1983 ATC 250r Restoration

[brandonlowe2]

Took a gamble on an '83 250r that supposedly has a strong good running engine..... the reason it was a gamble is because it has no carb so I couldn't crank her up and run it before buying. When I purchased it, I was made aware that it needed a new muffler. Shortly after that, I was told about the carb. When I received a picture I found out about the cut plastics for paddles (why do people cut the plastics anyway?) and when I went to pick it up I was told about the lack of throttle cable. SO.... hopefully this was not a bad deal.... but, we shall see. The engine turns and seems to have good compression, so hopefully it is just a matter of getting the carb back on. I was able to locate an OEM '83 carb and it arrived and seems to be in good condition. I need to buy a carb rebuild kit because I don't have jet or needle.

Here is what we are working with.....

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[yaegerb]

not a bad deal IMO depending on what you spent. Its got newer tires and I spy a sectional expansion chamber.

[atc300r]

That has a 300 topend on it. The intake is aftermarket DG maybe you can buy new boot for it if that one is rotted or cracked. I think the pipe is White Bros. Tool box is 85-86 250r.

[brandonlowe2]

thanks for pointing out the goods guys.... The guy had taken it to a Honda dealer.... spent around $700 with them but he claims they put the wrong carb on it (some chinese carb) and he didn't like it... took it off and due to having knee surgery never got around to getting the right carb. The dealer put new tires on and did few other things to spruce it up..... I basically paid what he paid the Honda dealer (which he gave me the receipt from them) He said it ran fine even with the Chinese carb, but it was not like it should be with the correct carb. I will know soon enough.

[atc300r]

Your intake looks like it has an intake for a bigger carb than the stock 30 Keihin.You can buy bigger or smaller boots aswell.I bought a boot for a 34 mill carb for $10 brand new.34 mill Keihin from 85-86 250r work well with these 300r topends when you get them jetted. Some guys run a 38-39 mill carbs with porting on there 300r.

[brandonlowe2]

Your intake looks like it has an intake for a bigger carb than the stock 30 Keihin.You can buy bigger or smaller boots aswell.I bought a boot for a 34 mill carb for $10 brand new.34 mill Keihin from 85-86 250r work well with these 300r topends when you get them jetted. Some guys run a 38-39 mill carbs with porting on there 300r.

ah... glad to know I am dealing with a not stock trike. I guess the carb I bought then is no good to use. I will hunt for a 34 mill Keihin... thank you

[brandonlowe2]

This is the one I bought and was hoping to use..... http://www.ebay.com/itm/83-84-Atc250r-Carburetor-/131975314991?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=AHcdbUmfKLsfsjm1dAcAcreWoFQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

[atc300r]

You could get a new boot to fit the 30 keihin. The 300 kit was designed to run with the stock carb and pipe it came with a #135 jet. Measure your intake boot across the inside see how big it is in mm.

[brandonlowe2]

Ok I will check the mm on the boot and report back. I got a DG muffler to go on it.... the pipe I guess will work but man it is rusted out bad. I just ordered a carb rebuild kit.... not sure what jet it includes, might need to buy a #135 jet

[brandonlowe2]

This is probably a stupid question..... but because it has the 300r top end.... is it possible that the other "conversions" required to make this a 300r would have been done to this trike as well?

[atc300r]

The 300r kit is a bolt on and go kit.

[brandonlowe2]

so... would this trike in fact be referred to as a 300r?

[RIDE-RED 250r]

so... would this trike in fact be referred to as a 300r?

Yes. :beer

I would say you did pretty good, especially with the 300 kit. Trike looks to be pretty solid where it counts. I see you got a Kenda Front Max up front (good choice) and looks to be Kenda Dominators on the rear. Should be a good combo. I have run the Dominator rears and I think that while similar in tread design to ITP Holeshots they are a bit harder compound of rubber and not quite as grabby as Holeshots. Not a bad tire though for a sport machine.

atc300r: Was HRC (Honda) the only source of a 300 kit for the Air-Hammers? Or where there aftermarket kits out there as well?

[brandonlowe2]

Ok that is great.... yea, at first I was a little worried when I picked it up, but you guys have helped ease my nerves about it and I am looking forward to this beast now..... I have become friends with the guy I bought it from (same guy I bought the 250sx from) and I told him about the 300r kit... he had no idea lol. I told him thats probably why the carb he had on it was not working right

Yea I really like these tires... I can't wait to try them out. I am kind of thinking about replacing my tri-z tires for these (I have Scorpions on it and can't power slide easy, but maybe thats just me not knowing how to ride!!! haha)

Is this what I should be looking at? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-For-Keihin-38mm-PWK38-Dirt-KTM-250-250SX-250EXC-TRX250R-96-99-Carb-US-/291913662529?hash=item43f7690041:g:9rcAAOSwXeJYDXd y&vxp=mtr

[RIDE-RED 250r]

It's a darn good carb, but you are going to have a tough time squeezing it into an intake designed for a 34mm carb, it can be done, but it's not easy. A U.P.P. intake makes installing this carb on a 3rd gen MUCH easier as it is bigger and has a slightly different angle but not enough to throw it too far off alignment with the airbox pipe. You also need to get the correct throttle cable for this carb, no OEM cable on any generation 250r is compatible..

