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fabiodriven
05-15-2018, 10:37 PM
The real title of this thread is "Rebuilding a shock with a hammer and pliers", or possibly "How not to rebuild a shock". I have titled it "Rebuilding a shock" for ease of reference if someone wants to look for information on rebuilding shocks in the future. I decided to rebuild the Showa shock from my 1984 ATC480R myself, and what I ended up figuring out is it can be tricky to find diagrams or exploded views of these shocks to aid in servicing and rebuilding. I was pretty much on my own for this, but I ended up getting a lot of advice from Doug Ironchop. I started out by referencing his thread where he is rebuilding an 86 ATC250R shock, which is very similar, but not the same as my 84 shock. To the best of my knowledge, the 83 and 84 shock are different, and the 85-86 shock is a bit different as well, so I think the 83 and 84 shocks are both one year only shocks. The rebuild kit from Schmidty covers 83-86 ATC250R shocks, all of them, but the shocks are slightly different inside.

I began by referencing Doug's thread as I said, then we started texting, then a full blown phone call was necessary. We both agree there is very little information out there to guide you through this process. This is a very loose guide to show how I did this, not how it should be done. I was a brute and you will see claw marks and the hammer laying around a lot. I cleaned up all the marrs I made with the Channel-locks using a file when I was putting the shock back together. I was grumpy yesterday and didn't document all that much of the disassembly, everything including the shock was trying my patience. As I sit here now, the shock is reassembled and possibly ready for a nitrogen charge (more on that later). I feel good having conquered this hurdle with this being my first time rebuilding a shock (assuming this thing works when I'm done) and I would be far more confident on my next one, but I still wouldn't work on one for someone else yet. This was difficult, more so than I thought it was going to be, so if you're going to attempt it, bring a ton of patience and as much knowledge as you can find. You will also need a broad assortment of picks. I have picks, a very good selection, and I felt like I didn't have enough. This was challenging.

What I'm attempting to share are pointers, things I've learned, and mistakes I made, because I went into this essentially blind. If you can learn from my mistakes, you might be able to rebuild your shock without piercing your finger. This will make a lot more sense if you have a shock apart in front of you.

Taking most of the shock apart seemed elementary to me. Remove the shock spring, I'm not going to tell you how to do that. That's the easiest part of this so if you can't figure that out don't try the rest. Release the nitrogen, drain the oil. On the body of the shock you will see a cap which is the obvious next part that needs to come off. It has small holes in it likely for a spanner, or if you're me, you grab it with Channel-locks. Don't be like me, get a spanner. I turned the cap in the direction you would expect to thread it out, but it's not threaded. It backed out just the same as if it were threaded, but it's not. It's just an interference fit. Removal of this cap will expose the seal head, but you will not be able to remove the retaining circlip just yet. You must first push the seal head gently down into the shock body away from the retainer clip in order to expose the clip so you can pry it out. Don't let it boing across the shop.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/ca216c11d604a2211c3e5542490af80e.jpg

Then you'll remove the shaft side by pulling it out of the body, taking the whole seal head out with it. Now your seal head will be exposed for you to see and you will see the nut which holds it in place at the end of the shaft. If the nut has an obvious factory stake staking it to the shaft, you'll know it's factory and has never been rebuilt. If the shaft has been previously ground and the staking looks more like it was done by a guy with a punch or has no staking at all, then you know your shock has been apart before. If the nut is staked, simply grind the staking off until you have a clear path for the nut to be backed off. Once the nut is off, you can start removing the stacks of washers and the valve block looking thing that's on there.

