Frame Geometry for the 350X, 250R and XR600

[Ingrid Cold]

Does any one know the frame angles of certain 3 wheeler frames? Looking to convert an XR600 in the years to come and wanting to get my angles correct, IE no choppers. Would like to have the specs for some 47mm triples to run a leading axle front end and keep the proper geometry of the front end and not throw abunch of crap together.

I'm going to work on a database to allow people with a dirt bike to make a proper trike, and not some Junk Yard Dog. I don't want my swingarm coming out at a 60 degree angle and my forks so far out I can see the front tire. I know 350X triples are supposed to be the ticket, but would like to try and find the spec of the down tube and stuff.

[El Camexican]

Great thread itdea !!!!!!!!:beer

I've asked a question about the 85 VS 86 Tri-Z for this very reason. I also have questions about a swing arm I'd like to build to put on a bike. I'll make a separate thread when the time comes as I hope you will, but for now I hope we can get some input on here.

There's some good info in here.

http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/176568-Rake-and-trail-for-dummies

[barnett468]

.
Pretty simple, if you are going to use a leading axle and you want it to handle well, build it to a Tecate spec. Do not use "staggered" tripple trees.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND THE ONLY PERSON ON 3WW WITHOUT AN EDIT BUTTON OR A STAR :Bounce

[Shep1970]

Measure it. Not that tough. Ever heard of a clinometer or a pitch calculator? Now you have. There's no demand for a database when the solution is so simple.

Just putting it out there- there is a pitch calc app for i-phones, really accurate too. Sometimes i use it for a roof pitch/rafter angles, i know sounds silly but it works- especially if your hanging 40' on a latter its easier to bring my phone up than a square+level for pitch. I dont know maybe it'll help...

Shep

[El Camexican]

Measure it. Not that tough. Ever heard of a clinometer or a pitch calculator? Now you have. There's no demand for a database when the solution is so simple.

What a stupid post, your mental midgetry knows no bounds. Measuring is one thing, comparing the results to a know chassis set up requires information some may not have access to, like say a Tecate chassis. If you have nothing to add why not just fug off?


PS. Thanks for putting all the data together in the old link I posted Barns. Good stuff!

[El Camexican]

I told him how to do it himself. You fvck off. People don't have to do things your way just to please you.

You answered nothing, all you did was inject your special brand of duchery into the thread. Stick to what you know and go beat some nails straight, or better yet just go whack your tack.

[Ingrid Cold]

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is illusion of knowledge.

I know it can be done with minimal work.... but I want to know the numbers and what I'm dealing with, not just guessing and cobbling trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro together I'm getting off ebay. The USD fork swap comes to mind here on the XRL, people were going crazy over it, using triples that were stuck out farther than the XR had stock, then putting forks with 1.1 inches of extra travel and then bragging about how well they turned. Same thing for that POS FCR carb. If it's cool do it, dont ask questions. Billy Bob says it's a winner. And the earth may be flat too for that matter.

For some of us, we have to know why the sky is blue, or what will be advantageous at speed, and what will be better in the woods, we all know the answer, but few people know what is going on, show me hard evidence, show me the numbers of the angles, show me how you over came differences in the frames, other than bath salts and a Lincoln Tombstone welder.

Oh well, this thead escalated quickly.

Read Zen and the "Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, an Inquiry into Values", it will help you understand this quest. If people are so smart, lets see your proof, other than "it just does".


Sent from a pay phone

[Ingrid Cold]

.
Pretty simple, if you are going to use a leading axle and you want it to handle well, build it to a Tecate spec. Do not use "staggered" tripple trees.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND THE ONLY PERSON ON 3WW WITHOUT AN EDIT BUTTON OR A STAR :BounceI'll be in contact with you later for some "lite" brain picking if you don't mind.

Sent from a pay phone

[barnett468]

i'll be in contact with you later for some "lite" brain picking if you don't mind.


No prob, not that I have much brain left to pick. There's also a few others here like christph that know quite a bit about the TECATE...The Most Powerful 250cc 3 Wheeler In The Universe! :lol:

You can send me a pm if you want as well.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND THE ONLY PERSON ON 3WW WITHOUT AN EDIT BUTTON OR A STAR :Bounce

[El Camexican]

You can send me a pm if you want as well.

That PM stuff sounds very Milneresque

[Shawn Powell]

What a stupid post, your mental midgetry knows no bounds. Measuring is one thing, comparing the results to a know chassis set up requires information some may not have access to, like say a Tecate chassis. If you have nothing to add why not just fug off?


PS. Thanks for putting all the data together in the old link I posted Barns. Good stuff!

Trolls gonna troll.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[El Camexican]

What exactly is it that you are doing here then? Hmm?


