basic thumb vs twist throttle question

[this old rz]

Okay perhaps I am just not getting it it's been a long time since I've used a thumb throttle but I hear people saying they have trouble with twist is there an inherent problem with a Twist throttle as most all dirt bikes ever made have a rwist w no real issues? it is it something that having triangulated rear wheels makes a difference on I would think not ? For me I don't perceive any real problem with either or with the exception of I'm going to have hand problems with either or due to carpal tunnel and arm pump so if my phone holds up through the arch I don't really care I'm just curious as ever it a lot have different opinions

[Queef Chief]

For me, I think it's the direct steer of the three wheeler and four wheeler that makes it feel so much different than leaning a bike to steer. After sliding through a turn then hooking up, it was always so easy to "whiskey throttle" a three wheelers. I suppose it boils down to personal preference. Just my .02


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[christph]

I have thumb and twist throttles on my various machines. Personally I prefer twist throttles as they allow you to keep a tighter and safer grip on the bars. With a thumb throttle you lose your thumb as a means of holding on, and in rough terrain it makes it easier to lose your grip.

[Hopper055]

It has to do with the diffrence beween how you balance and steer the machines. That being said there are people that prefer there throttles different than the norm. My recommendation to you is to try both and see what you like. Theres no reason for you to do something because eveyone else does. After all it is your trike and your comfort. For me my bikes get twist and trikes/quads get thumb. Though I might try a twist on this 250r just because I think it will be a different experience on a sport trike vs utility.

[Rob Canadian]

Always had a bike over the last 30 years. Rode a couple trikes back in the day. I got my trike awhile back. I found the thumb throttle normal. Natural I guess. I am going to swap out my bars and look into a twist throttle. I may or may not like it(?) Hard to say without trying it.

[efhondakid]

I don't like the twist on trikes/quads, 3-wheelers especially when making making a tight left hand turn trying to turn the bars away from you and roll the throttle the opposite direction can be a bit tricky. It really comes down to personal preference. There is a guy I race harescrambles with that runs a thumb throttle on a bike!

[fieldy]

I like a twist on 2 strokes and a thumb on 4 strokes. The last breed of kxts had a twist, not positive but i was under the impression that the 250r and tri-z did also. I can only say the kxts came factory twist and Kawasaki had their reasons for doing so. They had a pile of thumb thottles laying around and put a bike throttle on.
Did the guys racing the final generation trikes at the time race with twisties?
To me 2 strokes and twisties go together, my choice.
I know that in certain circumstances a thumb trottle would be great. Maybe even 50% of the time, just my opinion. Again coming down to personal preference and what you are comfortable with. Certainly not liking thumb on a 2 stroke in turns.
Now 200x, thumb i love. Fun topic.

[JacobMonster]

A lot of good points here. I personally would never put a twist on a trike. The way I ride and the way you lean into corners, I feel I would be hindered trying not to twist the throttle as I lean over the bike in a corner or try to slide it.

Talk to Rob. He even has a thumb throttle on his CRF lol.
So really, it's preference, nothing more, nothing less.

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[BOB MARLIN]

Go to youtube and type in "twist throttle gone wrong". You will get a pretty good visual of what can happen. No guarantee that it wouldn't happen with a thumber, but I think you have a little more control if things get messy.

[6spdls1z28]

I've had both and I'm equally comfortable with both on a trike.

[MPDano]

Go to youtube and type in "twist throttle gone wrong". You will get a pretty good visual of what can happen. No guarantee that it wouldn't happen with a thumber, but I think you have a little more control if things get messy.

I got a great video of me eating it hard on a track on my KTM 250SXF. Tried to clear a 30 foot jump and hit the lip at 25, went WOT right into a tire on the track and it flung me full speed hitting my chest on a dirt curb. Concussion, knocked the wind out of me and I thought I broke my back. Really easy to go full out of control throttle when you get too far back on the bike. I too was thinking of the thumb throttle on my dirt bikes. Natural on trikes and quads.

I'm 50 now and I need to come to grips that I can't fly like I used to on my BMX bike at 17, lol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpCwfRtnzzI

239037

[6spdls1z28]

I got a great video of me eating it hard on a track on my KTM 250SXF. Tried to clear a 30 foot jump and hit the lip at 25, went WOT right into a tire on the track and it flung me full speed hitting my chest on a dirt curb. Concussion, knocked the wind out of me and I thought I broke my back. Really easy to go full out of control throttle when you get too far back on the bike. I too was thinking of the thumb throttle on my dirt bikes. Natural on trikes and quads.

