How many Pistons do I have to ruin

[loganm]

Before I get this right. It's frust. Broke this one in strict, 3 heat cycles up to 200F and back down, warm up, first ride 1/3 throttle, 2nd 2/3, 3rd did a plug chop and it came up black.

Refreshing your memory; bike didn't run when I bought it. eBay top end, k&n filter on back of stock carb, no silencer, stock header.

Orig 152 main, wouldn't rev unless needle was all the way down. Verdict was bore is too tight, or didn't break in properly/warm up.

Put top end on last night, broke in. 145 main jet. Plug chop is black/ very dark tan.

Pulled the piston off, carbon on top of piston, head is black and oily. I was just going home from a short 15 min ride, the beginning of which I let it idle for 15~min, until cylinder was ~155 and not rising anymore.

Now, 2/3 times I've seized the top end its been at 1/3 throttle. At the end of my first break in ride today, I rode over to my house never going over 1/3 throttle. 3/4 mile ish. At the end of my ride cylinder temp was 280F! Which shouldn't be alarming EXCEPT it was under very minimal load the whole time, not riding it hard with no airflow.

I think it's an issue with my needle. Idling during break in the plug was still white. Running rich enough to deposit carbon on top of the piston really only makes sense if the main is too rich, since the needle doesn't come into play after ~3/4 throttle.

I put the top end back together as is. Not too keen on ruining another piston while figuring out jetting. Swapped the main out with a 140

[loganm]

229402229403

[just ben]

The needle is actually 1/4-1/2 throttle it's on the main after that.

[Jmoozy27]

Check the float height.

[just ben]

The piston seems to be in backwards as well

[cr480r]

The piston seems to be in backwards as well

Ring pins are facing the intake. Looks right to me

[loganm]

The piston seems to be in backwards as well

Directions that come with the piston state arrow goes toward exhaust side. I double checked when I installed that it is in correctly. You cannot see the arrow in the pic though.

Edit: I am going to try and take it to a shop to get the engine pressure tested tomorrow.

[Dirtcrasher]

You need to check your clearances. How many thousanths clearances are between the jug and that piston.

is your premix being a little rich? Seems likely to me.

[cr480r]

Running rich enough to deposit carbon on top of the piston really only makes sense if the main is too rich, since the needle doesn't come into play after ~3/4 throttle.

pilot jet/air screw up to 1/4.. Needle diameter is 1/4-1/3. .. 1/2-3/4 is needle taper/ clip position territory.. 3/4-pinned is main jet. Most fouling issues are from incorrect pilot circuit.. Often the inexperienced foolishly will drop mains or raise clips trying to clean it up.. Until it seizes out in the street.. Later selling it off blowed up.. Next guy throws on a top-end... Same carb.. Burns it down a time or two.. Sells it.. Repeat... Same deal with crankcase leaks. This is how smokers get a bad rep.. Failures are almost always due to lean jetting, or air leaks. Don't bother trying to jet a bike with an air leak.. Test it. Then start out rich and clean up the circuits one at a time from the bottom up.

[loganm]

You need to check your clearances. How many thousanths clearances are between the jug and that piston.

is your premix being a little rich? Seems likely to me.

You mean oil rich correct? Manual recommends 20:1, should be 32:1 in the tank now. I was told by the person that did the work that 32:1 is minimum.

I haven't checked the clearances, but it is the same size piston as last time, cylinder just got a hone job. I can check it, but I am POSITIVE the engine overheated. It was HOT. Temp gun read 300F on the top of the cylinder when I got back to the shop after it siezed. This was under light load. I'm pretty sure I'm chasing a jetting or air leak issue.


pilot jet/air screw up to 1/4.. Needle diameter is 1/4-1/3. .. 1/2-3/4 is needle taper/ clip position territory.. 3/4-pinned is main jet. Most fouling issues are from incorrect pilot circuit.. Often the inexperienced foolishly will drop mains or raise clips trying to clean it up.. Until it seizes out in the street.. Sells it off blowed up.. Next guy throws on a top-end... Same carb.. Burns it down a time or two.. Sells it.. Repeat... Same deal with crankcase leaks. This is how smokers get a bad rep.. Failures are almost always due to jetting, or air leaks. Don't bother trying to jet a bike with an air leak.. Test it. Then start out rich and clean up the circuits one at a time from the bottom up.

Everywhere I look and everyone I talk to has something a little different to say about this. It depends on the carburetor to a point too I'm sure. I'm not trying to blow off your or anyone elses information but when everything is contradictory I almost have to learn everything myself.

[cr480r]

I have never found tuning info to differ very much from source to source. The throttle positions are approximate.. And the circuits do have some overlap. Just be sure to have a clear understanding before you start making changes.. It's possible to have calibrations that will cause spooge and fouled plugs.. But also seize up every ride..

[loganm]

I have never found tuning info to differ very much from source to source. The throttle positions are approximate.. And the circuits do have some overlap. Just be sure to have a clear understanding before you start making changes.. It's possible to have calibrations that will cause spooge and fouled plugs.. But also seize up every ride..

Due to a lot (a lot) of trial and error in the past I know my way around a motorcycle carburetor pretty well. But I think you may be right I may be dealing with someone else's grenade tuning.

[Dirtcrasher]

Double even triple less oil is used now, but it's each manufacturer that advises the oil ratio.

Some of these guys run with a fraction of that oil from 1986.

[Maico]

I wouldn't run it again until I did a pressure check. Bet the ign seal is toast. No amount of oil or jetting is gonna fix a blown seal. Better check ign timing too.

[John Tice]

I’m only a cylinder person but; If you haven’t done this keep on reading. Is the cylinder round & straight? I’m not a mechanic, many of the other readers know the tuning aspect. Heat cycles? If the cylinder is round & straight, 2 tanks of fuel & a head re torque is enough for a break in.
First pic, the piston is starting to scuff.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/image-21.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/image-21.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5130102.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5130102.jpg.html)
The cylinder may need a light cut taken on the base; this will square the cylinder with the crankshaft.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P4260079-1.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P4260079-1.jpg.html)
Does your mechanic use a dial bore gauge?

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5290147.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5290147.jpg.html)
Was the cylinder honed with a hone or an Egg beater?

These are simple suggestions but what kind of tools does the mechanic use when they go to the back room to measure the cylinder?


:beer

[loganm]

Idk John, but the way this guy talks he really knows his stuff. I almost want to just have them dyno tune it. He went on a whole different tangent about oils and flash points and basically told me some oils are designed to burn off completely and some not at all, i didn't understand any of it.

Getting a pressure test done before I do anything else with it.

[oldskool83]

It may be time to let a good shop rebuild your motor for you. I go off the rule you can only mess up once. After that you need to do it right or let someone will better skills do it. Ive had shops split cases and rebuilt full motors for $200 and they were MX race shops...not over priced dealers.

Something to think about. If you did more then 2 pistons you spend more then $200 in "I think I did it right" work.

[loganm]

This 3 wheeler is literally all I have right now, if I can't build an engine right I may as well give up on life altogether.

I called another shop and he told me wiseco pistons are the problem, also he couldn't pressure test it because there are too many ports to plug. So I've come to the conclusion that nobody has any idea what they're talking about and I'm taking out a 3rd mortgage on my house to buy all the machine equipment to rebuild everything right myself.... Jk.

Seriously though, can someone point me to a pressure tester kit I can buy? Or, what all do I need to build my own? A plug for the carb and exhaust port, and a pump/gauge for the spark plug hole, correct?

[yaegerb]

This 3 wheeler is literally all I have right now, if I can't build an engine right I may as well give up on life altogether.

I called another shop and he told me wiseco pistons are the problem, also he couldn't pressure test it because there are too many ports to plug. So I've come to the conclusion that nobody has any idea what they're talking about and I'm taking out a 3rd mortgage on my house to buy all the machine equipment to rebuild everything right myself.... Jk.

Seriously though, can someone point me to a pressure tester kit I can buy? Or, what all do I need to build my own? A plug for the carb and exhaust port, and a pump/gauge for the spark plug hole, correct?

Too many ports to block, WTF?

Either build one yourself or buy a pressure testing kit from Harry Klemm @ Klemm Vintage. His email is below.

groupklemm@aol.com

When he made me one it was like 20 bucks shipped.

then go to an autozone and get an expandable plug for the exhaust manifold and you will have to get creative for the Intake manifold. if you give BKM the dimensions he can turn you an intake plug out of delrin. That's how I did it.

229417
In this picture you can see the expandable plug from autozone.

229416
In this picture you can see the boot attached to my boyesen ram intake setup. I then clamped in a piece of delrin turned by BKM and then threaded it for a sharks tooth. Then ran a hose to the tester Klemm made me.

And quit getting it honed. It needs to be bored with a new piston.

[DohcBikes]

This 3 wheeler is literally all I have right now, if I can't build an engine right I may as well give up on life altogether.
You need to re-evaluate your outlook. I can guarantee there is someone out there that has less than you do, yet still fights every day to get more. You apparently have internet access and a device to use. Be thankful.

Some people just are not engine builders. It doesn't make you less of a person.

[oldskool83]

Then give up man........save your pennies and get a more reliable machine you can ride then work on it all the time. Rebuilding bikes correctly is not just slapping in a new piston and rings and seeing if that works. At this point your down for a full rebuild.

[loganm]

You need to re-evaluate your outlook. I can guarantee there is someone out there that has less than you do, yet still fights every day to get more. You apparently have internet access and a device to use. Be thankful.

Some people just are not engine builders. It doesn't make you less of a person.

I'll give up when I've exhausted all possibilities and resources. At the lowest depression can bring me I still have a 3 wheeler that needs rebuilt and the tools and the resources to do so. I'm not taking anyone's advice until I do a pressure test at least.

I'm still convinced it's a jetting issue. It hasn't used a significant amount of trans fluid, if any, but I'm going to do a pressure test first, eliminating that variable.

[86T3]

Harbor Freight has a leak down tester kit, but it's designed for car engines. But, it has a pressure regulator, low pressure guage, and adapters to fit different spark plug holes so I gave it a shot. I had to put a shut off valve on it so I could isolate the pressure and it worked well. For the plugs, I went to my local hardware store (very small) and they had some tapered rubber plugs. I was able to find one that fit it the intake boot. For the exhaust you'll need an expandable plug. You can get one from napa, just get the measurement you need and ask them for a freeze plug repair. They're for replacing the soft plug in car engines without taking out the engine and putting a new one in. I'm betting your ignition side seal is leaking. Good luck

[cr480r]

Don't give up.. Sure you could pay someone and be riding but what about next time? And the time after that? Once you get it fixed it will be worth it, Even if for nothing more than the knowledge and experience gained along the way. With the information available at your fingertips, no reason not to learn new things if that's what you desire.

[loganm]

I have ghetto rigged a leak down tester. Took the carb off, plugged the intake with a large hitch pin (lol). Significant leak during the first two tests, right now it's holding 9psi with no visible needle movement. I have not done anything to it. What is ideal as far as time and psi?

[yaegerb]

6lbs for 6 minutes. 9 psi is a little high, anything over 9psi could blow the seals.

Where are you putting air in?

[JesseA420]

Significant leak during the first two tests, right now it's holding 9psi with no visible needle movement.


did u find the air leak when it was leaking with a spray bottle?

u need to use a good engine builder to do your bore and hone work. just because some hole in the wall ding dong does alot of talking that u dont understand doesnt mean he knows what hes doing. go to someone who specializes in 2 stroke motors, or even your specific model (whatever that is). contact someone like bubba ramsey, neil pritchard, or arlan at LED and have your top end done correctly.
what is this motor out of anyway?


put a silencer on it also.

[loganm]

Exhaust manifold. I'm at work, so I'm working on it when I can. I know 9psi is high, haven't gone higher than that.

I drilled the end of a cow tank plug and put a truck valve stem in it, pumped it up with a bicycle pump. Air pressure gauge is out of the spark plug hole. Pumped it up to 7.5 psi (15 psi gauge) actually unhooked the pump. It has dropped maybe .5 psi in the past 4 minutes.

[yaegerb]

You have an airleak somewhere. It should hold 7.5 all day.

[JesseA420]

pull your side covers and spray your crank seals with soapy water solution when pumping air into it. also check base gasket area.

[DohcBikes]

9 psi is fine.

It is likely your new port plugs that are leaking. You said it held 9 psi, but now its leaking again. If it held it held, if it's leaking it's leaking. Be sure your 'hitch pin' or what ever you got going on is not leaking.

[loganm]

9 psi is fine.

It is likely your new port plugs that are leaking. You said it held 9 psi, but now its leaking again. If it held it held, if it's leaking it's leaking. Be sure your 'hitch pin' or what ever you got going on is not leaking.

See that's what I thought, I tightened the plug up as much as I can, it's a VERY slow leak now. Working on it.

Do you think a leak that small would throw the jetting off to the point where I keep overheating it? Needle says 35F on it

[DohcBikes]

You need to measure your bore, or have it measured, as previously suggested.

Yes an air leak can cause it to run lean enough to seize.

[loganm]

I have feeler gauges I can measure the piston clearance with

[DohcBikes]

As John Tice, a professional in this field suggested earlier, you need to have your bore measured with the proper tool; a bore mic or dial bore gauge. If you want pro results you have to use pro methods.

[loganm]

I'm still convinced this is a jetting issue. He told me when I brought the first piston back that they usually bore it a few thousandths over on these motors.

I'm not trying to trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro on your opinion, I'm going to make some phone calls and do a bit of research. I'm going to look into having JSR dyno tune the engine, I'm curious what the power curve looks like, I can't find anything on the web.

[John Tice]

Someplace in here it‘s said that Wiesco is the problem? What is the Wiesco problem?
How can the best in the business be the problem? On occasion Wiesco had packaged the wrong set of rings; that’s all I’ve ever seen.


John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/49513-How-It-s-Done-Projects-around-the-Shop.com

[loganm]

Someplace in here it‘s said that Wiesco is the problem? What is the Wiesco problem?
How can the best in the business be the problem? On occasion Wiesco had packaged the wrong set of rings; that’s all I’ve ever seen.


John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/49513-How-It-s-Done-Projects-around-the-Shop.com

Local shop that I called said that. Makes me question their experience and abilities. The shop I had do the work has experience with these motors, told me a wealth of info. I don't think wiseco is the problem, I'm still convinced it's a tuning issue. That makes way more sense to me.

Don't overlook the small things, pay attention to what YOUR machine is doing. You can do a lot of things through the internet but you can't ride a machine through it... Yet.

