Rebuilding 200x After 6yrs

[rodeofan5656]

So i warn you now, i have alot of 200x questions.

This will be kind of a "duplicate" thread, as i didnt seem to have access to the Trikesylvania section until after the first thread in the New Members section...... http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/182049-1986-ATX200X-Build

1986 ATC200X- Ive been away for awhile. But I finally got the engine out and the top end apart. Found alotta slop in the piston with wear marks on the piston skirting and cylinder walls. Which explains the excessive oil burning and exhaust smoke. Ive got a few questions about this build, with hopes that someone can help me out.

1) i plan to go with a Wiseco piston, 10.25:1. Ive been told the 12:1 is known for destroying transmissions (?). JSR Performance of Wichita, KS can do the bore job for $45. Fair?

2) the camshaft, chain, and guides look alright, except for a shallow groove worn into the front side (non-tensioner) guide. Is the guide still ok to use? What should be replaced? Also, the rockers has some visible wear, on camshaft ends, you can feel with your fingertips. Should these be replaced? And where to buy?

3) bent rear axle and rigged axle bearing carrier I read awhile back about a 300ex swingarm swap, but cant find anything anymore. Can someone point me in the right direction? Or have any access to an axle and/or carrier?

4) cosmetics- i have a cut up atc110 front fender right now, and it looks terrible. No rear plastics. I also heard 300ex rear plastics will work with slight modification. Where can i find this info? And also, something about an old 250r front fender fits the 200x?

Thanks for any info you have! Glad to be back.

UPDATE: The shop has the cylinder now. They are boring the cylinder, ordering me a Wiseco 65.5mm 10.25:1 piston kit, and full engine gasket and seal kits all for $220 before tax. I highly recommend JSR Performance of Wichita, KS to anyone needing parts and service!

They will have my rockers hard welded later, and are full of information!

[rodeofan5656]

In the pictures, you can see the inside of the engine casing is cleaner than the outside! Also, you can kinda see the wear of the cam and rockers.

Another question- on the stator coils, 2 look to be coated. Is this normal?

237890237891237892237893

[Shep1970]

Hello, well it sounds like your heading in the right direction. You can probably get away w/not replacing the cam chain guides if there not to worn or dry rotted (lots of small cracks) but i'd definetly do the chain. Its a 100 link 25h-chain http://ebay.to/2hkPLUq its pretty cheap insurance.
Make sure to grab a engine seal kit too while your at it, the upper decomp seal is discontinued and doesn't come with
The kit you can buy on ebay. I bought a bag of thirty of them (just decomp seal) if u end up going that route let me know.
No charge.
Make sure your machinist orders 86/87 piston not 83/85 theres a difference im just not sure what?(anyone)?
The cam and rockers well you'll figure that out $$$. Search 86/88 trx200-- and fatcat you may come across a nice used set.
There's definetly more knowledgeable people here then me but i figured i'd put my 2-cents in...
Yes its normal--237894
Shep
Jeez- grab some new valves too..(ha)

[rodeofan5656]

Idk if its the 200x, but i saw a build about a 1982 200cc and the piston crown was dished. Mine is more of a dome. But i specified pretty hard on the year, and watched him find the part number in the Wiseco catalog. If its incorrect, its all on him.

Thanks for the stator picture, that makes me feel alittle better. At first i thought they were burnt

[arlaunch]

Here is a website for Honda.

http://www.powersportsdiscount.com/oemparts/l/hon/5053dbe1f870021c54bda950/1986-atc200x-a-parts

[rodeofan5656]

So i tore into the head today. Valves could be reused, but guides are SHOT. So ill probably do new guides and valves. Can we still get guides for these things?

Found what looks like grind marks from where someone tried to taper the intake port (?).

Also found some good info about the 300ex carrier and axle conversion.

Trying to get the forks out of the trees to have the lower tubes polished. Also gettin frame ready for paint. Not sure on a color yet :wondering But i dont think this will be a restoration. I think itll be a custom/rider. So itll be all personal. I like all black, but i want just alittle flashy. Cant quite find a color scheme i like

[Shep1970]

I'm pretty sure all the intake ports were chamfered like that at honda 237936
To give you ideas here's my sons a few years ago237937

[jeswinehart]

Logan, I believe you may have forgotten this posting from a few years ago (?),,,, sounds like the TRX fenders are a fit with some mounting hole re-location.
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/140367-300ex-Rear-Fenders-on-86-200x

When/if you get to the fender part of your rebuild and need some detailed pictures of my 2004 ( or 2006 ~ can't remember what year it is right now) TRX300EX fenders that I made into a trike by putting 83/84 250R front end on it,,, give me a shout.

