1985 big red 250es shifting problems

[kevin]

Hey guys I'm helping a friend out with his trike that he just bought as a project it's been sitting for about four years anyways cleaned it all up and got it running but only had neutral shifter moved up and down but wasn't catching any gears.
Took left motor cover looked inside and found that the shifter bolt that holds the shifter drum center had loosened off. Tighten it back up and reassembled now it only has neutral and first gear can't get reverse or any other gears except for 1st and neutral. Could I have put this back together wrong? Kinda fumbled around getting internals back together but everything seemed right?
Also had to bypass neutral safety switch to start not sure if this has to do with anything.
Any ideas?

[ps2fixer]

Sounds like it might not be fully back together right, when it shifts into first, it should have a pretty solid click noise. What's it do when you're in first and you shift down, and does the shifter auto center on it's own well?

On the neutral safety switch, if the neutral light is on, the switch is working, there is also a reverse switch, if that's on it won't let the engine start too. It's pretty common for the dash bulbs to burn out (T3 size from memory). The swithces short to ground and you can get them new if the switch is bad (validate with a multi meter first and after you get the shift problems fixed).

It's been a while since I tore into a 250es, but if I remember right , on the end of the shift shaft that goes to the shift drum, that pin has a small ring around it. It seems to like to fall out when you take the cover off, and would probably make the shifter too sloppy to work right. If the shifter doesn't spring back good, there's a bolt in pin that somewhat commonly breaks off, pretty sure it's the same side as you was in. Also the main shaft and the gear shifter arm are not direclty connected, it's spring loaded from memory. The "cage" around the main shaft brakes somewhat common when someone jams on the shifter too hard or hits something while riding. Here's an ebay listing that kind of shows it ok in the 2nd pic.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/1985-ATC250ES-Gear-Shifter-Shift-Shaft-85-86-250ES-250SX-ATC-ATC250SX-Big-Red/192377379070?hash=item2cca95d8fe:g:X1UAAOSwHYpaG5J E&vxp=mtr

[kevin]

Just took cover off again here's some pics250798

[kevin]

250799
Here's another

[kevin]

250800
And another

[kevin]

Shifter returns to it's normal position. You can feel it shifting into 1st but the rest of the the gears almost feels like shifter isn't "stroking" far enough to get into next gear also shifter doesn't go down to get into reverse

[kevin]

Neutral light wasn't coming on with safety switch hooked up but once we disconnected it and ran the wire to ground it lit right up so I'm assuming there's something wrong with the safety switch or something inside not letting it to make contact

[kevin]

Here's a pic of it shifted into first gear. Doesn't seem like the steel tab in shifter drum is positioned quite right250801

[ps2fixer]

When you were shifting it before, was it full of oil and running? If it's not running, you'll have to spin the output shaft some for it to lock into gear, same goes for each gear change. The drum generally clicks into gear after it get's to that point, so worst case shift fork, best case, lack of oil and it's dragging too much to spin freely. It's kind of a pain, but it's possible to take the 2 nuts off the cover and pull the shift parts out and spin the drum manually while spinning the output shaft. That should push it though the gears 1-5 and back down to neutral. I don't recall exactly how reverse is setup on these internally, if it's a stopper that is released for the drum to continue past neutral or what.

All the parts I mentioned before look good for what I can see.

[kevin]

And here's a pic of it in neutral I believe. Trike rolls back and forth 250802

[kevin]

Yep there's oil even drove it around playing with shifter with same results.
Even when not running I rock it back and forth while tring to move shifter

[kevin]

Not sure why it posted same pic again lol

[ps2fixer]

I see, defo a bit weird. I'd say next step is to pull the shifter shaft out, remove the 2 bolts for the drum cover and pull the center guts out. From memory it's the main part that the shifter arm moves and two blocks with springs in them. Under all of that I'm pretty sure is a bolt that holds the "cage" thing on the shift drum. Should be able to turn that while moving the machine a little and get something like 1/2 a turn or so to run though all the gears. If it only goes a little but and doesn't go any farther no matter what you do, I'd be thinking something in the transmission isn't lined up right or a bent shift fork. I've never had one that had problems this far into it, one ones with the shift shaft with problems and assembly issues (case was crooked/binding everything up).

Also another thing to note, the output shaft is removable with the 3 bolts, if someone took it apart, there's a thrust washer or two that falls out. Not sure if that would effect shifting directly or not, but could be a possible cause.

[ps2fixer]

I worded the bolt thing a bit weird, I was meaning to use a ratchet on the bolt to turn the shift drum, not to remove the bolt. Shouldn't take a whole lot of force or anything.

[kevin]

Ok thanks I'll try that. I already had that drum cover off as that's how I found that center bolt was loose. Wasn't sure if I reassembled correctly.
The output shaft/drive has never been out of the machine

[kevin]

I noticed there's a dot on the flange of the drum is this supposed to be lined up or in a specific location?250811250811

[kevin]

Ok shifts through all 5 gears, looking at the pic now looks like it probably wasn't put back together with drum in proper location as now the dot is more counter clockwise and sitting in neutral with the detent fully bottomed out.
One I have a chance to reassemble I'm thinking it should be fine. Thanks for the help! I'll post what happens

[Dirtcrasher]

That piece of the shift drum thats held on by the 12mm bolt inside, it has a pin that locates it onto the face of the drum. It can only go one way.

Any chance someone took that output shaft housing out? where the 3 allen bolts are located? Never touch that, lol.

I like to spin tires in gear with the spark plug out, while I shift it with my hand, to visual see what's up...

[kevin]

Thanks DC, output shaft never taken out buddy bought bike off origional owner which was a farmer. Parked it about 4 years ago when it would no longer shift any gears.
That's when I found that 12mm bolt loosened off allowing the drum to come off pin and free wheel. We'll see what happens when I put back together tomorrow hopefully

[ps2fixer]

Sounds good, hopefully all goes back together well. Also tip if you're doing the work on the cheap w\o new gaskets, don't use too much rtv sealant as the engine does have an oil pump, and the excess can come off and plug oil pathways. New gasket should be something like $10-12 or less.

[kevin]

Thanks ps2 I made a gasket originally that I'll reuse.
One thing I didn't check was to see if the drum will turn into the reverse gear with it apart but am hopeful. Guess I'll check that tomorrow before I put back together

[Dirtcrasher]

^ Thats just another fork. If the drum is rotating correct, all should be correct...

[kevin]

Update it's fixed! Problem was when I put it back together the first time the shifter drum was misaligned thought it was lined up with the pin but apparently not. Shifts throught all gears nicely now even was able to hook neutral safety switch back up and functioning properly.
I guess it wasn't in neutral but in between gears before lol.
Thanks again guys for the help!!

[ps2fixer]

Nice work and no prob, figured it had to be something pretty simple, these honda engines are more or less bullet proof lol.

Don't forget other maintenance items like changing the rear diff fluid, there's an oil filter in the engine, check on the air filter, etc.

Here's a diagram where the filter is at, little easier than trying to talk it out in words. Looks like 15410-KF0-315 and 15412-KF0-010 are the same filter, probably one supersedes the other.

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/1985/atc250es-a-big-red/right-crankcase-cover