if plans go right, your order should be shipped out Thursday (post office is closed Wednesday).

[ps2fixer]

Couple of pics of what I think might be the same or similar 255791255792. Haven’t tested it as stated above but quad would spin the motor as normal

Got this relay in the mail and found the relay infact was junk. It's a normally open relay and the contact inside had rust build up between the contacts. I also got a Yamaha YTM200E harness with a relay on it, and it's exactly the same, but has some generic markings on top of it. Both are Japanese made by Omron. Also the Yamaha one had the exact same problem as the Suzuki one. Probably why it was being parted out on ebay.

That means the Yamaha part number and Suzuki part number are interchangeable below, and both in production at the time of this post.

Suzuki - https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/38740-24X50?ref=43fad71c44881802461df57b741dfc65c32cb8d8
Yamaha - https://www.partzilla.com/product/yamaha/25G-81950-01-00?ref=c72d32e52a65d79e02515addaefa28658eda6a03





Back on topic, I sent out the box today to Gabriel. I'll wait for that product review lol.

[Gabriel]

Sorry for the delay boys, works been hell this week.

SO, a perfectly functioning 84 200 ES.....

I plugged in the relay adapter and aftermarket relay....chug, chug...VROOM!!! I cut it off and pull started it, worked perfect. All good there.
Plugged in the jumper and the same thing. Flawless function with everything.

Conclusion, either one will solve this issue. Quality part and a top notch person to deal with. Thanks to Ps2fixer to letting me be the beta tester.

Now....opinions. My opinions are just that. MY opinions. They may not mean squat to you.

The aftermarket relay: Perfect! Easy plug and play with 'just' enough length to let you button it up nice and tidy.

The jumper plug. Easy, cheap, works.....I don't care for it. Has NOTHING to do with Fixer, his work or anything of the sort. I'm not a fan of bypassing existing systems. Either tear out the whole system or put it back the way it goes. That's my opinion nothing more. Spend the extra few bucks and get things working they way they were intended to function. Fixer is the kinda guy that deserves your $$$ support any way. He might be right though, a cheap and easy thing to toss into a tool box "Just In Case"
The relay switch though... I LOVE IT. Perfect fix. Thank you Fixer. I appreciate it.

Again, you may think different. I have two '84 200ES machines and they will both wear the aftermarket relay. Even the one with a functioning factory part will be getting replaced with Fixer's upgrade.


Carry on.




https://i.imgur.com/0mjj2PS.jpg?2

[ps2fixer]

Cool stuff, thanks for the honest review.

Ironically, I'm in the opposite boat, if I had one of these on say my 350x, I'd want the bypass plug since a wire is pretty hard to fail, while a relay can. Not super happy with the relay setup, but it's better than nothing for sure and does give the stock operation.

With the bypass plug plugged in, can you crank the engine in gear or reverse? Looking over the diagram, it looks like electric start would still only work while in neutral (starter button grounds though the neutral switch). It's been a while since I looked over the wire diagram, so might be thinking wrong, but if the bypass plug is used and the operation matches OEM, it seems like it has no real purpose except maybe a secondary safety (if someone bypasses the neutral switch). Anyway, I just want to be sure what the exact "side effects" are for running the bypass plug so when I make the 3ww shop listing I can be completely upfront with what the effects are.

[Gabriel]

I don't see ANY side effects from running the bypass. I'll have to go try it in reverse and see if it'll start. That's one thing I didn't try.

[ps2fixer]

Yea try electric start for in any forward gear, and reverse. Based on my quick scan over the wire diagram, electric start will only work in neutral because the starter button gets it's ground though the neutral safety switch. If that's so, I don't get why it even has the relay to start with. Probably wouldn't hurt to perform the same test while pull starting it. Maybe it will start pull start only in gear with the bypass while the relay prevents it.

[Gabriel]

Ok, alright. I am more than man enough to admit when I'm wrong about something. Never claimed to be a real intelligent fellar.......

I gotta stare at the wiring diagram to figure out exactly whats going on BUT suffice to say, the jumper plug works AND it still gives you all the safety benefits of the original part. tried it again this morning. The starter will NOT function unless the transmission is in neutral. It's cold out here and I forgot to try the pull rope in gear. I'm not dragging the battery charger out AGAIN today. LOL.
The starter WILL function in reverse BUT it will not fire. I held the starter down in reverse then bumped it out of reverse and she fired right off.

SO, while the starter will actually turn in reverse, the safety feature is still in place as the coil is not firing.

Considering that and the fact that it's a LOT harder for a tiny piece of wire to fail as opposed to a relay, this may actually be the better choice overall. The ability to start in gear was my major concern but obviously I don't understand the wiring layout as well as I thought I did. Add to that it's a helluva lot cheaper and the jumper plug will fit into the factory rubber boot so no zip ties or extra screws to hold the new relay.
Looks like I may have shot my mouth off too soon as I may be hopping the fence on this one. Shame on me. LOL!!!!