[yaegerb]

Where in Kansas are you?

[loganm]

Where in Kansas are you?

Hr west of Manhattan. A bit of a drive from st l MO.

[yaegerb]

I lived in Lawrence and Wichita during my early to mid 20's. What town?

[loganm]

Abilene-ish

[yaegerb]

Gotya. If you feel like not screwing with it anymore let me know and I can help out with the rebuild. Shipping won't be that bad.

[arlaunch]

Also......

Sometimes i have found, it is just better to walk away.

At least for awhile.

[loganm]

Also......

Sometimes i have found, it is just better to walk away.

At least for awhile.

well ime... that usually leads to "screw it, I'll sell it for $500 and use the rest of the money I have saved up to buy something "nice."" Then I have another bike with loads of unfixed problems.

If I buy another bike it'll be something brand new, or a few years old with low hours. Or I'll be prepared to put in $1k+ fixing it.

[sledcrazyinCT]

Here is a chart that explains the ranges to help you finetune
http://www.3wheelerworld.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=229469&stc=1

Didn't see you mention installing new crank seals. There is a reason people keep bringing those up. Did you replace them when you did the top end work the first time? If not it is something you should really change out.

[loganm]

Yes, I did replace the crank seals. I had to remove them again when I replaced mains again while waiting for the second piston. When I sent the crank to CT racing I did not mention checking the sealing surfaces for grooves, they are grooved a little bit, but not to the point where it's consuming or leaking large amounts of oil.

First time I built the motor the ignition side seal was about flush with the case, when I was replacing mains, I managed to install the seal a little deeper. I'm not sure how deep it should be installed , I don't think I got it to the point it blocked the hole that oils the outside of the bearing.

The needle I pulled out of the carb says 35F on it, looking at needles for PE carbs that doesn't seem right at all, is it possible someone threw in a needle from a different carb at some point? It's a genuine Keihin carb, pretty sure it's the original, says PE on the side.

[Maico]

What year make and model are you dealing with?

[JesseA420]

Yes, I did replace the crank seals. they are grooved a little bit, but not to the point where it's consuming or leaking large amounts of oil.


you seem confused. there is no "case oil" going to leak out of your crank seals. the bottom of your crankcase is part of your intake tract. if you have any amount of seepage of 2 stroke oil coming from your crank seals, u clearly have a air leak there.
like i said before. pressurize like u did previously, and spray all mating surfaces including crank seals and case half mating surfaces with soapy water solution to check for bubbles.

then put a silencer on it and get it bored and honed by a reputable experienced company that specializes in 2 stroke service, or service of your model specifically. not your local hole in the wall machine shop.

we are not saying your jetting is not wrong, because chances are it probably is, but you need to cover your bases and get everything else up to par first, or you will never have a chance. re read all the comments in this thread, it is all good advice. do those things. after that you can start to try and tune it.
good luck.

[loganm]

If the drive side crank seal is leaking, it can consume transmission oil. You keep saying to take it to a reputable shop, but I guarantee if I take it back to JSR and call them out on their work I will get quite a lesson in engine building. It's not a "hole in the wall" type shop, these guys know their stuff.

Hell, I guarantee you, I can take it to whatever shop you recommend, bore it to the next size piston, new piston, fix the air leaks, put it back together with no carb changes, it'll do the same damn thing. It's rich AF at WOT, 1/3 throttle opening is lean, lean enough to overheat and sieze the top end.

[oldskool83]

I always take the cylinders to napa...they tell me what size I need and what overbore size is needed...then you pay then $50 to bore it correctly and your top end is done. Its that simple for top ends. Bottom ends you may want to redo...it's prob stock yet and well over do.

[yaegerb]

If the drive side crank seal is leaking, it can consume transmission oil. You keep saying to take it to a reputable shop, but I guarantee if I take it back to JSR and call them out on their work I will get quite a lesson in engine building. It's not a "hole in the wall" type shop, these guys know their stuff.

Hell, I guarantee you, I can take it to whatever shop you recommend, bore it to the next size piston, new piston, fix the air leaks, put it back together with no carb changes, it'll do the same damn thing. It's rich AF at WOT, 1/3 throttle opening is lean, lean enough to overheat and sieze the top end.

Seriously, can you "guarantee" us?

This thread, like most started by you, is all over the place. You NEED to start concentrating on ONE thing at a time. I still haven't seen if you have figured out where the air leak is coming from.

I could care less if your carb is tuned right now or not. Have you passed a thorough crank case pressure test yet?

[loganm]

I always take the cylinders to napa...they tell me what size I need and what overbore size is needed...then you pay then $50 to bore it correctly and your top end is done. Its that simple for top ends. Bottom ends you may want to redo...it's prob stock yet and well over do.

NAPA? That's got to be a local thing dude, I would get some weird looks if I brought it into NAPA and asked them to bore it. What do you suggest I do on the bottom end that isn't stock? Have a machin shop bore the cases for larger bearings? I replaced the main bearings and every seal.

I ordered 3 different needles ranging from rich to lean. I'm not just gonna throw them in and expect it to work. But the needle I have is not a keihin needle, I need to do some comparison between them. I'm guessing smaller diameter needle is richer, correct? I will get to working on finding the air leak this weekend.

[oldskool83]

WTF would you bore cases larger for larger bearings? You do realize most cycle shops and auto shops outsource engine boring to NAPA...You are understating nothing and I can tell. Walk to their machine shop and get schooled kid...... All bottom ends are gonna be stock but your OEM gaskets and seals are prob needing changed. You have an air leak and until you freaking address it and address a correctly bored top end your gonna just throw more hard earned money away. This is why I said take it to someone who can do it correct the 1st time.

Someone local go learn this kid.........Local thing...man your dumb.

[loganm]

WTF would you bore cases larger for larger bearings? You do realize most cycle shops and auto shops outsource engine boring to NAPA...You are understating nothing and I can tell. Walk to their machine shop and get schooled kid...... All bottom ends are gonna be stock but your OEM gaskets and seals are prob needing changed. You have an air leak and until you freaking address it and address a correctly bored top end your gonna just throw more hard earned money away. This is why I said take it to someone who can do it correct the 1st time.

Someone local go learn this kid.........Local thing...man your dumb.

I've been in the back room at NAPA. They have equipment to turn rotors and make hydraulic lines, nothing else. I've stated multiple times, they are not OEM gaskets and seals. I've inspected and replaced everything that needs it. Here's the website for JSR if you still don't believe they're legit.

http://www.bigboremotors.com

Oh and the boring cases for larger bearings thing was a joke.

This air leak is not substantial enough to throw the jetting off to the point I'm seizing Pistons. So that leaves two possibilities, bad bore/hone job, or lean condition. I have faith in the work that was done, it's far more likely this unidentified needle is the culprit.

[oldskool83]

That's not a napa machine shop. some only can turn rotors...it pays to pick up a phone or try google. so rip you motor all apart and replace everything fresh...hell it don't cost much for gaskets and seals. I bet your intake tube is dry rotted letting air in also.

This is my last post in here so after this I could care less about your problem since your a know it all it seems.

[loganm]

Intake tube is old and hard but it's not leaking yet.

I just got off the phone with John at JSR. He said it's definitely a lean spot in the needle, and that a 1 psi/HR leak won't affect the motor. Sorry guys, but I'll take a professional engine builders advice over someone on the Internet.

He said to take acid to the cylinder walls to get the aluminum out, and to go over the piston lightly where it seized.

[yaegerb]

This air leak is not substantial enough to throw the jetting off to the point I'm seizing Pistons.

wrong, yes it can.

[loganm]

wrong, yes it can.

If you have doubts, come out to Milford in a month and ride with me. I'll even pay your gas, and bring another member on here along if he wants to come.

[yaegerb]

Milford Lake? OK, I will see if I can get BKM to come too.

[loganm]

Milford Lake? OK, I will see if I can get BKM to come too.

I'll have my brother along too on his 200x.

[Onetrackmind]

loganm

I'm sorry to post in your thread without having anything of value to offer, but I am having a really hard time understanding your purpose here. I joined this forum to gain real knowledge from a VERY knowledgeable group of VERY helpful, like-minded people who love to give out that knowledge free of charge.

At first, it seemed to me that was your reason to be here as well...now I don't think that it is. It's very confusing. You have asked for help and insight several times, yet when you receive the very thing you were asking for...you poo-poo on the very people you were asking. Why do that? If you already have the answers...why even ask the questions at all? People don't like that.

Please do me a favor (even though you don't know me). Don't ask for help anymore if you are just going to blatantly disregard the advice you get in return. That will only make it harder for guys like me who really WANT good advice to get it when we really need it.

I'm not trying to be a di_k at all... I'm just trying to make sure that you don't ruin this place for the rest of us.

[loganm]

loganm

I'm sorry to post in your thread without having anything of value to offer, but I am having a really hard time understanding your purpose here. I joined this forum to gain real knowledge from a VERY knowledgeable group of VERY helpful, like-minded people who love to give out that knowledge free of charge.

At first, it seemed to me that was your reason to be here as well...now I don't think that it is. It's very confusing. You have asked for help and insight several times, yet when you receive the very thing you were asking for...you poo-poo on the very people you were asking. Why do that? If you already have the answers...why even ask the questions at all? People don't like that.

Please do me a favor (even though you don't know me). Don't ask for help anymore if you are just going to blatantly disregard the advice you get in return. That will only make it harder for guys like me who really WANT good advice to get it when we really need it.

I'm not trying to be a di_k at all... I'm just trying to make sure that you don't ruin this place for the rest of us.

Because I'm trying to explore all options. But when the general consensus goes against what my personal experience and insight of professional engine builders I'm going to go with what makes the most sense to me.

Don't ever overlook the small things. Something as simple as a jetting change can fix all your problems. Remember I bought this in a non-running state, with an oversized piston. I have no idea what top end was on it and how it ran before.

[JesseA420]

air leak is an air leak. that means there goes your af ratio. simple as that.

so it seized? i assumed since the only reference to the damage done was ruined pistons, is that u were burning holes in them.
what the hell make and model bike is this anyway? what does the seizure look like?

how are you going to go ride next month when u cant keep this basket case together long than 10 minutes each time? this thread really is all over the place.

if you eventually get your ducks in a row u should swing up to genoa for the jamboree. you are only a short drive. its a great place to ride.

[loganm]

air leak is an air leak. that means there goes your af ratio. simple as that.

so it seized? i assumed since the only reference to the damage done was ruined pistons, is that u were burning holes in them.
what the hell make and model bike is this anyway? what does the seizure look like?

how are you going to go ride next month when u cant keep this basket case together long than 10 minutes each time? this thread really is all over the place.

if you eventually get your ducks in a row u should swing up to genoa for the jamboree. your are only a short drive. its a great place to ride.

Look at the first or second post, pics are there. Think about this, with the engine turning 4500 RPM, there is a very large volume of air flow, a 1psi/HR air leak is not going to throw it off to the point it's seizing the piston unless I'm already running right on the edge of seizure.

I've posted this thread over at airfoolers.com too, since the site is dedicated to the 1st and 2nd gen 250rs with these engines.

[JesseA420]

lol. ok i thought about it. but your logic is so goofy im not even going to comment.
how does a pic of a carboned up head and piston top show anything in regards to diagnosing a seizures root cause?
im sure you will poo poo their comments on that forum just like u have everyones here.


at this point i think u are merely trying to troll. good day sir.

[loganm]

lol. ok i thought about it. but your logic is so goofy im not even going to comment.
how does a pic of a carboned up head and piston top show anything in regards to diagnosing a seizures root cause?
im sure you will poo poo their comments on that forum just like u have everyones here.


at this point i think u are merely trying to troll. good day sir.

So a professional engine builder backing me up isn't enough? Do you have any actual experience with tuning engines or are you just repeating what everyone else has said?

Running lean WILL CAUSE THE PISTON TO SIEZE IN THE TOP END, whether the bore is tight or not. It is running lean at ~1/3 throttle, I know that for a fact, so instead of taking the top end somewhere else so they can do the same thing, I'm going to make adjustments to the jetting. PM me if you have some actual data or experience to share, otherwise, you can go away, thanks.

[AK47KID]

Abilene-ish
Hey, my grandpa lived there before he passed away last summer. Curran was his last name, you at any chance knew him? He lived there pretty much his whole life and worked at the grey hound race track

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[loganm]

Can someone tell me what kind of acid I need to dissolve aluminum off the cylinder walls?


Hey, my grandpa lived there before he passed away last summer. Curran was his last name, you at any chance knew that? He lived there pretty much his whole life and worked at the grey hound race track

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Doesn't sound familiar, sorry

[AK47KID]

Can someone tell me what kind of acid I need to dissolve aluminum off the cylinder walls?



Doesn't sound familiar, sorry
Oh, okay just had to ask. Never know lol

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[JesseA420]

u dont have to tell me twice, everyone else already bailed on trying to help you. clearly is a lost cause.

its obviously not meant to be if i were you i would just go back to a 4 stroke. u built a 2 stroke engine multiple times and didnt even know what a leakdown test is.

seriously get it together and swing up to genoa. bring your buddies its a great place to ride.

[loganm]

u dont have to tell me twice, everyone else already bailed on trying to help you. clearly is a lost cause.

its obviously not meant to be if i were you i would just go back to a 4 stroke. u built a 2 stroke engine multiple times and didnt even know what a leakdown test is.

seriously get it together and swing up to genoa. bring your buddies its a great place to ride.

So, you've ran an engine with a minuscule air leak on a dyno, then ran the same engine with no air leak on the same dyno, with the same jetting on both engines, and compared hp and cylinder temps and EGTs? Because if not you're talking out your ass.

A modern 4 stroke has an engine and carburetor that are vastly more complicated to build and tune. I gave up on them for a reason: cost.

[NeverLift]

Can someone tell me what kind of acid I need to dissolve aluminum off the cylinder walls?

http://www.menards.com/main/paint/solvents-cleaners-removers/strippers-removers/sunnyside-muriatic-acid-1-gal/p-1444444212919.htm

Muriatic Acid. Dip a Q tip in it and rub it on the aluminum spot let sit for 5 to 10 minutes, wipe clean and repeat until all the aluminum is off the sleeve.

[Red Rider]

I just got off the phone with John at JSR. He said to take acid to the cylinder walls to get the aluminum out, and to go over the piston lightly where it seized.


Can someone tell me what kind of acid I need to dissolve aluminum off the cylinder walls?Uh, John might know. I would have asked him that when I had him on the phone.