REMEMBER- These shocks have stacks of washers which are a bunch of different sizes and they go in a VERY SPECIFIC ORDER. Doug had a zip tie ready to line them up just as they came off. I'm wicked smaht so I laid everything out on a rag as I removed it. Well what you don't want to be is wicked smaht like me, because I didn't take into account that even though I had everything lined up the way I had removed it, I did not reference which direction each stack of washers was facing when I removed them. I didn't take note of which way the valve looking thing went either. I THINK I got it all right putting it back together, but LEARN from my mistakes, and have a zip tie handy to keep everything in order as it comes off.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/922b5b650aab6f1ac711d482c4b39f64.jpg

After you get the nut, washers, and valve thing off, you're left with a UFO on the shaft, at least on the 84. This UFO is threaded on with the finest threads I have ever seen. I was turning it around and around trying to back it off and it was working, but I couldn't tell at first because it moves so slowly due to the threads being so fine. I then put a puller on it and it didn't budge, so I went back to spinning it and eventually I was able to see that yes, it was indeed backing off. It just takes forever. Yes, these are threads!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/7c4954b7495567773ceb8283d61f2716.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/4acb71f7dac04870409fa9ef3b1dc3fd.jpg

After the UFO comes off, you can get the seal head off the shaft. This is where things get cruddy. This farking snap ring is in the seal head so friggin tight, it's unnecessary and ridiculous. There is no way to get behind it on the 84 seal head. Doug's 86 seal head has a relief cut in it so you can get a pick in behind the circlip. I had every pick in my shop on deck, I tried snaking feeler gauges in there, a razor, sewing pins... Nothing could pull this clip away from the walls of the seal head. There is a hole in the head which one would assume goes behind the pin in order to aid in removal, but your assumption would be wrong. The hole is there to aid in removal of the washer that the circlip retains, which is pointless because that washer falls right out as soon as the circlip is removed. This is where things got difficult for me and I was at a loss. It was time for power tools (the Schmidty kit comes with a new circlip).

So I broke out the dremel and directly across from where the break in the circlip is I cut the stupid circlip in half. Even having cut the circlip in half, it still wouldn't come out! I continued with the dremel until I went right through the seal head itself (oops), which I was pretty bent about at first. Then I realized I could use this hole to push the clip out, which worked and was necessary. Both pieces of the clip sprung out under tension even though it had been cut in half. I had to remove one piece then slide the other piece over to the hole I made to push that one out. I looked at how the shock itself works to see what effect this new hole might have on how the shock works, and as far as I can tell it might have a fraction of an effect on bottoming, as in it might bottom slightly easier, but by an unmeasurable amount. Just a tiny, tiny bit.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/5a0067dd3038eac24881aec009fd8aac.jpg

Here's the hole I made.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/ed88d646120994a75e5929a16d3bd6be.jpg

This is the existing hole.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/2b416b26fc13057f8027aeca7bd48ad2.jpg

This is the carnage from wrastling that stupid circlip.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/d4a09fbcc8482b58e3cf7ecd2aefbcca.jpg

Once that awful clip is out of the way, the interior seal falls right out. I didn't bother explaining replacement of the seal on the outside of the seal head because that's quite obvious.

While you're reassembling, you will be wrastling some of the circlips. Some go in easy with just your fingers, others are more of a battle. When dealing with circlips, picks, and tiny, sharp screwdrivers, always be aware of which direction you are pointing the tool and how much pressure you have on it. Otherwise you'll end up sticking the screwdriver straight through your finger, like in one side and out the other. Don't do that.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/4c9ac558717fc21359256b7fe7770f65.jpg

When you're reassembling the shock, it should all be obvious how it goes together after you just took it apart. Another couple tips from experience- Fill the shock itself with shock oil laying it on it's side with the hose removed as well as the hole on the shock body oriented to release any air that might be trying to escape the shock as you fill it. Also, make sure you install the big spring retainer spanner hardware BEFORE you assemble the shock so you don't have to pull your shock apart a second time like I did because I forgot to put those on. The second time I put the shock together, I didn't remove the hose from the shock body and fill the shock body itself back up with oil, I decided to try and just fill it using the reservoir and leaving it attached to the shock. If you fill the shock before you attach the hose and reservoir, it will prime almost immediately. If you try to fill the shock with the reservoir attached, it will work, however it will take far longer to prime. A lot longer, but it works.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/9afff51cdd3a4bff40c00caf61abcc9b.jpg