[ps2fixer]

Haha, it's all good in either case. I fully understand about sticking with the OEM design. The wire diagram is kind of crappy at displaying exactly what the relay does, some things have to be assumed and the diag info known. Interesting that the electric start works while in reverse. I don't see exactly how the starter relay get's ground in the circuit while in reverse, the only thing I can make sense of is maybe it's going though the reverse light. There's no diode on it, so maybe that's part of why the newer machines have a diode in that general location. Might have to probe around on my 200es some day (probably spring if I remember to) and try to follow where the ground point actually is. Maybe the neutral/reverse sub harness has a design flaw and the full safety feature could be kept with the neutral/reverse sub harness being replaced (one with a diode), and the bypass plug to have the most reliable and stock function possible. Maybe I'm just overlooking something though. When you put the lever into reverse, the neutral light goes off right?

That reminds me, I forgot it has a sub transmission, so you can be in neutral and reverse at the same time. I think that's the case where the inhibitor switch is designed for. Of course it's worth mentioning that China CDI's don't have the safety circuit, so they would fire up while in reverse, unless the relay is in place. I think I kind of answered my question above about the ground, it's still though the neutral switch lol.

[Gabriel]

A self tapping sheet metal screw through the original mounting tab holds Fixer's relay perfect!!


https://i.imgur.com/dbqHtgx.jpg

[wellys88]

Great work. 256571

I will take a couple��

[ps2fixer]

I sent ya a PM. I have the relays on hand if you need those made, I just haven't gotten around to making them and listing them. The bypass plug is in the 3ww shop though.

[1045Keeper1224]

Yep, I just figured that one out too. Playing with a generic relay I had laying around. Need one that's backwards. Thanks Honda!!!

Now....where to source a 4 pin plug that will fit the Honda harness??? That might be troublesome. That's your game Cory.
If found, 4 wires could connect it to a plug for the generic relay. That would literally make for a plug and play solution.




As many times as I have seen this problem addressed here and other places, I would think there would be a good amount of interest.


Would you have a source for the connector by-pass shown in the picture? or could i buy one from you??

[1045Keeper1224]

Yea that 4 pin connector I already have on hand lol. It's common on Jap machines, mainly for voltage regulator/rectifiers. I just ordered another 20 sets (male + female) since I'm actually finding a use for them finally lol (DC power kit & this bypass/adapter).

Anyway, had a few minutes to dedicate to making the bypass. Nothing super special, just DIY it's not so easy with out the right tools etc.

I'll probably wait to ship your wire project until after I get the relays on hand and use another connector to adapt it to the 200es plug. Then you can test both products for me so there's two options to fix the issue instead of just one. Aka, bypass it and be done with it, or stick with stock operation with an aftermarket solution.


Could you give me the link for the connectors? Or could I buy one from you??

[ps2fixer]

Yea I can sell you one. I'll shoot you a PM with the payment info.

[sfinlay]

I have found your post relating to the inhibitor relay. can you tell me which wire fit to each of the terminals, a , b , c and d. my wiring on my trike is good but i dont know which wire goes on each of the spades at the relay, following on from your photo of the relay connections.
thanks

[ps2fixer]

I don't have the harness on hand, but looking at my pics I can figure it out pretty well. Ironically I just ran across this connector on a 86 Toyota Pickup and the Toyota diagrams actually give pinout data. Good base for a screen shot + pinout numbers. The image is based on looking at the end of the connector (the side that plugs into the opposite connector). This is the one that goes on the harness.

https://i.gyazo.com/ce1ad8f4e1ff08d58441dffebf84fd93.png

1 - Yellow/Red
2 - Green/Red
3 - Gray? (can't see in the pic the greatest)
4 - Green/Red

FYI, the two Green/Red wires don't really matter which one goes where in those two possible spots, they are shorted together when the relay activates, just a simple switch basically.

Hopefully that helps you out, good luck with your harness work.

[chukob]

I did a search for bad relay inhibitor in big reds and found this thread. Thanks to folks figuring out a generic alternative to the inhibitor relay, they seem impossible to find anymore. My trike does nothing when I hit the start button- happened suddenly. Also the neutral light stopped coming on. I looked over fuses, wiggled wires, and nothing. I was ordering some other parts from Amazon and a starter solenoid came up as things people commonly buy for this trike, it was cheap so I bought it and threw it in, but it didn't help. Turned my attention to this post and tried to add a jumper between the two greens going into the relay, but that didn't help. I went from either of these greens to the frame and it starts to turn over without me hitting the start button. Does this mean the neutral switch is bad? Or does this diagnose something else? Best fix?

Thanks

[chukob]

I grounded the neutral switch and now it starts.

[ps2fixer]

I grounded the neutral switch and now it starts.

That would mean your neutral switch is bad, nice work with the diag though.

FYI, the cheap starter solenoids are made in china and low grade, I'd get rid of that asap unless you don't mind the solenoid randomly sticking on and you can't stop the starter. It's one part I'd never cheap out on personally. You can buy much newer solenoids from newer Honda atv's that generally can plug and play with extra long wire for $20-30 and is OEM quality and will work for 20-30+ years. Prices might be off, I didn't adjust for covid inflation lol.

If you don't mind about the neutral safety switch, add a ring terminal to the wire and bolt it down likely on a side cover bolt and the neutral light will be stuck on all the time, but you'll always be able to crank the engine. The down side is, it can be cranked in gear. If you want to fix it, I'm pretty sure your only option is used OEM for the switch. Might be possible to refurb your existing switch but not sure how well that works out.