[Dirtcrasher]

I have feeler gauges I can measure the piston clearance with


Those long feeler gauges are only for a rough estimate. And building motors well, that don't leak and trying to jet at the same time isn't real easy for allot of guys. Just go to any machine shop and it might cost you 25$ but they will measure it in many different places; A feeler gauge cannot do that.

Don't get ready to jump off a bridge, try to learn from all this and you have gained more than you had.

Always start with a rich jet if it blew up and a pressure test for an air leak. Thats rule #1 for a DOA.

If it were a motor that was tired and had low compression, you just send out the new piston/cylinder and they bore and hone to fit the correct clearance and those intake and exhaust ports should also be deburred.

A feeler gauge only gives you a rough estimate. If I had a .008 feeler gauge that fit in the piston and cylinder wall, I know it needs to be bored .020 over, because .010 is too close to .008 and .010 may not clear it all up properly. Hand the piston and cylinder to a shop and read whats in the box of your new piston if it's a Wiseco. It will tell your "bore shop" what the ideal clearances are; Wiseco might be .003, just read it or search the net. Cast and forged pistons also have different clearances. Liquid cooled versus water cooled may also require a different clearance amount.

As far as premix, read the bottle. Many people are hesitant to use such little oil, but this is 2016 and 30+ years have created new oils with new properties for lubrication. Lots of the ATC250R owners on here run what would seem to be super lean. But if you pull the head off their motor, it'll be pretty clean in there and no scoring.

And here's another one for ya; If you use more or less premix oil, it either takes away more fuel or adds more fuel. I'll be extreme here, but if you had plain 95% gas and 5% oil or 75% gas with 25% oil, there is less gas for the air/fuel mixture in the carb, and that means it would require rejetting to either more or less fuel due to less fuel from the carburetor and from your gas tank.

Lots of easy tests I do are taking the airbox lid on or off and seeing how it run. Lid off is more air and lid on is less, you gotta see how it runs under load and check the sparkplug based on plug chops, once it's gently broke in, because you can't use WOT on a fresh motor.

Most anyone can take apart a motor and do a so called "COMPLETE REBUILD" but that doesn't mean it was done right. As an example, if a guy wings it, a liquid cooled 250R left crank seal is not pressed in flush, it's either 4 or 5mm past flush or inner portion of that seal is still on the crank taper and will end up being an air leak. Just look how many idiots have red RTV all around the valve cover on a thumper. It tells me that I do not want that motor!

And you've proved you can put a piston in; Some guys don't even know how to do that. But when I had an RM250 at 16y.o., I thought "cleaning my carb was getting the outside spotless, I didn't know anything about jets. But I started leaving repair manuals in front of me to remind me to read them. And the way a 4 stroke works and why or a 2 stroke were learned.....

[sledcrazyinCT]

A small "air leak" at a crank seal or an intake gasket will cause the usually perfect fuel/air mixture in the crankcase to become slightly lean...sometimes very lean. This lean mixture can quickly result in a seized piston. Air leaks are, by far, the number one cause of vintage engine piston seizures.

Air leak fables
Setting the carb slightly richer to accommodate the air leak can avoid a failure...wrong! Most air leaks draw a very minute amount of air at low engine speeds. In fact it's very common for air leaking engines to start and idle very nicely. However when the engine is brought up to full temperature at higher rpms, the castings will begin to expand and deflect slightly in different directions. At these higher temperatures the air intake of an air-leak can become many times greater. With this huge amount of additional air, even an "over-rich" air leaking engine will experience a critical lean condition after only a few moments of full load operation. This accounts for engines that run trouble free for years at moderate speeds with a low skill level rider, yet seize in the first few minutes of being run wide open by an expert rider. No amount of richness can effectively avoid the failure.

Air leaks can be accurately diagnosed without pressure testing…..wrong! Uneven or wavering idling is a common symptom of small air leaks on motorcycle engines. However in the case of vintage engines, only huge air leaks will result in rising and falling idle speeds. The majority of the smaller, yet equally destructive, air leaks will have no effect on idling. Another common practice of finding air leaks is the spraying of contact cleaner at potential leak areas while the engine is running. If the spray enters an air leak area, the idle speed will increase noticeably. This method is useful for large leaks in accessible places, however the majority of smaller hidden leaks can pass this test.... In short...it's a total waste of time.

Freshly rebuilt engines are free of air leaks…...wrong! Even engines that are rebuilt by the best technicians can air leak. About 20% of all freshly rebuilt engines will have small hidden air leaks. That's why most professional engine builders pressure test every engine before and after rebuilding. Installing fresh seals and gaskets is by no means a guarantee against air leaks.

http://www.klemmvintage.com/airleaks.htm

[loganm]

I prefer to keep discussions in PM form with one person at a time. Some of you post without reading through the whole thread, which is just the nature of the beast. I want to leave this thread open for discussion instead of closing it like the last one.

I have a question for the experts; smaller diameter needle is richer correct? I've said it before but, this is not a keihin needle, I ordered 3 different needles for comparison, I have a feeling this is from a Chinese scooter or something. If I'm running really lean in the first 1/2 of throttle no amount of cylinder boring or leak fixing is going to keep the motor from overheating.

[yaegerb]

Smaller diameter = richer
Steeper taper = richer

[loganm]

I'll work on finding the air leak tonight, after I get the aluminum off the cylinder walls and clean the piston up.

[AK47KID]

If you bore out an engine don't you have to rejet the carb? I'm asking Cuz I don't know

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Scootertrash]

Dint take long.

229487

[El Camexican]

http://www.menards.com/main/paint/solvents-cleaners-removers/strippers-removers/sunnyside-muriatic-acid-1-gal/p-1444444212919.htm

Muriatic Acid. Dip a Q tip in it and rub it on the aluminum spot let sit for 5 to 10 minutes, wipe clean and repeat until all the aluminum is off the sleeve.

Yep, that one and don't forget to wear eye & hand protection and DON'T get a good breath of it, or you'll end up with a very sore throat. Be sure to wash the parts very well with water and dry afterwards (oil the steel) as the acid remains active for a long time after, even days if I recall.

[Scootertrash]

OP: Do you have a repair manual for this machine?

[El Camexican]

If you bore out an engine don't you have to rejet the carb? I'm asking Cuz I don't know

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Technically on a 2 stroke if you want your engine to run as well as it did before the bore you need to match the heights of your ports to what they were before the bore, so whether you do that or not you should still check your jetting after you break it in.

Another (and much more important) thing about proper jetting is that it is related to the content of oxygen in the volume of air passing through the engine at any given moment more so than any other factor. An example would be that today is 80F and you're heading up the mountains with your buddies. You find that your engine seems down on power. Next weekend you run out to the coast to ride in the sand and a cold front comes in. Your trike seems feels like it's on the bottle when you hit the power band even though you haven't touched a thing and your still using last weeks pre-mix.

The reason would be that you were jetted rich on the warm high altitude ride and NEAR perfect for the cool sea level ride. Now the scary part... THERE'S NO SUCH THINK AS PERFECT JETTING on a carburetor. But don't be scared. As long as everything else is good (no air leaks) and you aren't dedicated to 5 minute wide open uphill blasts or sub sea level air conditions your stock jetting should be fine for your otherwise stock engine after it's been bored. Keep in mind that your air/fuel screw is in effect an adjustable jet that you can play with at any time right on the trail.

The reason being that "close" jetting" is usually safe within 2,000' of corrected altitude change and almost every two stroke ever made (other than a few big bores) was overly rich to start with.

If you're planning to mess wit your jetting pull what you have in your carb and buy 2 sizes in both directions of the pilot and the main then read up on tuning and play with it. The rewards of proper jetting are better than adding a pipe, or adding fiber reeds, but be warned, power is addictive and it's hard to stop messing with jets once you get a taste of that power.

[loganm]

OP: Do you have a repair manual for this machine?

Even better, a service manual. In PDF form.

[loganm]

229488229489

Pics of carnage. Went over the hot spots with some emery cloth, smoothed out the edges at oscarmayers suggestion.

Cylinder still has cross-hatching in it. Definitely not in it for the long run, but I should be able to get some rides/tuning out of it.

Yeah if I had the access to a machine shop I'd have the case halves checked for flatness and blueprinted, every mating surface machined, hell stroker crank and port work done to it. Financially it just is not a feasible thing, at that point may as well buy a brand new machine.

[JesseA420]

Even better

nope. same thing. LOL

just checked out your posting history to see if all your other threads are as goofy as this one. was not disappointed. keep up the good work.

http://i.imgur.com/DjvdhSE.gif

[loganm]

Wrong. It's a factory service manual, which is MILES better than any Clymer POS.

Source: Anyone who's been turning a wrench for more than a day knows this.

[Scootertrash]

Funny thing, I have a Clymer or Haynes out in the garage for quick reference since I don't always have my tablet with me in the shop and it's done just fine for me :wondering

The tolerances and specs are the same in both. What more do you want?

Obviously the SERVICE MANUAL, (not the repair manual) isn't doing you any good, as well as having a "professional" shop do your machine work for you.

You bought a machine in rough shape, then:
You say you cleaned the carb, but yet you didn't verify the needle while apart? But you say you know your way around a carburetor?

Did your machinist have the piston when he bored the cylinder? If not, big mistake.

You force an "almost the same, but different" crank bearing into the case? Here's a ProTip for you: If an OEM bearing is not available, take the bearing to a bearing shop, they'll measure it and find you the right one.

You're dead set that there's an air leak, but you haven't even verified you have the proper components in your carb.

Whomever told you Wiseco was the problem is FOS. I use Wiseco exclusively and have had zero problems in my 40 or so years of wrenching. I have them in everything, or have put them in everything from atvs to snowmobiles to Harleys. Including when under the influence of a multitude if alterants when I was younger and dumber.

This whole fiasco with this build is ridiculous. You come here asking for help, then ignore the basics that are offered up by members here who have far more experience building motors than you.

Go back to square one:

If they didn't bore the cylinder to match the piston, take it back and have them fix it or find someone else to do it.

Make sure you have the proper carb, needle and jets for STOCK, or find out what they are and use that as a starting point for your jetting.

Read this thread: http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/55086-Carb-Jetting-101-Terms-Tips-and-Jetting-Theory

Now, if you'll excuse me I have a transmsission out of a 1976 Harley FLH I need to tear apart. No dead blow hammers will be used in it's disassembly/reassembly

[loganm]

Funny thing, I have a Clymer or Haynes out in the garage for quick reference since I don't always have my tablet with me in the shop and it's done just fine for me :wondering

The tolerances and specs are the same in both. What more do you want?

Obviously the SERVICE MANUAL, (not the repair manual) aren't doing you any good, as well as having a "professional" shop do your machine work for you.

you bought a machine in rough shape, then:
You say you cleaned the carb, but yet you didn't verify the needle while apart? But you say you know your way around a carburetor?

Did your machinist have the piston when he bored the cylinder? If not, big mistake.

You force an "almost the same, but different" crank bearing into the case? Here's a ProTip for you: If an OEM bearing is not available, take the bearing to a bearing shop, they'll measure it and find you the right one.

You're dead set that there's an air leak, but you haven't even verified you have the proper components in your carb.

Whomever told you Wiseco was the problem is FOS. I use Wiseco exclusively and have had zero problems in my 40 or so years of wrenching. I have them in everything, or have put them in everything from atvs to snowmobiles to Harleys. Including when under the influence of a multitude if alterants when I was younger and dumber.

This whole fiasco with this build is ridiculous. You come here asking for help, then ignore the basics that are offered up by members here who have far more experience building motors than you.

Go back to square one:

If they didn't bore the cylinder to match the piston, take it back and have them fix it or find someone else to do it.

Make sure you have the proper carb, needle and jets for STOCK, or find out what they are and use that as a starting point for your jetting.

Read this thread: http://www.3wheelerworld.com/showthread.php/55086-Carb-Jetting-101-Terms-Tips-and-Jetting-Theory

Now, if you'll excuse me I have a transmsission out of a 1976 Harley FLH I need to tear apart. No dead blow hammers will be used in it's disassembly/reassembly

Verify the needle with what? What do I have to work with? Nothing. I got this machine not running. You're making a whole lot of assumptions, a lot of which is common sense stuff I addressed before ever making a thread.

FYI, I did not force any crank bearings into the case. The right side main shaft bearing is a "boutique" bearing commissioned by Honda and Yamaha. While the rest are readily available from bearing manufacturers, this one is not. Do some damn research before you post.

The machine shop bored and honed the cylinder to size with the piston, in fact they ordered it for me, I never saw it until picking it up. "Stock" jetting doesn't mean anything, especially on a 30 year old machine. Every machine is different for one, location (elevation, temperatures, humidity) have a lot to do with it.

Good luck on your Harley. It's dinosaur tech, so you shouldn't have a problem.

Edit: where are you even getting that I'm "dead set there's an air leak"? For the past two pages I've been saying I think it's the jetting. Also, I've read through that whole jetting article on another site.

Wrong about the plug chops, it can be black and still run lean, or white but still be fat. It depends on the oil, flash point, designed to burn off, etc.

[tripledog]

I think someone piston my corn flakes.

[Mr. Clean]

I think you will ruin 57 pistons.

[onformula1]

I think you will ruin 57 pistons.

I wonder why you picked that number? :lol:

[Scootertrash]

I think someone piston my corn flakes.

That has a nice ring to it. Kinda groovy too.

[tripledog]

That has a nice ring to it. Kinda groovy too.

You guys must be pulling my crank.

[loganm]

This is probably my fault for assuming (against my better judgement) that everything in the carb was stock. Granted this 3 wheeler had less stupid/hack stuff done to it than stuff I usually buy hammer

[tripledog]

I think you will ruin 57 pistons.

I think you are being overly optimistic.

[loganm]

Since the threads already gone to trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro... I'm gonna turn this needle down with a drill and emery cloth. Worst I can do is ruin the needle or sieze the top end again... Lol

[AK47KID]

I'd part the whole thing out and sell it and use that money to buy something better 2,3 or 4 wheels...

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[Scootertrash]

Verify the needle with what? What do I have to work with? Nothing. I got this machine not running. You're making a whole lot of assumptions, a lot of which is common sense stuff I addressed before ever making a thread.

Well, I found 1 NOS needle on ebay. Not sure if it would work for your trike tho. YOU'D have to do some damn research to figure that out. Then you would know what you were dealing with needle-wise. The needle is WAY cheaper than a piston.