I rigged the reservoir to the spring to use as a little pedestal to aid me in filling and bleeding the shock. You are trying to remove air, so hold the shock upright below the reservoir. If you don't understand this part, you shouldn't be trying this. Of course the first time I rigged the the reservoir to the spring it worked perfect, and I could move the reservoir around the bench or to the edge of the bench so I could hold the shock below it for priming. Unfortunately on my second attempt, since I had to take mine apart twice, I couldn't get the stupid spring/reservoir deal to stay upright anymore. Learn from my mistakes, strap your reservoir once and if it works don't frig with it! The second time I had to involve vise grips.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/ed51f9a127a8e091b1a20c2eddd862b1.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/917ef87721d0bae7946d4ded24b63523.jpg

I only have two questions before I get this shock charged tomorrow, and hopefully someone here might be able to help. I have to do some research and see if I can figure this first one out. I installed the bladder back into the reservoir and if you've ever seen these bladders, you know they maintain their "expanded" shape, or rather the shape of the reservoir itself. What I don't know is, do I install the bladder scrunched down with as little air inside of it as possible, or do I just install it as it looks? Doug suggested it should probably be scrunched down in order to be more nitrogen then anything else once filled, which makes sense in my mind, but I just don't know.

Also, this adjustment is frozen. It doesn't want to move in either direction and I don't know what to do about it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180516/ea7f63f5ee815e4f202c8fb8ecd8ac78.jpg

So it's all together right now, I just might have to take it apart to scrunch the bladder if it turns out I'm supposed to do that. As it feels in my hands, it has plenty of resistance on compression, it feels right, but the rebound goes back much easier. I don't know if I did something wrong, I don't think so. I've never done this so that could be completely normal. We'll have to see once it's completed and charged.

Anyhoo thanks for looking and thank you to Doug for all the guidance. I hope this can help people in the future.

fabiodriven
05-15-2018, 10:40 PM
If you are going to rip into your shock, Doug's thread has some really good pictures which I'm going to link here. These pictures and Doug's know-how will help you bumble through this just as I have.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/182884-My-250R-Adventure/page10

ironchop
05-15-2018, 11:16 PM
If you are going to rip into your shock, Doug's thread has some really good pictures which I'm going to link here. These pictures and Doug's know-how will help you bumble through this just as I have.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/182884-My-250R-Adventure/page10Hey I was bumbling thru it too.

I was hoping someone would see us doing it wrong that knows better and correct us

LMFAO

I started with a beatup old shock that I wouldn't miss or be upset if I trashed it in the process. Like you, after this one I'm going to buy another rebuild kit and a bladder and hose and do another on a much nicer shock since I'm sure I'll do a better job the second time around

And probably get the shaft rechromed like Glamy suggested

Good thread



Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

wonderboy
05-16-2018, 09:19 AM
If you want some more guidance, the Race Tech Suspension Bible (http://www.racetech.com/HTML_FILES/SUSPENSION%20BIBLE.html) has full tear-down instructions for shocks. No, they aren't the exact same, but generally VERY similar. This book has a lot of information on suspension, not just on the details of rebuilding things. I highly recommend it.

With regard to the bladder, the way I do it (as does the Race Tech book) is to leave it fully expanded (smooth, not compressed).

I didn't read your procedure fully, but the way I do it is to put that in last, after everything is filled. So what happens is that fluid will just start to overflow from the reservoir as you push the bladder in. It continues to overflow as you push right up until the point at which the sealing portion of the bladder enters the reservoir. From this point forward, the bladder will get compressed a bit as you seat it fully since no more fluid can escape AND assuming you have the shock shaft fully extended (which you should do).

This is how I do it. I've done a 1/2 dozen shocks now (200x, 350x, and 3rd gen 250r) this way with (so far) good results.

Another tip, these are super cheap AND super helpful for all those clips and seals, etc.: https://www.harborfreight.com/4-piece-pick-and-hook-set-66836.html

ironchop
05-16-2018, 10:03 AM
.....
With regard to the bladder, the way I do it (as does the Race Tech book) is to leave it fully expanded (smooth, not compressed).

I didn't read your procedure fully, but the way I do it is to put that in last, after everything is filled. So what happens is that fluid will just start to overflow from the reservoir as you push the bladder in. It continues to overflow as you push right up until the point at which the sealing portion of the bladder enters the reservoir. From this point forward, the bladder will get compressed a bit as you seat it fully since no more fluid can escape AND assuming you have the shock shaft fully extended (which you should do). ....

