200X a little ticky

[Mackus84]

Title says it all. Fresh rebuild, top and bottom. Everything back together per Honda manual specs. For the most part lol. But it sounds a little ticky when running. Cam chain is new, and tight. The valve adjustment i suppose is the culprit. How excatly do you guys get the feeler gauge in that tight spot and it be accurate? Its hard to get it in there where it feels right. Even bent a couple up. And settled on doing it by feel with my fingers. Any suggestions?

[yaegerb]

you will have to bend the feeler gauge to get it in. I have a cheap set and I bent a 90 on the .08MM (.003 in) feeler gauge.

[Dirtcrasher]

Did you replace the cam chain tensioner and guide as well? They tend to lead to ticking as well.

Is the rubber plug in the head orifice to direct the oil to the cam?

Did you clean the oil filter rotor and not just the screen?

[Mackus84]

Did you replace the cam chain tensioner and guide as well? They tend to lead to ticking as well.

Is the rubber plug in the head orifice to direct the oil to the cam?

Did you clean the oil filter rotor and not just the screen?

Yes to all of the above. EVERYTHING is new or in place. New guides, chain. Oil plug is there. Entire bottom end was taken apart and thoroughly cleaned. Everything. Piece by piece. All the oil passages were cleaned and blown out with comperssed air. The only thing i had trouble with was adjusting the valves bc i have fat fingers, and even with bending the feeler i just couldnt seem to get the right feel on it. Those things are sensitive! I tried adjusting the cam chain and didnt seem to make much of a difference. I tried it by the book, and also by pulling off the flywheel cover and manually putting the tension how i wanted it. Valves, guides, springs complete too end is all new parts in the head. With the valves adjusting caps off, i can look in and all parts look well lubricated. That was the first thing i checked lol. Its not a loud tick. But it is there. Ill try and see if i can get a decent video so you all can judge for yourselves

[Mackus84]

https://youtu.be/jghDQdFFDX4 Dont mind the terrible idling. I have a crap carb on it now, XR200 carb and intake is on the way. Keihin PD97A

[Mackus84]

It sounds weird on video, doesnt sound as pronounced when you hear it in person

[DohcBikes]

First of all your idle is way too high. Are you having trouble getting it to idle slower?

Unfortunately from here it doesn't sound good. Have you listened through a screwdriver handle to try to narrow down the location of the noise?

[yaegerb]

It's definitely got a tick. Make sure you adjust the valves properly and for s&g's let loosen up your tensioner bolt again and see if there is some slack in the cam chain.

[Mackus84]

First of all your idle is way too high. Are you having trouble getting it to idle slower?

Unfortunately from here it doesn't sound good. Have you listened through a screwdriver handle to try to narrow down the location of the noise?

No, i havent. How exactly do i do that? And youre kinda scaring me. How bad does it sound lol. This things been rebuilt from top to bottom. And as far as the idle, i havent messed with the air screw too much. Its a cheapo carb until my XR carb and intake get here. I kinda just set it at 1.5 turns out and havent messed with it after that. The motors only been together two days after a complete teardown. Fresh bore, piston, rings, complete head rebuild(professionally) Im gonna mess with the air screw in the morning when i can run the bike without the neighbors killing me.

[bkm]

You have to get that feeler gauge in there and properly set the clearance to rule that out. Without knowing what the clearance is, you're just pissing in the wind with theories.

[Mackus84]

You have to get that feeler gauge in there and properly set the clearance to rule that out. Without knowing what the clearance is, you're just pissing in the wind with theories.

I agree. Im gonna do it now actually, i cant run it til the morning though so i dont piss off the neighbors

[Mackus84]

Should i set it exactly as the manual says? Or does any mods affect how i should have them set? I have 10.25:1 wiseco. DG exhaust, moose filter. Stock air box. Other than that its stock as of now

[DohcBikes]

Well I gotta be honest it sounds like your cam timing might be off one tooth but that's a big guess from here.