FYI, I did not force any crank bearings into the case.
You said the bearing didn't fit properly even after heating the case and cooling the bearing, so you used a dead blow hammer


The right side main shaft bearing is a "boutique" bearing commissioned by Honda and Yamaha. While the rest are readily available from bearing manufacturers, this one is not. Do some damn research before you post.

Boutique bearing? Did you pick it up when you were getting your nails done?

I was able to find EVERY transmission bearing on ebay except the clutch lifter bearing, and if I had that bearing in hand I bet I could find one. If they're on ebay, a bearing shop would have it or be able to get it. Do some damn research before you post.


The machine shop bored and honed the cylinder to size with the piston, in fact they ordered it for me, I never saw it until picking it up.
Good. Well then I guess one thing got done right , huh?


"Stock" jetting doesn't mean anything, especially on a 30 year old machine. Every machine is different for one, location (elevation, temperatures, humidity) have a lot to do with it.

Yea, it does. If it didn't matter why would they put it in the repair, oops! SERVICE manual then? It gives you a starting point Einstein. Use it. If you did a little damn research you'd know what you have for choices on jets. It didn't take me long to figure it out. Every machine/situation is different? No sh!t Sherlock! Captain Obvious would like to meet you.


Good luck on your Harley. It's dinosaur tech, so you shouldn't have a problem.

C'mon Princess, that's the best you got? The "Old Guy Insult"? Pansy! I've been called worse by better. Interestingly that transmission related dinosaur tech kicked your azz didn't it? Same tech that's be used in manual transmissions since well before you were born and is still in use today. But I'm sure you know your way around a tranny too doncha?


Edit: where are you even getting that I'm "dead set there's an air leak"? For the past two pages I've been saying I think it's the jetting.

Oh, I don't know.The droning on and on about the leak down testing maybe. Make sure your intake and exhaust connections, boots, etc, are good, do your pressure test to be sure, then figure out your jetting already.


Also, I've read through that whole jetting article on another site.

Maybe you should read it again?

If nothing else, you may get good at it. They say practice makes perfect. ;)

[sledcrazyinCT]

Since the threads already gone to trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro... I'm gonna turn this needle down with a drill and emery cloth. Worst I can do is ruin the needle or sieze the top end again... Lol
now that is some fine tuning that might help you��

[Scootertrash]

You guys must be pulling my crank.

I don't know if this has any bearing or not, but that's AK47KID's thread. You better keep a firm grip on your rod tho ;)

[Scootertrash]

You guys must be pulling my crank.

I don't know if this has any bearing or not, but that's AK47KID's thread. You better keep a firm grip on your rod tho ;)

[tripledog]

I don't know if this has any bearing or not, but that's AK47KID's thread. You better keep a firm grip on your rod tho ;)

Enough of the needling, already. Whatever.

[86T3]

Exhaust manifold. I'm at work, so I'm working on it when I can. I know 9psi is high, haven't gone higher than that.

I drilled the end of a cow tank plug and put a truck valve stem in it, pumped it up with a bicycle pump. Air pressure gauge is out of the spark plug hole. Pumped it up to 7.5 psi (15 psi gauge) actually unhooked the pump. It has dropped maybe .5 psi in the past 4 minutes.

This is a significant air leak. Once you get the motor together, before you do anything to the carb, you need to throw your pressure tester back on and see where this leak is coming from. Spray soapy water on all your plugs and guage. If they're all holding air then you need to look at your carb boot, crank seals, head and base gaskets. Don't mess with anything until you do this. It's not optional, it's a must. Every thing you're saying is pointing to an air leak. 300 degrees is not even approaching overheating on an air cooled motor (I'm assuming this is an air cooled 250r, you never mentioned it in the thread). I repeat, leak test leak test leak test, and once again, leak test

[Scootertrash]

Since the threads already gone to trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro... I'm gonna turn this needle down with a drill and emery cloth. Worst I can do is ruin the needle or sieze the top end again... Lol

It just keeps gettin better!

229497

[loganm]

Well, I found 1 NOS needle on ebay. Not sure if it would work for your trike tho. YOU'D have to do some damn research to figure that out. Then you would know what you were dealing with needle-wise. The needle is WAY cheaper than a piston.


You said the bearing didn't fit properly even after heating the case and cooling the bearing, so you used a dead blow hammer

NOS needle? You do realize you can buy brand new Keihin needles right? Even a brand new carb, the same model that was used on these trikes.

I made a lot of assumptions, obviously assuming that the jetting was anything close to useable on a trike that I bought in non-running condition was not the best of them.

It was not a crank bearing. Forcing that bearing in was not in any way ideal, I was stumped with what to do at the time, and already stressed out enough over other things. Again, my mistake, no sense in calling me out on it now. Transmission is put together as it should be, thrust washers in the correct places, shifts through all the gears. I do have my doubts about it, using a bearing that is not OEM for one, not replacing every bearing with a brand new one, shift forks with irregular wear due to past mistakes, etc.

I mentioned it before, I already bought 3 different sized needles ranging from rich to lean. Going to use that as a starting point before i do anything else. Everyone in this thread kept pushing pressure testing is why I was posting about it, FYI.

[AK47KID]

HOLD ON LET ME COOK SOME POP CORN FOR THIS SHOW

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[onformula1]

Well, 8 pages- 108 replies- 1,909 views and it still runs the same as the day he bought it.....I wonder why???

[tripledog]

Well, 8 pages- 108 replies- 1,909 views and it still runs the same as the day he bought it.....I wonder why???

You mean why it even runs?

[yaegerb]

Well, 8 pages- 108 replies- 1,909 views and it still runs the same as the day he bought it.....I wonder why???

You beat me to it!

[loganm]

Well, 8 pages- 108 replies- 1,909 views and it still runs the same as the day he bought it.....I wonder why???

Nono, it didn't run when I bought it. Every time I've torn it back apart it wasn't because it didn't stop running.

You guys have no faith.

[onformula1]

You mean why it even runs?

No it's still a basket case.

[AK47KID]

I don't know if this has any bearing or not, but that's AK47KID's thread. You better keep a firm grip on your rod tho ;)
My thread? What thread? This thread?http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160325/508f463e8c0aaab4e8c19d3220acde4a.jpg

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[tripledog]

Nono, it didn't run when I bought it. Every time I've torn it back apart it wasn't because it didn't stop running.

You guys have no faith.

I had Faith. She wasn't as good as the ad on bathroom wall lead me to believe. Also, she was blind. And what's the deal with the pasties, anyway?

[onformula1]

I had Faith. She wasn't as good as the ad on bathroom wall lead me to believe. Also, she was blind. And what's the deal with the pasties, anyway?

You maybe getting close to needing--Subtitles. :lol:

[Maico]

By the looks of the piston...you have a 4 corner seizure.

Look up the causes.

[Mosh]

Man, I have absolutely refrained from posting in this, because it seems like anything that is said either A) goes completely into the I Know everything, Ignore category or
B) is an absolute attempt at derailing a thread further into the caticasim of confusion and uselessness.
If barnett had stumbled into this it would have been 128 pages by now. I guess so far, this is the only positive this had going for it.
Now having interjected my worthless smart ass comments and opinions...

I have assmebled too many engines to count, cars, cycles atvs 2 strokes and 4 strokes.
I have never, I repeat never had to hook up a bunch of leak down crap....ever
If you dont know the symptoms of a vacumm leak by the way the machine runs, you probably should not be building engines, plain and simple. And to be honest, when trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro is assembled correctly, step by step of the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro service manual, not by opinions of internet sepculation, using the proper tools, there is about a .000002 % chance you would ever have a air leak.

Now I have fought issues that are straight up crazy, and asked questions to knowledgeable people, and took the info, applied it, and learned something, either good or bad. There are issues out there, that some just need to find just one guy, that had the same problem, that was so isolated that only the internet could tie the same 2 incidents together. That is not the deal here. This is only thread number 6 million of piston seize on the internet....

It is a 4 corner piston sieze here. (6 MILLION AN 1) This is not that friggin complicated.
So now, for my internet expert assessment based off pics and thread content....

A)There is a clearance isssue with the bore
B) owner is impatient and not taking proper steps to break in the piston and jug before it siezes
C) jetting needs to be put back to.....well see my signature.....and if it only runs for 10 minutes, there can be no jetting adjustments in 10 minutes and is all speculation at this point...
D) all the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro above...

Choose wisely...this for all the marbles.

Seriously though, if I came to a forum, posted being pigheaded stubborn for suggestions, as a assisting member I would have stopped giving advice on page 3....out of pure sanity. ..
Ever answer has been posted here. Every possible scenario for this guy's problem has been layed out in this thread. If it does not get corrected, the answer as to why is painfully obvious.

If I came to a forum, and ran into derailing comments, for my problem, I would shut the friggin monitor down and get out there and figure out my trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotr ailpro problem on my own, like we had to in the old days when there was no internet to go to, and a undying need and want to ride, over trumped useless hours pissing back and forth on the internet. ...But somehow I feel this will go on at least 4 more pages before it goes good, or gets worse....Please prove me wrong.

[Daddio]

Garbage thread. Here's an idea, there should be a special place here for this type of garbage so it doesn't taint the rest of the site. :crazy:

[Scootertrash]

My thread? What thread? This thread?http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160325/508f463e8c0aaab4e8c19d3220acde4a.jpg

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Your 200X crankshaft thread

[Scootertrash]

Nono, it didn't run when I bought it. Every time I've torn it back apart it wasn't because it didn't stop running.


Exactly. And it still doesn't run.

A seizure stops it from running in my experience. Or did it fall to the ground twitching and flopping uncontrollably?

[Scootertrash]

NOS needle? You do realize you can buy brand new Keihin needles right? Even a brand new carb, the same model that was used on these trikes.

I made a lot of assumptions, obviously assuming that the jetting was anything close to useable on a trike that I bought in non-running condition was not the best of them.

It was not a crank bearing. Forcing that bearing in was not in any way ideal, I was stumped with what to do at the time, and already stressed out enough over other things. Again, my mistake, no sense in calling me out on it now. Transmission is put together as it should be, thrust washers in the correct places, shifts through all the gears. I do have my doubts about it, using a bearing that is not OEM for one, not replacing every bearing with a brand new one, shift forks with irregular wear due to past mistakes, etc.

I mentioned it before, I already bought 3 different sized needles ranging from rich to lean. Going to use that as a starting point before i do anything else. Everyone in this thread kept pushing pressure testing is why I was posting about it, FYI.

Yup I'm well aware of what you can buy new, I, like many others in this thread have been doing this sh!t for a long time.
Problem is, if you're not sure what the stock needle was are you just gonna guess? Roast another piston? NOS gives you the needle that came in the machine from the factory, the proper place to start jetting.

Forcing anything during a rebuild is not only "not ideal", it's the wrong thing to do period. If you're stumped and stressed, you walk away for awhile, take a break.

[JesseA420]

Nono, it didn't run when I bought it. Every time I've torn it back apart it wasn't because it didn't stop running.

You guys have no faith.

http://i.imgur.com/hFwxgN8.gif

[ironchop]

.... Sorry guys, but I'll take a professional engine builders advice over someone on the Internet.....

Hmmmmm.

Ok .



Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

[loganm]

Yup I'm well aware of what you can buy new, I, like many others in this thread have been doing this sh!t for a long time.
Problem is, if you're not sure what the stock needle was are you just gonna guess? Roast another piston? NOS gives you the needle that came in the machine from the factory, the proper place to start jetting.

Forcing anything during a rebuild is not only "not ideal", it's the wrong thing to do period. If you're stumped and stressed, you walk away for awhile, take a break.

That's why I bought a range of needles. Put the richest one in first, if it bogs and sputters, and the plug reads black, go leaner, if it still runs hot, white plug, order a richer needle, or take a step back and re-evaluate what the engine is doing.

[loganm]

The trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro talking here is ridiculous. 10+ people bitching because the motor didn't pass a pressure test PERFECTLY. If you believe fixing this minuscule air leak will fix my problem, provide some actual god damn experience and insight into it. Like an actual example of how much difference fixing an air leak like that did on an engine.

You wanna help, how about a god damn phone call, instead of talking trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro about what I've done in the past with this. I'm not throwing my cell out on a public forum tho.

[yaegerb]

The trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro talking here is ridiculous.

Really?, Go post your question over on BansheeHQ if you think this site is ridiculous.


If you believe fixing this minuscule air leak will fix my problem, provide some actual god damn experience and insight into it. Like an actual example of how much difference fixing an air leak like that did on an engine.

err ma gawd, I am tired of proving stuff to people that don't want to be helped.



You wanna help, how about a god damn phone call, instead of talking about what I've done in the past with this. I'm not throwing my cell out on a public forum tho.

No thanks, I'm out. I will be over in the corner eating popcorn.....mic drop.

[AK47KID]

This ain't that thread so don't worry about it

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[AK47KID]

Really?, Go post your question over on BansheeHQ if you think this site is ridiculous.



err ma gawd, I am tired of proving stuff to people that don't want to be helped.




No thanks, I'm out. I will be over in the corner eating popcorn.....mic drop.
Oh God that would be funny! They'd make him feel 10 times as stupid!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[ironchop]

Logan, just take it to the local builder you trust so much and have him tell you what to do since you don't trust anyone here. Problem solved.

No need to keep this thread going really.


Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

[loganm]

Logan, just take it to the local builder you trust so much and have him tell you what to do since you don't trust anyone here. Problem solved.

No need to keep this thread going really.


Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

Do you want me to post the dyno charts after?

[ironchop]

Do you want me to post the dyno charts after?
Absolutely. Everyone loves dyno reports.

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[briano]

Why is it that a professional such as yourself needs Internet help anyway. Every time you ask a question, the answers aren't good enough for you and then your snatch ends up bleeding all over.

[Scootertrash]

This ain't that thread so don't worry about it

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Obviously puns, double entendres, and sarcasm go over your head..........


HOLD ON LET ME COOK SOME POP CORN FOR THIS SHOW

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You may want to withhold your comments until you have your "I just bought 2 non-running motors, I'm gonna swap one into my X" built and running, lest you end up in the same boat. ;)

[AK47KID]

I actually have 3, one works 1 is seized and the other one is in pieces

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[AK47KID]

Obviously puns, double entendres, and sarcasm go over your head..........



You may want to withhold your comments until you have your "I just bought 2 non-running motors, I'm gonna swap one into my X" built and running, lest you end up in the same boat. ;)
Actually it has a shifting problem And has a leaking head gasket. So I'm junking it

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[Scootertrash]

And you know this how, when it doesn't run? Shifting thru the gears without the gears in the transmission turning is not a reliable way to test the transmission.