I'm 50 now and I need to come to grips that I can't fly like I used to on my BMX bike at 17, lol.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpCwfRtnzzI

239037

That was a nasty crash.

[MPDano]

That was a nasty crash.

Yes sir, it was. It's always in the back of my head when I ride my dirt bike now. This thread really got me thinking about converting my dirt bike to thumb. I just need to find one for an FCR carb. It uses a push/pull cable.

[efhondakid]

I just need to find one for an FCR carb. It uses a push/pull cable.

Just run the pull cable only. That's how the guy I race with runs his and he has never had a problem with it.

[MPDano]

Just run the pull cable only. That's how the guy I race with runs his and he has never had a problem with it.

Interesting. Same cable, just don't hook up the push cable?

What I like is the Dual Gasser set ups with both twist and thumb. You can lock the twist. It uses a single cable though. If what you say is true on not using the push cable, this may work.

[6spdls1z28]

Yes sir, it was. It's always in the back of my head when I ride my dirt bike now. This thread really got me thinking about converting my dirt bike to thumb. I just need to find one for an FCR carb. It uses a push/pull cable.

I've had so many bad crashes when I used to race. My favorite one to this day I was going as fast as I could through a whoop section lost control and went face first into one of the whoops. Still don't know if that knocked me out or my buddy behind me running over my head. I stopped riding for a few years when I moved to the city then moved back to the country I had no balls to do anything I used to do and would only think about my wrecks. This sounds bad but I started drinking beer before I would ride just to get back into it. Now I don't think about it anymore.

[MPDano]

I've had so many bad crashes when I used to race. My favorite one to this day I was going as fast as I could through a whoop section lost control and went face first into one of the whoops. Still don't know if that knocked me out or my buddy behind me running over my head. I stopped riding for a few years when I moved to the city then moved back to the country I had no balls to do anything I used to do and would only think about my wrecks. This sounds bad but I started drinking beer before I would ride just to get back into it. Now I don't think about it anymore.

Ha ha. Yeah, used to drink one of those airplane vodka bottles before I had to give a speech in college. Worked like a charm. Maybe a beer is what I need before a ride now. Either way, getting more motivated to convert the dirtbike to a thumber.

[6spdls1z28]

Ha ha. Yeah, used to drink one of those airplane vodka bottles before I had to give a speech in college. Worked like a charm. Maybe a beer is what I need before a ride now. Either way, getting more motivated to convert the dirtbike to a thumber.

Hey it might work for you too. I've never ridden a dirt bike with a thumb throttle would be cool to try.

[efhondakid]

The push cable isn't needed. I had to make a cable for my old lady's CL360 when I swapped it from a push/pull to single.

I'd imagine that the bike pull cable would be too long and that a thumb throttle wouldn't have the throw to it to get WOT. You'll have to try it and see.

[MPDano]

The push cable isn't needed. I had to make a cable for my old lady's CL360 when I swapped it from a push/pull to single.

I'd imagine that the bike pull cable would be too long and that a thumb throttle wouldn't have the throw to it to get WOT. You'll have to try it and see.

Yeah, I was reading a YFZ450 cable is what I need for the conversion. Gonna get the Terry Dual Gasser combo. This way I can switch back to twist easily.

239064

[efhondakid]

Not sure how I feel about that...

[350xtrike.rider]

The first day my dad brought his 84 Tecate home from the dealership (equiped with a twist throttle) my uncle hopped on the thing to take a lap around the yard. The first lap around, he ran it full bore 5th gear pinned right into the side of their porch. He blames it on the twist throttle.

The only twist throttle, not on a dirt bike, I've ever used was on an 87 Tecate 4. I find it harder to control the RPMs then with a thumb throttle. Again that's just my personal preference.

[barnett468]

The first day my dad brought his 84 Tecate home from the dealership (equiped with a twist throttle) my uncle hopped on the thing to take a lap around the yard. The first lap around, he ran it full bore 5th gear pinned right into the side of their porch. He blames it on the twist throttle.

When the FACT is that he he was refusing to accept responsibility for his own lack of skill just like a like a lot of other people did that got the sale of new 3 wheelers in the US stopped.