You didn't answer the idle question. Will it not idle slower?

Take a long screwdriver and put the tip on the engine then put your ear to the handle. Move the tip to different areas as you listen for the tick to resonate louder or softer through the handle. Its not a last word but it'll likely lead you to the area of the noise.

Just one of the little tricks I learned from faking my way through mechanical projects. Or maybe I read it on the internet and now I'm passing it as my own experience. Since that's the only way I really know how to help.

Don't obsess about the valve clearance. Set it and go, it's not rocket science.

[DohcBikes]

Disregard the idle comment, I see your edit.

What carb is it?

I'm talking about your idle speed not the mix. Way too high. Turn it down and see if it stays running.

[Mackus84]

Well I gotta be honest it sounds like your cam timing might be off one tooth but that's a big guess from here.

You didn't answer the idle question. Will it not idle slower?
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Pretty positive the cam timing is spot on, but ill pull the generator and check to make sure. And as far as the idle, when i lower it, it wants to cut off. Ive attributed that to the junk carb i have on there but i suppose it could be another problem?

[DohcBikes]

Why do you keep calling it junk?

Your pilot circuit is not supplying enough fuel. It is running off the main. Most of the time it because the carb is dirty.

[DohcBikes]

You have an issue. 'Pretty sure' doesn't fix things. Gotta be 100% sure.

Don't hope for it to be any certain thing or you'll focus on that and overlook other things. Or so I've heard.

[DohcBikes]

Make sure you are adjusting the valves when the engine is stone cold. If you adjust them hot they will be loose.

[Mackus84]

Why do you keep calling it junk?

Your pilot circuit is not supplying enough fuel. It is running off the main. Most of the time it because the carb is dirty.

The carb is brand new amazon $25 "200X" carb. One of the cheapo ones.

[DohcBikes]

Does it have a 17mm threaded cap on the bottom of the bowl?

Do you have stock jets from the original carb?

[Mackus84]

Does it have a 17mm threaded cap on the bottom of the bowl?

Do you have stock jets from the original carb?

No, and No

[Mackus84]

Generator timing230870
Cam timing230871230872 Looks spot on to me

[Mackus84]

It moved a little bit in the picture taking process, but its definitely on point for the timing

[Mackus84]

https://youtu.be/YJdBiWzC7AY valve clearance

[Mackus84]

And oddly, the intake(2nd rocker i moved) was louder, yet that one was actually a little tighter on the feeler. That was a .003"/.076mm feeler. Intake side is pretty tight on the feeler, exhaust has slight drag

[Mackus84]

https://youtu.be/ivFkAwHW3GE and last but not least, cam chain tension

[yaegerb]

Intake and exhaust rockers should have a slight drag. Adjust that cam chain tensioner more. That looks pretty loose to me, most new chains I have put on didn't have that much slack in them (from what I see on your video).

[86125m]

That is no matter if it is a cheap carb I run a Chinese carb on my 200x and it runs perfectly. Now did you set the timing with the advancer pickup. The best way to do this is rotate the engine until the arrow in the case is on the T on the flywheel. Then line up the line on the advancer pickup with the line on the advance.

Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk

[Mackus84]

That is no matter if it is a cheap carb I run a Chinese carb on my 200x and it runs perfectly. Now did you set the timing with the advancer pickup. The best way to do this is rotate the engine until the arrow in the case is on the T on the flywheel. Then line up the line on the advancer pickup with the line on the advance.

Sent from my KFFOWI using Tapatalk

Yes. See the pics above^^^ everything is timed right.