[Dirtcrasher]

Since no other method seems acceptable; Take out the piston and spin it gently on a belt sander (with a steady hand), about 60 grit or less numerically. You won't have to break it in, a shortcut per say. How do you think the drag cars rebuild a motor in 18 minutes??

Then buy a brand new carb that's jetted for anything that fits that size intake. A 32mm carb works on all 32mm intakes.

No more seizures, just a hair of loss in compression.....

[loganm]

Please keep the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro talking in my thread about me thanks

[AK47KID]

Technically on a 2 stroke if you want your engine to run as well as it did before the bore you need to match the heights of your ports to what they were before the bore, so whether you do that or not you should still check your jetting after you break it in.

Another (and much more important) thing about proper jetting is that it is related to the content of oxygen in the volume of air passing through the engine at any given moment more so than any other factor. An example would be that today is 80F and you're heading up the mountains with your buddies. You find that your engine seems down on power. Next weekend you run out to the coast to ride in the sand and a cold front comes in. Your trike seems feels like it's on the bottle when you hit the power band even though you haven't touched a thing and your still using last weeks pre-mix.

The reason would be that you were jetted rich on the warm high altitude ride and NEAR perfect for the cool sea level ride. Now the scary part... THERE'S NO SUCH THINK AS PERFECT JETTING on a carburetor. But don't be scared. As long as everything else is good (no air leaks) and you aren't dedicated to 5 minute wide open uphill blasts or sub sea level air conditions your stock jetting should be fine for your otherwise stock engine after it's been bored. Keep in mind that your air/fuel screw is in effect an adjustable jet that you can play with at any time right on the trail.

The reason being that "close" jetting" is usually safe within 2,000' of corrected altitude change and almost every two stroke ever made (other than a few big bores) was overly rich to start with.

If you're planning to mess wit your jetting pull what you have in your carb and buy 2 sizes in both directions of the pilot and the main then read up on tuning and play with it. The rewards of proper jetting are better than adding a pipe, or adding fiber reeds, but be warned, power is addictive and it's hard to stop messing with jets once you get a taste of that power.
Thanks for the info

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[onformula1]

Please keep the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro talking in my thread about me thanks

Keep in mind, this kind of talking is a result of YOUR Attitude.

Like I wrote back in one of your many PM's too me- There ARE some extremely talented guy's on the forum, yes a internet forum, who would think these people could or would type on the internet and try to help inexperienced people like yourself???

Surely they must have better things too do, but they take the time too move this sport forward (Spending thousands of dollars in the process) Also, these people have always been around, but back in the old days it was meeting people at swaps, riding or racing then many phone calls where placed for help, the internet has just made it easier to help each other,,, IT does not mean the talent level is bad, just more accessible.

Now, there are some people here trying to learn, unlike you. Someday they maybe at a high level as well.

I strive to learn something everyday,,, Maybe you can drop the attitude and find it in your heart to learn one thing???, today.

[AK47KID]

And you know this how, when it doesn't run? Shifting thru the gears without the gears in the transmission turning is not a reliable way to test the transmission.
What the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro is wrong with you? Why the hell do you waste your time on trolling on almost everyone on this site? My 185s in my 200x frame is a pure pile of crap. There is too much play in the shift fork and it doesn't shift up or down with out force. I've already adjusted the clutch screw by the dips tick. No lukk. That is why I'm putting the 200s engine in it. If It doesn't work. I'll take it to the pros to rebuild

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[loganm]

Keep in mind, this kind of talking is a result of YOUR Attitude.

Like I wrote back in one of your many PM's too me- There ARE some extremely talented guy's on the forum, yes a internet forum, who would think these people could or would type on the internet and try to help inexperienced people like yourself???

Surely they must have better things too do, but they take the time too move this sport forward (Spending thousands of dollars in the process) Also, these people have always been around, but back in the old days it was meeting people at swaps, riding or racing then many phone calls where placed for help, the internet has just made it easier to help each other,,, IT does not mean the talent level is bad, just more accessible.

Now, there are some people here trying to learn, unlike you. Someday they maybe at a high level as well.

I strive to learn something everyday,,, Maybe you can drop the attitude and find it in your heart to learn one thing???, today.

I am here to learn. I'm getting multiple opinions from different people. Sorry I don't follow YOUR word down to a T.

[loganm]

Since no other method seems acceptable; Take out the piston and spin it gently on a belt sander (with a steady hand), about 60 grit or less numerically. You won't have to break it in, a shortcut per say. How do you think the drag cars rebuild a motor in 18 minutes??

Then buy a brand new carb that's jetted for anything that fits that size intake. A 32mm carb works on all 32mm intakes.

No more seizures, just a hair of loss in compression.....

That won't make you lose compression unless you take material off the top of the piston, it will just fit looser in the bore.

[onformula1]

I am here to learn. I'm getting multiple opinions from different people. Sorry I don't follow YOUR word down to a T.

#1- You must be joking, no???

#2- Opinions are good, if you followed them you would not be at 4 pistons and counting.

#3- Please don't take my opinions, I have only been building engines for 33 years, so I have a lot to learn, but I have only seized one engine in my lifetime and that was a 125cc endurance test to check the limits in a long wide open desert race, which I knew it was definitely possible it would seize.... I did hit the kill button and saved it.

[Jmoozy27]

That won't make you lose compression unless you take material off the top of the piston, it will just fit looser in the bore.

Thus making less compression...:rolleyes: Step back and take notes.:pics: Your arrogance used to be amusing. Now it's your ignorance that amuses me.:D

At times (while ingesting popcorn):beerI want to root for you because I feel like your starting to accept reality. But, wishful thinking usually leads to a let down.

No big deal though..:cool:. It's actually quite common to have dipshts in life. You can't force someone to do something unwillingly. :wondering

You get it how you live.:twisted: :banned: You reap what you sew...:(

[cbx1170]

I cant help it. Gotta reply. worked as flat rate tech on and off since 1975. Finally post 118 it was stated vacuum decay check. Hello.. Pressure test since post 1 - 6 psi with max decay rate of 1 psi leak / minute (if at 5psi or lower after 1 minute FAIL) AND HOLD ON POST 118 Vacuum test... 6 pound vacuum with max decay rate 1 psi/minute (if at 5 pounds vacuum or less after 1 min FAIL). Pressure test gives you only 1/2 the info you need. Pushing out anywhere usually not a big problem. you just get to see residual fuel and oil leaks at gaskets rubber manifolds seals etc. still bad BUT vacuum will tell you things like... if your crank to clutch side seal is allowing bottom end to pull trans oil and burning it also makes exhaust smell like burning 4 stroke oil. every last cr500 engine in my Laegers trikes had a bad RH crank seal ate 1/2 qt oil in 2-3 tanks fuel. AND vacuum decay test will tell you if you are pulling AIR ANYWHERE into engine intake boots fine cracks LH CRANK SEALS behind ignition guaranteed to make you buy pistons over and over again base gskts intake gskts center case halves you name it. Also bad surfaces on metal parts. Final hands on exam at Honda reg tech class 1983 they had fine bubbles / leaks both pressure and vacuum test at base gaskets. HHMMMM. ? WHY did they do this? low rpm or high rpm failure? Press and vac test done and only valid for diagnosis while engine is still together before tear down. Yes Mosh most all of us can tell lean leaks. erratic idle pings bangs, cant jet and a generally unhappy engine. a light shot of ether carefully finds them quick. I recently had a non Hon/Yam/Kaw/Suz exhaust manifold with a weak design come loose from cylinder and before i caught it the damage had started. did not notice slight idle increase. AIR LEAK back into engine, not terminal but not good one of my best engines that ran 5 years hard hard duning. You can talk bore honing clearances types of pistons quality of work individuals oils all you want but if you dont have an open and inquisitive mind to search and find the problem all you are doing is masking the symptom and not fixing the problem. all of this is just one thing to check. keep checking other things. good luck. I have rarely damaged a 2 stroke piston (specifically not a new one) mine or customers unless something was REALLY wrong or bad to begin with or really bad or no (put my name here) maintenance was done. 5 min warm up !!!! then hold it on the rev limiter mercilessly and it keeps running WHY?

[El Camexican]

Loganm, I have concluded that you ARE MUCH SMARTER than everyone else posting on your threads. The proof is that we're still posting on your threads and therefor MUST BE IDIOTS. I can see no other reason why anyone would continue to engage you.

This will be my last post on any thread you start. I wish you the best of luck in all endeavors; may your suspensions be plush, your welds strong and your cylinders round. Live long and please don't breed :beer

[onformula1]

Loganm, I have concluded that you ARE MUCH SMARTER than everyone else posting on your threads. The proof is that we're still posting on your threads and therefor MUST BE IDIOTS. I can see no other reason why anyone would continue to engage you.

This will be my last post on any thread you start. I wish you the best of luck in all endeavors; may your suspensions be plush, your welds strong and your cylinders round. Live long and please don't breed :beer

And with that, I am kicking the MIC & MIC stand to the curb...OUT.

[Scootertrash]

What the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro is wrong with you? Why the hell do you waste your time on trolling on almost everyone on this site? My 185s in my 200x frame is a pure pile of crap. There is too much play in the shift fork and it doesn't shift up or down with out force. I've already adjusted the clutch screw by the dips tick. No lukk. That is why I'm putting the 200s engine in it. If It doesn't work. I'll take it to the pros to rebuild

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Pretty sensitive aren't you?

I'm not trolling. I'm asking questions to find out how you came to your conclusion. You didn't say which motor you were talking about, so I had to assume it was one of your non running motors.

I'll ask you again, like I've asked in your other threads "DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?"

Adjusting the screw by the dipstick won't change the amount of play in the shifter. It's for adjusting the clutch. The operation of the clutch has nothing to do with the play in the shifter. THERE IS NO ADJUSTMENT FOR PLAY IN THE SHIFTER.

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

If your clutch plates are worn out of spec, you will not be able to properly adjust the clutch. If you can't properly adjust the clutch, guess what? HARD SHIFTING

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

Have you checked the splines on the shifter shaft and inside the shifter lever to be sure that the shifter lever isn't slipping causing what you consider to be excessive play?

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

From the Honda Service Manual/Clutch Oil Pump Chapter/Troubleshooting

HARD TO SHIFT

1. Stopper plate damaged
2. Incorrect clutch adjustment
3. Faulty clutch lifter

From the Honda Service Manual/ Transmission Chapter/ Troubleshooting:

HARD TO SHIFT
1. Shift fork bent
2. Shift fork shaft bent

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

All of these potential causes of your problem can be inspected, diagnosed, and repaired BY USING THE SERVICE MANUAL

Guess what? If the parts in your 185 are out of spec, you can use the parts in your newly purchased engine without a top end (if they are present in the engine and in spec), to repair the shifting issues in your 185 so you have a running auto x while you make sure the other 200 is running or capable of running instead of wasting all the time swapping out and engine that may not run.

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

F'n Millennials. You want everyone else to do the footwork for you and when you don't hear what you want or get what you want "It's not fair!! Stop picking on me!! Jesus H jumping Christ on a pogo stick.

You know why a lot of mechanical/repair/diagnostic questions get very few responses?

A. Because 99% of them have already been answered multiple times and the answers are easily found using the search function. But then someone would actually have to do some reading to find the answer. Waaaaayyy too much work.

B. Threads like this where young punk, wet behind the ears know it alls ask for help, then disrespect the ones trying to help them, or even better yet? Tell them they don't know what they're talking about.

Oh Yea, did I forget to ask: DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

[Jd110]

Excuse me, but.......seems like a few of you experts would rather engage in muscle flexing and insults, rather than saying something nice to someone that posted something you asked for in your own thread. If you don't like the response from someone your helping, why not stop helping? Period. Move on. When some of you are challenged or not listened to, you get all bent and the insults start. Let's just try and keep it clean.

[freewheeler]

Excuse me, but.......seems like a few of you experts would rather engage in muscle flexing and insults, rather than saying something nice to someone that posted something you asked for in your own thread. If you don't like the response from someone your helping, why not stop helping? Period. Move on. When some of you are challenged or not listened to, you get all bent and the insults start. Let's just try and keep it clean.

Oh have you not been around here long? Ok.

See what happens here, is that somewhere around ten or 15 members on this site get to say absolutely anything they would like to say without repercussions, while the masses of new and even older members are stifled into submission. If you don't begin to agree with this 'inner circle' or clique quite promptly, you become a target for their amusement. It's pretty well just a place for this small group of hobbyists to gather without opposition t their opinions and interaction. This behavior is supported by the administration here and is undoubtedly the reason for the rapidly declining interaction on the site.

Enjoy.

[sledcrazyinCT]

JD110 the thread started cordial just got ugly when OP made the retarded statement that people on this forum don't know much, if anything, compared to his local pro shop mechanic.
The OP took a shot at members who operate a shop or earn a living building engines.

This site is here at no cost to join so please respect the privilege and if you happen to not trust someone's advice here be civil enough to agree to disagree without the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro talking when you asked for the help in the first place

[Scootertrash]

JD110 the thread started cordial just got ugly when OP made the retarded statement that people on this forum don't know much, if anything, compared to his local pro shop mechanic.
The OP took a shot at members who operate a shop or earn a living building engines.

This site is here at no cost to join so please respect the privilege and if you happen to not trust someone's advice here be civil enough to agree to disagree without the trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro talking when you asked for the help in the first place


This is exactly the problem and the solution. OP asked for help and basically flipped off those who were trying to help with the correct way to solve his mechanical problems.

There are many years of experience by members with tons of hours behind the wrenches on this site available at no cost.

[Scootertrash]

Oh have you not been around here long? Ok.

See what happens here, is that somewhere around ten or 15 members on this site get to say absolutely anything they would like to say without repercussions, while the masses of new and even older members are stifled into submission. If you don't begin to agree with this 'inner circle' or clique quite promptly, you become a target for their amusement. It's pretty well just a place for this small group of hobbyists to gather without opposition t their opinions and interaction. This behavior is supported by the administration here and is undoubtedly the reason for the rapidly declining interaction on the site.

Enjoy.

Join Date? - Check
Post Count? - Check

Stops by to criticize the site? :rolleyes:

[Jd110]

Sure. I can try...some days are better than others. A person might say something one day they wouldn't say the next. Nobody is perfect. Get over it. Take the bad with the good. And don't fixate on the negative just to ignore the positive posts. There is a lot of good stuff here. Just saying-please try to be cool. Thanks

[AK47KID]

Pretty sensitive aren't you?

