Something is Definitely Wrong...

[250ES5984]

So, this weekend I and a bunch of buddies rode up to Hawk Pride Offroad in Tuscumbia, AL. They all have crawlers, so I rode with them on the rough stuff. The 250sx had a couple of trips to the bath house and down to the hill climb, but that's as far as it went. As we were leaving, I got on and began to kick it, starter doesn't work. The kicker turned the motor over twice, then the kicker seized. Couldn't get it to move. At all. So, we tried to push it off, but it seemed like something was wrong around the kicker shaft. We loaded her on the trailer, and that's where she is now.

With all of that said, has anyone had anything like that happen? One of my buddies said that his did something similar and that his clutches had come apart. I'm not the best mechanic in the world and am afraid to attempt to split the case on it because of my lack of knowledge.

Any suggestions, help, or advice would be greatly appreciated. Although im sure i cant have it fixed before, we also have a ride this coming weekend.

Thanks, Chandler.

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[loganm]

Not familiar with these motors. Can you pull the outer cover off? That should get you to the Kickstarter. Make sure you drain the oil first. And make sure you can get it off with the engine in the bike, or pull it first.

[oscarmayer]

time to start tearing into the clutch side. could have been a kicker spring or clutch or worse. will not know till you tear into it.
good luck.

[250ES5984]

How complex are the clutches in these? I don't want to tear into it and end up having it torn apart and not know what to do with it. And, can I pull that side without pulling the motor?

Thanks, Chandler.

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[Dirtcrasher]

Yes you can but the footpeg and brack lever may have to come off. I just tip the trike over to the left and don't have to drain it Especially if you take pictures and notes and have a free online manual to help you on how to take any portion of your machine apart. There one motor that has allot going on but they're not hard. No repairs are hard if you read ahead take notes and use the manual,

There is the main clutch, just like and manual clutch except your clutch opens via linkage (rather than a lever on the handlebars) in the motor connected to the manual clutch. That's why some people hold the gearshift up with their foot in any gear, punch it and drop the shift lever. Making it take off faster or wheelie; It's not a good thing to do for the drivetrain....

The other clutch is the centrifugal clutch where the shoes fly outwards at a certain RPM and at any point you stop it (1 thru 5 gears). The shoes stay in until the RPM's increase,There is a one way bearing in there that allows the starter to turn it over, or the kicker to turn it over. Yours sounds stuck but most likely it's worn out as well as the surface it rides on; sounds jammed and locked

Follow the book. get a piece of cardboard and make a crude drawing and push all the bolts thru the cardboard so you don't mess up the lengths of the case bolts.

The manual makes you a better mechanic and anytime I took a poop, I'd read how different things apart. Such as th 86/87 200X that have left hand threads and if they don't have the directions, they strip the crank. I have a good amount of stripped theads on that year model from all the meatballs using an impact driver right hand threads resulting in a stripped crank....

[250ES5984]

Thanks dirtcrasher. I have the clutches out. I couldn't get the kicker shaft out at first, and then , rotating it CCW, it slipped out. This is what I found. 228691

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that part of the case has broken off. Maybe I'm just thinking wrong. I don't know. 228692
228693

[atcmatt]

No from memory on my 250es it has that cutout also, pretty sure it's a passage for oil to flick through and lube up the kicker shaft and gears.

Matt

[barnett468]

You have the rare optional 2 piece kick starter shaft . Cases have to come apart.

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslists/honda-atc250sx-1985-f-usa-kick-starter_mediumhu0302155_9786.jpg

[250ES5984]

You have the rare optional 2 piece kick starter shaft . Cases have to come apart.

http://images.cmsnl.com/img/partslists/honda-atc250sx-1985-f-usa-kick-starter_mediumhu0302155_9786.jpg
I'm not sure I understand...

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[Dirtcrasher]

No, I don't either. A broken case anywhere will be very jagged. Was it full of good oil??

[loganm]

You made sure the motor isn't locked up correct? You don't need to make a cutout for the case bolts, just stick them in their holes when you go to put it back together and there should be 1/2"ish of the bolt sticking out, use the elimination to find where all the bolts go. A cutout is handy, but not necessary. Pics of the kickstarter shaft? Assemble everything but don't torque it down and upload a pic/video, that might help.

[250ES5984]

It was full of oil, but I haven't checked if it had shavings or pieces in it. The edges on the hole were extremely jagged, that's what made me think it was broken.