[rodeofan5656]

Well crap, i completely forgot about that one. Its been so long, i googled the axle carrier and took me to an old thread i had posted years ago. I'll go back thru that one and see what i can figure out. But with the price of plastics these days, i might as well do the direct fit Maiers. I do like the round look of the EX fenders though

[rodeofan5656]

I hate to start a new thread for each question, cause they keep piling up the further i get into this thing. Like that fact i need valve guides and these are all i found. Hopefully someone who has used them will take a gander at the thread and give me some input

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Kibblewhite-Valve-Guide-HondAC200S-ATC200-ATC200E-ATC185S-ATC200X-ATC200M-ATC200-/282292813511?nav=SEARCH

[Dirtcrasher]

Yes, Kibblewhite is good.

[rodeofan5656]

Thanks for the OK. I was startin to get worried. Got one of our Recon guys at work to do a polish job on the lower fork tubes. Itll cost quite a bit more than paint, but itll sure look better. So it may not be runnin quite yet, but itll look purdy!

Id love to post all the pictures ive been taking. But uploading them as an attachment 1 at a time, gets old quick. Anyone know an easier way to add multiple pictures to a post?

[jeswinehart]

Photobucket

[rodeofan5656]

I tried photobucket on my phone and it went crazy. Started opening tabs like pop ups, and wouldnt let me login without adding my Facebook info. I just didn't feel comfortable with it.

[rodeofan5656]

Are all the steering bearings the same on all years of the 200x?

Ive got the engine about 40-50% apart. From what i can see, all the gears and transmission parts are good. Is it recommended to tear the entine engine assembly apart and separate the case? Everything rotates smoothly. If no one thinks theres much reason to go any further, i may leave it. The only things i have left to remove are clutch assembly, and parts to access cam chain and guide.

[x-rider]

I pulled my bottom end apart because the rod and bearings were sticking. I freed it up with silicone spray, lots of rusty crap in the bearings came out. I didn't want to chance it.

[rodeofan5656]

Ive got a full engine gasket and seal set coming next week when my cylinder is done. So i might pull it to look further and put the new center crankcase gasket in. It hasnt leaked. But knowin my luck, it will when i get it going again. So for now, i wont go about ordering anymore parts til i can open it further.

Ive had a barnett clutch for it since a month after i got it (early 2011). So theres some money i wont have to spend. Ordered Shindy valves, Kibblewhite guides, and a DID 25hx100 cam chain last night. Need to find a tensioner guide, mines wore more than i thought.

I pulled the clutch springs already, now am having a hard time removing the nut. Any tips on holdin the clutch still without a factory tool?

[Shep1970]

I've used a REAL copper penny one from 1982 or before( put between the gears behind,near clutch. You could also use a rubber
Strap car oil filter wrench. I think i have a few used tensioners i'll look tonight to see if there any good if u want.
Use a impact gun it'll spin right off(just make sure its in the right direction)
I think its a staked nut u have to use a steel point and bend out the little crease first if it is (i cant remember)

Shep

[rodeofan5656]

I tried holdin the clutch basket, but its the pressure plates that spin. The nut does appear to have been punched somehow

[Shep1970]

Use the penny trick in previous post, should do it.
Heres a pic of the notch at the end of shaft u need to get the dented part mostly out of it.
237970 a impact gun is pefect here.(to loosen)
Standard thread(spins off like a bottle cap)
The crank threads are opposite(remember that)

Shep

[Dirtcrasher]

Thanks for the OK. I was startin to get worried. Got one of our Recon guys at work to do a polish job on the lower fork tubes. Itll cost quite a bit more than paint, but itll sure look better. So it may not be runnin quite yet, but itll look purdy!

Id love to post all the pictures ive been taking. But uploading them as an attachment 1 at a time, gets old quick. Anyone know an easier way to add multiple pictures to a post?

Valve guides are no easy cheesey job. And once you install them, you have to ream them...

[rodeofan5656]

So they are left-handed threads? Righty loosy? Lol

And the valve guides- Manual says to heat head to 300* to drive out. Im guessin the same thing to install? Outta curiosity, what makes it so hard? We do this with pressed on gears in large diesel engines. Id kinda like to know what to expect before i destroy a $150 head :(

[Dirtcrasher]

It's not hard, It's easy with the right tools!!