I'm not trolling. I'm asking questions to find out how you came to your conclusion. You didn't say which motor you were talking about, so I had to assume it was one of your non running motors.

I'll ask you again, like I've asked in your other threads "DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?"

Adjusting the screw by the dipstick won't change the amount of play in the shifter. It's for adjusting the clutch. The operation of the clutch has nothing to do with the play in the shifter. THERE IS NO ADJUSTMENT FOR PLAY IN THE SHIFTER.

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

If your clutch plates are worn out of spec, you will not be able to properly adjust the clutch. If you can't properly adjust the clutch, guess what? HARD SHIFTING

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

Have you checked the splines on the shifter shaft and inside the shifter lever to be sure that the shifter lever isn't slipping causing what you consider to be excessive play?

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

From the Honda Service Manual/Clutch Oil Pump Chapter/Troubleshooting

HARD TO SHIFT

1. Stopper plate damaged
2. Incorrect clutch adjustment
3. Faulty clutch lifter

From the Honda Service Manual/ Transmission Chapter/ Troubleshooting:

HARD TO SHIFT
1. Shift fork bent
2. Shift fork shaft bent

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

All of these potential causes of your problem can be inspected, diagnosed, and repaired BY USING THE SERVICE MANUAL

Guess what? If the parts in your 185 are out of spec, you can use the parts in your newly purchased engine without a top end (if they are present in the engine and in spec), to repair the shifting issues in your 185 so you have a running auto x while you make sure the other 200 is running or capable of running instead of wasting all the time swapping out and engine that may not run.

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

F'n Millennials. You want everyone else to do the footwork for you and when you don't hear what you want or get what you want "It's not fair!! Stop picking on me!! Jesus H jumping Christ on a pogo stick.

You know why a lot of mechanical/repair/diagnostic questions get very few responses?

A. Because 99% of them have already been answered multiple times and the answers are easily found using the search function. But then someone would actually have to do some reading to find the answer. Waaaaayyy too much work.

B. Threads like this where young punk, wet behind the ears know it alls ask for help, then disrespect the ones trying to help them, or even better yet? Tell them they don't know what they're talking about.

Oh Yea, did I forget to ask: DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?
I'm no expert at engines but I know a thing or 2 and my knowledge is increasing because of this site. Why do you thrash most threads I post asking for help about stuff. If I had a God damn manual for all my machines it still wouldn't help. I know what the screw is for. I knew it wouldn't help with fork play. Why would I just look in a manual with out asking the experts what I could do before I tear down of the engine, or what the cause could be? No one else has a problem with me asking questions it's only you. Whither it's my thread or not you trash everything I say. Ya I'm 15 at leased I act mature and don't start crap with other people like YOU do.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[loganm]

Pretty sensitive aren't you?

I'm not trolling. I'm asking questions to find out how you came to your conclusion. You didn't say which motor you were talking about, so I had to assume it was one of your non running motors.

I'll ask you again, like I've asked in your other threads "DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?"

Adjusting the screw by the dipstick won't change the amount of play in the shifter. It's for adjusting the clutch. The operation of the clutch has nothing to do with the play in the shifter. THERE IS NO ADJUSTMENT FOR PLAY IN THE SHIFTER.

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

If your clutch plates are worn out of spec, you will not be able to properly adjust the clutch. If you can't properly adjust the clutch, guess what? HARD SHIFTING

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

Have you checked the splines on the shifter shaft and inside the shifter lever to be sure that the shifter lever isn't slipping causing what you consider to be excessive play?

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

From the Honda Service Manual/Clutch Oil Pump Chapter/Troubleshooting

HARD TO SHIFT

1. Stopper plate damaged
2. Incorrect clutch adjustment
3. Faulty clutch lifter

From the Honda Service Manual/ Transmission Chapter/ Troubleshooting:

HARD TO SHIFT
1. Shift fork bent
2. Shift fork shaft bent

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

All of these potential causes of your problem can be inspected, diagnosed, and repaired BY USING THE SERVICE MANUAL

Guess what? If the parts in your 185 are out of spec, you can use the parts in your newly purchased engine without a top end (if they are present in the engine and in spec), to repair the shifting issues in your 185 so you have a running auto x while you make sure the other 200 is running or capable of running instead of wasting all the time swapping out and engine that may not run.

DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

F'n Millennials. You want everyone else to do the footwork for you and when you don't hear what you want or get what you want "It's not fair!! Stop picking on me!! Jesus H jumping Christ on a pogo stick.

You know why a lot of mechanical/repair/diagnostic questions get very few responses?

A. Because 99% of them have already been answered multiple times and the answers are easily found using the search function. But then someone would actually have to do some reading to find the answer. Waaaaayyy too much work.

B. Threads like this where young punk, wet behind the ears know it alls ask for help, then disrespect the ones trying to help them, or even better yet? Tell them they don't know what they're talking about.

Oh Yea, did I forget to ask: DO YOU HAVE A SERVICE MANUAL?

Or maybe, believe it or not, you don't know everything. Someone, onformula maybe, told me they've only blown up 1 engine. If you've only blow up one engine, how do you know what doesn't work? The inventor of the lightbulb failed over 100 times before they got it right.

I can tell you tons of ways not to rebuild an engine, I can tell you tons of ways not to weld a 2G open root, I can tell you tons of things not to do when attempting a max deadlift. How? Through experience, and doing it the wrong way myself. I don't claim to know everything, but I know some stuff, and I know exactly what my engine runs like, unlike anyone else here.

I never completely dismissed the fact that it wasn't an air leak, but I will do things my way, you don't have to get all bent out of shape about it.

[Billy Golightly]

Oh have you not been around here long? Ok.

See what happens here, is that somewhere around ten or 15 members on this site get to say absolutely anything they would like to say without repercussions, while the masses of new and even older members are stifled into submission. If you don't begin to agree with this 'inner circle' or clique quite promptly, you become a target for their amusement. It's pretty well just a place for this small group of hobbyists to gather without opposition t their opinions and interaction. This behavior is supported by the administration here and is undoubtedly the reason for the rapidly declining interaction on the site.

Enjoy.

Not really. Its just after 20 years of watching the same pissing matches and penor measuring contests, our effs given meter is running a little low.

[Jd110]

Hello billy. First off, not exactly sure your position here as it does seem high up, but want to thank you for all your time into this site. There is a lot of wonderful people here with loads of experience. We are all here for the same common goal-the enjoyment of our trikes. I understand conflict will be inevitable. It is a major turn off when experts insult. I'm sorry they feel that need. I do appreciate all the knowledge they offer. Thank you, again, and please keep up the good work!

[loganm]

229587Needles came, the mystery needle is a good 4 mm shorter than these keihin ones! And the diameter is ~ the same as the leanest needle I bought. Wish me luck, lol.

Also, 35F needle has a shallower taper then any of the needles I bought, and is still noticeably thicker at the end of the taper. Even still the engine is running fat AF. Hopefully this gives me some insight as to what is going on if it doesn't fix the problem.

229587

[Scootertrash]

Why do you thrash most threads I post asking for help about stuff.
Posting a simple, easy to access solution for ALL of your mechanical problems IS NOT "thrashing your threads"


If I had a God damn manual for all my machines it still wouldn't help.
You're joking, right? Nah, nevermind, you're right. A book with all the info you need to troubleshoot, diagnose and repair the problems you have with your machine(s) would be totally worthless. :rolleyes: I mean, why else would stealerships and professional mechanics have copies of FACTORY Service manuals available for their expert mechanics, right?


Why would I just look in a manual with out asking the experts what I could do before I tear down of the engine, or what the cause could be?
Because the Service Manual is written up BY THE FACTORY EXPERTS WHO BUILT THE MACHINE. WTF more could you ask for?

Everything I posted above for troubleshooting your shifter problem is DIRECTLY, VERBATIM, WORD FOR WORD FROM THE SERVICE MANUAL THAT'S WRITTEN BY EXPERTS AT THE FACTORY FOR FACTORY MECHANICS. In the clutch and/or transmission section of the SERVICE MANUAL it will tell you how to access and inspect these parts and how to fix your problem. It's really that easy!


No one else has a problem with me asking questions it's only you.

If I had a problem with you asking questions, I wouldn't have given you the information you need to diagnose your problem and the access to the information you can use to diagnose and repair virtually ANY problem you may have with your 3 wheeler. Which includes the recommendation of having access to a SERVICE MANUAL.


Ya I'm 15 at leased I act mature and don't start crap with other people like YOU do.

Yea, temper tantrums and hissy fits are sooo mature. I've given you all the info you need, but I'm sure you'll find something to whine about.


my knowledge is increasing because of this site

That's good that you're making progress. Now all you need to learn is that a SERVICE MANUAL is an important part of any mechanics tools.

[Scootertrash]

Here, I'll condense it for you so it's easier to follow:

If your clutch plates are worn out of spec, you will not be able to properly adjust the clutch. If you can't properly adjust the clutch, guess what? HARD SHIFTING

Have you checked the splines on the shifter shaft and inside the shifter lever to be sure that the shifter lever isn't slipping causing what you consider to be excessive play?

From the Honda Service Manual/Clutch Oil Pump Chapter/Troubleshooting

HARD TO SHIFT

1. Stopper plate damaged
2. Incorrect clutch adjustment
3. Faulty clutch lifter

From the Honda Service Manual/ Transmission Chapter/ Troubleshooting:

HARD TO SHIFT
1. Shift fork bent
2. Shift fork shaft bent

If the parts in your 185 are out of spec, you can use the parts in your newly purchased 200 engine without a top end (if they are present in the engine and in spec), to repair the shifting issues in your 185 so you have a running auto x while you make sure the other 200 is running or capable of running instead of wasting all the time swapping out an engine that may not run.

And lastly, Since you're too smart to ask the most important question "Is there anywhere I can get copies of manuals?" here is a link to a site with copies of service manuals in PDF form. Unfortunately you'll have to d/l them and read them yourself, I don't have the time to come and read them to you.

http://www.oscarmayer.net/atc/manuals/


Giving advice on this site is like trying to teach knots to Cub Scouts. Some get it, some try, some just chew on the rope.

[loganm]

Well, I seized it up solid this time. It was after a long stretch (5min) of half throttle riding. Went fine till the very end I noticed it was starting to get hot (watching temp the whole time) so I backed off a bit. Ending temp was 315 ish. Pushed the kicker over slow and could tell the top end was fried. This is what the plug looks like.

229588

Do you think this was from a lean condition, caused by jetting, or still an air leak issue?

Or, a top end that's still too tight?

140 main jet, needle is KLG. I don't know the pilot but the idle is on the rich side.

[Billy Golightly]

Hello billy. First off, not exactly sure your position here as it does seem high up, but want to thank you for all your time into this site. There is a lot of wonderful people here with loads of experience. We are all here for the same common goal-the enjoyment of our trikes. I understand conflict will be inevitable. It is a major turn off when experts insult. I'm sorry they feel that need. I do appreciate all the knowledge they offer. Thank you, again, and please keep up the good work!

What's a major turn off is when the people that have been doing this stuff for a long, long time (Some longer than other members have been alive...) take the time and effort to explain a solution, or several solutions for a problem, and a person doesn't particularly pay any mind to it, or doesn't take the time to fully absorb and understand what was offered to them. So then they're running off and buying the next shiny widget for their machine with the expectations of it mysteriously solving the problem. Not fully understanding what their parameters and variables to the problem they are having, actually are after someone is willing to and takes THEIR TIME to try and help/explain it. That's a little frustrating. Sometimes leading questions are asked for a reason in diagnosis - catch a fish for a man and feed him a day, teach him to fish and feed him for life. Sometimes there seems to be very little appreciation for the time and effort some of these guys give towards just sharing information and helping out, but it is the entitlement generation I guess.

I think I just went full on crotchety old man mode. Carry-on.

[loganm]

Also, it's 45 out today. Last time I ran it it was 75 out. Do you think the 30F difference plus going down from a 145 to 140 main would've caused this?

[Jd110]

What's a major turn off is when the people that have been doing this stuff for a long, long time (Some longer than other members have been alive...) take the time and effort to explain a solution, or several solutions for a problem, and a person doesn't particularly pay any mind to it, or doesn't take the time to fully absorb and understand what was offered to them. So then they're running off and buying the next shiny widget for their machine with the expectations of it mysteriously solving the problem. Not fully understanding what their parameters and variables to the problem they are having, actually are after someone is willing to and takes THEIR TIME to try and help/explain it. That's a little frustrating. Sometimes leading questions are asked for a reason in diagnosis - catch a fish for a man and feed him a day, teach him to fish and feed him for life. Sometimes there seems to be very little appreciation for the time and effort some of these guys give towards just sharing information and helping out, but it is the entitlement generation I guess.

I think I just went full on crotchety old man mode. Carry-on.well I certainly don't want to go back and forth over this. I do think you got my point. It's not who you deal with, it's how you deal with them. Are you excusing these guys? It's hard to tell. I'm not perfect by any means. I've said things I didn't mean. You have heard "Can't teach an old dog new tricks". Well maybe....

[Thorpe]

229589

It pains me that so many, extremely talented people on this forum, give you advice, to which you blatantly ignore, because you know everything about the tune and the way your machine runs.... err... Ran.

[loganm]

229589

It pains me that so many, extremely talented people on this forum, give you advice, to which you blatantly ignore, because you know everything about the tune and the way your machine runs.... err... Ran.

Because this is the Internet, and people can CLAIM anything they want, ask for proof and they'll find something else to trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro about.

[Thorpe]

Well Logan, a lot of these guys have cherry machines, that run as good as they look... I guess that would be reason enough for me to be a dink and not follow any of their advice. :rolleyes: With your line of thinking, I am gonna buy stock in Weisco, cause your gonna keep buying a lot of pistons!

[loganm]

If this piston is still remotely intact I'll throw the rings off the first one on and try that hammer see if I can really do some damage

Did you even read my last post? It died after a prolonged period of constant throttle. Looking at the plug it looks to be about right, for a modern liquid cooled engine maybe. This is my only experience with these engines, I don't know what the plug should ideally read.

All I know is I overheated it and fried the top end.

[86T3]

Is this an air cooled motor?

[loganm]

Is this an air cooled motor?

Affirmative

[bkm]

Milford Lake? OK, I will see if I can get BKM to come too.

Negative Ghost Rider, I'm busy that weekend.

[Red Rider]

Because this is the Internet, and people can CLAIM anything they want, ...Logan, if you don't believe these guys, just because it's the internet, then why did you come here looking for help, via the internet?

