Green machine! Pondering an e85 build

[plevib]

So.... e85. Poor man's race gas. I always hear people rag on ethanol and I have too, but have never actually seen any evidence against it! I have seen green scummy carbs from ethanol, but I've seen plenty of brownish scummy carbs from gas! I've HEARD people say it rots fuel lines, rusts tanks, ruins seals and gaskets, causes infertility, ect.... but I've heard people say all that is crap too.

So I think I'm going to find out for myself. My 85 200x currently has a dg exhaust, xr200 cam and intake, a mikuni xr carb, and wiseco 10.25:1. I'm pretty happy with the setup, but I'm willing to experiment. I can always go back if I don't like it.

So my plan is, 12:1 piston, cooler plug, fatter jetting, advance timing. I also have an xl185 I might steal the cam from cuz they're supposed to be the meatiest honda cam for those engines.

I'm going to take the sharp edges off the piston to reduce heat build up (so my compression won't really be quite 12:1) as I've heard ethanol has excellent detonation resistance, but is prone to pre-ignition. Cooler plug will also help with that.

Expected benefits,
Cooler running temps, more power due to higher compression, cleaner combustion chamber and exhaust, cheaper fuel

Expected downsides,
Everyone telling me it won't work ;) haha....., less fuel economy


People's thoughts? It'll be a few months before I start on this but it'll be interesting to hear the backlash haha

[oldskool83]

just run fuel cleaner in your tank and put stabil in your tank when your gonna let it sit more then 2 weeks and drain carb. no more "fuel issues lol"

[DohcBikes]

Totally expected this to be a RubberSalt thread.

I'm all for real world experiments. Git 'r dun. Just be sure to be honest about your results, which means video of it running right for an extended duration.

By the way, how's that 500 running?

[RamsesRibb]

I wonder why ethanol would be any different than methanol? The only thing I see would be the fair amount of gasoline in the E85. Maybe that contributes to the detonation issue. Just FYI, a long time ago for s***s and giggles I ran a 350x off of straight Everclear for a little while. Not hard mind you but just to see if it would work. Well it did. That crap was too nasty to drink anyway.

[plevib]

Yup, it'll be very interesting to see how it works out! But as I said, this one won't happen for a little while. I'll start a build thread for that when it does.

https://youtu.be/ulBikrKXlQU

As for the 500x, it's running like a champ! I put a mikuni vm34 on her and I'm much happier! Easy tuning, no popping, 2nd kick starts! You can bog it way down and it keeps pulling (it does load up a little if you bog it, but I've haven't killed it yet), easy 2nd gear wheelies, you can Rev it hard and it loves it! I dragged against a 2006 scrambler 500 many runs and never lost. But there is way more power in that motor I can tell. Twisted's 350x walked all over me at devils lake speedway haha..... so first of all, I've got a xr600 head pipe I'll mod to replace the xl500 pipe I had. It's larger diameter and better collector design. From there I'll bump up the compression (shoot, depending on how e85 works in the 200x maybe I'll go 12:1), get the head done and I think it'll pull a lot more power out of that engine. I've toyed with the idea of removing the counterbalancer, but I've decided against it. It's not fast revving, but I love the torque, so I'll leave it in

[DohcBikes]

Thread titles have a way of gaining my interest.

What about this will be "green"? Because ethanol based fuels certainly are not. They require lots of waste to produce, and they pollute the air just as badly (some argue even worse) as any petroleum based fuel. Try to factor in before debating, that I live in a large state that is covered by 93% farm ground and has many ethanol production plants.

[plevib]

I wonder why ethanol would be any different than methanol? The only thing I see would be the fair amount of gasoline in the E85. Maybe that contributes to the detonation issue. Just FYI, a long time ago for s***s and giggles I ran a 350x off of straight Everclear for a little while. Not hard mind you but just to see if it would work. Well it did. That crap was too nasty to drink anyway.

$$$$$$$$$$$ e85 is only 1.75 a gallon right now and I the only place where I know I can get methanol is taco bell ;) haha....

But from what I read methanol is a better fuel, but is harshly corrosive to most metals, e85 is only hard on aluminum

[plevib]

Thread titles have a way of gaining my interest.