Does require some skill...

[rodeofan5656]

So heating the head and driving them out with a normal punch is not advisable? Should I just get the parts and have a shop do it? That way if it gets jacked, its on them?

[350for350]

That would be the safest way. I'd rather pay someone who knows what they're doing than ruin my head.

[rodeofan5656]

My new Kibblewhite valve guides should be in my mailbox now. Im waiting for the call that my cylinder and piston are done. When i go pick them up, ill take the head and guides. Ive got new Shindy valves coming. Will they need the valves to do the guides? Or will they go off specs?

[Shep1970]

Just curious, what was kibblewhites part# for guides? Was it 30-4069?
I know thats the # that i keep finding and says it'll fit 83-87 honda 200x but when i dig deeper, that part# does not fit
The fatcat or trx200sx (same as 86/87 200x) So im very curious, here's a couple pics-kibblewhites first, oem second/3rd
238041. 238042 238043
Do they look different or is it just me?
I know 99% of the time when they say fits 83-87 the parts won't work on 86/87.
Maybe im over thinking it?
Did the mail come yet? Do they look the same. Stem hole size? Hight off base plate?

[rodeofan5656]

Theyre still in the plastic, so im not 100% sure. But from what i can tell, the only difference is the Kibbles are tapered on the cylinder side. Possibly to block less airflow where they protrude into the ports ? Yes, correct PN

[rodeofan5656]

Talked to a coworker in the shop that used to build race engines in western KS. He says as long as the guides are the same OD, the height of the seal end wont matter unless it interferes with the keepers/top washer

[Shep1970]

Talked to a coworker in the shop that used to build race engines in western KS. He says as long as the guides are the same OD, the height of the seal end wont matter unless it interferes with the keepers/top washer

Thats what worried me, the springs dont compress much but you"ll know pretty quick if they knock your keepers off.
Do the large and small spring fit guide same as oem fit?
I've never done guides, but i'll have to eventually get them done. I hope they work for u.
Im more or less thinking out loud through you, hope its ok.

Shep

[rodeofan5656]

Nah, its ok. We're all here to help each other! Just got the call that my cylinder is done gettin machined and my piston, seal, and gasket kits are here. When i go pick them up, ill take the head and new guides to see what they say

[rodeofan5656]

Had a real brain fart and forgot to take the head. Weve got an old oven at work we use for bearings and cam gears. Im gonna try to get them out myself, then measure them with a micrometer to make sure the OD is the same.

Im very impressed with the machine job from JSR and am excited to get the new Wiseco piston in!

[rodeofan5656]

Another update-

Heated up the head and drove out the guides with a roll pin punch. Intake slid out just fine. Exhaust took some time, and i had to throw it back in the oven cause it lost heat. I took some rough measurements of the OEM guides vs Kibblewhite with a caliper.

OEM, Kibble

Total length: 42.5mm, 42.75mm
Guide OD: 10.5mm, 10.5mm
Bottom of flange, to seal end: 14mm, 17mm
Top of flange to port end: 32mm, 29mm

From the measurements and picture, you can see they are almost the exact same length. The top will sit up alittle closer to the top spring washer, but not close enough to hit. The other end will sit closer to flush with the walls of the ports in the head (maybe to help with flow?)

The new Shindy exhaust valve fits perfect into the new guides. Intake doesnt wanna slide in, and i wont force it. I might try to install them myself with a brass punch, then let the shop reem the intake. Someone who may know more- will the fact that the ID of the guide is sitting 3mm higher on the valve stem cause any issues?

238102

[rodeofan5656]

So i blew out the valve guide O-rings when driving in the new guides. After a long loss of motivation caused by the hiccup, im back at it. Tonight i split the case to install a new gasket and check out the guts. All gears, shafts, and bearings look good.

Luckily i found and bought a low hour head assembly on ebay with good chain guides and cam. Its off the 200 quad, but same parts.

Im wanting to paint the frame, but am fighting the swingarm bolt. It has sat for 2 months with penetrating lube, so ill try to drive it out soon.

Sorry to leave you guys hanging

[Dirtcrasher]

Just roll it through by hand with 1 spring on and check for any interference with the valve clearance set.

Not so easy to see on the 86/87 head, sometimes I have left things nice and loose before I started adjusting them many times and just tried to feel the play with my fingers.

Are both valve stems identical to stock as far as length?? They gotta be for the eccentric cam valve adjusters on that head; Or you'll have to compensate....