I provided a suggestion for a proven method of figuring frame geometry and a tool to use, which even if the database is pursued, will help any willing participant. I'm a professional motorcycle technician that has built multiple custom framed bikes. What do you have to offer Shawn?

Please share a picture with the class of a frame that you have raked.

I'm not trying to say that you're useless, I'm just saying that the best part of you ran down your mothers leg.

[Shawn Powell]

What exactly is it that you are doing here then? Hmm?


I provided a suggestion for a proven method of figuring frame geometry and a tool to use, which even if the database is pursued, will help any willing participant. I'm a professional motorcycle technician that has built multiple custom framed bikes. What do you have to offer Shawn?

Well “the dude” I have posted more than few mods, builds , and suggestions over the last year or so and also just interacted in a somewhat positive manner. You for the most part just post the diarrhea that flows from your seemingly constipated brain. From what I can gather you’ve been banned multiple times and continue to come back when nobody wants you here. Instead of re evaluating your actions you continue to take selfies in a busted gold chain while driving your moms Chrysler 300c around Iowa. At this point I wonder if you’ve ever even ridden a three wheeler let alone own one. Now please run along and let the man continue with his very excellent thread idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Footy]

I like both ideas. The Inclinometer and some info on existing frame angles. Why don't you guys edit your posts to get rid of the trash talk before the moderators blow this thread out. I would like to see where this goes. We are all here because we are weirdos that still like to ride 3 wheelers. Maybe some really cool machine will be built due to the discussions here (if we can give useful info). Wheelie on dudes!

[El Camexican]

I wasn't planning on posting anything about this for a while as I'm giving myself two years to complete this and wasn't even planning to start for another few months, but seeing as I have a lot of questions and issues to deal with I figure this thread is as good a place as any to start asking them.

So this is what I want to turn into a trike. I've had my eye out for the right donor bike for a while now and this one came up the other day for the right price and in the right condition. I'm hoping to do this build in a way that if I do have to throw in the towel at some point I'll still be able to make it back into a bike, but if not and it does become a trike I'll have lots of spare parts for my other girls.

247416
247417

The rake looks to be about 2° less than my TRI-Z which should be easy enough to adjust with the rear shock location if that ends up being the desired rake angle. However I'm planning to use the KTM WP forks which are easy to shorten, but have a leading axle vs the trailing axle on the TRI -Z.

The biggest investment aside from the price of the bike is going to be the front and, so I want to make sure I get it as close to perfect as possible on the first try.

I spoke with a buddy who used to be a regular on here they gave me a few recommendations four guys that might be interested in building my triple tree. I plan to start contacting them early next year, but hope to have some idea what it is I'm looking for before I start bothering them with questions.

I think I'm going to build the swingarm myself, but I need to decide which carrier and axle I'll be using. The KTM quad swingarm would be the ultimate way to go, but it uses a link shock system and I would prefer to keep the PDS set up as it will facilitate ease of height adjustment as well as simplify setting up the shock. I really like the ATC style swing arms that clamp onto the carriers, but I've never taken a good look at how the brake carrier works on that setup. I also want to make sure I choose something that has wheels and axles readily available.

Tons to think about and learn (we can't all be as smart as Dude) may as well start now.

[bkm]

I wasn't planning on posting anything about this for a while as I'm giving myself two years to complete this and wasn't even planning to start for another few months, but seeing as I have a lot of questions and issues to deal with I figure this thread is as good a place as any to start asking them.

So this is what I want to turn into a trike. I've had my eye out for the right donor bike for a while now and this one came up the other day for the right price and in the right condition. I'm hoping to do this build in a way that if I do have to throw in the towel at some point I'll still be able to make it back into a bike, but if not and it does become a trike I'll have lots of spare parts for my other girls.

247416
247417

The rake looks to be about 2° less than my TRI-Z which should be easy enough to adjust with the rear shock location if that ends up being the desired rake angle. However I'm planning to use the KTM WP forks which are easy to shorten, but have a leading axle vs the trailing axle on the TRI -Z.

The biggest investment aside from the price of the bike is going to be the front and, so I want to make sure I get it as close to perfect as possible on the first try.

I spoke with a buddy who used to be a regular on here they gave me a few recommendations four guys that might be interested in building my triple tree. I plan to start contacting them early next year, but hope to have some idea what it is I'm looking for before I start bothering them with questions.

I think I'm going to build the swingarm myself, but I need to decide which carrier and axle I'll be using. The KTM quad swingarm would be the ultimate way to go, but it uses a link shock system and I would prefer to keep the PDS set up as it will facilitate ease of height adjustment as well as simplify setting up the shock. I really like the ATC style swing arms that clamp onto the carriers, but I've never taken a good look at how the brake carrier works on that setup. I also want to make sure I choose something that has wheels and axles readily available.