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[350xtrike.rider]

Well that escalated quickly :lol:
he was the local amateur champion in 85/86 on his 250r

[barnett468]

he was the local amateur champion in 85/86 on his 250r

The word "Amateur" is a significant one, also, experience with a thumb throttle is obviously not the same as experience with a twist throttle and vise versa, however, since the TECATE is the most powerful 3 wheeler in the universe, it is possible that the additional power it had over the 250r was at least a contributing factor to his unintentional remodeling of their house.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[El Camexican]

Twist throttles cost much less than thumb throttles. This may be why they ended up on the Mighty Tecate trikes. Cost savings may also explain easily discolored gas tank materials and electrical components on these trikes. Yamaha on the other hand put more attention into such details on their Tri-Z

[Queef Chief]

Twist throttles cost much less than thumb throttles. This may be why they ended up on the Mighty Tecate trikes. Cost savings may also explain easily discolored gas tank materials and electrical components on these trikes. Yamaha on the other hand put more attention into such details on their Tri-Z

I love my Mighty Tecates, but this is quality entertainment right here. [emoji16]


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[efhondakid]

Twist throttles cost much less than thumb throttles. This may be why they ended up on the Mighty Tecate trikes. Cost savings may also explain easily discolored gas tank materials and electrical components on these trikes. Yamaha on the other hand put more attention into such details on their Tri-Z

They were both left in the dust by the supreme 3-wheeler overlord that is the 250R. :D:D

[barnett468]

.
Well since I was involved with the development of "The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" since its inception until the demise of ALL 3 wheelers in the US which was caused by the "Consent Decree", I happen to know for a FACT that cost was NOT a consideration when deciding which style of throttle to use . The FACT is that "The TECATE....The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" received a twist throttle because that is what I and the vast majority of people whom were involved in making that decision wanted it to have.

Another FACT is that the majority of the PRO level 3 wheel racers including myself, used twist throttles, however, since I never asked all of racers that used twist throttles, why they used them, or whether they preferred twist throttles or thumb throttles, I don't know for certain why they used them . Also, since the Tri Z NEVER won a single PRO level championship while these bikes were in production like "The Tecate....The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" did SEVERAL times, nor to my knowledge did it ever even win a PRO level race during this time, it doesn't seem reasonable to use it as an example of why a thumb throttle may be superior in application to a twist throttle . In reality, the FACT that most, if not all of these races were won by people riding bikes that had twist throttles suggests that twist throttles outperform the thumb throttles in this particular application.



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

[barnett468]

They were both left in the dust by the supreme 3-wheeler overlord that is the 250R. :D:D

ummm...the FACT is that "The TECATE....The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler in The Universe! won SEVERAL races and SEVERAL Championships over both the Tri Z's and 250r's including the very last 3 wheeler race ever held at Saddleback Park which was a PRO short track race that included most of the top riders in the world including Jimmy White which was won by ME with Jimmy getting second and Honda lagging somewhere further behind in OUR dust . Another FACT is that I won that race using our test bike which had the stock electrical system and mostly stock chassis, suspension, swing arm, and clutch. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

[350xtrike.rider]

Kinda partial to Tecates (the most powerful three wheeler on the universe) I see.
IF I had to be roasted atleast it was by the guy that designed the Tecate :lol:

[fieldy]

I would like to give a tip of the hat to a winning racer of that day, Barnett. That is very impressive and an outstanding accomplishment to win a main National on a track of legends with the fear instilling qualities of the Tecate.
I think now that with certainty it can be said thumb throttles and Tecates is a thumbs down. All those who agree say i.

[fieldy]

Twist throttles cost much less than thumb throttles. This may be why they ended up on the Mighty Tecate trikes. Cost savings may also explain easily discolored gas tank materials and electrical components on these trikes. Yamaha on the other hand put more attention into such details on their Tri-Z

El Camexican, did the tri-z come with a thumb or twist? I checked one black and yellow one out one time at a dealership eons ago. Yamaha and Honda did have a more quality look than the green missles Kawasaki beat all them at the track with.

[6spdls1z28]

El Camexican, did the tri-z come with a thumb or twist? I checked one black and yellow one out one time at a dealership eons ago. Yamaha and Honda did have a more quality look than the green missles Kawasaki beat all them at the track with.