[rodeofan5656]

Do you mean length of valve stems due to the fact that the angle of the rocker to valve contact would change with longer valves? If not, Im not sure what youre asking. But the trx200sx head i received looks 100% like the 200x head, except the decompression lever has a thumb tab instead of a cable connection. Rocker arms arent ground by the cam like the factory ones on the X. I'll still pull the valves to grind them with some compound and inspect alittle further. The head even came with spare chain guides, oil pump, and misc hardware. Score! Especially since now i dont have to get the rockers welded and redo the guides (though i might get them done for spares)

As of now, the crankcase is back together, cylinder and new Wiseco 65.5mm 10.25:1 piston are installed. The used head also came with an oil pump drive chain with alittle less slack than the original. So im gonna run it, and hope and pray that the slack is really OK like everyone says. New DID cam chain. Went to install the clutch assembly with new Barnett set that i bought in 2011. Noticed decent grooves in the clutch basket tabs. So im gonna do some filing tomorrow, then hopefully have the clutch side almost finished tomorrow night.248104

Please excuse my messy workspace. My significant other decided she didnt want an engine in the dining room. So i got moved to the less spacious laundry/utility room :lol:

[barnett468]

Someone who may know more- will the fact that the ID of the guide is sitting 3mm higher on the valve stem cause any issues?


Not as long as the spring retainer does not hit it.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND THE ONLY PERSON ON 3WW WITHOUT AN EDIT BUTTON OR A STAR :Bounce

[barnett468]

Heated up the head and drove out the guides with a roll pin punch. Intake slid out just fine. Exhaust took some time, and i had to throw it back in the oven cause it lost heat. Intake doesnt wanna slide in, and i wont force it. I might try to install them myself with a brass punch, then let the shop reem the intake.

1. How hot did you heat the head for installing the guides?

2. Did you put heavy oil on them before installing them?

3. How big was the hammar?


I wouldn't insert a punch into the guide. You can drive them in with a block of steel or bronze or brass and a 3 lb hammar if need be. It doesn't matter if the top of the guide guide folds over and closes up the id a little because it will reem right out with a tapered or straight reem.

Put oil inside the guide hole in the head also before installing them. You can use a q tip for this.



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR AND THE ONLY PERSON ON 3WW WITHOUT AN EDIT BUTTON OR A STAR :Bounce

[rodeofan5656]

I lubed them up with Lucas, per one of our "veteran" engine builders at work. Used a 3lb drilling hammer and the roll pin punch. The ball end of the punch kept the punch from sliding on the end of the guide. Thus, keeping it centered and keeping it from trashing the guide holes in the aluminum head.

I heated the head up to specified temp in the manual (300deg) to drive out the guides. They were tough coming out, so i increased about 25deg before install. They went in ok, but one of them i drove so far that it split the O-ring under the flange. Couldve been due to heat. But i didnt chance running it with a bad O-ring

[rodeofan5656]

Well..... i had the clutch and oil rotor installed and torqued last night. But then i looked down and saw the timing chain tensioner guide sitting next to the head on the other side of the engine :drool:

So tonight, i pulled them back off, installed the tensioner guide, and reinstalled the clutch and rotor.

Unfortunately, the clutch has been removed just one too many times. Now the nut cant be staked into the hole in the shaft. And apparently you cant get the clutch and rotor nuts anymore. No worries, i have alot of trust in Loctite 242 :Bounce

I got the "alternator" side clean and assembled/torqued with a new gasket. Waiting on a seal kit from JSR in wichita, because QuadBoss must think all the oil seals are the same on 83-87 200x's and 200m 200s trikes

[rodeofan5656]

Got the correct seal kit this time, but different brand. Got all the new seals in except the clutch release shaft. I'll have to grab my roll pin punches from work for that. Being a heavy truck tech, its tough to remember all the tools i need to bring home.

So im stuck for tonight. Got the head on and torqued. Cam is installed loose. I half-trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro timed it by finding TDC through the spark plug hole. But ill check for sure tomorrow for correct timing. So far its going smooth. The hard part comes later- finding the extra cash to spend on exhaust, rear axle setup, tires, etc.
248177

[rodeofan5656]

Engine is done and has MUCH more compression than the worn out cylinder and OEM piston. I think im gonna like the manual compression release though.

Now on to the trike itself. Im fighting the swingarm bolt at the moment. I'll need to remove the swinger and steering assemblies so i can get the frame to powdercoat.

I'll give an update at the next milestone! 248490