Edit: Nevermind I got to thinking about it and you're explanation makes sense. Leave bladder in it's current shape when installing.

THANK YOU for the valuable input.


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jb2wheels
05-16-2018, 10:09 AM
Good write up!

Excellent note about the washer stack.

I tried rebuilding a Tecate shock once.
I think I screwed up the washer stack.

Then I had to find a place to charge it.

It never worked right and I know it's my fault.

I put a $25 Banshee shock on it and never looked back.

A learning experience for me - I might try it again someday.

Green4life
05-16-2018, 10:36 AM
Hey jb2wheels I thought about putting a banshee shock on my tecate as well. I have an 85 what year did you use and was it front or back banshee shock

wonderboy
05-16-2018, 11:00 AM
Yes, I leave the Schrader core out while I push the bladder in. It makes it hard to press in otherwise (air pressure keeps pushing it back out). This does result in a little bit of compression of the bladder as you finish installing it. I think this is fine. I don't try to squeeze the bladder flat before starting the insertion, I think being smooth helps make sure there is no trapped air between the bladder and the reservoir as it is inserted.

Thinking about the air inside the bladder, yes, there will be a bit of normal air in there once everything is assembled and you install the core just before charging with nitrogen... but that is air at normal atmospheric pressure. Compare that to once it is pressurized with anywhere between 200 - 300 PSI (whatever the specs call for) of Nitrogen. The quantity (mass) of Nitrogen will be MUCH larger than the quantity of air (from the residual air in there before charging).

Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about that tiny bit of air.

HairyJR
05-16-2018, 11:07 AM
Very good write up Fabio, but it has to be said "A Mechanic's best bandage duct tape or electrical tape" always stops the bleeding.

"HJ" 252255 :beer

ironchop
05-16-2018, 11:08 AM
Yes, I leave the Schrader core out while I push the bladder in. It makes it hard to press in otherwise (air pressure keeps pushing it back out). This does result in a little bit of compression of the bladder as you finish installing it. I think this is fine. I don't try to squeeze the bladder flat before starting the insertion, I think being smooth helps make sure there is no trapped air between the bladder and the reservoir as it is inserted.

Thinking about the air inside the bladder, yes, there will be a bit of normal air in there once everything is assembled and you install the core just before charging with nitrogen... but that is air at normal atmospheric pressure. Compare that to once it is pressurized with anywhere between 200 - 300 PSI (whatever the specs call for) of Nitrogen. The quantity (mass) of Nitrogen will be MUCH larger than the quantity of air (from the residual air in there before charging).

Bottom line, I wouldn't worry about that tiny bit of air.Can't thank you enough for the insight!

Sent from my Z958 using Tapatalk

fabiodriven
05-16-2018, 11:08 AM
Hey jb2wheels I thought about putting a banshee shock on my tecate as well. I have an 85 what year did you use and was it front or back banshee shock

They use the rear shock. Personally I used a 300EX shock in my Tecate. It's almost a bolt in with next to no modifications and 300EX shocks are cheap. It was also an upgrade from the Kayaba shock which comes in the Tecate.

Green4life
05-16-2018, 11:46 AM
They use the rear shock. Personally I used a 300EX shock in my Tecate. It's almost a bolt in with next to no modifications and 300EX shocks are cheap. It was also an upgrade from the Kayaba shock which comes in the Tecate.
Thanks for the info and sorry to highjack your thread

fabiodriven
05-16-2018, 05:12 PM
Thanks for the info and sorry to highjack your thread

Oh no worries, it's a thread about shocks!

I went to the Honda dealer today to get the shock charged but unfortunately they won't be able to do it until Saturday, so I brought the shock home with me and I'll go back up there Saturday.

When I got home, I installed the shock just so I could put the rear of the bike on the ground and lift the front to rebuild the forks. The shock as it is now with no nitrogen in it feels blown. I've never done this before so I don't know, is that normal? Should it feel like it's blown even though it's full of oil but with no nitrogen charge? I'm very curious because I want to find out if I've done this right or not, also because I don't want to waste the money on a charge if I'm going to have to take it all apart again.