Came with thumb

[czac]

Okay perhaps I am just not getting it it's been a long time since I've used a thumb throttle but I hear people saying they have trouble with twist is there an inherent problem with a Twist throttle as most all dirt bikes ever made have a twist w no real issues? it is it something that having triangulated rear wheels makes a difference on I would think not ? For me I don't perceive any real problem with either or with the exception of I'm going to have hand problems with either or due to carpal tunnel and arm pump so if my phone holds up through the arch I don't really care I'm just curious as ever it a lot have different opinions

I can go either way... I guess you can call me a "Bi-Throttler. lol The only reason for me to use one over the other is its what ever is on the bike. If its got a thumb Throttle ill use it, if its a twist? Ill use it. Hell when I was a kid we had an old Rupp Roadster with no throttle so we tied a piece of string to it and tied the other end to our leg and just moved our knees in and out to go fast or slow. lol

[czac]

which was won by ME with Jimmy getting second and Honda lagging somewhere further behind in OUR dust . Another FACT is that I won that race using our test bike which had the stock electrical system and mostly stock chassis, suspension, swing arm, and clutch. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif



Nice...did you ever race Motocross on two Wheelers back in the 70s? there was a Barnett who was a racer back then. As I recall he was pretty good too!

[efhondakid]

I like the twistys for flat track, when you can be tucked in and locked out and the throttle is right in your lap. But harescrambles no thank you, my dad ran a twist on his R when he raced them and has the state title to prove it worked for him, so again it goes back to that personal preference.

[El Camexican]

El Camexican, did the tri-z come with a thumb or twist? I checked one black and yellow one out one time at a dealership eons ago. Yamaha and Honda did have a more quality look than the green missles Kawasaki beat all them at the track with.

Yes, the Tri-Z came with a thumb throttle that could barely open a 34mm carb all the way :lol:

The FACT (some folks like to capitalize that word) is that Yamaha was the last one to the race trike party and had the least amount of development in it and likely had little to no support for privateers. Consider that both Honda and Kawasaki factory programs before the first Tri-Z was ever released to the public. It’s pretty hard to get a privateer to sell last year’s trike at a loss and change his wardrobe in order to buy an unproven trike. Then came the issues that ended trike sales in the USA, so aside from a few small improvements like the front end and a 6th gear from 85 to 86 Yamaha was at least another year away from well rounded product.

Watch the old videos of trike races on YouTube, it’s a sea of green. Honda had factory riders at all the events, but if you were racing on your own dime seems you had to go green, or pony up for a Tiger, or some other exotic trike, I don’t think anyone will argue that. This is a common thread in all motorsports; the vehicle that can be purchased and made race ready for the least amount of money will always be the privateers choice. Going only off what I recall reading the Tecate had a tighter ratio transmission and a power band better suited to a track than a trail, so that was what the masses raced.

Fast forward 30 years and running Tecate’s are a lot harder to find that Hondas and Yamaha’s. Availability is so bad that at least one of Kawasaki’s former employees had had to suck it up and buy a Tri-Z in order to have a decent ride.:lol::lol::lol:

Anyone who would argue that the Honda’s weren’t the most reliable and refined trikes of the day is delusional. There’s no such thing as a trike that can do everything perfectly, but Honda came the closest. Kawi went for the race market and Yamaha took deliberate steps to make the Tri-Z user friendly with a very detuned 250 engine, a headlight that didn’t tear off the first time you rode into a bush and a well-protected air box. Had the Tri-Z been designed as a racing trike they would have come with a YZ engine, larger carb, a disposable headlight… and maybe even a twist throttle :lol:

Would anyone have surpassed Honda in sales, or Kawasaki as the privateers first choice had the ban not happened, or just delayed a few years? Who knows, in racing, today’s peacock is tomorrows feather duster, but one thing is indisputable; Honda’s were engineered and marketed to make money for the Honda Corporation and they blew all the others out of the water in sales. Perhaps their success can be attributed to being smart enough to fit thumb throttles on them knowing that anyone who wanted to could later convert them to twist throttles for a few bucks? It’s small details like this that separate successful engineers from those who gave the world the Edsel and handlebar mounted headlights.

[barnett468]

.
This is obviously unrelated to the thread topic (off point as someone here might say), however, since some of you seem to be entertained by it and the thread isn't getting trashed, I will post a reply for some peoples possible enjoyment whom will most likely be Kawasaki owners. ;)



Availability is so bad that at least one of Kawasaki’s former employees had had to suck it up and buy a Tri-Z in order to have a decent ride.