A lot of these guys are now bald because of this thread.

[loganm]

Logan, if you don't believe these guys, just because it's the internet, then why did you come here looking for help, via the internet?

A lot of these guys are now bald because of this thread.

There's a complex algorithm I use to determine someone's bs percentage. It involves averaging out everything from sarcasm to butthurtness and actual technical proficiency.

[loganm]

See how I'm getting no responses now? It's running lean enough to overheat after a long run, not much else.

Unless the piston and bore being scored up already caused me to have trouble with it.

[bkm]

Unless the piston and bore being scored up already caused me to have trouble with it.

Nah, I wouldn't think friction would result in more heat. But I'm sure stranger things have happened.

[loganm]

Nah, I wouldn't think friction would result in more heat. But I'm sure stranger things have happened.

Do you think if the bore was clean that I would've been alright?

[Scootertrash]

Hey logjam,

You may want to check out my new siglines.

[loganm]

Hey logjam,

You may want to check out my new siglines.

Cool, you should try adopting it yourself.

[Billy Golightly]

Have you started with the factory jetting, by any chance?

[bkm]

I was being facetious, but all kidding aside and judging by how you've dealt with prior advise, I'll probably have better results talking to the wall.

You have 4 corner seizure, read up on what causes this.

You are trying to jet a carb, that I'm my opinion is probably junk and no matter what you do its never going to be right. I'd seriously look into a fresh, non 32 year old carb that lord only knows what it has been through.

Then get a fresh bore, piston, and true'd deck and base from a reputable atv machinist.

The engine is basically stock after that and should be fine with close to stock jetting.



Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[loganm]

Have you started with the factory jetting, by any chance?

I started with what was in the carb, big mistake. Main was a 152 which is factory according to what onformula told me. It was running far too rich with it.

I have not checked the pilot, idle is about right with the screw one turn out.

BKM, it was a 4 corner seizure the first time. I have a feeling it will be different this time, it did not act the same at all when it seized up. I'll probably pull it tomorrow, should have a bit more information then.

[cbx1170]

loganm the reason we dont blow up or seize 2 stroke engines is because we can literally hear feel sense and smell that something is drastically wrong and therefore we stop the engine, pull the choke on for instance or go into full safe mode before something bad happens. not bragging just stating a fact. i know you stated what you observed what happens while riding or running engine. we are just stating replies based on your observations and pics. 4 corner seize is a classic. that may be only 1 type of failure mode you have encountered. its not gonna fix itself you gotta have an open mind and try some things to find it. Do us a favor and report your findings no matter what it is. btw stating increasing piston to cylinder clearances beyond recommended needs on a 2 stroke does not affect compression is wrong. it absolutely does affect it. piston rocking, rings unable to hold seal due to greater end gap and less cylinder wall tension on top of trying to cross ports as well as rings extended out of ring lands causes.. lower compression. instead of piston assy staying straight and aligned in bore it is moving all around in ways you don't want as it travels up and down. simple man. now what do you want to check or eliminate to get to the bottom of this?

[loganm]

Please, please, at least try to make paragraphs. That was hard to read.

I'm about to pull the piston, I'll post pics.

[averysdad]

everyone try's helping this guy over 100 replies. I posted about my 250r and only yaegerb helps me out. I'm kinda jealous lol. I'm not getting any thing useful out of this it's kinda funny.
Well the leak down info is helpful but (How many post do I have to read through)

[ironchop]

everyone try's helping this guy over 100 replies. I posted about my 250r and only yaegerb helps me out. I'm kinda jealous lol. I'm not getting any thing useful out of this it's kinda funny.
Well the leak down info is helpful but (How many post do I have to read through)
Its because yaegerb is concise and experienced. He's one of the people I would ask.

The lack of responses to your thread doesn't mean you're being ignored. It means "a guy who knows what he's talking about is answering the question"...therefore, no need for anyone else to repeat the obvious or turn the answer into a novel. So a lot of guys just step aside and be quiet because they don't dispute him. Its definitely not dismissing your questions.

Your post cracked me up to. I agree. Logan seem to have magic powers of drawing people in. Shyte worked on me too! Hahaha!


Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

[Scootertrash]

Don't feel bad 'chop. When something sucks it creates a vacuum. You can only hold off being pulled in for so long.

[loganm]

Alright, here goes. Looking at the head and top of the piston, jetting seems to actually be about right. Maybe a tad on the lean side, idk. Piston has a bit of black on top of it, that may be oil burned onto it when it seized. Looking at the bottom it doesn't look like it got that hot either. The oil is black and burned, but it's not pitch black, there's still some brown on there.

229604229605

One thing I did notice is the overall lack of oil everywhere in the engine. I used a can of 91 octane that has been sitting on my front porch since like december. It SHOULD be mixed at 32:1, maybe a bit richer, 28:1 max. I had about half a tank when I filled it up though, so I don't think it used much of that, if any.

It seems to me like this is a combination of jetting on the leaner side, and partially an imperfect bore. It was scored up a bit, couldn't really feel it with my finger, but it was very noticeable by eye in two corners. The piston really only seized on the back left and front right corner, the other two corners BARELY managed to rub the cylinder.

It probably wasn't the best idea to go leaner on the main jet AND change needles, then test it when it's 30 degrees colder outside. One thing at a time, not 10.

229606229607229608229609229610

[Scootertrash]

Have you started with the factory jetting, by any chance?


The engine is basically stock after that and should be fine with close to stock jetting.

Counting myself, that's three people who've told you to start at stock jetting. Is your complex algorithm showing you a common denominator here?

[ironchop]

Got any pics of the bore?

You said it was scored so I was wondering how bad. Was it damaged before you put the newest piston in?

Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

[Scootertrash]

Cool, you should try adopting it yourself.

Watching your never ending spiral into the black abyss of ineptitude and ignorance is enough to convince anybody to not even consider adoption.

[Mosh]

Counting myself, that's three people who've told you to start at stock jetting. Is your complex algorithm showing you a common denominator here?
Actually 4..I said "read my sig " in reference to jetting back on page 8 when I proclaimed this thread would go at least another 4 pages...

The more I look at this piston, it appears to be heavily scored on one side. Op said the cases were split. Just spit balling here...Is the crank centered in the case? Are the dow pins in the case and jug base?
I have never seen that be a issue, but hell why not through that into the conundrum. ..

[Scootertrash]

I stand corrected Sir! 4 it is!!

[loganm]

Counting myself, that's three people who've told you to start at stock jetting. Is your complex algorithm showing you a common denominator here?

It's a 30 year old mis-match basket case, with a pod filter, no silencer, and ghetto port job (seriously (not done by me)). Even if stock jetting weren't a myth I would think twice about considering it. Actually, for a $130 complete eBay top end, with no broken fins, and a decent port match job (not the worst I've seen) It's not a bad deal. Look at what the asking price on most cylinders on eBay, I got that plus the top end, exhaust manifold, reed cage assy. etc.


Got any pics of the bore?

You said it was scored so I was wondering how bad. Was it damaged before you put the newest piston in?

Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk

229611

That is a picture of it after I seized it the first time, with this piston in it. Removed the aluminum with acid before I put it back together. Before I put this piston in it looked very good, almost new. Very light visual scoring, they just honed it after I chewed up the first piston.

@mosh: All dowels are where they should be. With the piston on it has some room to move left and right on the wrist pin, I don't imagine that being a problem. The crank is centered as far as I can tell. Thankfully they're matching cases and not a mis-match set.

Edit: onformula told me the stock main is #152. The manual is telling me #158. Google is telling me it is all sorts of different #s. The 83-4 had a different carb and not the same jetting specs. But judging with how it was currently running, I'd say 145 main would do me good at 65F+. Colder than that and I should probably go back to the #152 for good measure. It doesn't say anything about the needle XXX, just the clip position.

[Scootertrash]

Got any pics of the bore?

You said it was scored so I was wondering how bad. Was it damaged before you put the newest piston in?

Sent from my Z998 using Tapatalk


He clamped a cordless drill in a vise and put a flapwheel in it at 1725 rpm according to a complex alorithm. Should be good to go.

[loganm]

He clamped a cordless drill in a vise and put a flapwheel in it at 1725 rpm according to a complex alorithm. Should be good to go.

That would have to be a corded drill. Most cordless ones won't spin that fast...

[83ATC185]

To the OP, The best thing to do is buy a shop manual and a box of Ziploc bags and a sharpie, tear it completely down and rebuild it per the manual. I can't imagine tearing a "rebuilt" engine down time after time, ending in failure and not being willing to read a manual and take advice. That to me is more frustration than taking the time to do it right once. After the second try I'd be asking myself some questions and trying to figure out where I went wrong, which it seems like you might finally be doing to some extent.

Yeah these guys can be rough on a new guy that's to be expected but the beauty in this forum is the years and years of threads available for people such as yourself, not to mention the money a lot of these guys have spent in innovation and development of trike parts. For something that 90% of the population doesn't care about, there is an amazing amount of knowledge here. Do a little digging and see for yourself. You're surely not the first or the last to have a problem like this. You're new to all this, we get it but from what I see if you're not willing to use your brain and willing to learn you have no business here...learn the basics, get a stock one running and riding how it should and if you don't think the satisfaction of riding matches the work you put in, this may not be your hobby.

I have no 2 stroke experience. Rode one once.

[82 250r]

I have had this same motor and PE carb for 31 years.
This small PE carb will only work with stock jetting. Period. done & done. Period.
Over 31 years of jetting, & more jetting, i always come back to stock jetting because of overheating. It just does not respond to jetting without damage. RUN THE STOCK JETTING WITH THIS CARB AND NOTHING ELSE!!

If it were my machine, i would bore to the next size up, and get a new piston that fits that bore size, and make sure the carb has stock jetting. Your current piston & rings are damaged beyond repair.

Get a cast Honda OEM piston, if possible, from EBAY.

Follow the correct break-in procedure and warm up your machine BEFORE you ride it hard.

If you want to improve performance, get an 83-84 carb. There is a reason Honda changed the carb design in 83-84.

BTW...Running a 2 stroke without a silencer is stupid...it WILL overheat. Just sayin...
I'm not trying to be a dick, just sharing my experience.

Hope this helps
Marc

[Scootertrash]

That would have to be a corded drill. Most cordless ones won't spin that fast...

yea, emphasis on MOST

[Scootertrash]

You're wasting your breath 82..........

[loganm]

I have had this same motor and PE carb for 31 years.
This small PE carb will only work with stock jetting. Period. done & done. Period.
Over 31 years of jetting, & more jetting, i always come back to stock jetting because of overheating. It just does not respond to jetting without damage. RUN THE STOCK JETTING WITH THIS CARB AND NOTHING ELSE!!

If it were my machine, i would bore to the next size up, and get a new piston that fits that bore size, and make sure the carb has stock jetting. Your current piston & rings are damaged beyond repair.

Get a cast Honda OEM piston, if possible, from EBAY.

Follow the correct break-in procedure and warm up your machine BEFORE you ride it hard.

If you want to improve performance, get an 83-84 carb. There is a reason Honda changed the carb design in 83-84.

BTW...Running a 2 stroke without a silencer is stupid...it WILL overheat. Just sayin...
I'm not trying to be a dick, just sharing my experience.

Hope this helps
Marc

Wouldn't an 85-6 carb be better? I'm just trying to get the damn thing to run with this carb. As it is with the old needle I think it was pulling it almost all the way out of the hole, part of why I was running so rich with the 145 main. I learned to let it warm up the hard way, cold seizing a fresh piston. Do you by chance know the lettering on the stock needle? The manual says nothing, just clip position.

It will get a silencer. Because it's loud. I like how it sounds but I also like to think sometimes without stopping and shutting my machine off.


To the OP, The best thing to do is buy a shop manual and a box of Ziploc bags and a sharpie, tear it completely down and rebuild it per the manual. I can't imagine tearing a "rebuilt" engine down time after time, ending in failure and not being willing to read a manual and take advice. That to me is more frustration than taking the time to do it right once. After the second try I'd be asking myself some questions and trying to figure out where I went wrong, which it seems like you might finally be doing to some extent.

There's a lot of stuff the manual just doesn't cover. I know because I read through it multiple times trying to find some information (don't remember what lol) I solved most if not all of my problems with the bottom end before I came here. Most of it was out of negligence and not double checking to make sure all the gears and thrust washers were/are on right(do this). As a result of this I can now name where most of the gears go on the shaft.


yea, emphasis on MOST

If you know of one that does spin that fast, please share. I need it to run a ball hone on my cylinder :welcome:

[82 250r]

I have never ran an 85-86 carb but they are taller so you might run into fitment issues. Also 85 is different than 86.

I am 500 miles away from my machine at the moment so i cant give you the correct needle or pilot jet.

Main Jet= 158
Pilot= ?
Needle= 3rd slot from top
Screw= 1 3/8 open counterclockwise
Float Level= 18.5mm

Remember, all this means nothing if you have an air leak...Always do a pressure check as others have noted.

[Scootertrash]

If you know of one that does spin that fast, please share. I need it to run a ball hone on my cylinder :welcome:


Ask and ye shall receive:

229613

Be careful tho, it's a 2 stroke. you wouldn't want to seize it up and create another project for yourself.

[loganm]

So, bore it out for the next size piston (.0030), have the machine shop bore and hone it for the piston, have them square the cylinder bore up with the base (I think they did this last time, I told them to check for flatness, looks like they took some from one side), go back to the stock main (#152 on the 82 models).

Reassemble top end, pressure test, strict break in, retorque head and base.

Anything I'm missing? I may go through the bottom end again to make sure everything is working correctly. I have everything in the right place this time, I made sure of that.

[82 250r]

Stock pilot jet
Stock needle
Stock needle position
Stock float level

Run it with a silencer or it will be lean & hot.

Don't buy a piston until the machinist has seen & measured your cylinder. Only he can tell you what size to get.

[Billy Golightly]

...have them square the cylinder bore up with the base (I think they did this last time, I told them to check for flatness, looks like they took some from one side)....


Do....what?:shiftyeyes:

[Dirtcrasher]

I sure missed that one; NO SILENCER? They run ridiculously HOT!! Thru this whole blowing up time span of doom and gloom, you never ran a silencer??

If you don't mind spending money, get a new carburetor.

No leak test after this?? No checking of the bore and piston at any machine or motor shop yet??

Your crank will be toast soon. If you supersize any of your pictures, there are pieces of aluminum everywhere, and they keep happening.

Dents where the wrist pin got either installed or removed incorrectly (note the dings or peening) on the piston wrist pin hole appear to be from a hammer.