Loganm, I haven't taken the kicker assembly apart as of right now. Everything looks to be there and intact. As far as I can tell, the motor isn't locked. The clutches spin over freely, but I haven't torn into the other side to see if it will spin over. It seemed like it would turn over when we tried to pull it off, but I'm not 100% sure. I have a buddy that has a parts bike for sale that has a good bottom end, so I figure I'll just get his and go from there.

[barnett468]

I'm looking at your photo on a small screen but it looks like your kick starter shaft is broken, i guess that is not the case?

bigger photos are better.

[loganm]

With the outer case off you should be able to spin the crank over by hand. Pull the spark plug out if you need to, it shouldn't be that hard to turn. Don't go putting vice grips on the shaft or something stupid like that tho.

[250ES5984]

Well, I'm in for the night, but when I get off tomorrow I'm going to see if it has compression. If it will turn over at all.

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[sammiefish]

Could he be suggesting your rare kick shaft is broken in 2


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[250ES5984]

Could he be suggesting your rare kick shaft is broken in 2


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Probably, and I just didn't catch on. I'll have to take a closer look tomorrow.

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[oscarmayer]

notch is supposed to be there.
sometimes the spring can come off or slip. that would cause the kicker to bind and not turn. check the motor itself as mentioned. remove the plug and rotate the crank by hand. it should turn over w/o any issues. yes some resistance due to valves and such..
if engine turns over, reassemble with reseating the spring and it should work. I have seen the spring come off before. the little clip goes soft, then slips down the shaft a little causing the gear to float and wobble, then it binds when trying to kick and the spring pops out of place. get new clips, and reassembly and see if that helps.

[250ES5984]

Is there any place that has a picture of how it should be installed? I'm pretty sure any clips that were supposed to be there were missing. Plus, considering that mine was hung up, I don't know where I'm supposed to position the kicker or the spring for that matter. Thanks guys!

Chandler

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[honda4h]

just a suggestion i had a piece of starter gear fall into my stator engine had locked up when it got stuck in the stator and flywheel. easy check pull off the small cover and have a look

[oscarmayer]

in my sig is a link to download a factory repair manual. download the manual.

[250ES5984]

Downloaded the manual last night. Definitely helps a guy when he don't know what he's doing. I really think the best thing to do would be to put my top end on my buddies bottom end. I'm really good at taking things apart, not so good at putting them back together.....right. 😂

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[Dirtcrasher]

Thanks dirtcrasher. I have the clutches out. I couldn't get the kicker shaft out at first, and then , rotating it CCW, it slipped out. This is what I found. 228691

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that part of the case has broken off. Maybe I'm just thinking wrong. I don't know. 228692
228693

Does that hole that the kickershaft go in all gouged up?? And on the face of that, it looks scratched up and I bet it's missing the thrust washer thats in there. That hole is where I retrieve that washer if it's missing. And if you ever pull the 3 bolts on the let side in front of the swinger boot seal, everything falls in the motor.

Most guys can get the gears and spacers in but they don't know that when that shaft comes out, 1st gear thrust washer also falls in the gearbox. I use that aforementioned hole to retrieve that washer as well. Thats why people who don't use a manual or don't have very good skills; The swingarm comes off to work on your differential, change the boot etc etc. you have to remove the driveshaft to get in there. Just warning ya about that because allot of people take that cover off with the 3 bolts and either they fix it or give up. I taught a 14y.o. kid in Ohio how to fix this over an hour long phone call while his dad got everything back in there. They mailed me a xmas card :lol:

To get the kicker shaft back in, I usually barely get the back of that kicker shaft in, angle it a bit forwards and you have to turn and angle to like 2 o clock while the spring is in there, use the kicker to rotate PAST that steel strap and you kicker shaft will now pop in fully and that position holds the spring in the right amount of tension to return the kicker shaft.

Oh, and when you find the thrust washer, dry all the oil off the mating surfaces and put grease on it and it will stay on.

I had one guy with a blown 1st gear, from trying to take out that whole countershaft. I found THREE thrust washers in there; When he lost it, he bought new thrust washers and let the other float in the gearbox oil DOOGHT!!

My moneys on thrust washer missing (it's there so 1 rotating surface against a permanent flat it rests on doesn't gouge up. And then if it were ever run low on oil, stuff gets scarred up that way as well.....

Quote: "It was full of oil, but I haven't checked if it had shavings or pieces in it. The edges on the hole were extremely jagged, that's what made me think it was broken.