This in incorrect . The capitalized FACT is that the former (PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT) he is referring to is aware of several TECATE's that are for sale and can buy anyone one of them if he wanted and he primarily bought his mostly original Yammie with the original matching number engine to whore out on Ebay for a profit after he details it.
http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/evilone.gif




Going only off what I recall reading the Tecate had a tighter ratio transmission and a power band better suited to a track than a trail, so that was what the masses raced.

In my opinion (not that my opinion matters), the FACT that the 250r had a SIX SPEED gearbox compared to the Tecate's FIVE SPEED gear box suggests that the Honda should have been better overall, yet both had a fairly similar top speed and the Tecate would still beat the Honda 9 times out of 10 not only in the direct back to back tests that I performed, but also in several tests the magazines performed . I can only speculate in fear just how fast a Tecate would have been if it had a six speed gear box.

http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/omg.gif




It’s small details like this that separate successful engineers from those who gave the world the Edsel and handlebar mounted headlights.

Hmmm, lets see, if I recall correctly, "The TECATE...The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" won SEVERAL Championships that Team Honda competed in, and in FACT, Honda was in such fear of the mighty Tecate that it became so desperate to win at times that they not only barred Kawasaki riders practicing in advance of race day like their riders could at the races they sponsored, they also got caught red handed CHEATING on not just one but TWO separate occasions . In addition, they STOLE the top end off of one of their own riders bikes for one major race hoping that it would help one of their other riders they liked better win instead. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/shrug.gif

Based on "small details like this" which are FACTS, I would say that the engineers and others whom were involved in the development of "The TECATE....The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" were quite successful. http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/thumbsup.gif



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

[barnett468]

Nice...did you ever race Motocross on two Wheelers back in the 70s? there was a Barnett who was a racer back then. As I recall he was pretty good too!

I don't want to detour this thread but I will briefly reply by saying, yes, I rode in the PRO MX class and raced against a few of the top riders in the world on a few occasions, however, I was not one of them . I was more of a good a local level PRO and put much more time into practicing pounding beers and chasing chicks than I did practicing racing . If you google my name you will see it appear several times in old Cycle News magazines . The Barnett you are thinking of is likely factory Suzuki rider Mark Barnett. and if so, then yes, you recall correctly, he was very fast.



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT . http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/therethere.gif

[efhondakid]

Would the difference in power be that the Tecate (most powerful trike in the universe) motor is basically a KX250 motor that was already a proven motor as compared to the R and Z that were more or less new designs, few quest from their two-wheeled counterparts. That and the lack of counter balancer which I'm sure robs some power?

[barnett468]

Would the difference in power be that the Tecate (most powerful trike in the universe) motor is basically a KX250 motor that was already a proven motor as compared to the R and Z that were more or less new designs, few quest from their two-wheeled counterparts. That and the lack of counter balancer which I'm sure robs some power?

Xlnt question . The Tecate cylinder was a brand new design made specifically for that app, and I and one other person whom were the primary test riders tested a few different ones to determine which one we liked best . We also tried several different pipes . After we were done, we let the other R & D bike riders try it to get their feedback . The design was far different and far less powerful from that of the KX250 . I, Chris White, and Donnie Luce all ran Harry Klemm modified Tecate cylinders and heads and one of his pipes along with stock Tecate ignitions on our race bikes . The parts we got from Harry were exactly the same as the ones he made available to the public, therefore, we didn't have any advantage like the one off works parts that the Team Honda riders had access to . Jimmie White, got a KX250 cylinder and had Daryll Bassani port the bejesus out of it and make a pipe for it and ran a KX250 stator, so his bike had more power than ours . People often attribute Jimmies great starts to riding skill, however, they were mainly due to his bike . I and most any top PRO rider could have gotten equally good starts on his bike.

The gear ratio on the Tecate's is also different than the KX250 and we went through a few different combos until we settled in one that we felt would be best overall.

Yes, you could say that in one way the counter balancer will eat a little hp kinda sorta, but that really is a complicated subject . It's also important to keep in mind that even though the Kawi had more power than the Honda, we knowingly paid a price for some of that extra power by not running a counter balancer because the lack of one caused the bike to vibrate far more than a Honda which many people complained about, so I'm guessing that issue hurt sales to some degree . I definitely noticed a big difference in vibration between the Honda and the Kawi but the greater vibration of the Kawi never bothered me, however, if it was any worse, it would have been unacceptable for production in most peoples opinions at Kawi so it definitely was on the threshold of being excessive even for us.




PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT :Bounce

[christph]

I have all of the big three, the 250R (82,84,86), the Tecate (84-87), and TRI-Z (86), so I have a pretty good vantage point to compare them. All my 86's are modded essentially the same, hi-comp piston, aftermarket exhaust, 38 mm carburetor, etc., and they are all 250s (no big bores). Some day I might do a write up comparing them all on suspension, handling, etc. Focusing on the engines for now, I can say the Honda is the slowest. I'm not saying this as a partisan of any manufacturer--I love all my boys. And I am not talking about top speed but how fast it gets there. I've come to the conclusion that the reason the Honda is the slowest is its huge counterbalancer. If you've taken it out before, you know it weighs a ton. It gives the engine an even, almost no hit power band, but it also slows its revs significantly. Having said that, I think the Honda has the highest build quality and reliability. Regarding the Tecate vs. TRI-Z engines, that's a hard call. Honestly, I would give the edge to the TRI-Z. Before I bought it I didn't expect a whole lot from the Z, mostly because what I read in old shootouts. After modding it out, however, including the Wrench Report, I can say it is an impressive engine. It is strong everywhere (for a 2 stroke) but also has a massive hit when you want it. The 1st generation Tecate also has a massive hit--probably harder than my Z--but it is weaker elsewhere and therefore harder to ride. I also like it that the 86 Z has a 6 speed transmission with good spacing. The Honda's 6th gear is too tall and the Tecate only has 5 gears that are too narrowly spaced for my tastes. Finally, I like it that they are all different. If they were all the same riding wouldn't be as fun.

[barnett468]

I have all of the big three, the 250R (82,84,86), the Tecate (84-87), and TRI-Z (86), so I have a pretty good vantage point to compare them. All my 86's are modded essentially the same, hi-comp piston, aftermarket exhaust, 38 mm carburetor, etc., and they are all 250s (no big bores). Some day I might do a write comparing them all. Focusing on the engines for now, I can say the Honda is the slowest. And I am not talking about top speed but how fast it gets there. I've come to the conclusion that the reason the Honda is the slowest is its huge counterbalancer. If you've taken it out before, you know it weighs a ton.

One of the fatal flaws in the Honda is the design of the transfer ports . They have far less of an arc to them then the Tecate does and they fought this problem the entire time which is one of the reasons Honda made one off works cylinders which they still had problems with . As far as the counter balancer weight goes, yes it is heavy but the diameter is far smaller than the flywheel, therefore, some of the additional weight of the rotating mass caused by the counter balancer can be offset by simply running a lighter flywheel which my guess is exactly what Honda did on their race bikes.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT
http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/santa.gif

[efhondakid]

Man we really derailed this thread, but I do believe we answered the OPs question within the first two pages.

[christph]

One of the fatal flaws in the Honda is the design of the transfer ports . They have far less of an arc to them then the Tecate does and they fought this problem the entire time which is one of the reasons Honda made one off works cylinders which they still had problems with . As far as the counter balancer weight goes, yes it is heavy but the diameter is far smaller than the flywheel, therefore, some of the additional weight of the rotating mass caused by the counter balancer can be offset by simply running a lighter flywheel which my guess is exactly what Honda did on their race bikes.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT
http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/santa.gif

That's interesting about the arc of the exhaust ports--I've noticed that. The Tecate also seems to have a larger intake manifold and ports. On the TRX250R website someone said it has a more modern port layout and CP's Sphynx cylinder is similar to it--and that's one of the best aftermarket cylinders out there for the R. Regarding the 250R's flywheel, I put a lighter one in it and it helped a little but not much.

[El Camexican]

The capitalized FACT is that the former (PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND OWNER OF A TRI Z // primarily bought his mostly original Yammie with the original matching number engine to whore out on Ebay for a profit after he details it.

Will you be selling it with the period correct telephone tether cord, or will that be sold separately? Those don’t come up on eBay much since Smart phones came out.


In my opinion (not that my opinion matters), the FACT that the 250r had a SIX SPEED gearbox compared to the Tecate's FIVE SPEED gear box suggests that the Honda should have been better overall, yet both had a fairly similar top speed and the Tecate would still beat the Honda 9 times out of 10 not only in the direct back to back tests that I performed, but also in several tests the magazines performed . I can only speculate in fear just how fast a Tecate would have been if it had a six speed gear box.