I'm going to defer to atc300r on whether or not that carb will fit on your trike as he has substantial experience with the Air-Hammers and I have virtually none.

UPP intake: http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/upp%20intake.htm

NOTE: The UPP intake is advertised as a better intake to fit larger carbs on 3rd gen ATC's and TRX 250r quads (the liquid cooled R's)... I do not know if this will be compatible with your Air-Hammer. I'm pretty sure that swapping a 3rd gen intake and reedblock is a popular upgrade on the Air-Hammers, but I'm not 100% on that so again I would defer to advice from atc300r on that subject.

Just noticed: the price on that new PWK38 is very cheap...almost suspiciously so... Most I see from reputable vendors are closer to $200.

[yaegerb]

Ok that is great.... yea, at first I was a little worried when I picked it up, but you guys have helped ease my nerves about it and I am looking forward to this beast now..... I have become friends with the guy I bought it from (same guy I bought the 250sx from) and I told him about the 300r kit... he had no idea lol. I told him thats probably why the carb he had on it was not working right

Yea I really like these tires... I can't wait to try them out. I am kind of thinking about replacing my tri-z tires for these (I have Scorpions on it and can't power slide easy, but maybe thats just me not knowing how to ride!!! haha)

Is this what I should be looking at? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetor-For-Keihin-38mm-PWK38-Dirt-KTM-250-250SX-250EXC-TRX250R-96-99-Carb-US-/291913662529?hash=item43f7690041:g:9rcAAOSwXeJYDXd y&vxp=mtr

Yeah, be sure not to tell him what that kit is worth. He will get upset at the price he sold it for ;)

[brandonlowe2]

Thanks RIDE-RED..... maybe I should just got for a 34mm carb? I didn't get a chance to get out to the garage and measure the intake boot last night... but I took a quick look this morning and I am not 100% sure its not cut... probably has to be replaced. A quick measurement with my tape measurer on the way to my truck showed an outer measurement of 2 inches on the engine side and 3 inches on the air side.... but that is a very very very rough measurement

Having to buy a new throttle cable is no problem because I will have to do that anyway due to there not being one as of right now. I am hoping to swap out the entire throttle anyway for a twist throttle

[brandonlowe2]

Yeah, be sure not to tell him what that kit is worth. He will get upset at the price he sold it for ;)

lol thats for sure!

[Onetrackmind]

If you buy an airstriker, Motion Pro has a cable with the correct ends for the ATC/PWK combination.


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[brandonlowe2]

how difficult is going to be to install this 38mm carb if i got with it? Also.... Onetrackmind which cable is the one you are speaking of?

[christph]

The 3rd generation 250R intake manifold will not work with the 2nd generation because the former comes out at an angle, whereas the latter aims straight back and is shifted off center about 1/2 inch to meet up with the airbox. If you want to go with a larger carb, you can use the manifold off a Honda FL 350. It is the same as the 2nd generation but accepts larger carbs. There are a few companies that sell billet manifolds, but they are pricey. You CAN use V-force reeds, reed spacers, etc. for the 3rd generation R on the 2nd generation as they have the same bolt pattern.

[atc300r]

With the intake you have just buy the new boot that has the 2 bolts in a 38 mill size.Just make sure the one you buy has same bolt pattern.

[Onetrackmind]

how difficult is going to be to install this 38mm carb if i got with it? Also.... Onetrackmind which cable is the one you are speaking of?

This is what I had to use for my 85R, but now I'm not sure if it's the correct application for your 2nd gen R...maybe someone else can weigh in.

http://www.eddie-sanders-racing.com/product_p/thumb%20throttle%20cable.htm

That's a cable made by Motion Pro, so they may have what you need if you call them.

The 3rd gen R throttle cable came with the carb top attached hence the need for a different cable. I see that the 2nd gen does not. I don't know if the 83 OEM cable will
fit the PWK, but it may be worth a shot.
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[laidout2times]

hows the compression? do you know if the piston was drilled for the exhaust bridge?

[brandonlowe2]

hows the compression? do you know if the piston was drilled for the exhaust bridge?