Ghostv2
05-16-2018, 05:22 PM
Have any of you guys had to replace the hose from the reservoir to the shock? I have an 84 shock that i tore the hose from bottoming out and it being incorrectly routed.

Am i going to have to tear it apart anyways to refill with oil and bleed before refilling with nitrogen?

3 Wheel Drive
05-16-2018, 05:22 PM
Milners taking notes like a mofo right about now...:D:lol::D:lol::naughty::Bounce:crazy::):bann ed:

Ghostv2
05-16-2018, 05:26 PM
Oh no worries, it's a thread about shocks!

I went to the Honda dealer today to get the shock charged but unfortunately they won't be able to do it until Saturday, so I brought the shock home with me and I'll go back up there Saturday.

When I got home, I installed the shock just so I could put the rear of the bike on the ground and lift the front to rebuild the forks. The shock as it is now with no nitrogen in it feels blown. I've never done this before so I don't know, is that normal? Should it feel like it's blown even though it's full of oil but with no nitrogen charge? I'm very curious because I want to find out if I've done this right or not, also because I don't want to waste the money on a charge if I'm going to have to take it all apart again.

When the hose tore on mine, it was instantly back to being a pogo stick. Didn’t feel like you were compressing oil. But that’s in the bike still not with my bare hands. And no hose attached. But take it as you will. Kinda similar situation.

fabiodriven
05-16-2018, 05:41 PM
Ghost all you'll have to do is fill and bleed the shock, put the new hose and reservoir on, bleed that, fill with nitrogen, and you'll be good. I was going to do that but decided to rebuild mine instead.

jb2wheels
05-16-2018, 07:59 PM
Start Hijack

Hey jb2wheels I thought about putting a banshee shock on my tecate as well. I have an 85 what year did you use and was it front or back banshee shock

Any year Banshee rear shock
Get the bolts and mounting point seals, etc.
Mount upside down on T3
Drill T3 upper mount bigger.
Fits stock swing arms but will not fit some aftermarket like West Coast
Slightly short than stock with slightly heavier spring

If you're patient you can get one for $40 or so.
I got really lucky and grabbed 2 for $25ea on a buy it now auction about 30 minutes after it posted.

I also added an adjustable link because with the combination of 22" tires, Maier low-pro fenders, and me the tires rub on the fenders often.

It's no Fox Twin-Clicker but it's better than my blown out stocker.

End Hijack

fabiodriven
05-16-2018, 10:43 PM
I found this video which does answer some of my questions and gives me some hope that my shock will perform correctly once charged, but I'm still wondering if it's correct for my shock to feel like it's blown because it doesn't have nitrogen in it. If I don't figure that out ahead of time I'll just go ahead and get it charged and if it's not right oh well, back apart it will come.

https://youtu.be/JjAiYKQj1V8

fabiodriven
05-19-2018, 12:34 PM
Well I dropped the shock off today for charging. The guy at the Honda dealer who charges shocks won't be in until Monday unfortunately, and the suspense is killing me. I asked them to relay the message to the shock guy to please see how the shock feels before he charges it to see if it feels right to him, so we'll see what happens.

Glamy I tried going to the welding supply place last week to see if they'd do it but they didn't have the means.

Fingers crossed!

fabiodriven
05-24-2018, 12:01 PM
My shock rebuild has been a complete and utter failure. I'm not going to express the level of disappointment I'm feeling about this right now and I might just stay home this June.

Red Rider
05-24-2018, 02:24 PM
Bummer man! Don’t let this setback get you all deflated. It’s time to rebound, and get work done!

Ghostv2
05-24-2018, 03:26 PM
I forgot to ask previously, is there a supplier where i can order the correct length hose and fittings for the reservoir to attach to the shock?
Or can i pretty much call up any suspension place and place an order for this type of stuff?

fabiodriven
05-24-2018, 04:21 PM
Lower washer stack was upside-down. It's back together and getting charged tonight.