Tons to think about and learn (we can't all be as smart as Dude) may as well start now.Look into the honda 450r rear setup. It's similar to the 250r, but parts are cheaper and available. I have a 04/05 450r swingarm I'll trade you for some black dirtbike wheels if you'd like?

[El Camexican]

Me likes that idea kemosabe

[BOB MARLIN]

Getting back to the original purpose of this thread---------

Frame geometry is one thing, but getting the "Rake and Trail" right is the important part of getting something to steer right. On a trike you want to keep the "Trail" part of the equation short, no matter what "Rake" you end up with.

[El Camexican]

I'll leave you scientists alone.

Promises, promises….

[El Camexican]

I'm being directly addressed. And now you're trolling.

Send me the ticket.

[BOB MARLIN]

At one time, I read a thread where someone had scoped out the different rake angles and trail numbers for various trikes. I think it might have been Jason Hall-not sure. And it may have even been on the other 3 wheeler site before it went down (the old .org site). You might try to search here or even on the old site (it kinda still works) for that thread.

When I did my 450 conversion I measured the rake angle on one of my 350x's and I think it was close to about 23 deg. and the trail was around 3.5". I think the 350x handles the best out of all the trikes so that's what I shot for when I built the 450. I had to play with the numbers on the triples I built, and lower the rear top shock mount to try to get there. I still couldn't get to my target numbers but I was able to get it close enough to work well.

[El Camexican]

At one time, I read a thread where someone had scoped out the different rake angles and trail numbers for various trikes. I think it might have been Jason Hall-not sure. And it may have even been on the other 3 wheeler site before it went down (the old .org site). You might try to search here or even on the old site (it kinda still works) for that thread.

When I did my 450 conversion I measured the rake angle on one of my 350x's and I think it was close to about 23 deg. and the trail was around 3.5". I think the 350x handles the best out of all the trikes so that's what I shot for when I built the 450. I had to play with the numbers on the triples I built, and lower the rear top shock mount to try to get there. I still couldn't get to my target numbers but I was able to get it close enough to work well.

I posted a link to a thread in post #2 of this thread that might be the one you're referring to. It's a good read.

[BOB MARLIN]

I read that thread a couple times before I started my project and it was a big help in making me understand what effects steering and why. The funny thing is I remember kacey bringing that missile out to the invasion and saying the steering was way too twitchy. I believe its because the missile is using trike geometry in a two wheel configuration. The same is true when you use a two wheeler frame for a trike, but in reverse, the steering gets "heavy" instead of twitchy.

[El Camexican]

Here’s what I come up with so far.

1985 TRI-Z 250 (with 4” over swing-arm and forks extended ½” above the clamps)

Head Rake ......... 20 deg.
Fork Rake ...........26 deg.
Fork Length………..31.1”
F. Tire Dia…………24”
Wheel Base .........?
Dry weight ...........?
Wet weight ......... ?
Wet bias .............F ? / R ?
Bias percentage ... F ? / R ?
Axle position .......Trailing
Triple tree angle ...6 deg. staggered
Swing Arm length…?
Calculated Trail Neg. - .15” (guesstimate this would be about positive .6” if stock swing-arm was used)

1998/2003 KTM 250/300/380

Head Rake ......... 25 deg.
Fork Rake ...........25 deg.
Fork Length………..35.75”
F. Tire Dia…………28”
Wheel Base .........?
Dry weight ...........?
Wet weight ......... ?
Wet bias .............F ? / R ?
Bias percentage ... F ? / R ?
Axle position .......Leading
Triple tree angle ...0 deg.
Swing Arm length…?
Calculated Trail Pos. 5.98”

I’m wondering if a set of Halls USD triple trees is angled like the stockers? If he uses a zero angle and retains the same 1” offset and all other variables are the same that would make the trail positive 3.3” VS negative less than 1” on the stocker I would think that would dramatically change how the trike handles and likely for the better based on the comments I've seen.

[El Camexican]

Yout tri-z without a doubt does not have negative trail.

According to this it does http://www.carbonfibervalvecovers.com/tools/rake_trail.html

It wouldn't if not for the added length of the swing-arm and the forks being above the top of the triple tree. As well, the measurements were taken in a static position. Adding a rider would also put it back into positive territory as it's is only .15" negative as it sits.

On the topic there was a study done in the UK in which a BMW was set up with an adjustable rake and they tested it to the point of having the forks vertical. See below.


https://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/RakeEx/RakeEx.htm

[El Camexican]

Let me put it another way; the CL of the steering head intersects almost perfectly with vertical line of the axle, so I don't understand how that can equate to several inches of trail.