[Mackus84]

Pretty much impossible to get it all in on picture, but here is the cam timing. T on flywheel lined up EXACTLY with arrow, and timing mark on cam sprocket lines up perfectly with the mark on the head cover. The advancer was the same before i pulled it off
230874
And then this was with flywheel in the same spot before i pulled the advancer230875

[yaegerb]

Pretty much impossible to get it all in on picture, but here is the cam timing. T on flywheel lined up EXACTLY with arrow, and timing mark on cam sprocket lines up perfectly with the mark on the head cover. The advancer was the same before i pulled it off
230874
And then this was with flywheel in the same spot before i pulled the advancer230875


doesn't sound like a timing issue to me. I am still going with your cam chain is too loose. Did you replace the cam chain guides/tensioners with new when you were in there?

[Mackus84]

doesn't sound like a timing issue to me. I am still going with your cam chain is too loose. Did you replace the cam chain guides/tensioners with new when you were in there?

Yeah i know, i was just appeasing the masses that were bringing up timing. So i wanted to squash that bug by showing the timing. And as far as the guide and tensioner, the tensioner is new, the guide is not. It wasnt worn so i left it alone and saved a few bucks. So how tight should the cam chain be? I can make it tighter than where it is.

[yaegerb]

I would make it tight enough that there's only approx. 1/8th of play or less in that chain (side to side)

[Mackus84]

Ok with cam chain tightened and valves adjusted a little bit looser w slight drag the problem seems to have gotten worse. Definitely ticking lounder. I tried the "screwdriver trick" to listen to the motor and definitely sounds like its from the valves/rockers. I could be wrong but im almost positive thats the culprit

[yaegerb]

ok, then tighten the rockers down so there is less of a slip fit and see if the noise lessens.

[Jmoozy27]

What about the rocker shafts? They may be worn beyond spec. A lot of 1980's honda small engines have that tick. Pretty sure some came from the factory that way. It can drive you crazy if you let it. There is a few tricks that you can try to get the noise to go away. One is filing the seat on the rocker flat where it contacts the valve. It may have developed a groove in it over the years. Another is to just tighten it a little more than spec. Make sure that piston is at TDC. If all else fails just learn to tune it out.

[Mackus84]

ok, then tighten the rockers down so there is less of a slip fit and see if the noise lessens.

Ok, just tried that and its hard to tell. May have gotten a bit quieter. Not much though. One thing i did notice is that the rockers do have a little side to side play. Not sure if thats normal or not. I have another rocker cover, im gonna try that tomorrow. I gotta head to work shortly.

[Mackus84]

What about the rocker shafts? They may be worn beyond spec. A lot of 1980's honda small engines have that tick. Pretty sure some came from the factory that way. It can drive you crazy if you let it. There is a few tricks that you can try to get the noise to go away. One is filing the seat on the rocker flat where it contacts the valve. It may have developed a groove in it over the years. Another is to just tighten it a little more than spec. Make sure that piston is at TDC. If all else fails just learn to tune it out.

Haha, you posted about the rockers at the same time i was posting about them

[Mackus84]

Ok so the only parts in the top end that arent new, are the cam, and the rockers/shafts. I want this bike to last a long long time. In just gonna order brand new parts and be done with it. Everything is still available except the cam so ill go with a 2002 Xr camshaft. Gonna order all of it in a few days. I can find plenty on ebay but id rather have new than someone elses 30 year old parts.

[yaegerb]

or, put a webcams shaft in it, or go ballz out and put a megacycle cam in it. And yes, new rockers would be good.

[Mackus84]

or, put a webcams shaft in it, or go ballz out and put a megacycle cam in it. And yes, new rockers would be good.

When it comes to upgrading the cam, are the oem valves and springs capable of handling that? Theyre all new, but the are oem new. Not upgraded. And how much does one of those run? The XR cam isnt an upgrade, but its only like $70 bucks brand new. I just want a good running reliable bike. Not really concerned with going over the top with upgrades, unless the price is similar

[yaegerb]

I think the web cam's cam is a better grind than the XR and if you go with a megacycle then you get the added benefit of running a bearing on either side of the camshaft to reduce wear caused by the bushings.

http://www.webcamshafts.com/mobile/atv/honda/honda_atc_200_x_(83-85)_sohc_2v.html
340b should be good enough

If you go to megacycle you download their catalog. No prices though, you need to call them. I think their entire 200x camshaft kit with bearings, etc is around 250.00

[DohcBikes]

XR185/200 cams are in fact an upgrade.