Do you know how to make a safe wrist pin remover very easy??

See how hot that wrist pin got. Scratches all over everything.

A 4 stroke would be much more difficult than this.

SIMPLE

1) Put the damn silencer on!!
2) Have the bore and piston checked for clearances.
3) Put it together lightly coating the piston with 2 stroke oil.
4) Leak test it AGAIN, even if you already did it once.
5) Brand new carburetor with stock jets. My Keihin for my 2 stroke Hondaster brand new one was 188$.

[loganm]

Do....what?:shiftyeyes:

It was in a post a while back. Over time the base can become warped/hammered/ghetto-machinedwithafile to the point where the bore is actually a few degrees off from perpendicular of the crank centerline... or something.


I sure missed that one; NO SILENCER? They run ridiculously HOT!! Thru this whole blowing up time span of doom and gloom, you never ran a silencer??

If you don't mind spending money, get a new carburetor.

No leak test after this?? No checking of the bore and piston at any machine or motor shop yet??

Your crank will be toast soon. If you supersize any of your pictures, there are pieces of aluminum everywhere, and they keep happening.

Dents where the wrist pin got either installed or removed incorrectly (note the dings or peening) on the piston wrist pin hole appear to be from a hammer.

Do you know how to make a safe wrist pin remover very easy??

See how hot that wrist pin got. Scratches all over everything.

A 4 stroke would be much more difficult than this.

SIMPLE

1) Put the damn silencer on!!
2) Have the bore and piston checked for clearances.
3) Put it together lightly coating the piston with 2 stroke oil.
4) Leak test it AGAIN, even if you already did it once.
5) Brand new carburetor with stock jets. My Keihin for my 2 stroke Hondaster brand new one was 188$.

The wrist pin got installed correctly. Uninstalled... that was something else. No, I didn't just wack away at it with a punch and hammer side loading the piss out of the rod bearing. But I did have to get creative. The top of the rod didn't have any blueing on it, I don't think it got too hot. The original one had a bit of blueing at the top of it. The big end bearing was toast anyways. I don't think the carburetor is an issue. It's still in pretty good condition. And it's a dead simple 2-stroke carb. Compared to what a modern 250F has it is a walk in the park. (Seriously, just installing one is a nightmare.)

[loganm]

Electrolysis is a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro. Went to pull the head studs out so they can check that surface too, even with the cylinder in the oven to expand it it was a bear getting the two that I managed to get out loose. I'm a pretty strong guy, but my shoulder was still screaming out in agony with this. I wanted to save all the studs, but I've twisted 3 off, haven't touched the last one. If it can't fit in a flat rate box with the studs on I'll weld a nut to them.

229635

[keister]

1985 and 1986 250Rs have very different carbs.
What trike are we discussing in this thread?
Does this trike have an airbox?
What exhaust system does this trike have?
Does anyone remember James9r9r?
Have a very Keister Easter !!!

[loganm]

1982 250r pod filter right on the back of the carb stock expansion chamber no silencer.

You lot are telling me I can't run without a silencer. What is the reasoning behind this? I know it's loud, I like how it sounds tbh but it's a bit too obnoxious for my taste. If no silencer makes it run leaner couldn't I just jet up?

[Billy Golightly]

1982 250r pod filter right on the back of the carb stock expansion chamber no silencer.

You lot are telling me I can't run without a silencer. What is the reasoning behind this? I know it's loud, I like how it sounds tbh but it's a bit too obnoxious for my taste. If no silencer makes it run leaner couldn't I just jet up?
You need to put everything back as close to stock as possible and remove as many outside variables as possible if you are serious about diagnosing this thing. And then make ONE change at a time. That is how you diagnose and fix problems. Your engine is a very complex algorithm of different parameters and functions. You need to firstly simplify it by returning everything to as near stock as possible (known good parameters...), and then introduce ONE new parameter (change) at a time. Otherwise you'll get to chase your tail a long, long time.

Your sparkplug looked atrociously hot. Whether that was from jetting, air leak, insufficient air cleaner, too high of compression, too advanced spark ignition, too hot of spark plug, too high of rpms for too long, an exhaust that isnt letting gasses escape enough, or incomplete engine cooling, we don't know.

Establish a new baseline as close to stock as possible. Diagnose one thing at a time from there.

Your piston scoring is a product of incomplete time to adequately heat the engine up before going to the moon with it rpm wise, or incorrect piston to cylinder clearance. Maybe both plus a dashing of a few of the above mentioned things that could factor into the way your plug looks.

Again. Alot of variables and parameters. Simplify and diagnose one at a time.

Quick, effective, or cheap. Pick 2 in order to fix a machine.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

[loganm]

The stock main is 152. I switched needles AND went down to a 140 needle from 145. That combination put me on the right track, I think, but with the combination of no silencer and a POD filter, and significantly smaller main jet, led the engine to overheat.

I did research into the causes of a 4-corner seizure. Improper warm up, lean jetting, too hot spark plug. I'm running the manual recommended spark plug, so that leads two potential causes.

[82 250r]

no silencer.

You lot are telling me I can't run without a silencer. What is the reasoning behind this? I know it's loud, I like how it sounds tbh but it's a bit too obnoxious for my taste. If no silencer makes it run leaner couldn't I just jet up?
15 pages of " i think the carb is lean" is solved by putting your silencer back on.
This is not about impressing your friends by running open headers on your 69 chevy nova.
The silencer is part of a 2 stroke engine.

[loganm]

15 pages of " i think the carb is lean" is solved by putting your silencer back on.
This is not about impressing your friends by running open headers on your 69 chevy nova.
The silencer is part of a 2 stroke engine.

Reason? It's not an expansion chamber. What is the silencer doing that is so important for cooling?

[Jmoozy27]

Reason?

Because if you don't it will fry your engine...


It's not an expansion chamber.
Really??? Come on man.


What is the silencer doing that is so important for cooling?
I really don't know, but we are seeing what happens if you don't use one.

It's written all over the site if you search it. 1st gen 250r w/ stock carb doesn't respond well to anything other than stock jetting.

[loganm]

If someone does know what exactly the silencer does for cooling, please do tell. I just like to learn these kinds of things. What is it doing that's so important to keeping the engine cool?

I could go to a second gen carb, if I were going to buy a brand new one I would definitely upgrade.

[JesseA420]

LOL i mentioned the silencer 10 pages ago.

it does nothing to "keep it cooler" as you say. your expansion chamber/silencer is not just an exhaust system. it is an integral part of the complete operation of the system. do your own due diligence. go read something. do some research.

[Thorpe]

Does anyone remember James9r9r?

Hahaha! I thought bcredneck had maybe moved stateside!

[loganm]

LOL i mentioned the silencer 10 pages ago.

it does nothing to "keep it cooler" as you say. your expansion chamber is not just an exhaust system. it is an integral part of the complete operation of the system. do your own due diligence. go read something. do some research.

What is the silencer doing after the expansion chamber that's so important? Besides silencing ofc. All Google is giving me is threads saying "you just can't". Which is not very informative.

[Thorpe]

stinger acts as a pressure bleed, allowing pressure to escape from the pipe. Back pressure in the pipe, caused by a smaller-diameter or longer stinger section, helps the wave action of the pipe, and can increase the engine's performance. This, presumably, happens since the greater pressure creates a more dense, uniform medium for the waves to act on--waves travel better through dense, consistent mediums. For instance, you can hear a train from a long way away by putting you ear to the steel railroad track, which is much denser and more uniform than air. But it also causes the engine to run hotter, usually a very bad characteristic in two-strokes.

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/how-twostroke-expansion-chambers-work-and-why-you-should-care-3423.html

[Thorpe]

Electrolysis is a trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro. Went to pull the head studs out so they can check that surface too, even with the cylinder in the oven to expand it it was a bear getting the two that I managed to get out loose. I'm a pretty strong guy, but my shoulder was still screaming out in agony with this. I wanted to save all the studs, but I've twisted 3 off, haven't touched the last one. If it can't fit in a flat rate box with the studs on I'll weld a nut to them.

229635

Use penatrating oil and an impact gun... slow torque using a wrench is almost guaranteed to break them off, rattling them out with an impact is less likely to twist them off

[loganm]

Yeah, impact gun is the way to go, just can't really use one with the two nut method.

[Thorpe]

Line your nuts up...

[loganm]

They're flange nuts. No amount of lining them up will let me get on both. Even with two regular nuts I think it would spin them off.

As far as a silencer, DG is about the only option that isn't a fugly stock one correct? I could probably modify an fmf one to work but I want to upgrade to a DG header after I get the engine running right so may as well go DG.

[Scootertrash]

You do know they make a special tool for removing studs right?

If your girlfriend catches you lining up the nuts on a stud she might get p!$$ed

[oldskool83]

I had too many tacos.....My air fuel mixture is rich now. I think if I open my butt up some I will have jetting spot on.

Chinee food makes me lean....I have to drink some DR pepper. The mixure is just too salty

[oldskool83]

Gin and juice

[oldskool83]

Balls with buckskin mcnuggs scause

[oldskool83]

I got one more bottle of jack....WTF am I gonna do with it? If you got a problem there's one way we can solve it...it starts with my dick in your month

[loganm]

Special tools are for people that do this for a living and yuppies who don't know how to get trailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro done with what they have I am not removing studs on a daily basis.

[oldskool83]

You got your dress pulled up but you aint no slut

[oldskool83]

This b*tch is off the hook...Imma hit it all night long.

Special tools are for getting the job done correctly.

I follow you though nukka man kong IV.

The ocean is for shitting in also like diapers.............................LETS GO PAPA COCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

83 250Rs FTW 2 stroke stupid kids and PB blaster.

MERICA F150 trailprotrailprotrailprotrailprotrailpro!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!

[oldskool83]

Took me 18 pistons in modding this bike.........

[82 250r]

LOL!
oldskool...you're definitely oldskool!
Be careful, you'll offend the new generation

[loganm]

With how stuck these studs were I guarantee you a stud removing tool wouldn't have fared much better. If vice grips don't work, get bigger vice grips. If that doesn't work, get an actual vice. If that still doesn't work, add some heat into the mix. Fortunately I didn't have to use heat.

You're offending me with your bad attempts at humor oldskool.

[oldskool83]

I don't care and I'm not scard to say it. Do we need a freaking update every 5 mins when you touch this ATC. One picture and its prob some huge heap or turd mess like this..........

[loganm]

I got to agree with you there.

229678

That's before wheel spacers and before I put the engine back in. I'll stop shitposting nonsense until it runs again.
Before you say it I'm debating on taking 2-4" off the length of rear for final.

[John Tice]

I’ve been removing studs for other customers for many years now. Even with good stud pulling equipment will fail when the studs snap off with a good twist. Our favorite tool is a set of 4 ea., 6,8,10, & 12mm. Also the cylinder is mounted on a mandrel & chuck mounted in the lathe. This is the only way which I’ve found that the cylinder can be protected from damage


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/IMG_0405.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/IMG_0405.jpg.html)

The tools have 3 fingers which grab the length of the studs, the fingers cam in on the studs & if you’re careful the threads won’t be damaged. When all else fails & the studs snap off; a heli coil is in order.


http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/January%202015/P1011614_1.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/January%202015/P1011614_1.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5200126.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5200126.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5200125.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5200125.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5210135.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5210135.jpg.html)
This is the Hash type of stud puller; it will grab the stud but destroys the threads in the process.

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Album-2/PB280442.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Album-2/PB280442.jpg.html)
Installing Heli Coils

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Album-2/eb421c5f-68fe-488f-a62c-bcc3d2c0e48c.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Album-2/eb421c5f-68fe-488f-a62c-bcc3d2c0e48c.jpg.html)
Chasing threads

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/Album-2/095.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/Album-2/095.jpg.html)
Checking thread pitch with thread gauge

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5090090.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5090090.jpg.html)

http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p497/johntice1/P5090089.jpg (http://s1152.photobucket.com/user/johntice1/media/P5090089.jpg.html)
Pulling the locater dowels with a transfer punch & vice grips

John Tice
503-593-2908 Alternate 541-508-3944
www.smallenginemachineworks.com & www.nwsleeve.com
Turning Custom Cylinder Sleeves Since 1971
http://forums.everything2stroke.com/threads/49513-How-It-s-Done-Projects-around-the-Shop.com

:beer

[Scootertrash]

With how stuck these studs were I guarantee you a stud removing tool wouldn't have fared much better. If vice grips don't work, get bigger vice grips. If that doesn't work, get an actual vice. If that still doesn't work, add some heat into the mix. Fortunately I didn't have to use heat.

You're offending me with your bad attempts at humor oldskool.

You're offending the members of this site with your extremely bad and even more feeble attempts at being a mechanic. The only real tool in your shop is you.

The only guarantee with you is that the sh!t you say gets more and more stupid.

If you had used heat at the first sign of stubborn studs, it's entirely possible that you may not have had to spend so much time dicking around with them. A little Kroil helps sometimes too.

It's not electrolysis it's galvanic corrosion.


"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

229686

[cbx1170]

i jus read last 4 pages WTF? no silencer,,,,, get the faak out a here. Next.......

[Scootertrash]

Nah, It's all cool!!! I'll just fatten 'er up a bit!! Sounds badass!

[oldskool83]

well thats a 81-82 250R for starters....not even a 83R

[John Tice]

Call Hall Tool Co. Give them a call for your stud pullers
1-800-452-7755
They open 7am pacific

[John Tice]

After reading this for the last2 hours something else comes to mind. 1. Using a flap wheel in the bore is glaze breaking not honing. 2. When boring your cylinder; bore it upside down from the bottom. We don’t know if the top & bottom is parallel. The crankshaft must be perpendicular to the bore. 3. A ball hone is suggested? This isn’t a hone, it’s s glaze breaker. Use a real cylinder hone, WHY. Because with a glaze breaker you will never know if the cylinder is out of round or tapered.

Another suggestion; At BDC drill a ½” hole in the back of the piston just below the bottom ring aligning the hole with the boost port. I’m assuming that you’re running a reed valve engine. This modification will cause the fuel to flow through the bottom side of the piston, aiding in cooling the cylinder.

Why a cast piston from EBay? A forged piston is 4 times stronger than a cast OEM piston. How do I know? I’ve tested them each in my shop

JT

[loganm]

What are you responding to.....

[loganm]

I hope he wasn't taking my egg beater hone post seriously... Lol

[Dirtcrasher]

We'll he seems to be a serious man that is very professional. If I were you, I'd just send him everything......