What about this will be "green"? Because ethanol based fuels certainly are not. They require lots of waste to produce, and they pollute the air just as badly (some argue even worse) as any petroleum based fuel. Try to factor in before debating, that I live in a large state that is covered by 93% farm ground and has many ethanol production plants.

It's because of the green it will save me and the green it'll turn my carburetor :lol:

[briano]

There's no need to convert anything. Just put E85 in it and run it. I've ran it in my non E85 truck, my 660 yamaha and a few other things with no mods and no problems.

[plevib]

But why would I switch to a %30 less efficient fuel and not take advantage of the high octane with more compression? That's kinda the whole point ;)

[RubberSalt]

Totally expected this to be a RubberSalt thread.

Weird, I expected the same LOL.


You'll need to advance the timing as the fuel burns much slower. And the only way to get close to petrols efficiency is to up the comp even more. Youll want to re chamber the head too.

The cleanliness of ethanol is determined on how it's produced. On average, it does burn cleaner. Containing 85% booze (if the pumps don't lie), it should burn clean. It doesn't provide the lubrication that gasoline does, by that should be fine in a 4 poke.

We've got a shop here in town who specializes in e84 EFI conversions. Their stock bore/stroke banshee won the pikes peak challenge some years ago on e85.

The do run a powerjet with their set ups. http://www.bigboremotors.com/

[plevib]

So my plan is, 12:1 piston, cooler plug, fatter jetting, advance timing.

Already thought of that

But that's pretty cool about pikes peak

[DohcBikes]

The cleanliness of ethanol is determined on how it's produced. On average, it does burn cleaner. If you want to help accelerate the demise of humankind as we know it, continue to advocate a product that perpetuates monoculture and supports a market that is a cornerstone to the foundation of a broken economic system.

[Jmoozy27]

$$$$$$$$$$$ e85 is only 1.75 a gallon right now and I the only place where I know I can get methanol is taco bell ;) haha....
Methanol and high potency methane gas are not the same.


But from what I read methanol is a better fuel, but is harshly corrosive to most metals, e85 is only hard on aluminum
Methanol is injected into oil/gas production wells as a corrosion inhibitor. Not sure of its corrosivity but I can check via SDS.

As far as e85 goes, it's basically non existent down here. Reason being is that the amount of moisture in the air makes it stale quite quickly. Alcohol absorbs water and gasoline vaporizes quite quickly. When the product sits for any amount of time, the gasoline vaporizes and what's left behind is a greater percentage of alcohol which absorbs more moisture due to condensation and what not and what your left with is crap fuel that destroys combustion engines. Pics below are from 10% ethanol pump gas. Yuck:banned:
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=233992&stc=1http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=233993&stc=1

With that being said I'm sure your area is much dryer and will likely yield different results. Guess we won't know until you show us. Just know that your results may vary if you ride in different geographical locations.

[wonderboy]

There's no need to convert anything. Just put E85 in it and run it. I've ran it in my non E85 truck, my 660 yamaha and a few other things with no mods and no problems.

The ideal air/fuel ratio (stoichiometric ratio) for gas is 14.7:1. For E85, it is 9.8:1, meaning the idea air/fuel ratio for E85 is less air, more fuel. Your truck PCM is able to make this adjustment and dump the extra required fuel and adjust the timing accordingly. The 3 wheeler can not. Running it with stock jetting will result in lean running.

Because of the extra fuel, most vehicles that can run either regular gas or E85 actually make more horsepower on the E85 and use the fuel faster (less gas mileage).

One of the key things done to make automotive engines E85 capable besides the PCM software to detect the fuel and make the calibration adjustments is to make the entire fuel system corrosion resistant: stainless lines, nickel plated spark plugs, etc. I'd be careful about leaving fuel sitting in the system for very long.

[RubberSalt]

E85 shelf like is atrocious. It makes me sad.

Going with a true e85 build would need to be looked at no turning back. Compression levels high enough to take full advantage of the fuel cannot run pump gas.

Once you cross that margin, you can begin to repeat the rewards, until then it's. A waste.

I've considered it many times. Once I figure out my squish band and the compression ill run, then I'll adapt a machine of mine. Until then, I'm running pump gas.