Compression seems to be good. I don't know about the piston.... I am out here working on it now trying to figure out where to go next

[brandonlowe2]

Here is my current intake manifold....

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[atc300r]

That boot looks rotted. You can replace just that part. Either call Mikuni or search online. I bought one from my local Honda shop and one from a parts shop. The one from my local Honda shop they had in stock.You need to make sure the bolt spread is correct.

[yaegerb]

x2...electrical tape to hold the boot together is a good sign its ghandi. Also, from the pic it looks like you have a head leak.

[brandonlowe2]

Ok, I will check on replacing just the boot... I pulled that part off and will head over to the local dealer.

A head leak? How can you tell from the picture? That would suck a huge one.....

[yaegerb]

Ok, I will check on replacing just the boot... I pulled that part off and will head over to the local dealer.

A head leak? How can you tell from the picture? That would suck a huge one.....

That top fin on your cylinder looks to be saturated in oil. Is it an optical illusion?

[brandonlowe2]

Yea I see exactly what you are talking about..... I will check when I get home. Good grief I hope thats not what it is or this just turned into a nightmare

[rgthree]

It the intake is 60mm C-C on the bolts then this...
http://r.ebay.com/30XTht It will fit a 38 with a bit of stretching

[Rob Canadian]

Yea I see exactly what you are talking about..... I will check when I get home. Good grief I hope thats not what it is or this just turned into a nightmare

Most part just a gasket I would think. Thanks to the keen eyes of the members you can order up the correct stuff for the 300R kit.

[OZQUAD44]

Doesn't look like nightmare at this point. A Head gasket, new carb, and new carb boot aren't the end of the world, and at 700 it is still reasonably priced, but I would carefully go over the machine. Since it looks like you may be up for a head gasket, I would Pop the head off and visually Check the barrel and piston before kicking this thing into life.


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[brandonlowe2]

Thanks a bunch guys.... I really appreciate it! I think I am going to send the engine up to yaegerb and let him do it right for me

[Onetrackmind]

Thanks a bunch guys.... I really appreciate it! I think I am going to send the engine up to yaegerb and let him do it right for me

I think that is a fantastic idea...he will definitely take care of you


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[bad to the bone]

Update on this?

[brandonlowe2]

Waiting on parts to come in.... got everything in but the carb. It "should" be here sometime this week

[brandonlowe2]

well... yaegerb has been helping me and teaching me lots of goodies about what to look for and all.... last night I finally got the cylinder head pulled off.... and ohhhhh boy check this crap out.... Got it pulled off... cleaned up.... the new gasket fits fine, but, check out what was under the gasket.... the weirdest looking tool mark (or something) i've ever seen....

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[atc300r]

You should lap that head and cylinder gasket surface before you put it back together.Those punch marks are ugly..

[barnett468]

maybe I should just got for a 34mm carb?

Depends what your goal is and whether that cylinder has also been ported, but unless you like to ride at full throttle and max rpm all the time, a 34 will be a MUCH better carb . Also, you do NOT need an uber fancy Earthscorcher Octojet carb with a parabolic slide made from prefabulated amulite etc . A simple, authentic, (not chinese) 34 mm Mikuni round slide VM 34 will work just fine.


PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[barnett468]

well... yaegerb has been helping me and teaching me lots of goodies about what to look for and all.... last night I finally got the cylinder head pulled off.... and ohhhhh boy check this crap out.... Got it pulled off... cleaned up.... the new gasket fits fine, but, check out what was under the gasket.... the weirdest looking tool mark (or something) i've ever seen....

Well it looks to me as though atc300r has also been teaching you a lot of things also.

I Googled all the following info because I have no experience doing any of this and read that those punch marks on the cylinder were added by someone by hand . It said that some people do that to help keep soft gaskets like cork and paper in place that have no bolts thru them but it has no benefit in your app, and if the edges of the "divots" have not been sanded flush with the cylinder, they can prevent the gasket from sealing properly which s why atc300r suggested surfacing the cylinder . The head may also be warped which is why atc300r suggested surfacing that too.

It also said that one can take a razor blade and place it at a 45 degree angle on the cylinder then push it across the "divots" as if you were trying to scrape a gasket off and see if it gets caught on them . If the blade does not catch, they may have already been smoothed/sanded flush . If it does catch, they should definitely be smoothed . I copied and pasted one method I read on how to do this if the damage is not excessive.

"HEAD AND CYLINDER SURFACING

1. Place a long closed end wrench over a stud.

2. Place 2 nuts on the stud so the stud protrudes around 1/4" above the top nut . Grade 8 nuts are the best to use because the threads on grade 5 nuts may stretch, especially if they are made in china.