Loganm, I haven't taken the kicker assembly apart as of right now. Everything looks to be there and intact. As far as I can tell, the motor isn't locked. The clutches spin over freely, but I haven't torn into the other side to see if it will spin over. It seemed like it would turn over when we tried to pull it off, but I'm not 100% sure. I have a buddy that has a parts bike for sale that has a good bottom end, so I figure I'll just get his and go from there." end quote.
Now that the clutch is out and its all apart, slide the clutch housing over the shaft, it is a one way bearing. One way it locks and the other way it spins freely.

Sometimes holes like that are just cast in due to the difficulty of getting a rotating tool to clean it up. So, it's not necessarily broken and I know I get the crap out of the motor, thru a hole and behind the kickstarter...

Keep going, we'll figure it out for ya!

[250ES5984]

Thanks dirtcrasher. I didn't have time yesterday to work on it, and I don't know if I will today. If I do, it will be later tonight. I can't remember now, but I think the thrust washer came off with the kicker shaft when I removed it. Say I don't get it fixed, how complex is the process of putting my buddies bottom end in? I understand that I could use my piston by removing the wrist pin and putting mine in. Would I need to reset the valves? Neither me nor my dad know anything about the flywheel and timing chains as far as reinstalation. Like I said, I have the manual, but it seems like it doesn't give a whole lot of information, especially for someone who has never done this before. My little brother has a friend who's dad does it for a living, but he charges like $45/hour. Is that bad? I honestly in over my head....

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[ps2fixer]

$45 isn't a bad rate. For automotive it ranges around $40-120/hr depending if your going to a cheap shop or a dealership. Computer work runs around $100/hr too depending what exactly is being done.

Really to be honest, swapping a top end is most likely more work than finding your kick starter problem. The super simple run down is something like this:

Remove right cover (already done)
Remove primary clutch (front one)
Take top end cover off
Loosen cam gear
work the timing chain, cam gear, and cam shaft out
unbolt head
remove cyl/head

Reinstall with new gaskets in reverse order. The "correct" way would be to also measure all wear surfaces, replace out of spec bearings (or all of them), hone or bore the cyl and atleast get new rings unless piston+ rings are required. If you have a top end issue, then you'd have to repair/replace the effect parts as well.

I'm most likely missing some steps, purely going from memory and I don't do top end work very often.

Very first thing I'd suggest is make sure the engine rolls over, the actual crank. The front clutch bell housing will spin freely in one direction if nothing is binding in the transmission, if you turn it the opposite way, it will turn over the engine if the one way bearing is good. It is fairly common to have that bearing go bad, signs are the kick starter "slipping" when you kick it, and the whirling sound when turning off the machine. If it does not turn over at all, we know the source of the problem is related with the actual engine section of the whole unit. If it spins freely, then it must be something to do with the kick starter section, or the other side of the engine.

Also just to make sure things are clear, the electric start gears are on the left side of the engine and has it's own one way bearing just like the kick start side. If the electric start doesn't work as well, I'd suspect is wrong with the main engine part, something in the starter gears, primary clutch coming apart (hitting inside of the side cover), or worst case would be top end issues such as a stuck valve or the timing chain skipped far enough for the valve to hit the piston.

Hopefully I didn't bomb you with too much info. Let us know if the engine turns over freely and we'll work from there. Photos of the whole side of the engine would help too to have multi able eyes on the situation.

[250ES5984]

Well, it's locked up, and I'm pissed. I'm not even going to attempt to rebuild it myself. There's a guy in Pleasant Grove named RJ that has rebuilt my brothers race bike, and I'm thinking about trying to get him to do it. I'm gonna go ahead and put different clutches in it, and maybe more. You experts have any advice on engine upgrades for these things?

Another thing I can figure out is the fact that it wasn't running when it locked up, and was running fine right before.

Like before, thanks again for all of the input and advice guys. I really do appreciate it.
Thanks, Chandler.

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[Howdy]

There doesn't look to be any real bad damage in the 3 pics you posted. It looks pretty normal for this style motor. The kick starters are a lot easier to remove and replace than many other motors.

It's not good being locked up. You might get lucky though and find it is a simple fix ( not always cheap though ).
Howdy

[250ES5984]

..........

[250ES5984]

There doesn't look to be any real bad damage in the 3 pics you posted. It looks pretty normal for this style motor. The kick starters are a lot easier to remove and replace than many other motors.

It's not good being locked up. You might get lucky though and find it is a simple fix ( not always cheap though ).
Howdy
I'm hoping all it did was drop a valve, but, I don't know.