What has the amount of gears in a transmission got to do with the top speed of a vehicle? Please explain, we love to learn here at 3WW.


Based on "small details like this" which are FACTS, I would say that the engineers and others whom were involved in the development of "The TECATE....The Most Powerful 3 Wheeler In The Universe!" were quite successful.

FACT, the Mighty Tecate was the hands down winners of ALL the 1987 250cc trike shootouts. I imagine it really was lonely at the top :lol:

[barnett468]

Regarding the 250R's flywheel, I put a lighter one in it and it helped a little but not much.


Did you put an internal rotor one on there like the PVL below?
................................................ht tps://i5.wal.co/asr/46b27f2b-0391-4d35-8aa7-1f0f9514fa1c_1.d9d00cadfdbdab9f0aaea10edae8c7db.jp eg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[christph]

Did you put an internal rotor one on there like the PVL below?
................................................ht tps://i5.wal.co/asr/46b27f2b-0391-4d35-8aa7-1f0f9514fa1c_1.d9d00cadfdbdab9f0aaea10edae8c7db.jp eg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

No, I've considered putting a PVL on it but I like having lights. If I decide to go no lights I'll probably do the 2001 CR 250 ignition system, which is supposed to be a night and day difference from stock. I bought a Ricky Stator lightened flywheel before he ran out. I think I got the 2nd to last one. It's 200 grams less than stock. I do plan on putting a PVL on one of my Tecates some day.

[barnett468]

No,

I bought a Ricky Stator lightened flywheel before he ran out. It's 200 grams less than stock.

I do plan on putting a PVL on one of my Tecates some day.

Ok, that explains why you only noticed a small difference . If you put an internal rotor one on it, you will notice a very large difference . It will also be much easier to kill the engine when braking plus it will rev quicker once it comes on the power band so it will also be less tractable and will basically have less bottom end torque.

You also need to pay close attention to timing because different units have different timing curves and it is easy to toast a piston with incorrect timing . To get the most out of a non stock type stator, it is best to have it dyno tuned . This way you can monitor the detonation if they have a deto sensor and you can monitor the jetting and engine temp vs the horsepower and rpm etc . If you don't dyno tune it, I would at least get a temp gauge and test with that . A tach would also help . With both items you could plot a graph and check the relationship between the two with different timing settings.

At least this is what Google search tells me. :lol:




I do plan on putting a PVL on one of my Tecates some day.

Why, do you have an aversion to traction? You will also kill it every time you barely touch the brakes.



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

[christph]

Ok, that explains why you only noticed a small difference . If you put an internal rotor one on it, you will notice a very large difference . It will also be much easier to kill the engine when braking plus it will rev quicker once it comes on the power band so it will also be less tractable and will basically have less bottom end torque.

You also need to pay close attention to timing because different units have different timing curves and it is easy to toast a piston with incorrect timing . To get the most out of a non stock type stator, it is best to have it dyno tuned . This way you can monitor the detonation if they have a deto sensor and you can monitor the jetting and engine temp vs the horsepower and rpm etc . If you don't dyno tune it, I would at least get a temp gauge and test with that . A tach would also help . With both items you could plot a graph and check the relationship between the two with different timing settings.

At least this is what Google search tells me. :lol:





Why, do you have an aversion to traction? You will also kill it every time you barely touch the brakes.



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR
AND OWNER OF A TRI Z THAT ACTUALLY HAS A REAR SHOCK ON IT http://www.mustang.org.au/forum/Smileys/smilies/hysterical.gif

Yeah, I'm aware that the small rotor on the PVL might create the opposite problem, all rev and no torque. The trick is to find the right balance. Penton does make different weights you can bolt on to the rotor. Regarding the Tecate, part of me just likes experimenting. I've done everything I can do to most of them without playing with the ignition. I also have an article form back in the day about Team Green's Tecate. This is when it first came out in 84, and one of the pictures shows them running a button-type ignition. I would also like a hotter spark than the stock ignition provides. Years ago I had a high compression dome on my 86 and at higher rpm the engine would cut out completely--it was like I turned the ignition switch off. But once the rpms dropped, it would start running again. I figured the compression was too high for the spark to arc. On a side note, that is why I run NGK's Iridium plugs, I find they burn better in high compression engines. Anyway, when I put on a lower compression dome the problem stopped, so that was my diagnosis. I'm thinking about putting that same dome back in to see if I get the same problem.