3. Tighten the nuts together firmly using the wrench you placed on the stud for the bottom nut and another closed end wrench on the top nut.

4. Hold the cylinder firmly and turn the bottom wrench counter clockwise . You can reinstall the cylinder on the engine to hold it if necessary . If both nuts turn, they are not locked together tight enough and this can damage the stud threads.

5. Once all the studs are removed, get a couple full size pieces of 120 grit wet/dry sandpaper, a felt pen and some water or WD40 or similar product light oil product then find a nice polished granite countertop or polished marble floor tile . If you don't live in a million dollar house that has either of these, you can buy a piece from home depot etc or you can use a window pane but it's pretty friggen hard to surface a cylinder on a window pane . It's easy to do the head on one.

6. Once you have located a flat surface, clean the head and cylinder off with cleaner then place the sandpaper on the surface you are using . It sometimes helps to tape it down in the corners . Then color the gasket sealing surfaces with the felt pen.

7. Put some water or WD40 on the sandpaper.

8. Place the cylinder on the paper and put light downward force on it then rotate it several times then gently wipe the surface off so as not not wipe any remaining felt pen mark off and inspect it . Once ALL the felt pen mark is removed, it is flat . Once you think it is flat, repeat the process once more to double check . Do the same with the cylinder head, however, you need to put moderate downward force on it to get the paper to cut into it . You can also push the head back and forth on the paper as long as you keep it fat . The cylinder is harder to do this with.

9. Once both are flat and clean, reinstall the studs by applying light oil or grease and turning the top nut until the studs are fairly tight in the cylinder . If you have a torque wrench, you can use that and tighten them to around 16-18 foot lbs or use 2 lbs less than the factory spec if they list one.


CYLINDER AND PISTON MEASURING

You should get the cylinder measured front to rear and side to side around 3/8" from the top, in the middle, and 3/8" up from the bottom to check for taper and concentricity . Measure the piston for wear."



PREVIOUS KAWASAKI INTERNATIONAL R & D PROJECT ENGINEER AND ATV DEPARTMENT SUPERVISOR

[brandonlowe2]

(yes, I realize this is exactly the same way I started my Tri-Z rebuild post I just made)

Well well.... after 6 months.... I have realize one thing. These rebuilds don't happen over night! I have been working very hard (not NEAR as hard as the guys helping me, whom you will find out about in posts to come) on getting this '83 pieced back together... and in the meantime I moved, sold a house, bought a new house, renovated it, and moved into it. SO, its been a crazy 6 months. But, I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel on this build.

I will have more pictures, and quite a story on this one, coming soon... but, for now I leave you with this....

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[brandonlowe2]

and.... maybe this teaser.....

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[brandonlowe2]

Here is the rebuilt shock.... before and after.

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AND.... (drum roll).....


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[brandonlowe2]

And, I guess as long as we are on before and afters..... here is the swing-arm. Now, the original swingarm... we tried to salvage. But, it was too far gone unfortunately. I can't even describe what it looked like had been done to it. So, we found a replacement (that still needed some TLC) and it was completely rebuilt and powdered. (All the credits to who did the work is coming in later posts)

Before (original to me swinger)

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After (the rebuilt replacement)

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[magilla12]

Looking good.

[brandonlowe2]

So... just learned some (learn something new everyday right?) Even though they are both "2nd generation" The 1983 and the 1984 Swingarm are NOT the same.... We didn't find this out until our newly bought, rebuilt, and brand spanking new '84 swingarm was ready to mount.... and the '83 shock just doesn't work.... so, we have yet another step-back. Thankfully we found an '83 swinger and it is under way. You can see what the pictures that not only are the mounts on the front instead of the back, they are also spaced out quite a bit differently, which should mean (even though I haven't physically seen the '84 shock) that the '84 shock is different than the '83 too.

So, if you are rebuilding a 2nd gen 250R.... beware that the swingarm and shock are not interchangeable on both years.

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[magilla12]

Good to know, I’m working on a 84. 247591

[brandonlowe2]

Good to know, I’m working on a 84. 247591

Looking good!

[atc300r]

Sweet ride . Looks like lo-pro rear fender and DG pipe.
Good to know, I’m working on a 84. 247591

[magilla12]

Sweet ride . Looks like lo-pro rear fender and DG pipe.

You are correct, I’m almost finished, still working on jetting. Fenders are from Wikid fab. The mold came from an original Sundahl lo pro fender.

[ivan-083]

Good to know, I’m working on a 84. 247591

You boys wouldn't have a spare rear axle bash plate?


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[brandonlowe2]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180116/e180497b76808ba90cccc99019835d96.jpg

Everybody likes teasers! Almost done!


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[Aulbaugh]

That's looking great! Ready for the unveiling!