Yes if you get a webcam you'll need to get different springs.

Why buy a cam, it's not the cam making noise unless the head or cam is absolute trash. Measure the cam bearing surfaces and visually inspect the head. Gotta assume you already did that.

200X' do tick.

[Mackus84]

XR185/200 cams are in fact an upgrade.

Yes if you get a webcam you'll need to get different springs.

Why buy a cam, it's not the cam making noise unless the head or cam is absolute trash. Measure the cam bearing surfaces and visually inspect the head. Gotta assume you already did that.

200X' do tick.

Yes. And the only reason really to buy a new cam is because that, and the rockers and rocker shafts are the only thing above the crankcase that isnt new. Figure im this far in, i might as well replace everything. Just for peace of mind. If it still ticks after that, im either A) completely incompetent with valve adjusting, or B) this motor just has a tick lol. I did try what you said about the screwdriver trick to listening. To me it definitly sounds like its from the valve/ rocker box area. Valves, springs, guides, seals are all new. Done professionally.
230888
230889

[DohcBikes]

Measure your rocker shafts with a micrometer and measure the rocker pivot holes with a small hole gauge and a micrometer.
Or just get brand new ones.

[Mackus84]

Yeah. I have a spare head cover and pulled the rockers and shafts and they were out of spec. Well the shafts were. The id of the rockers were good tho. Havent pulled the head all the way on this one yet tho

[yaegerb]

XR185/200 cams are in fact an upgrade.

Yes if you get a webcam you'll need to get different springs.
.

Webcams 340b doesn't require springs nor does Megacycles 143-00

[DohcBikes]

Ok. Personally if I was putting a cam in that had .080 more lift than stock I'd still up the spring rate. Apparently not everyone does things the same way.

[Mackus84]

Doesnt really matter anyways, im not spending 2 to 300 on a cam. Ill stick to an Xr cam that ill get new for 70 bucks.

[Mackus84]

Oh yeah, while i have both of yall here. Rather than start a new thread.What would be a good starting point when my XR carb and intake gets here? Its a keihin PD97A. 26MM... i ordered some jets too. Mains from i think 112 up to 120 and pilots 40 and the next two sizes up.

[DohcBikes]

112 and 40 will be in the ballpark. Shouldn't need to go any larger on the pilot, one size if any (in fact some run better with a 38 depending on your exhaust intake needle etc.) but the main might need a little more fuel.

[Mackus84]

There is a few tricks that you can try to get the noise to go away. One is filing the seat on the rocker flat where it contacts the valve. It may have developed a groove in it over the years.
JMoozy.... that the groove you were talkin about on the adjuster! Nailed that one dude
230900

[Mackus84]

The other one is even worse. Its literally like a mm indention into the entire end of the tappet. No way in hell they ever wouldve been adjusted right like this. You rock dude.
230903

[Mackus84]

Ok. I am very confident that the grooves in the tappets are the problem. Those pictures dont do it justice. The were very very worn right in the middle. Theres absolutely zero chance the valves would have been adjusted right with them like that. I filed them down carefully and theyre perfectly flat now. I was surprised as hell when i pulled the second one. It was bad. Again. Thanks guys

[DohcBikes]

You need new ones. They will wear out again. Glad you found it.

[Mackus84]

You need new ones. They will wear out again. Glad you found it.

Agreed. Im gonna order some. I actually pulled the whole motor off the bike so it probably wont even get run at all with the filed ones. It was crazy. Right where the valve was hitting was probably two maybe 3 times more than the clearance should be. Thanks for the help DOHC